Hatonn in one of his sessions with Carla says that there is only mind and that's the mind of the creator. However Ra says that we are mind body spirit complexes and there exist more than one mind. What do you think about this inconsistency?
My interpretation of this is that, in the mind of the creator (consciousness, source) there exist multiplicity in unity, just as a prism, manifests the spectrum of colours in light, so are there many minds (infinite universes) within only one mind.
That's duality. Separation is the illusion.
(04-12-2018, 08:02 AM)Ronan Wrote: [ -> ]My interpretation of this is that, in the mind of the creator (consciousness, source) there exist multiplicity in unity, just as a prism, manifests the spectrum of colours in light, so are there many minds (infinite universes) within only one mind.
Yes I agree. Out of the One came the Many. Another way to check this would be through the Tree of Life. Out of the Limitless Light emerged the primordial point of Kether, the Crown, the Source, 0=1. This explanation falls in line with Ra’s. (Ra explains it in detail on the LOO.) From Kether, the emanations flow forth to create the universe. Another title for Kether is the “countenance that beheld not countenance”.
In the psyche of man, Kether corresponds to the Yechidah, the Divine Spark, which is our deepest and truest essence, the One Creator. Our mind is the Creator’s mind. There is only one mind, one consciousness here and it is the One Infinite. We now experience an illusion of separation and we seemingly have separate minds. But if you continue going deep enough, you will reach the collective unconscious mind of mankind. The mind that we all share.
As we continue to evolve, areas that were unconscious to our conscious minds become conscious. Until, we return to Source, Infinity (Which Ra defines as Unity), Eternity.
(Kind of off topic, but the other day while contemplating I had an insight and saw a vast ocean with forms rising upon the surface. The forms are not separate from the ocean, they are apart of the ocean, and to the Great Ocean they shall return.)
Free will is the first distortion in creation. If we have free will we have individual minds
Individual consciousness (that is, your consciousness, my consciousness, etc.) is simply the narrowing of the Creator's attention, exclusively, into a particular thought form. That thought form is the set of attributes that make you "you", including every aspect of your body, beliefs, instincts, mental processes - all of it is a set of concepts through which Creator's awareness looks at Itself, also as reflected in other thought-forms.
A good metaphor is being the player of a first-person video game, where you are looking through a single character's eyes; but as the player, you are surrounded by screens on which you're also looking through every other character's eyes - and through the "eyes" (or, more accurately, the experience) of the grass, the trees, the rocks, the wind, the planets, etc. And you're able to experience "being" each of those, simultaneously - because you are the Creator, and not a human with human limitations.
There is nothing in Creation apart from the Creator's Awareness, and the Thought Forms through which it chooses to perceive itself.
All the thought forms exist - where? In the Creator's mind.
Therefore your mind is simply a subset of the Creator's One Mind, infinite and indivisible.
This is why telepathy, etc. exist. This is why - and this is neat - if you try, you can actually get a sense of what it's like to perceive yourself from the Logos' perspective.
All boundaries are illusory, permeable, made of thought-forms in the One.
// I am Ra. As in all distortions, the source is the limit of the viewpoint.//. 99.5
It is simply a matter of perspective. You will find this kind of inconsistency across Confederation messaging, because (A) they are coming from a very different ontological and phenomenological experience than we are (in other words, their experience is full of "things" that we can't conceive of, and similarly, ours is full of "things" they at least have trouble reckoning with), and (B) terms like "mind" aren't even as concrete as we think they are using them in exactly the sense we normally use them. For example: does mind have a material basis? If not, does it exist? Is it an illusion? Is it an epiphenomenon of evolutionary and biological imperatives? Even modern psychology, philosophy, and neuroscience plays fast and loose with mind -- the issue is not whether it IS this or IS that, but what looking at it LIKE this or LIKE that can usefully tell us about this mystery. We should afford the Confederation the same flexibility to go beyond our A=A logical definitions! In fact, I'm not sure how much it helps to reconcile this logically. It might be more spiritually operative to instead abide within the inconsistency, and let it draw us to the deeper questions.
Great question though, I love Hatonn!
Approaching the matter indirectly, asking such a question sometimes is pretext to asking, how can my individual existence be legitimate if it's just a temporary form that will soon vaporize? If I have free will, am I not distinct from this silly-seeming game?
One can explore this along various lines. I would argue that the most satisfying avenue is to explore this in terms of relationship, not fact. So, you as a fact will surely fade away and be forgotten over some extended period of time, just as if you had never existed. On the other hand, you as an entity exist in this moment as a sort of player within the matrices of Densities, energy centers and other models of levels of consciousness, going all the back to the Infinite Source. The lasting element within your being, I would aver, is the relationships you develope with these levels of consciousness to which you are heir. The more "you" become transparent to and collaborative with the various levels of self, the more resonant will become your being.
Ergo, the real answer to this line of inquiry has little to do with what you think or type about it. It has to do with the work you do to become more resonant with deeper levels of relational beingness. Or, put another way, it has to do with mastering your fuller being the way a gymnast masters her body: fluidly, skillfully participating as responses occur to arising catalyst.
peregrine Wrote:So, you as a fact will surely fade away and be forgotten over some extended period of time, just as if you had never existed.
Each moment of each of our existences exists eternally, simultaneously, with all other moments, in perpetuity. Our Larger Self contains all of them, and because time is an illusion, each moment affects every other moment, and they together make up the Whole Self.
The English language is not well equipped to discuss the sort of topics that Carla was channeling for us to learn about. A lot of apparent paradoxes and inconsistencies can occur because of this. According to my understanding, the idea that everything which exists is the Mind of the Creator is, in a sense, another way of speaking about what is known as the principle of Mentalism within the Hermetic Tradition. Essentially, we're all living within a kind of dream--everything we experience is only the idea of such a thing, an imaginary construct within the the imagination of the one universal dreamer, the One Infinite Creator.
I remember reading (I think) in the Seth Material about the concept of people having multiple dreams at once and, when awaking, their minds process the memories of those concurrent dreams by quickly putting them in a sequential order so that the person waking up feels as though they just had many dreams occur one after another very rapidly, right before they woke up. Seth explained that contemplating this concept will lead to a higher understanding of the true nature of reality. I believe we ourselves resemble protagonists in a series of multiple dreams all being experienced at once by a higher consciousness, in a universal sense that would be God, but in a more localized understanding could also be the Higher Self experiencing a multitude of 'lower' selves all within contemporaneous incarnations.
Our Higher Selves undoubtedly would find themselves in the same kind of situation themselves, being a lower state of some sort of Higher-higher Self. This pattern of selves being aspects of higher selves will continue, according to my humble understanding, forever, making an infinite fractal/holographic image culminating ultimately into the Infinite Universal Self, the Creator, the Is-ness, experiencing everything through everything in every way, everywhere.
(04-12-2018, 03:36 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]peregrine Wrote:So, you as a fact will surely fade away and be forgotten over some extended period of time, just as if you had never existed.
Each moment of each of our existences exists eternally, simultaneously, with all other moments, in perpetuity. Our Larger Self contains all of them, and because time is an illusion, each moment affects every other moment, and they together make up the Whole Self.
This may be so in time/space and it may be evident to a denizen of such, but I was speaking above about something else. From the point of view the experience of space/time. from the point of view of your body, I believe what I said to be correct. The power of the body's perspective ought not be underestimated, and it won't necessary go along with an idea just because your mind-stuff favors it.
Anyhow, beyond that small point, I'm not sure about this "each moment of each existence" business. I favor the idea that our Larger Self is a distillation of all that jazz, not a verbatim catalogue.
Oh, by the way, isn't every monkey bipedal?
(04-12-2018, 09:45 AM)buket Wrote: [ -> ]Free will is the first distortion in creation. If we have free will we have individual minds
It's all about context, free will is the first distortion of anything, whether Creation or you. So, each of those have a common will that comes to be made into focus relative to focus, this by second distortion which is love, because love is colorful in its unity that is will, but only by making relative will to itself.
Being many does not offer to be alone versus others, it offers to be what others are in your conditions of self-realization of what everything is. And there's a way that there's this, a way without paradox we could say. That you are experiencing yourself as Logos from within a co-Logos in the relation that you have is part of your free will, that you'd have a standalone mind in the thought of this is a paradoxical thought that is not how you can manifest to be what you are as you have willed it here and now. So I think it's all about how it doesn't deny your free will, it remains there.
(04-12-2018, 03:36 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ] (04-12-2018, 08:32 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, by the way, isn't every monkey bipedal?
That made me lol. You should maybe take it within the context of his username.
(04-12-2018, 08:32 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ] (04-12-2018, 03:36 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]peregrine Wrote:So, you as a fact will surely fade away and be forgotten over some extended period of time, just as if you had never existed.
Each moment of each of our existences exists eternally, simultaneously, with all other moments, in perpetuity. Our Larger Self contains all of them, and because time is an illusion, each moment affects every other moment, and they together make up the Whole Self.
This may be so in time/space and it may be evident to a denizen of such, but I was speaking above about something else. From the point of view the experience of space/time. from the point of view of your body, I believe what I said to be correct. The power of the body's perspective ought not be underestimated, and it won't necessary go along with an idea just because your mind-stuff favors it.
Anyhow, beyond that small point, I'm not sure about this "each moment of each existence" business. I favor the idea that our Larger Self is a distillation of all that jazz, not a verbatim catalogue.
It's all about where one draws the boundary, isn't it? Maybe like concentric circles - distillation in the middle, totality of experience around the fringes.
peregrine Wrote:Oh, by the way, isn't every monkey bipedal?
Exclusively bipedal? No, I don't think so - just this one. Wikipedia tells me that:
Wikipedia Wrote:All primates possess some bipedal ability, though most species primarily use quadrupedal locomotion on land.
(04-12-2018, 08:32 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, by the way, isn't every monkey bipedal?
I think you'll find that the majority of monkeys , when traversing flat terrain, will employ their fore-limbs. A monkey who only used the hind-limbs to move about would surely be an
upstanding citizen of the monkey realm.
(04-12-2018, 07:56 AM)buket Wrote: [ -> ]Hatonn in one of his sessions with Carla says that there is only mind and that's the mind of the creator. However Ra says that we are mind body spirit complexes and there exist more than one mind. What do you think about this inconsistency?
It's not an inconsistency. All we are living in a Thought, the Original Thought. This is the thought of the Infinite Creator. The densities, the bodies of the entities, etc. are part of this thought. In the really this is a paradox. To the macrocosm there is only Oneness, Unity, etc. To us (microcosm) there is so many things (although all this be illusions). Finite/infinite. It's just a question of point of view.
(04-12-2018, 09:27 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]It's all about where one draws the boundary, isn't it? Maybe like concentric circles - distillation in the middle, totality of experience around the fringes.
Yeah? Maybe. I guess we'll see when we get there.....but by then I expect we'll have forgotten what the question was, dang it!
Wikipedia Wrote:All primates possess some bipedal ability, though most species primarily use quadrupedal locomotion on land.
Hold on a minute. Who said anything about locomotion? You're moving the goal post! Bipedal means "two legs." When I see a monkey, I usually see two legs (among various other things.) If one were not above stealing a bad pun, one could say that to call them anything but bipedal would not be
upstanding.
(04-12-2018, 08:56 PM)Elros Wrote: [ -> ]That made me lol.
Try to be more serious, Elros (LOL)
(04-13-2018, 02:57 AM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]Hold on a minute. Who said anything about locomotion? You're moving the goal post! Bipedal means "two legs." When I see a monkey, I usually see two legs (among various other things.) If one were not above stealing a bad pun, one could say that to call them anything but bipedal would not be upstanding.
If you really want to dig in to the language, monkeys are not bipedal, but actually quadrumanous. It's not a matter of two legs, but rather, four arms.
(04-13-2018, 06:17 AM)Agua Wrote: [ -> ] (04-12-2018, 09:45 AM)buket Wrote: [ -> ]Free will is the first distortion in creation. If we have free will we have individual minds
You actually gave the best answer to yourself already 
It should be noted, in my opinion, that discussing and pondering topics such as "oneness" can only serve as an "amusement", not more.
It is crucial to realize, that intellectual understanding of one-ness is no umderstanding of oneness, it is non-understanding!
Whatever you can intellectually ponder concerning oneness has absolutely nothing to do with oneness!
It doesnt even bring you closer to an understanding, it actually moves you further away from understanding!
I guess its worth keeping this in mind
Isn't that just intellectual rejection of the intellectual mind of the intellectual mind?
(04-13-2018, 03:42 AM)MangusKhan Wrote: [ -> ]If you really want to dig in to the language, monkeys are not bipedal, but actually quadrumanous. It's not a matter of two legs, but rather, four arms.
I see two legs, you see four arms....if we stitch it all together we might get a Hindu deity out of it. Have you seen any monkeys with wings? I hear those are way cool!
True story, peregrine. I'm working on getting my wings back, even as we speak!
Getting back to the original question, it occurs to me that it may be helpful to define what a thought-form is, vs. the Creator's Awareness or Presence.
A thought-form is like a computer circuit. It defines pathways through which current may flow. It constrains electrical current in particular, specific ways. And by imposing these limitations upon it, the circuit also creates possibilities of something more complex and interesting and useful being produced.
However, without electrical current flowing through it, a circuit is a dead, lifeless thing.
This is exactly what everything we can see, touch, or think about is: a thought-form, a concept, a set of rules defining how light may or may not flow through it. Concepts in the Creator's mind.
Without the Creator's presence in it, it is dead - like a costume with no one inside it.
When we are thinking about ourselves in terms of our attributes rather than our Consciousness, we are describing the layered thought-forms that comprise us. Q'uo calls it "the personality husk" - a husk is a dead thing, unless there is something living inside it. The only living thing is the Creator's awareness, which animates the husk and plays the game of allowing Itself to perceive itself as if it were the single husk, rather than All That Is.
Here's a nice explanation of this from Q'uo,
http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._0904.aspx :
Quo Wrote:It is peculiarly difficult to talk about being, especially because of the fact that we are talking about being in such a way as to penetrate the outer husk of what your peoples consider it to be. So let us look at this just a bit.
When this instrument was five years old, her mother asked her, “Who are you?” This instrument’s mother was a born teacher and enjoyed working with her very intelligent child before schoolteachers got their hands upon her mind. She wanted to explore the world through this young child’s eyes and so she asked the one known as Carla, “Who are you?” and asked her to write down her thoughts. This instrument as a five-year-old industriously sat down and with her childish printing, which is all she had learned up to that point, wrote down that she was a girl and a daughter; that she was a member of society and a citizen of the world, and that she was a child of the Creator.
This is the heart of what we mean by saying that we would like you to penetrate through the outer layers or the husks of what it is to be. You are many things. You wear many masks. And even the deeper ways of being have mask-like components. From the standpoint of waking reality it is very difficult to gain a direct apprehension of your own presence. But we assure you that the part of you that is in flesh and is embodied upon Planet Earth is just the tip of the iceberg, if you will, of who you are.
As a body, mind and spirit dwelling in flesh, you are a doorway through which you have been able to bring, out of all that you are, a little suitcase-full of personality traits, gifts and limitations, which you have chosen very carefully and with exquisite thought. You wished to bring those gifts that you would use to offer your outer service. As well, you wished to bring blockages and limitations that you felt would enable you to be confused in certain helpful ways that would lead you to question your suffering. For indeed, the blockages and limitations are brought through specifically in order to offer you a catalyst, and therefore, what you normally conceive of as suffering, that would bring you face to face with those parts of yourself that you have not yet, in your own estimation, brought into perfect balance.
You are a spark of the Creator. We can only describe this to you in terms of a hologram. You are not part of the Creator. You are the Creator. But you are a spark of that Creator that, from the beginning of this creation, has been on its own journey, doing its own observation and research, culling out for yourself from all of the information and feelings that you have been through the winnowed treasure and harvest of your experience thus far.
You come to this present moment having come through experience after experience, incarnation upon incarnation. You have been through many worlds. You have been all things. And in that part of yourself that is not limited by flesh, you are everything you ever were and everything that you ever will be, all rolled up into the present moment, this precise point at which you are vibrating and experiencing the now. That is the extent of being you. You are all things.
Notice in particular how Quo says "you are not a part of the Creator; you are the Creator". That took me some years to finally understand. I hope I was able to explain it sufficiently well in my earlier post, with the video game metaphor.
(04-14-2018, 10:22 AM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]True story, peregrine. I'm working on getting my wings back, even as we speak!
Whither did they fly away? And if they're just another thought-form, can you think them back again? Just wondering.
As regards your larger thesis, how does Mystery come into play? And what drives this thing? Why does it not become a stagnant peep-show?
(04-14-2018, 12:39 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2018, 10:22 AM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]True story, peregrine. I'm working on getting my wings back, even as we speak!
Whither did they fly away? And if they're just another thought-form, can you think them back again? Just wondering.
Way too long a story,
brother sister. And within the thought-form of the Father's rules, wings are earned, not thunk into being.
\peregrine Wrote:As regards your larger thesis, how does Mystery come into play? And what drives this thing? Why does it not become a stagnant peep-show?
Mystery is the Creator, the Creator's nature apart from the Creation, and the world the Creator inhabits.
Apart from the Creator's Presence/Awareness, everything else is hypothetically comprehensible. But that Presence is outside of the thought-form sandbox we're all playing in; it's outside all of the concepts which define
our "reality". Therefore we can't use any of the concepts we encounter to comprehend that Presence, which sages have called "pure Being", beyond all concepts. That is why all "begins and ends in Mystery" because it all begins and ends in the Creator.
And the answers to your other questions are deeply buried within that Mystery.
(04-14-2018, 12:51 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]Mystery is the Creator, the Creator's nature apart from the Creation, and the world the Creator inhabits.
Apart from the Creator's Presence/Awareness, everything else is hypothetically comprehensible. But that Presence is outside of the thought-form sandbox we're all playing in; it's outside all of the concepts which define our "reality". Therefore we can't use any of the concepts we encounter to comprehend that Presence, which sages have called "pure Being", beyond all concepts. That is why all "begins and ends in Mystery" because it all begins and ends in the Creator.
And the answers to your other questions are deeply buried within that Mystery.
Here's the thing, you offer a model of Infinite Creation which emphasizes mechanics. You talk about mirrors reflecting mirrors, thought forms posing as identities, etc. You allow mystery as being something mysterious you can't say much about and can't interact with, and yet I still feel a lifelessness to your model. Where's the love? Where's the upward spiraling of energy? Where's the poetry?
Okay, so, maybe it's my personal bias, but I say, mechanics sans poetry is heartless and, therefore, dead. Am I wrong?
You are a collective of 37 trillion single cellular organisms, each of which have their own mind at their level.
Yet you have your own mind, a unified mind of the minds of 37 trillion single cellular organisms.
Each of those single cellular bacteria have their own existence. Yet, in addition to that, they have a unified existence, which manifests as you. Those two existences are there at the same time and one doesnt happen without the other.
Its the same with the creator and every single entity that is part of it, including readers of this forum, you, and the 37 trillion bacteria that is you.
(04-15-2018, 03:50 AM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]Here's the thing, you offer a model of Infinite Creation which emphasizes mechanics. You talk about mirrors reflecting mirrors, thought forms posing as identities, etc. You allow mystery as being something mysterious you can't say much about and can't interact with, and yet I still feel a lifelessness to your model. Where's the love? Where's the upward spiraling of energy? Where's the poetry?
Okay, so, maybe it's my personal bias, but I say, mechanics sans poetry is heartless and, therefore, dead. Am I wrong?
I do not see it as a thesis that I'm either advancing or defending - rather, it is the best understanding/insight into the Self-Creation-Creator relationship that I have personally reached, and therefore how I feel about it, to me, has nothing to do with whether or not that is how things are in the reality in which we find ourselves.
That aside, I don't see it as mechanical at all. Sure, there are layers upon layers upon layers of concepts defining the awe-inspiring complexity of Creation - but every single one of them is imbued with the Mystery of the Creator's conscious presence, guiding, shaping, balancing, creating. Every thought-form is imbued with consciousness! That is why you can talk to the Earth, the Sun, even your throat chakra.
(By the way, if you want to understand any aspect of your physical, emotional, mental or spiritual functioning (or dysfunction), talk to your throat chakra. You will get amazingly accurate and detailed information.)
So I think it's a misunderstanding of what I'm describing, possibly due to the limitation of my words. The thought-form world is inexhaustibly complex and fascinating; but ultimately we are pulled to seek the Creator, the source of all forms who is beyond all forms, represented within Creation by the original thought-form: Logos/Love. But, as Q'uo says, we are all free to discard anything that does not resonate with us.
BTW I've talked to my subconscious mind. There are many possibilities for cooperation. Ra also talked about it.