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Why would the Creator elect to create suffering for ITself? As an Infinite Creator, with Infinite power, might there not at least have been an "as efficient path" to offer ITself, if not a better one, other than torturing us as ITself through ITself?

And please, if the conversation is of interest, may we possibly leave out the whole business of the "Infinity Concept" as a ground rule, in that it has the ability to derail every single conversation ever posed on B4th, much less the universe, given that the concept reduces everything to nihilism as a pat answer manufactured for everything, wherein in what I propose it is humorously a restricted definition of infinity to begin with, where everything is possible, including restrictions, i.e. laws.

As a disclaimer offered in humor, I am not proposing that were I a Freudian Spirituo-Psychoanalyst that I would question if the Creator had a tendency towards masochist behavior, but it does seem that within the bubble of the illusion that it appears to will ITself to suffer as a learning tool.

Is suffering truly so necessary as catalyst? Might catalyst have been offered to ITself without the need of suffering as part of it's definition?
Suffering is only suffering until the sufferer has the profound realization that it's a divine gift. Then, it becomes like a stairstep to higher consciousness. At that point, it's important to note that suffering is an illusion. It has no depth other than what you give it. In and of itself, it is not suffering at all. And you no longer define yourself as one who suffers. Look up what the Buddha had to say about suffering. Very relevant information there. Smile

This paragraph from this Q'uo session reveals the value of suffering to the Creator/us.

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/2008/2008_0210_04.aspx

"In a way, the beauty of this density is its very sharpness of suffering and difficulty. For the extremely harsh conditions create ways in which one may change one’s polarity or emphasize one’s polarity very quickly, indeed, almost instantaneously. You may do in fifty years, or twenty years, or even five years that which it would take us a million years to do, because of the fact that we see the whole picture. We understand all that there is to understand in terms of the Creator’s plan for us. Therefore, it is an open-book test, and that which we learn, we learn in painfully slow increments, gradually refining, and refining again, our choice."

I love the comparison to the open book test vs the closed book test. It makes it very easy for me to understand. Smile

We know that since we are the Creator, the Creator learns through our experience. Since the Creator learns through experience and uses that gained experience to shape further creations, it makes sense that when we (as a Whole) discovered that suffering was an efficient way to gain experience behind a veil, we would employ that method. If you think "But look at all the pain suffering brings to humanity! It's a horrible thing." Remember that suffering is only suffering to the one who defines themselves as a sufferer.
Ra states and I quote:

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. This statement is substantially correct. If you will penetrate the nature of the first distortion in its application of self knowing self, you may begin to distinguish the hallmark of an Infinite Creator, variety. Were there no potentials for misunderstanding and, therefore, understanding, there would be no experience.

The forgetting is necessary so that in remembering you know more about yourself than you did before.

This is where suffering arises, when the grand picture is not seen.
(10-05-2010, 11:49 AM)Aaron Wrote: [ -> ]Suffering is only suffering until the sufferer has the profound realization that it's a divine gift. Then, it becomes like a stairstep to higher consciousness. At that point, it's important to note that suffering is an illusion. It has no depth other than what you give it. In and of itself, it is not suffering at all. And you no longer define yourself as one who suffers. Look up what the Buddha had to say about suffering. Very relevant information there. Smile

... If you think "But look at all the pain suffering brings to humanity! It's a horrible thing." Remember that suffering is only suffering to the one who defines themselves as a sufferer.

Excellent answers and references Aaron. Thank you as well LSD. But, might even we with our limited knowledge and understanding not imagine a scenario wherein catalyst might be offered, but one with the negation of suffering as a requisite of same? You see, within the bubble of the illusion already created, in which suffering is defined as a part of catalyst, we may, as if without choice, need necessitate the understanding of suffering as part of its reason for being. Is it possible to imagine it without being? If it is, is it possible to imagine catalyst offered irrespectively as efficiently? In the context to the question, even Quo is answering from within the bubble of it (suffering) already being created. Certainly sufferings is a wonderful catalyst. Certainly it offers itself as a means for an entity to crystallize itself towards expansion of ITself as the Infinite Creator as a result. But the real question is, is it absolutely necessary as part of the process towards crystallization?

Let me change or refine the question, if not stand it on its head. Is it we in fact, as the Creator, who have in fact decided and elected to create suffering through the faculty of Free Will? If so, can we negate it, and not necessarily in the world, but most certainly in our lives, and crystallize in any event as efficiently? And by this I don't mean negate the pain that already exists, as in the Buddhist sense that I feel nothing in the mouth of the lion that is devouring me. I mean, there is no lion, replete with the blood letting and fangs accompanied with same. May we elect to live our lives on an altogether different level through this very act of Free Will by in fact manipulating the energies as the adept so effectively wherein in fact suffering as a condition and as an experience becomes minimized, if not negated, as in neutralized, this in fact, not just mind?

Are we is the creator or are we aint? If we is the creator, are we aint so by the very fact that we are the creator that has taken it upon itself to believe we must suffer? If so, may we suspend same? As the adept crystallized, may we therefore offer ourselves the unmitigated opportunity to un-suffer?

If not, "Then If Loving You ( un-suffering) Is Wrong I Don't Wanna Be Right" Cool
performed most notably by Luther Ingram

~ Q ~
Every concept that irks a person or makes them feel good, are all affecting that person inasmuch as their perspective defines and allows said concepts to affect them. Change your perspective on any concept, and you change the effect it has on your mind/body/spirit.

With a certain perspective, one can sit down to eat a gourmet meal (while being very hungry), and feel completely ashamed of themselves for eating it because they are mentally occupied with the homeless man they gave 5 bucks to down the street, and how regardless of the gift they gave, the homeless man goes on being homeless. There is a certain twist to this perspective-example that I find to be quite absurd and foolish...and that is a product/effect of my own perspective.

Look at creation how ever you so please. Know that there are infinite perspectives, and in those infinite perspectives, everything you ever had a problem with conceptually/emotionally is but one way to look at it all. A good exercise I might offer is this...

Close your eyes and imagine in your mind's eye that you are visually seeing the photons that constitute your reality around you. Imagine how on that level, they are simply vibrating at different speeds, and are not the vibration OF emotions/thoughts/feelings, and instead are just particles of light which are vibrating in order to provide a background substance for things like emotions to exist, as well as all the physical matter we like to call "stuff". Now imagine that as you are seeing these photons vibrating, that you are now seeing the same thing but in the circumstance of someone killing another human being out of the distortion towards revenge. You are still seeing particles of light, which are now twinkling with different degrees of brightness and vibration. Nothing else has changed on that level has it? The photons are simply vibrating at different speeds. You are zoomed in too far to sense things like emotion and thoughts. All you see is light. This is just one other perspective in itself.
(10-05-2010, 12:36 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]Are we is the creator or are we aint? If we is the creator, are we aint so by the very fact that we are the creator that has taken it upon itself to believe we must suffer? If so, may we suspend same? As the adept crystallized, may we therefore offer ourselves the unmitigated opportunity to un-suffer?

Of course you can choose to experience a realm without suffering. It is not so much a question of whether or not you can choose this....I believe the more appropriate question for you would be, why have I chosen to incarnate in a world where the concept of suffering is quite vivid and constantly available to experience?
(10-05-2010, 12:36 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]Certainly sufferings is a wonderful catalyst. Certainly it offers itself as a means for an entity to crystallize itself towards expansion of ITself as the Infinite Creator as a result. But the real question is, is it absolutely necessary as part of the process towards crystallization?

Let me change or refine the question, if not stand it on its head. Is it we in fact, as the Creator, who have in fact decided and elected to create suffering through the faculty of Free Will?

Given there are billions of suns in the galaxy and who-knows-how-many gazillions of galaxies, I posit that suffering is not “absolutely necessary.” It is a characteristic of the Earth Life School (ELS). Before life the YOU of Itself chose this school, probably because you saw the value in the suffering here. If you had not seen the value, you probably would have picked a different planet to go to school on, or a different galaxy, where suffering was minimized. (And spiritual evolution takes longer.)

Quote: If so, can we negate it, and not necessarily in the world, but most certainly in our lives, and crystallize in any event as efficiently?

Suffering does seem to be a fundamental characteristic of the Earth Life School (see Tarot cards Fool, Strength, Temperance, Devil and Tower). We are constrained in our Free Will by these archetype patterns laid down by the Galaxy, as modified by our Sun.

That said, the Adept has quite powerful ways to do Reality Creation (even in the ELS) and probably could avoid much suffering. Or, knowing the pre-birth decision to come here specifically, could choose to honor the Self, and its pre-birth decision, and accept that the suffering is of a purpose and for the Self’s Greater Spiritual development. It sure would be a sad thing to actively Reality Create peace in one's lifetime, only to discover in the post-life review that it undid the entire lesson plan for that lifetime.

Card 6 (The Lovers) is about Choice. The choice to embrace the circumstances of the ELS and its illusions to further Spiritual Growth or to further Wealth and Comfort (the two women in the card). The Adept can go either way.

Choose carefully.
Quantum, all your small questions seem to harmonize into one that asks "Can we, as the Creator, create a third density veiled experience which does not employ suffering as a method of moving upwards in the spiral of consciousness?"

If that's not the concept you intended to get at, let me know. I know from experience that when one consciously begins to co-create (positively, and I'll always be speaking positively unless otherwise noted lol), one is vibrating in both third and fourth density (i.e. an "enlightened" person who is still primarily aware of third density and will remain so until deah). Thus, that person begins to consciously create a life experience devoid of suffering, and also begins to manifest 4th density awareness on earth. They are one and the same. If the vast majority of people on earth were therefore enlightened, 4th density consciousness would be the primary consciousness on earth. You could say the earth would be in 4th density at that point. There would be no sufferering manifested then. So my point there is that from within incarnation, if an experience without suffering is created, it leads to movement up the spiral of consciousness into 4th density awareness. Therefore suffering has played its part in the game. Creating an experience without suffering does not change the playing field of third density to remove suffering and replace it with an equally valid tool.

To me, it seems the rules of the game are set up in a specific way on this planet. From our state of being in incarnation, co-creation leads to progress, rather than a changing of the rules of the game. Other planets may be different, but it's incredibly hard to know, or understand, those things while here in 3rd density in incarnation. Understanding of the broader picture doesn't have a place here in 3rd density. it might also be helpful to remember that suffering is part of the game of this planet because Lucifer offered it.

To address your question from a different slant: "Is it possible, within incarnation, to decide as one or in a very harmonized way, to remove suffering from our experience and replace it with a tool just as efficient?" I would say that that would be an action or property of 4th density. By the time we're able to consciously co-create in a harmonized way, we're in 4th density. So, suffering has it's place here in this planetary game, and he rules of the game cannot be changed while we're playing it, to sum it all up hahaha!
(10-05-2010, 12:49 PM)Turtle Wrote: [ -> ]Close your eyes and imagine in your mind's eye that you are visually seeing the photons that constitute your reality around you. Imagine how on that level, they are simply vibrating at different speeds, and are not the vibration OF emotions/thoughts/feelings, and instead are just particles of light which are vibrating in order to provide a background substance for things like emotions to exist, as well as all the physical matter we like to call "stuff". Now imagine that as you are seeing these photons vibrating, that you are now seeing the same thing but in the circumstance of someone killing another human being out of the distortion towards revenge. You are still seeing particles of light, which are now twinkling with different degrees of brightness and vibration. Nothing else has changed on that level has it? The photons are simply vibrating at different speeds. You are zoomed in too far to sense things like emotion and thoughts. All you see is light. This is just one other perspective in itself.
Great stuff again Turtle. Thank you. I too have had very similar considerations regarding the physicality of it all against the backdrop of light.

(10-05-2010, 12:59 PM)ricdaw Wrote: [ -> ]Of course you can choose to experience a realm without suffering. It is not so much a question of whether or not you can choose this....I believe the more appropriate question for you would be, why have I chosen to incarnate in a world where the concept of suffering is quite vivid and constantly available to experience?
(10-05-2010, 12:59 PM)ricdaw Wrote: [ -> ]Suffering does seem to be a fundamental characteristic of the Earth Life School (see Tarot cards Fool, Strength, Temperance, Devil and Tower). We are constrained in our Free Will by these archetype patterns laid down by the Galaxy, as modified by our Sun.
Agreed. I would ask however if we as the adept nearing 4D, or perhaps wandering from 5D or 6D, may minimize it as part of our lives and as one of the experiences towards refining/manipulating/creating ones life experience as part of breaking the illusion if you will?
(10-05-2010, 12:59 PM)ricdaw Wrote: [ -> ]That said, the Adept has quite powerful ways to do Reality Creation (even in the ELS) and probably could avoid much suffering.
I am most keen to hear more of your sentiments as regards this if you are interested in revealing more. I will confess that this is one of the more titillating of points I have been experimenting with for quite a long stretch of my own life experience and is perhaps a most powerful and elegant tool. It resonates with me. Humorously it reads as quite profound and deep. Simplified to its extreme, it may simply be read as "Playing In The Fields Of The Lord" with ones life in the manner one would more like to live it.

(10-05-2010, 01:03 PM)Aaron Wrote: [ -> ]Quantum, all your small questions seem to harmonize into one that asks "Can we, as the Creator, create a third density veiled experience which does not employ suffering as a method of moving upwards in the spiral of consciousness?"[
Yes, you are extremely on target Aaron.
'Aaron Wrote:..I know from experience that when one consciously begins to co-create...one is vibrating in both third and fourth density (i.e. an "enlightened" person who is still primarily aware of third density and will remain so until death). Thus, that person begins to consciously create a life experience devoid of suffering, and also begins to manifest 4th density awareness on earth. They are one and the same. If the vast majority of people on earth were therefore enlightened, 4th density consciousness would be the primary consciousness on earth. You could say the earth would be in 4th density at that point. There would be no suffering manifested then. So my point there is that from within incarnation, if an experience without suffering is created, it leads to movement up the spiral of consciousness into 4th density awareness.
I like it very much. If you would Aaron, are there references from Ra that you are pulling from or are these intuitive responses? If from references I would be appreciative if you might share them. If not, do go on in any event.

Suffering very obviously has its place here as seen by its place here. I feel intuitively that manipulating the lack of suffering may play as legitimate a role as does suffering itself. In other words, what ever gets you there gets you there. Such a path (the reduction of suffering) might be seen, particularly by one such as myself, as a bit more elegant, but certainly not more valid. Each to their own. It requires however a great deal of participation into the task of attempting not to make a mess of things to begin with which necessitates the suffering as a learning vehicle as a result. In other words smile alot, and be as nice as is often as possible, but also be wiling to defend one self and fight if necessary if you love yourself as much. Hopefully you don't love yourself too much in this regard less you may get caught up in fighting too much by loving yourself more than the other. There is also a time to simply walk away and blow out candles, as it were, as a most loving gift to the other who is unrelentingly invested into the fight. Like the man on a tightwire in the circus of life, it is a delicate balancing act filled with spectacle, balloons, music, mayhem, and clowns all about. Ra and Jesus pretty well summed up these sentiments on love far better than might I. I've shared very little of myself here on B4th as have so many others, and as such have never posted a Wanderer story as a result. Quite frankly, maybe I am, maybe I'm not. I have my life now and its quite an excellent one. I am averse to revealing too much for personal reasons, and find it irrelevant for discourse in any event, but will slightly, for the purpose of the question, speak to it a bit very sketchily towards that purpose. I am blessed. I know it. Life has not been a struggle. My parents are my best friends. My brothers are my best friends. My girlfriends have been my best friends. All of my best friends have been life long best friends. Not just a few. Almost all them. My education came easy and was never a struggle. My finances...forget about it, have been more than extremely wonderful. Some of my business partners (?) ... well, when one swims with sharks in the deep end of the pool one rather naturally assumes that the occasional shark or two will get the occasional nibble. One has to have the stomach for it given that business, like politics, breeds STS by nature. But if one gambles, as in life, one rather assumes one will loose a few hands at the hand of either the deal, if not the dealer himself. It goes with the game. Again, as in Life, its how much one walks away with at the end of the evening that determines if one is a loser versus a winner, rather than counting every hand lost. And perhaps that's part of the higher game and the difference in playing it. There are those I know that win millions, yet only speak to the hand(s) they've lost.

My point in revealing this is that I have since early youth always been attracted to esoterica and have specifically additionally always held that one may quite profoundly utilize ones life as the example to oneself, just exactly through the experiment I have revealed, i.e., to minimize ones suffering, or shall we say to live more elegantly in a more refined capacity. And most certainly not just with respect to money. If you are correct Aaron, and I think your response is most insightful, then we indeed have the gift of the creator as the creator and are armed with the inherent wherewithal to act as manifesting beings to create to the extent that we may increase or minimize as much as we care to or need, which does not bar or exclude suffering if we need it or came for it, but may not necessitate it even if we did, this by and through the power of learning, willing, and absolving ourselves. Otherwise like Dorothy in Oz we simply click our heels in unison to the mantra and cool-aide we drink that says we suffer because we are all in a consensus collective reality that agrees we do and says we do in 3D. Can we pull away from the herd mentality, even within a subset herd that is significantly more armed, even with such precepts as the LOO and other such tools, who within such subsets may still huddle nonetheless? Walking alone is an upmost requirement as seen in Arcanum Number 15, The Devil. As the saint, sage, and great teacher Groucho Marx said: "You go to Uruguay and I'll go my way." Walking ones own way not only very often scares the herd, it as often pisses them off. The herd requires that you conform, even within subsets of herds. I feel these sentiments are not the ramblings of a madman as much as what I see about me is quite mad indeed, while it is not mad at all, if you know what I mean. Its all good.


~ Q ~
I don't have much to offer on the why question, as in why the Creator chose the possibility of pain, suffering, confusion, service to self, etc. I can repeat what Ra said about the increased efficacy for spiritual evolution, the process by which the Creator knows itself, but that just begs a deeper why. Why does the Creator want to know itself in the first place?

And that is a mystery which, when contemplated, causes my mind to look into a darkness with no shape, no form, no clarity, no meaning, and no light... just mystery... or perhaps simply the limits of my own thinking mind.

At any rate, about pain and suffering specifically, the following quote from Ra suggests that "trauma", like all things, is a result of free will, in this case, free will used less wisely than possible, or catalyst processed and understood less efficiently than possible.

If you place emphasis on "among your entities", it would seem that Ra may be communicating between the lines that other planetary groups would and do choose a wholly less traumatic progression.

34.14http://lawofone.info/results.php?session_id=34&ss=1#14

Ra: Finally, one may polarize very strongly third ray by expressing the principle of universal love at the total expense of any distortion towards involvement in bellicose actions. In this way the entity may become a conscious being in a very brief span of your time/space. This may be seen to be what you would call a traumatic progression. It is to be noted that among your entities a large percentage of all progression has as catalyst, trauma.

: ) GLB
(10-05-2010, 03:11 PM)Bring4th_GLB Wrote: [ -> ]the following quote from Ra suggests that "trauma", like all things, is a result of free will, in this case, free will used less wisely than possible, or catalyst processed and understood less efficiently than possible.
Thank you for your participation Gary. We see far too little of you and your ability with prose.
The rest of 34.14 states:
Ra Wrote: "One may find oneself in the situation of war and polarize somewhat towards the positive activating orange, yellow, and then green rays by heroic, if you may call them this, actions taken to preserve the mind/body/spirit complexes of other-selves".
This sentiment goes to the heart of my previous statement as regards the balancing act of "The Man on The Tightwire In The Circus Of Life." It may likewise go to the heart of knowing when to walk away from a fight in the effort of preserving the other who is heavily invested in the fight. Life is an art.

GLB Wrote:If you place emphasis on "among your entities", it would seem that Ra may be communicating between the lines that other planetary groups would and do choose a wholly less traumatic progression.
An excellent point, and one which we may draw from as regards the entire thrust of the question to begin with. I am certain of your intuition and insight as regards the rest of creation and planetary groups. I am as a result curious why suffering is needed at all for our 3D given that, as you point out, it is indeed just as likely that it is not needed on other 3D planets. It begs the original question refined, are we the creators of the suffering in question versus it being a pre-requisite to 3D as a rule? If so, although we may not eliminate an other self's suffering, may we limit, if not almost entirely eliminate our own, through our magical abilities?


Ra Wrote:Ra: Finally, one may polarize very strongly third ray by expressing the principle of universal love at the total expense of any distortion towards involvement in bellicose actions. In this way the entity may become a conscious being in a very brief span of your time/space. This may be seen to be what you would call a traumatic progression. It is to be noted that among your entities a large percentage of all progression has as catalyst, trauma.
And herein lies the greatest trick in "The Circus Of Life" of all, particularly for all in service to STO. Just love, this for the sake of love alone without any request in return. The beauty of this one is that one may do this from a distance as readily as in the same room. Heart

~ Q ~
(10-05-2010, 12:59 PM)ricdaw Wrote: [ -> ]Suffering does seem to be a fundamental characteristic of the Earth Life School (see Tarot cards Fool, Strength, Temperance, Devil and Tower). We are constrained in our Free Will by these archetype patterns laid down by the Galaxy, as modified by our Sun.

(10-05-2010, 03:04 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed. I would ask however if we as the adept nearing 4D, or perhaps wandering from 5D or 6D, may minimize it as part of our lives and as one of the experiences towards refining/manipulating/creating ones life experience as part of breaking the illusion if you will?

(10-05-2010, 12:59 PM)ricdaw Wrote: [ -> ]That said, the Adept has quite powerful ways to do Reality Creation (even in the ELS) and probably could avoid much suffering.


(10-05-2010, 03:04 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]I am most keen to hear more of your sentiments as regards this if you are interested in revealing more. I will confess that this is one of the more titillating of points I have been experimenting with for quite a long stretch of my own life experience and is perhaps a most powerful and elegant tool. It resonates with me. Humorously it reads as quite profound and deep. Simplified to its extreme, it may simply be read as "Playing In The Fields Of The Lord" with ones life in the manner one would more like to live it.

There is an exercise of some utility. A thought exercise, if you will.

Believe that all that happens to you is known, planned and accepted by a part of yourself outside of time. In other words, you consent to events in and of your life. And you also plan them. Just assume this is true for the sake of the exercise, and don’t get hung up if you don’t believe it is true.

When suffering comes, pretend you were your “outside of time” self who had the big perspective, and ask yourself, “why would I do this to myself?” Assume that the you “outside of time” is really really you, not some “evil-Spock” alternate universe twin with a wicked sense of humor. It’s you.

I have found that a bit of pondering leads to some interesting inspirations.

Why did my boss get all over my ass in that meeting when he could have come to me in private? Becomes: why would I make it so that my Boss got all over my ass in that meeting? What was there to learn?

Hmmm. Did I ever do that to someone else? (Karma balancing)
This has happened again and again all my adult life. What energy is the boss expressing that I express too? Or that I completely lack and need to see how it works? Are there similarities between all my bosses past and present? Am I lacking an innate sense of character that I keep choosing the wrong boss? Or is it that I keep going back to a profession that I need to leave? Is this Big Self trying to “push” me out of this lucrative job and into something else? Are there are similar kinds of things that validate any of these thoughts?

You get the point. Pretending (or believing) that there are no accidents and that events always always have a purpose, tends to take the brain to strange places. I have found that every time I put my noggin to work, I am able to explain my suffering as a form of “communication” from Big Self to Little Self. I can decode the message. And if I take action on the message, suddenly the repeating patterns stop happening. Having gotten the message, the universe changes to a new series of things to deal with.

I find that catalyst (suffering) always ramps up until the underlying message is received. And that message is never “learn to endure” (at least not for me) but always an exhortation to action and to change.

Repeating this mental exercise over and over does a strange thing too: it increases flow. Things get easy. Suffering gets smaller. Since you begin to “decode” smaller and smaller catalyst (why did I cut my finger?) you get the message sooner and sooner. And thus you get to avoid the escalation that is done to get your attention.

Life is a dream. Treat every event and person as a symbolic message from your Larger Self. Act on the inspiration you receive as if it were really true. What happens then?

Magic happens.

And recognition of that leads to joy. (I am aware there is a Plan. I am acting WITH the Plan!)

And joy leads to vibration and light.

And then, vibration and light will bring a new kind of catalyst into your life. The Other Self attracted to you for no conscious reason. But since YOU are conscious now, YOU know why they are there: so that you may offer Service.

And you share a thought experiment with the Other Self that perhaps they should pretend that what happens to them is known, planned and accepted by a part of themselves outside of time. . . .
I believe that we are here (in 3D) to make a choice between light and dark. Thus we need to be presented with both sides. Most (all?) of us here enjoy the light, and hence ask questions like "why is there suffering?" There may be others who enjoy the dark and welcome the presence of suffering.
Once we have made the choice, and graduated to 4D or higher there would be no need to be presented with the choice; instead we go to where we are comfortable.

So, 3D is like someone who has never tasted ice cream to choose between vanilla and chocolate. If chocolate never showed up on the menu how would you be able to make the choice?
(10-05-2010, 11:18 AM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]may we possibly leave out the whole business of the "Infinity Concept"
I suggested the moderators automatically add "... and INFINITY!" to the title of every thread on the site. For some reason that didn't go over too well. Tongue
(10-05-2010, 11:49 AM)Aaron Wrote: [ -> ]Therefore, it is an open-book test...

I hadn't read that session before. This explanation makes a lot of sense for why life on earth can be so intense.

I had a college professor who allowed ONE index card of notes to be brought into the final exam. It's amazing how small some people could write!

So here I am in the final exam, not even sure what the title of the class is. Choice 101 I suppose. I certainly don't remember preparing at all for this! The final exam consists of one question:
"Discuss. Use additional pages if necessary."

In my pocket is a note card. On it is written:
CREATIVITY STUDY BEAUTY LOVE CONVERSATION SACRIFICE UNBALANCED HEARTBREAK COMMUNITY ASCENSION Ra
P.S. Peanut butter sandwich after test.
P.P.S. It's OK to ask your neighbor to help you with the exam.
Hi Q,

Good question, as always. I think you've had a lot of good responses and discussion as well, but I'd like to throw in a different thought.

As already noted, the emergence of the concept of suffering was probably concomitant with the emergence of the veil. Before the veil, entities still entered 3D, but this density was not the density of choice, since there was no STS to choose from. STS emerged as a choice due to the ability of some entities to contact intelligent (dare I say the word) infinity through the orange and yellow, spring boarding to the blue chakra, rather than through the green chakra.

In reality, 3D is not really the density of choice, it is the density in which we learn to contact intelligent infinity. It is possible that, in the future, we or other beings my find a way to contact intelligent infinity directly from the red chakra, or possibly that entities may learn to contact intelligent infinity alternately through the green, or the orange/yellow/blue. Is it possible, for example, that a schizophrenic with multiple personalities can be both harvestable STS and STO simultaneously?

I think that these are surprises that each logos hopes/tries to create when they establish through free will, the rules of their engagement at their creation.

Now, to take the discussion back on topic, why is there suffering? Because it just "happened" in the great experiments that led up to our logos' creation. It is not desired, it just comes with the territory of the veil, as does STS, and a whole cornucopia of other experiences and intensities of experience in our 3D world.

A different question we might ask is, what new experiences like suffering are our experiences providing future logoi to consider in setting up their own "rules" when they are established?

Food for thought,

3D Sunset
(10-05-2010, 03:04 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]I like it very much. If you would Aaron, are there references from Ra that you are pulling from or are these intuitive responses? If from references I would be appreciative if you might share them. If not, do go on in any event.

What I said was the result of kind of an amalgamated understanding from what I've read of the Ra/Q'uo materials, plus my intuition. So, sadly, I can't give you any specific references aside from the jumbled and rather disorganized tangle of neurons in my skull. Tongue

Quantum Wrote:In other words smile alot, and be as nice as is often as possible, but also be wiling to defend one self and fight if necessary if you love yourself as much.

This reminds me of a couple of verses in the Tao Te Ching. I think Lao Tzu would agree with you. Big Grin Even reaching 51% STO is a big challenge, so one certainly can't blame one's-self for finding a bit of negativity inside. In fact, I think using the negativity you do find within yourself as grounding muscle for the positivity might make going forward a bit easier, and balanced. i.e. love others, but don't forget to feed yourself, or as you say here, defend yourself if necessary.

Quantum Wrote:Like the man on a tightwire in the circus of life, it is a delicate balancing act filled with spectacle, balloons, music, mayhem, and clowns all about.

Boy are you right on with that statement!
(10-06-2010, 03:23 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Q,

Good question, as always. I think you've had a lot of good responses and discussion as well, but I'd like to throw in a different thought.

As already noted, the emergence of the concept of suffering was probably concomitant with the emergence of the veil. Before the veil, entities still entered 3D, but this density was not the density of choice, since there was no STS to choose from. STS emerged as a choice due to the ability of some entities to contact intelligent (dare I say the word) infinity through the orange and yellow, spring boarding to the blue chakra, rather than through the green chakra.
Long time no hear old friend. I'm glad you've come out of hibernation (I should be talking after a full year of seclusion?) The "dare I say the word" ( i.e. Infinity) made me fall off my chair.
You've likewise brought up some Extremely Interesting responses in kind as well.
(10-06-2010, 03:23 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]In reality, 3D is not really the density of choice, it is the density in which we learn to contact intelligent infinity. It is possible that, in the future, we or other beings my find a way to contact intelligent infinity directly from the red chakra, or possibly that entities may learn to contact intelligent infinity alternately through the green, or the orange/yellow/blue. Is it possible, for example, that a schizophrenic with multiple personalities can be both harvestable STS and STO simultaneously?
Fascinating. This would explain more than a few girlfriends of the past who had the uncanny ability of channeling both STO and STS in similitude who alternately wanted to kill me and marry me at once. I'm sure it can be done (STS and STO at once vs marrying me or killing I mean). Your suggesting then that 3D is the density for contacting intelligent infinity and one of choice by default vis-a-vis polarization, as opposed to purpose, this by the 2ndary creation of STS also by default vis-a-vis choice versus purpose, all to refine the polarization experiment to contact intelligent infinity, given that contacting intelligent infinity is the only game as the primary game. Excellent.

(10-06-2010, 03:23 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]I think that these are surprises that each logos hopes/tries to create when they establish through free will, the rules of their engagement at their creation.
So the Logoi hide their own eggs and then allow us to look for them through us as their other selves so to speak. Does this entail them forgetting where they hid them as well I wonder, or just avail to them the opportunity of delighting to discover themselves through us much like the parent doing the same for their child at the Easter Egg hunt.

(10-06-2010, 03:23 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]Now, to take the discussion back on topic, why is there suffering? Because it just "happened" in the great experiments that led up to our logos' creation. It is not desired, it just comes with the territory of the veil, as does STS, and a whole cornucopia of other experiences and intensities of experience in our 3D world.
I like this this train of thought very much. Then this concept, similar to mine earlier as seen in my response to GLB, would have it that the Logos did not elect to inflict suffering upon ITself through us as ITself, but that rather it is us as ITself, and in a very direct sense allows us through free will to do it to ourselves and each other, and IT as a consequence - convoluted English to be sure, but then one must almost be convoluted in a sense to think like this.

It begs the first question.: Does the Creator Logos suffer as a consequence of ITs suffering through us? Might It weep for us as much as IT would have us choose another way for ITself, but will not will it for having given ITself free will to choose otherwise? Or is the Logos unfeeling and neutral?

If this is so 3D, then run with me a bit more. It returns me to my original question which secondly begs to be answered. May one minimize, reduce, largely squelch, stay-off, if not nullify larger portions of suffering as an act of magic through one's adeptness as an adept through the faculty of free will by employing the adepthoodness (or is that adpepthidnity) in becoming. May one then in effect truly have it all, i.e., the good life, health, wealth, wisdom, education, love, appreciation for simplicity, as well as for the complicated, for abstraction, discourse, culture, travel, the gourmet lifestyle, combined with the ability to thoroughly enjoy a bit of mischief, fun, down in the dirt (never harming anyone of course) but teasing them thoroughly while not intending injury, and being in love with life, all while remaining as consciously conscious as one can in praise of the Creator who smiles back in kind. The short version to the above would have it that un-suffering, i.e. joy, is as chosen and as viable a path for contacting intelligent infinity as is suffering. Then suffering needn't necessarily be, and one may indeed minimize it to the point of nearly eradicating it graciously and elegantly as much as one may, equal to ones capacity.
(10-06-2010, 03:23 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]A different question we might ask is, what new experiences like suffering are our experiences providing future logoi to consider in setting up their own "rules" when they are established?
Maybe a creation devoid of suffering?

Engage me and challenge my thinking brother....

...L/L
~ Q ~
(10-06-2010, 03:23 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]In reality, 3D is not really the density of choice, it is the density in which we learn to contact intelligent infinity. It is possible that, in the future, we or other beings my find a way to contact intelligent infinity directly from the red chakra, or possibly that entities may learn to contact intelligent infinity alternately through the green, or the orange/yellow/blue.
I think Ra suggested that only Adepts learn to contact intelligent infinity in this density. It’s not something the Average Joe is expected to do.
Quote:RA: . . . [T]he adept is one which will go beyond the green-ray which signals entry into harvestability. The adept will not simply be tapping into intelligent energy as a means of readiness for harvest but tapping into both intelligent energy and intelligent infinity for the purpose of transmuting planetary harvestability and consciousness.

(10-06-2010, 03:23 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]Is it possible, for example, that a schizophrenic with multiple personalities can be both harvestable STS and STO simultaneously?
What a wonderful question!
I've not read the full thread, due to time, so please excuse myself (or yourself, rather) if my reply is a repetition of previous remarks.

Firstly, suffering is an inherent aspect of the combination of free will and the veil. The creator, upon knowing itself by penetrating the veil, was considered the 'most fun' choice by the
Logos. Without it, catalyst was minimal.

Secondly, with my best efforts as to not derail the thread, the one infinite creator implies, by name and nature, to experience all that can be experienced. An existence of unbound inclusion, rather than selective inclusion.

Quantum Wrote:It begs the first question.: Does the Creator Logos suffer as a consequence of ITs suffering through us? Might It weep for us as much as IT would have us choose another way for ITself, but will not will it for having given ITself free will to choose otherwise? Or is the Logos unfeeling and neutral?

An excellent question. In my humble opinion, it can be viewed from the perspective of the fractal nature of the creation. And when doing so, one would consider the notion that the Logos experiences that which is a sub-set of itself, just as the OIC experiences itself as each Logos.

More importantly, as we evolve through the densities, jumping up the sub-sub ladder, as so to speak, we become closer to the Original Thought. This OT experiences all, and hence, this would be the nature and will of the Logos, as it seeks to discover more of itself as the OT/OIC.

Namasté
(10-06-2010, 06:34 PM)ricdaw Wrote: [ -> ]I think Ra suggested that only Adepts learn to contact intelligent infinity in this density. It’s not something the Average Joe is expected to do.

You are correct. In my haste to post my reply I misstated the relationship slightly. I should have said that "In reality, 3D is not really the density of choice, it is the density in which we establish our means to contact intelligent infinity." The difference is subtle, but as you said, significant. STO establish their means through red/orange/yellow/green rays to the blue primary ray, STS through red/orange/yellow directly to primary blue.

Ra also states that these centers must be sufficiently balanced to begin touching the blue ray. So it would seem that establishing a means for penetrating blue ray (freely given communication) is what is vital for graduation to 4D. It does not appear necessary that Blue ray actually be penetrated, although this is certainly possible.

The Law of One, Book II, Session 48 Wrote:The patterns of activation of an entity of high seniority will undoubtedly move with some rapidity to the green-ray level which is the springboard to primary blue. There is always some difficulty in penetrating blue primary energy for it requires that which your people have in great paucity; that is, honesty. Blue ray is the ray of free communication with self and with otherself. Having accepted that an harvestable or nearly harvestable entity will be working from this green-ray springboard one may then posit that the experiences in the remainder of the incarnation will be focused upon activation of the primary blue-ray of freely given communication, of indigo ray, that of freely shared intelligent energy, and if possible, moving through this gateway, the penetration of violet-ray intelligent infinity. This may be seen to be manifested by a sense of the consecrate or hallowed nature of everyday creations and activities.

Quantum Wrote:So the Logoi hide their own eggs and then allow us to look for them through us as their other selves so to speak. Does this entail them forgetting where they hid them as well I wonder, or just avail to them the opportunity of delighting to discover themselves through us much like the parent doing the same for their child at the Easter Egg hunt.

I think that the Logos hides the eggs from us (so to speak, behind the veil), but more importantly establishes the rules for finding them in the resulting hunt. It is we, while groping in the dark trying to find our lost eggs, that occasionally stumble upon a novel solution to the search, one that even the Logos did not envision when he established the game. To further your analogy, it is as if some children while hunting for the eggs that were laid out, discover a nugget of pure gold, that even the Easter bunny didn't know was there. Such was the case when a previous logos, experimenting with the veil, had some mind/body/spirit complexes establish contact to blue ray directly from red/orange/yellow. And so was born STS.

Suffering, I believe, happened due to the veil, and probably long before STS was manifest. To me suffering is nothing more or less than separation anxiety. You see, if we did not have the veil, then we would all recognize that we are instances of the one creator, and as such we would place little or no significance to what happens in our lives. With the veil, regardless how strongly we attest, and believe, and KNOW that we are one with the creator, we cannot experience that contact without transcending our humanness... more on that later.

Quantum Wrote:I like this this train of thought very much. Then this concept, similar to mine earlier as seen in my response to GLB, would have it that the Logos did not elect to inflict suffering upon ITself through us as ITself, but that rather it is us as ITself, and in a very direct sense allows us through free will to do it to ourselves and each other, and IT as a consequence - convoluted English to be sure, but then one must almost be convoluted in a sense to think like this.

I think that the Logos understood that suffering came part-in-parcel with the veil. I also think that to the one creator, suffering is like a spice, that when it occurs in proper combination with other life experiences greatly enhance the quality of resulting distilled experiences of the individual's 3D existence.

Quantum Wrote:It begs the first question.: Does the Creator Logos suffer as a consequence of ITs suffering through us? Might It weep for us as much as IT would have us choose another way for ITself, but will not will it for having given ITself free will to choose otherwise? Or is the Logos unfeeling and neutral?

Law of One, Book I, Session 23 Wrote:Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to remember that we are of the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow.

Is not sorrow the handmaid of suffering? If 6D entities feel and respond to this call from those suffering, is there any doubt that the Logos feels and hears it as well?

Quantum Wrote:If this is so 3D, then run with me a bit more. It returns me to my original question which secondly begs to be answered. May one minimize, reduce, largely squelch, stay-off, if not nullify larger portions of suffering as an act of magic through one's adeptness as an adept through the faculty of free will by employing the adepthoodness (or is that adpepthidnity) in becoming. May one then in effect truly have it all, i.e., the good life, health, wealth, wisdom, education, love, appreciation for simplicity, as well as for the complicated, for abstraction, discourse, culture, travel, the gourmet lifestyle, combined with the ability to thoroughly enjoy a bit of mischief, fun, down in the dirt (never harming anyone of course) but teasing them thoroughly while not intending injury, and being in love with life, all while remaining as consciously conscious as one can in praise of the Creator who smiles back in kind. The short version to the above would have it that un-suffering, i.e. joy, is as chosen and as viable a path for contacting intelligent infinity as is suffering. Then suffering needn't necessarily be, and one may indeed minimize it to the point of nearly eradicating it graciously and elegantly as much as one may, equal to ones capacity.

If you so choose to use adepthood to transcend the mechanisms of 3D existence that this Logos has established, then I would say that yes, you can also transcend suffering. I cannot speculate whether or not, after so transcending these mechanisms, you would choose the experiences of "having it all" you describe above. One the other hand, one does not have to use adepthood and fully transcend these mechanisms in order to transcend suffering. All that is needed to transcend suffering is to choose not to suffer. Then perhaps, you can have it all.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset
(10-07-2010, 10:55 AM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]Ra also states that these centers must be sufficiently balanced to begin touching the blue ray. So it would seem that establishing a means for penetrating blue ray (freely given communication) is what is vital for graduation to 4D. It does not appear necessary that Blue ray actually be penetrated, although this is certainly possible.
The Law of One, Book II, Session 48 Wrote:The patterns of activation of an entity of high seniority will undoubtedly move with some rapidity to the green-ray level which is the springboard to primary blue. There is always some difficulty in penetrating blue primary energy for it requires that which your people have in great paucity; that is, honesty. Blue ray is the ray of free communication with self and with otherself. Having accepted that an harvestable or nearly harvestable entity will be working from this green-ray springboard one may then posit that the experiences in the remainder of the incarnation will be focused upon activation of the primary blue-ray of freely given communication, of indigo ray, that of freely shared intelligent energy, and if possible, moving through this gateway, the penetration of violet-ray intelligent infinity. This may be seen to be manifested by a sense of the consecrate or hallowed nature of everyday creations and activities.

Blue Ray is the ray which this race has in great paucity.
* I wonder what the individual with high degrees of Blue Ray would sound like/feel like?

* We know honesty is the Blue Rays greatest hallmark and attribute by what Ra states. I wonder if you feel that there may be other qualities of charterer as easily distinguishable that are also expressed within the Blue Ray?

* Assuming one had a great deal of Blue Ray, and its inherent honesty, I wonder also if such an entity would easily be tolerated, or if in fact he would be admired/celebrated and striking one as if to be emulated?

(01-15-1970, 05:21 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]Suffering, I believe, happened due to the veil, and probably long before STS was manifest. To me suffering is nothing more or less than separation anxiety. You see, if we did not have the veil, then we would all recognize that we are instances of the one creator, and as such we would place little or no significance to what happens in our lives. With the veil, regardless how strongly we attest, and believe, and KNOW that we are one with the creator, we cannot experience that contact without transcending our humanness... more on that later.

Suffering is the result of separation anxiety. As always, well said. Several questions to this if I may:

* The veil allows us, causes us, seemingly makes us believe we are suffering. Piercing the veil, or even only small aspects of it, namely the suffering portion thereof, therefore might allow us to suffer less. What do you think?

* The second part of the equation is that suffering, even with the veil heavily drawn like a thickly ladened curtain made of lead, is nonetheless presumably created as a tool of and for learning as one of its primary purposes. Even one with a heavily ladened lead curtain drawn thickly about them may nonetheless have a greater efficiency for learning, thus perhaps lessening the burden of the suffering caused him as a result of the lesson either lost on him or not learned previously?

* May suffering therefore as a consequence not be controlled and even diminished as a result, this proportionate at and to a ratio equal to the lessons being learned?

* This returns us to one of the original questions now more refined. May it be that the Logos never wished for ITself to suffer, but that IT instead wishes for ITself to learn, understanding that the lack thereof causes IT to suffer nonetheless, all in the effort so that IT may learn?

This reminds me of the axiom that there are those who are motivated by moving towards pleasure, while there are those that are motivated by moving away from pain, i.e. my earlier proposition of living in joy vs its antithesis, notwithstanding that either is as viable a tool for learning. For those that already have heard this one no less than three thousand times in one thousand seminars before, bear with me for those who have not. If you attempt to motivate an individual who is motivated by moving away from pain it is better to offer them a threat of punishment than it is a reward as their motivator. Likewise, if you attempt to motivate an individual who is motivated by pleasure, it is better to offer them a reward to motivate them than it is a punishment.

* Perhaps the Logos is familiar with this technique of Neurolinguistic Programming and allows learning to reduce suffering as a viable path for either road traversed?

(12-31-1969, 11:34 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]I think that the Logos understood that suffering came part-in-parcel with the veil. I also think that to the one creator, suffering is like a spice, that when it occurs in proper combination with other life experiences greatly enhance the quality of resulting distilled experiences of the individual's 3D existence.
Quantum Wrote:It begs the first question.: Does the Creator Logos suffer as a consequence of ITs suffering through us? Might It weep for us as much as IT would have us choose another way for ITself, but will not will it for having given ITself free will to choose otherwise? Or is the Logos unfeeling and neutral?
Law of One, Book I, Session 23 Wrote:Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to remember that we are of the Brothers and Sisters of Sorrow.
(12-31-1969, 11:34 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]Is not sorrow the handmaid of suffering? If 6D entities feel and respond to this call from those suffering, is there any doubt that the Logos feels and hears it as well?

Gorgeous. Thanks for the reminder 3D. Beautifully shared, if not poetically so.

We pause now for this short public announcement:
Brace yourselves: Here comes a bit of Blue Ray on "suffering" that has a way of churning the pot, so to speak, if not derailing. Although suffering is indeed caused by STS, it is certainly not exclusively nor even primarily the ugly step-child of STS that many seemingly too often rant on that it is. STO also causes its fair share of suffering to itself, as well as to its other selves as well. I propose that those who offer same so profusely as regards STS might look deeper into themselves, as should all, rather than hold those on the STS path as largely accountable as it seems many do, this by way of religion, corporate power, politics, health care, ad infinitum worth of discussions that humorously are only circular as if by design. Were it not for religion, corporations, politics, health care, ad infinitum, there would be little power base, if any, for those of STO with which to assist their fellow brethren. I could speak volumes on those who I associate with who are my partners and friends who give ten tons more to one thousand times as many ten thousand times more often than do the ones who look only at their purses and who largely habitat in the places such as the aforementioned halls of power. This in no manner defends those of STS who in fact do also occupy said power halls, but does also suggest that those of STO have as much difficulty in their un-unified, though well intended, intents, which cause huge amounts of suffering for in fact having attempted to intend. i.e. "the road to hell is paved with good intentions," is far more than an aphorism in the real world which was truly only meant to make it better, but often made worse without any STS intrusion whatsoever.

The previous message was solely the opinion of the producers and in no way reflects this station or its executives, members, or staff. Although the preceding message expressed was exclusively on "suffering," we nevertheless return you now to our regularly scheduled program on "suffering" in any event:


Quantum Wrote:May one minimize, reduce, largely squelch, stay-off, if not nullify larger portions of suffering as an act of magic through one's adeptness as an adept through the faculty of free will by employing the adepthoodness ... Then suffering needn't necessarily be, and one may indeed minimize it to the point of nearly eradicating it graciously and elegantly as much as one may, equal to ones capacity.
(12-31-1969, 11:34 PM)3D Sunset Wrote: [ -> ]If you so choose to use adepthood to transcend the mechanisms of 3D existence that this Logos has established, then I would say that yes, you can also transcend suffering.

* Given that the Logos does presumably weep for our suffering, as questioned in my quote above and as answered by the Ra quote you provide as regards the brothers and sisters of sorrow, this compounded by the call they answer to (presumably put forth as a result of the suffering endured), the suffering may be nothing more than the by-product of slow learning as its consequence. We may then very well have it within our hands to quell it, perhaps certainly not so for the planet at large, as each must learn it's own lessons at it's own pace, but perhaps certainly so individually?

* Last question: Might the minimization of suffering in ones life then, if any of the above is true, be akin to the finely wrought mask that our dear friend βαθμιαίος as poetically proposed, and as such, also be likened to a finely wrought instrument created by ourselves to gauge where we may be at with respect to our lessons?

As you know, it is always my pleasure 3D,

Love and Light...

~ Q ~
Rushing forth of an impatient/hasty logos.

its not the infinite intelligence that is creating the 'suffering' and whatnot. its the sub logos of whatever locale (universe, galaxy, planet). rules and balances exist since eternity. the logoses which change the rations, change the experience.

just like how an impatient adept may hurriedly rush and overloads/overdrains chakras or self in the process and suffers, trying to raise its frequency, similarly logoi can do as such.

preveil, there werent desire in entities to use technology, or magic, and the desire to seek, progress was, apparently, rather 'slow' in coming.

logos of this locale, (it may be our galaxy, or our arm of the galaxy, or any other sublogoi that is going the same path) have decided to put a veil, and not feed and supply the entities like they were being done before the veil, so that there can be a desire to seek, progress. the 'imperfect' environment of problems, suffering, would instigate a desire to seek.

however all it does, is to create the desire to seek for getting out of suffering. it is natural -> you introduce a factor into the environment, the need to balance that factor arises. and the entities are doing just that -> laboring to make life easier for them, and reduce their suffering. it is NOT a real desire, coming from within, from their core, to seek and learn, to explore and go forward.

it is a forced situation, artificial.

and naturally, the results are, basically 'not'. not even pathetically low, its as close to none.

one can also apply this into 2d experience. the 2d experience of this planet (and i suspect its even milder than before, compared to dinosaur times), is quite wild. its a fight for survival. while the concept of 'self' is being built up and gained during 1-2 billions that encompass a 2d period, entities are having to fight for survival. predators everywhere, pests, entities hampering each other, fighting among the herd, hunger, pain, and all that. you start itching from the moment you are born, and itch until you die, in the most amiable example.

basically, existing in 2d, is a hellish nightmare.

this is, probably done in order to accelerate/'encourage' the development of the concept of 'self' in the 2d entities. this is their work. a lot of interaction is introduced from the environment, pain, suffering lacking, and therefore, the entity starts to pay attention to its bodily manifestation, its well-keeping, and starts to develop an idea of individual self, with the interactions that it gets from outside.

the deal is, however, most of those interactions are negative in nature. there isnt mutually symbiotic harmony, there isnt even harmony within the herd. you either starve, or kill, or get killed, or suffer in any way possible. within the herd, you get dominated by the single strong male, and that is if your specie keeps males within the herd, after they are grown up. and this is a very mild and amiable situation in regard to standards.

therefore, entities develop their understanding of the 'self'. however, naturally, it all develops along with a continuous experience of suffering, and develops with a negative nature. and when the entity comes into 3d, the biases carved into spirit just manifest -> the entity still keeps trying to fend for itself, make life easier, secure itself, and protect itself. naturally, 3d becomes rather a negative place, just because of that - because the entity has had majority negative interaction from outside. not to mention that, negative hierarchies of herds.

add heavy veil into that, and you just put fuel to the fire. since the delicate flows of the spirit and subconscious from higher densities and one's own higher self, are cut. aand voila -> whats left ? the biases about preservation of self continues. it is not inherently negative. because, they have to survive. self need to be preserved. but, because it is SO heavily emphasized, and all the existence is at most carven to their spirit by being a fight for survival, and there is nothing changing that impression in 3d, it just gets reinforced more. and when a societal structure that is negative, or, starts from that early instincts/biases gets set up, its reinforced even more.

so, as of now, entities on this planet are heavily involved in preservation of their self, its security, its maintenance, well being, and heavily spending efforts in every way to do that. this is not inherently negative. ie, they are doing these, because, they are conditioned to do so. and in their experience, they have been FORCED to do so, conditioned to do so. actually, their experience, itself, has been as such. they do not know an existence that is not like that. hence, they just keep perceiving the existence as it is, and keep adapting to it.

basically, this logos, or similar sublogoi, have created their non harvest.

you cant rush anything. especially, matters of spirit. if there is a desire, there is a desire. you cannot create a desire, by forcing it. or, coercing it. or 'encouraging' it. that is a reason, even for the quite advanced members of this 3d planet, have been experiencing issues with their progress. that is the reason why, all those effort from higher densities, with all the wanderers, this and that, have failed, in the manner ra has been saying 'they were accepting the principles of Law of One, but, they were soon forgotten/ignored as soon as they were in their daily lives'. this goes for efforts of all kinds, from ra's pyramid attempt to positive or negative teaching attempts that turned into religions, this and that.

you cant create a desire, that is not there, or its time hasnt come yet.

if it takes 4 trillion years, for an entity, to manifest a desire for seeking, it should take 4 trillion years. spirit cant be coerced or forced. even if you force it to something now, and it seems like its being forced and there are results, there will be 'non' results later, in an inevitable manner.

................

the logoi which went this way, will eventually see that. i am suspecting that, they have already seen it. and because it has been tried and seen, the same mistake wont be repeated elsewhere.
(10-07-2010, 09:54 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]the logoi which went this way, will eventually see that. i am suspecting that, they have already seen it. and because it has been tried and seen, the same mistake wont be repeated elsewhere.

You have it exactly backwards.

Quote:77.17 Those Logoi whose creations have been set up without free will have not, in the feeling of those Logoi, given the Creator the quality and variety of experience of Itself as have those Logoi which have incorporated free will as paramount. Thusly you find those Logoi moving through the timeless states at what you would see as a later space/time to choose the free will character when elucidating the foundations of each Logos.
(10-07-2010, 01:34 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]* The veil allows us, causes us, seemingly makes us believe we are suffering. Piercing the veil, or even only small aspects of it, namely the suffering portion thereof, therefore might allow us to suffer less. What do you think?

Most certainly. Consider that suffering, like stress, is always due to the impression of lack of control in a given situation. As the veil is pierced, that impression is reduced, and so to is the resulting suffering.

(10-07-2010, 01:34 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]* The second part of the equation is that suffering, even with the veil heavily drawn like a thickly ladened curtain made of lead, is nonetheless presumably created as a tool of and for learning as one of its primary purposes. Even one with a heavily ladened lead curtain drawn thickly about them may nonetheless have a greater efficiency for learning, thus perhaps lessening the burden of the suffering caused him as a result of the lesson either lost on him or not learned previously?

I believe that the lesson to be learned from suffering is one of atonement. In our Judeo/Christian/Islamic (JCI did you call it), traditions, the term atonement is interpreted to mean spiritual restitution for sins. To me, atonement is the process of being more "at one" with the creator and hence all of the co-creators we may have intentionally or unintentionally harmed (or caused to suffer). By experiencing suffering, we are learning the lesson of atonement through forgiveness of ourselves (for causing suffering to others and ourselves) and others (for causing our suffering). I use the term "causing" guardedly, because, in truth, we create all the suffering in our lives through our inability to fully recognize the creator in ourselves and others. To your previous point, by piercing the veil, we more clearly are able to recognize this truth.

(10-07-2010, 01:34 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]* May suffering therefore as a consequence not be controlled and even diminished as a result, this proportionate at and to a ratio equal to the lessons being learned?

Yes, again to me the lesson to be learned is atonement, or our "at one ment" with all other entities. The more we are at one with all around us, the less we suffer and the less we can cause suffering.

(10-07-2010, 01:34 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]* This returns us to one of the original questions now more refined. May it be that the Logos never wished for ITself to suffer, but that IT instead wishes for ITself to learn, understanding that the lack thereof causes IT to suffer nonetheless, all in the effort so that IT may learn?

Yes again, ditto my answer above. Consider too, that suffering is an amazing emotion. And it is through our emotions and actions that the One Creator is experiencing himself.

When you enter a movie theater, do you wish the actors that portray the characters to suffer? No, you realize that the actors and the characters are different. Even though the characters may appear to suffer greatly, you know that the actors portraying them are unharmed by the story. Still, by attending the movie, you are able to experience a wide spectrum of emotions that you would not have, if you hadn't entered the theater. Similarly, the Logos and the One Creator experience and learn through our suffering (joy, fear, love, etc.) just as you learn through those experiences gleaned in the theater. Even though they recognize that there is no real suffering, they do gain experience when we, as characters, experience it. Note that this was not possible before the veil.

(10-07-2010, 01:34 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]* Given that the Logos does presumably weep for our suffering, as questioned in my quote above and as answered by the Ra quote you provide as regards the brothers and sisters of sorrow, this compounded by the call they answer to (presumably put forth as a result of the suffering endured), the suffering may be nothing more than the by-product of slow learning as its consequence. We may then very well have it within our hands to quell it, perhaps certainly not so for the planet at large, as each must learn it's own lessons at it's own pace, but perhaps certainly so individually?

At the risk of sounding trite, I suggest again that one can cease to suffer simply by choosing not to suffer. More easily said than done perhaps, but I think that it can be accomplished through constant, conscious recognition that we are the actors, not the characters, and that in reality there is but one actor... us. This process may be amplified and accelerated through meditation and viewing the world with our inherent, childlike sense of curiosity and wonderment.

(10-07-2010, 01:34 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]* Last question: Might the minimization of suffering in ones life then, if any of the above is true, be akin to the finely wrought mask that our dear friend βαθμιαίος as poetically proposed, and as such, also be likened to a finely wrought instrument created by ourselves to gauge where we may be at with respect to our lessons?

Indeed, my friend, indeed.

(10-07-2010, 01:34 PM)Quantum Wrote: [ -> ]As you know, it is always my pleasure 3D,

The pleasure is mine as well, dear friend.

Love and Light...

3D Sunset
(10-07-2010, 10:10 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-07-2010, 09:54 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]the logoi which went this way, will eventually see that. i am suspecting that, they have already seen it. and because it has been tried and seen, the same mistake wont be repeated elsewhere.

You have it exactly backwards.

Quote:77.17 Those Logoi whose creations have been set up without free will have not, in the feeling of those Logoi, given the Creator the quality and variety of experience of Itself as have those Logoi which have incorporated free will as paramount. Thusly you find those Logoi moving through the timeless states at what you would see as a later space/time to choose the free will character when elucidating the foundations of each Logos.

no i dont.

its not about logoi giving free will to their sublogoi. its about the extent of it.

as per what maldek, mars, earth shows, there is a limit to the extent of free will given to any density. if it goes over an extent, the results become 'none'.

its another property of existence relating to the balance aspect. there has to be balance in all things, and these do not only apply to energetic forms, manifestations. (ie chakras and so on).

balance also applies to the matters of mind. nothing should go overboard.

............

so, im saying that the logoi who went extreme with the 'free will' business, will see that there is a limit to all that too. and, if things go out of hand, results become almost nil.

of course, it is probable that, these experiments were made in order to discover the extent of free will that could be given, and the amount of veil that could be applied, in the first place.

however, results would be the same ; its balance will be found, and no more free will than what's balanced will be offered to 3d manifestations in future. this is what i think.
It's too soon to say if earth is a success or a failure, and I don't think we're really in a position to judge anyways, here behind the veil. For that matter, the story's not over for the entities from Mars or Maldek, either.

Ra does say "free will as paramount," so I don't think your idea of limiting free will is quite au courant with the latest thinking among with-it Logoi.

For their part, Ra ascribes our tendency toward warfare to the opposable thumb rather than to the veil.
i dont think it is too easy to say. we have a lot of data :

maldek, is no more. mars, is uninhabitable. (and hence has no 3d activity). earth, was damaged by atlantis. we dont know if anything else happened in ancient history in addition. lemuria, an entire continent sank, due to no fault of their own inhabitants. but, why did it sink in the first place. then, we have our current situation, tethering on the brink of any kind of destruction even as of now.

we have 200 year wanderer wave, and then a new wanderer wave since some time, to lighten planetary vibrations. 60 million+ wanderers, mostly from 6d and ra, were incarnated on the planet circa 1980, and this was a 'new phenomenon' back then, as what ra tells us. means, it probably increased, that number ... 60 million is a whopping number, if im not mistaken, the population of ra is 60 million entities or so, it was said. even if we dont say all of ra incarnated (and very unlikely) still an entire 6d complex worth and more, is incarnated here, if we count in all the wanderers. (since majority from 6d). and then there are also 4d entities incarnating in 3-4d bodies to both start their work, and probably with a side intent of lightening vibrations.

so it seems we are being held in this balance by an extreme effort.

as for opposable thumb, it is the enabling factor that unfolds everything. the entities were cut from the spiritual flows, their higher self too. the mind complex was strengthened. more able bodies were given. and then, opposable thumb.

what could be expected as a result ? because flows are disrupted, spirit part of complex is hampered. there is strong mind, there is the means to use it, and hence, a lot of technology and power, lacking the inspiration and guidance/direction/desires of spirit, comes into being.

its like a powder keg. it explodes randomly. it doesnt even explode negatively. if it was, it would at least be having a direction.

free will being 'paramount' does not mean that there will be boundless of it. spirit is also paramount. nothing can happen without spirit. how much spirit power an entity does have ? infinite ? no. until its mass reaches infinity at end of 7d, it can not.

same goes for mind, body counterparts also. an entity can only gain as much freedom as the maturity of its spirit complex it seems. body, mind can both change, with their base counterparts remaining, but spirit always keeps the core biases and nature of the entity.

so, we are limited. no entity can use more freedom than their total power/nature allows anyway .... one wouldnt even understand it. the thing is, finding the correct measure of freedom to offer.
Not too easy to say, too early. And let's just say that we lack a certain perspective from our vantage point.

The Logoi that incorporated free will as paramount were hoping to catalyze seeking. They seem to have been quite successful at that. To the point of this thread, that's the reason for suffering (the board to the forehead, 83.26).

Of course, you're correct that evolution continues and that future Logoi will design their creations after gleaning the lessons of this one. But decreasing free will doesn't seem to be the direction things are going.
Hi Unity,

It seems to me that you define "success" of the Logos within 3D to be the speed with which mind/body/spirit complexes progress through 3D while in the Logos' domain. That is to say, if there is a small harvest, then you appear to equate that with "failure".

Alternately, I propose that the measure of success within a Logos is both qualitative and quantitative. That is to say, there is equally high a level of concern (if not perhaps more) on the quality and variety of experiences shared with the One Infinite Creator, and the speed with which the progress is accomplished.

The ability to make progress is certainly of concern, but I would propose that even with the thick veil of our 3D existence, the mind/body/spirit complexes herein are still progressing much more quickly than before the veil. It appears that this Logos is willing to use wanderers (both positive and negative, I think) to help direct the souls toward harvestability at the end of the cycle. Seems like a logical approach to me.

I like to compare 3D existence behind the veil to the creation of a complex computer game. If it is easy to create, then it is not very interesting to play. The harder it is to create, the more interesting it is to play. The thicker the veil and the greater the free will allocated to the individual, the more time is required to create the game, and the greater the experiences of the ultimate player of the game (i.e. the One Infinite Creator). Creating great things takes time. The One Infinite creator has infinite (sorry Quantum) patience.

So it seems to me that the real dynamic at play by our Logos is the attempt to balance the variety and richness of experience with the amount of time required to achieve it. Wanderers are like consultants brought to bear to help many souls complete their game as the deadline approaches.

If 4D is typically on the order of 30 million years, then of what consequence is even four or five 75,000 year major cycles within 3D? Given the quality and variety of the experiences (and the likelihood that this additional 3D experience pays returns in faster progression in later densities), it would seem to me that the thicker veil, and greater grant of free will, is quite likely a very successful experiment.

Ultimately, it is very much like a project management challenge of trying to allocate available resources optimally to achieve a quality, timely, cost effective result. I think that the final cost/benefit analysis for this Logos cannot be computed until the m/b/s complexes that progressed through it have finished their journey back to 8D.

Love and Light,

3D Sunset
(10-09-2010, 09:48 AM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: [ -> ]The Logoi that incorporated free will as paramount were hoping to catalyze seeking. They seem to have been quite successful at that. To the point of this thread, that's the reason for suffering (the board to the forehead, 83.26).

they havent been successful. if we take what happened here. 2nd cycle harvest of this planet, was 250 people out of 4 billion or so. almost none. no harvest in 1st cycle before that.

maldek blew up. no harvests. mars uninhabitable. how much harvest was made, is unknown. yet, they used energy weapons probably, hence, a mess of consciousness like maldek, would not be out of the question, even if for parts of population, unless it was intervened.

the above-all idea is, you cant 'catalyze' things. they just happen in their due time. introductions of all kinds of sufferings, emotions, this that, constructs, limitations, will not change the fact that spirit will still do what it is ready when it is ready.

this is the picture we are having in front of us.

the 3d of this density, is still heavily invested in 2d consciousness. (we know this from ra).

it is highly possible that, because due to the intense pain, suffering catalyst and other kind of catalyst introduced in 2d, these entities also had a 'catalyzed and encouraged' graduation from 2d. ( at least, talking about the natives of this planet. it is possible that those from this solar system could be in the same position).

but, just like how ra had to spend much time in 5d to offset their 4d experience, the entities here are spending their due time in 3d, in 2d consciousness. still making up for the rush.

after all, what we know from ra is, ratios never change in the end. you can accelerate or condense a density, or, make it take longer, but, it will get offset in the end.

Quote:Of course, you're correct that evolution continues and that future Logoi will design their creations after gleaning the lessons of this one. But decreasing free will doesn't seem to be the direction things are going.

is it ?

what's all this channeled information, spiritual contact, spiritual ideals and philosophies which have been coming in in phenomenal amounts since mid 19th century, in an increasing rate ? leave aside all the wanderers who constitute a population more than a decent 6d complex's ? all the info that was given, inventions, ideological systems, philosophies, even if they didnt succeed to full extent ?

veil was put in to separate conscious and subconscious, quarantine was placed to prevent external influences, but with all above, we have almost offset the quarantine, and undid veil in a grander scale, if not for each individual entity, one by one -> as a planet, this planet has almost no veil. that is not counting all the efforts of wanderers which turned into religions since a long while.
But harvest does not happen only each 75.00 years but whenever their is seeking and polarization(adept).

I know Ra mentioned entities that polarized negative in the past and achieved 4d after death. I am not sure about positive but i believe is the same as well.

If anything the consensual reality we have now is morphing to a stage where beliefs will be show clearly to create reality.
We are choosing trough our thoughts,words and actions the realities that are our best representation, Trough our state of being we filter the ALL and have the appropriate experience.

The more aligned you are the less dependent you are on cycles and perceived limitations, the more expansive and the more you's you are able to reach and experience.

From my vantage point everything is going according to plan, because that is how i prefer to see the prism of life.

In light and love
E
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