Bring4th

In carrie's thread "Do you expect your country to continue to exist in 4D," unity100 vigorously suggested for us to look at human socialism as a model for the spiritual harmony, cooperation, and shared rules we can expect in 4D+. Others including myself just as vigorously suggested that different interpretations of politics and private property may be more appropriate.

I started this thread so we can split off that discussion, which has a lot of deep possibilities but isn't much related to carrie's original question.

Great, however there is an incorrect translation of what i said :

i have said that, and still saying that, the mechanism of not only 4d positive societies, but, all elevating densities are increasingly socialist. Leaving aside effort, production, external manifestations of actions, but also entities' own selves, to the point of the society complex, or society complex totality of an entity being able to decide that a particular entity needs to make up for some faltering lessons and that entity goes to incarnate in a 3d planet as a wanderer, to make up for those lessons in addition to being of service.

This relates to a concept I've seen from several channeled sources & NDE reports.

The idea that individual human souls are part of a Soul Group.

Between incarnations, the Group decides on lessons the Group will learn. The Group decides which of its individual Souls will incarnate and focus on particular lessons. Those Souls incarnate and the remainder of the group stays in the spiritual, as spirit guides who influence events and try to communicate with those who have dropped below the Veil.

I don't recall if this is discussed by Ra.

I can see how you could draw a parallel to say, that's a socialistic soul group.

Is this the concept you had in mind?

By the way:

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. The result is difficult to transmit. It is 1,012, approximately. The entities who call are sometimes not totally unified in their calling and, thus, the squaring slightly less. Thus, there is a statistical loss over a period of call. However, perhaps you may see by this statistically corrected information the squaring mechanism.

This was post #1012 for me.

I have thought sometimes that green ray is left wing, blue ray is right wing (because to make money for the community you do need business to bring it in.) and indigo is the fine balance we strike in getting it all right.

Socialism can not work in the STS world we find ourselves. Fighting for freedom is necessary. Socialism can only work when it is voluntary and in a STO world.

Phoenix, that's interesting. It reminds me of some of Ken Wilber's writings.

Sequoyah, that's the point of disagreement unity100 faces from some other forum members. His (I assume) claim is that this kind of loving cooperation can and does occur in human 3D nations and societies. That many examples from history, and many current governments, show a socialistic mutual love.

(10-06-2010, 12:28 AM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]This relates to a concept I've seen from several channeled sources & NDE reports.

The idea that individual human souls are part of a Soul Group.

Between incarnations, the Group decides on lessons the Group will learn. The Group decides which of its individual Souls will incarnate and focus on particular lessons. Those Souls incarnate and the remainder of the group stays in the spiritual, as spirit guides who influence events and try to communicate with those who have dropped below the Veil.

I don't recall if this is discussed by Ra.

I can see how you could draw a parallel to say, that's a socialistic soul group.

Is this the concept you had in mind?

By the way:

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. The result is difficult to transmit. It is 1,012, approximately. The entities who call are sometimes not totally unified in their calling and, thus, the squaring slightly less. Thus, there is a statistical loss over a period of call. However, perhaps you may see by this statistically corrected information the squaring mechanism.

This was post #1012 for me.

yes, and there are many more intricate concepts like increasing harmonization towards 6d, to the extent of even male/female distinction going away, and the integration of all parallel existences of an entity in 7d.

soul group, probably is another phenomenon. but, it is separate from the harmonization/positive polarity concept that is behind this conclusion.

(10-06-2010, 09:11 AM)Phoenix Wrote: [ -> ]I have thought sometimes that green ray is left wing, blue ray is right wing (because to make money for the community you do need business to bring it in.) and indigo is the fine balance we strike in getting it all right.

i dont thing such an easy distinction is possible. the principles inherent in 4d, apparently result in an extremely socialist situation, to the extent of even memories and emotions being shared, leave aside external objects.

this is probably as such in 5d society complexes still, but, there is the possibility of continuing 5d as an individual. ra dubs 5d as a quite free density.

'business' doesnt factor in at any point i think. because, you do not aim profit in any endeavor but negative endeavors. the act of creating objects or using resources always happens properly - you use up just as much as you need, and create as much as you need. you dont 'profit', because that is holding the energy from flowing, and would have immediate consequences in higher densities. its just slow in 3rd.

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(10-06-2010, 09:36 AM)thefool Wrote: [ -> ]I thought we had already settled this. We had already said that 4D socialism is possible with service oriented people becoming part of the government and hence no corruption.

This whole discussion is for 3D socialism which I said is impractical and you said quite possible.

So please do not muddle up the discussion by mixing these streams. Please go back and read again what we have already covered.

it is only impractical, because the current society is set up negatively, and it is almost impossible to make it go positive, peacefully. even in the last days of the protected timeline, the established system and its leashholders are not availing for any positivization of society, and hampering any attempts to do so, even if they cant totally prevent them.

how do you think the societies of lemura, atlantis were like ? how was the society of the entities harvested in the 2nd cycle ? do you think they had ownership, corporations, profit ?

it is practical in 3d. it is made hard to achieve in contemporary times. and when a country even wanders near the concept, immediate attacks from outside start. in 19th century it was direct invasion, in 20th century its bribery, election fraud, economic penalties, international pressure, even dirtier tricks.

just like how negative entities do not like and attack positivity wherever they can.

thinking 'it is impractical' and letting go of the responsibility is just comfortably leaving one's self in the arms of precisely what the controlling entities want.

Quote:Besides If we really are not concerend about what people wear then why are we trying to make them wear the same thing. Let them BE. It really does not matter...Even looking at abundance negatively is an attachment no less...

it really matters. first of all, nomatter what anyone thinks, there is a 51% requirement for positive emissions for positive 4d. that's that. one needs to fulfill these criteria to get to anywhere outside 3d. ideas dont matter, concepts dont matter, arguments, excuses, objections dont matter. there are rules and requirements for each density to happen. that is that simple.

one cannot come to 4d and go about setting up a company, 'own'ing resources and furthering myself, and then say 'but i love everything'. my 51% polarity would have gone to dustbin even before i reach to the point of saying that.

one cannot start a slaughterhouse and keep slaughtering animals to eat with like minded individuals, saying 'i just love it', sending insane ripples of pain to entire planetary consciousness in the process, and one can come up saying 'let them be'.

the 'cloth' issue is similar. an entity who would be similarly self-indulged like the above, without more concern for its environment and others than its self, would not be able to make it into 4d. therefore such concerns of 'everyone would wear the same thing !! individualism !!' would be totally null and irrelevant when talking about 4d. to enter 4d, one needs to let go of such childish concerns, and self indulgence even before qualifying for 4d.

jesus of nazareth didnt even have a NAME before coming to this planet. it is possible that, even his society complex doesnt have a name. like a lot of entities participating in channelings from other densities.

you are talking about 'ownership' and 'individualization' and 'clothes' for a density, in which entities do not even have names ....

i may let everyone be. you may let everyone be. however, that is not how it works. the qualifications for 4d graduation does not do as such. it requires certain characteristics.

it feels as if there are a lot of entities who take the 51% positive requirement like some abstract, faraway concept without immediate consequences for everything in one's life. like, they will do whatever they want, and live however they want, but as long as they say 'oh i just love everything', it will be ok.

it doesnt work like that. no kind of spiritual orientation can happen without being reflected in day to day actions of an individual.

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(10-06-2010, 12:06 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]His (I assume) claim is that this kind of loving cooperation can and does occur in human 3D nations and societies. That many examples from history, and many current governments, show a socialistic mutual love.

leave aside our planet, a positive 3d society from sirius, if you remember from Ra text, was able to get near society complex stage in 3d, TWICE. the situation of all entities' memories and knowledge being shared, leave aside 'possessions'. they are the ones who came here all the way in a 3d vehicle, somehow without being hampered with rather hostile 3 d interstellar space, to get memories regarding war from charlie hixon's memory.

this shows, even more than sharing, equalistic, positive societies are possible in 3d. and i guess the boundary will be pushed even further as time passes in our galaxy.

(10-06-2010, 12:07 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]one cannot come to 4d and go about setting up a company, 'own'ing resources and furthering myself, and then say 'but i love everything'. my 51% polarity would have gone to dustbin even before i reach to the point of saying that.

one cannot start a slaughterhouse and keep slaughtering animals to eat with like minded individuals, saying 'i just love it', sending insane ripples of pain to entire planetary consciousness in the process, and one can come up saying 'let them be'.

the 'cloth' issue is similar. an entity who would be similarly self-indulged like the above, without more concern for its environment and others than its self, would not be able to make it into 4d. therefore such concerns of 'everyone would wear the same thing !! individualism !!' would be totally null and irrelevant when talking about 4d. to enter 4d, one needs to let go of such childish concerns, and self indulgence even before qualifying for 4d.

You have not read the last response before starting this one. You are muddling things up. I hope not intentionally and I believe you are interested in a sincere discussion not name calling and passing judgement.

I have been talking socialism being impractical in 3D. 4D I am open about it as there would be more guarantee of selfless individuals (that I already mentioned in last response and also much earlier). So I don't understand your diatribe about the self-indlgence. Maybe it hit a nerve or something. I am cool with whatever your life style is. I just neither passionately run after money nor denounce it like a disease. You seem to be doing later, which is also sign of attachment. I use it as a necessity and I am really good at what I do, nothing wrong with that.

If you like to have a good discussion like we were having for some time, then please respond to the idea of socialism being impratical in 3D. Agree , disagree and why?

I believe you are the one and avoiding certain concepts, despite they are the underlying concepts that create all these we talk about. therefore the discussion cannot come to the crux of the matter. its not about my 'lifestyle' either.

letting go of materialism, attachments is not a sign of 'attachment'. it is a universal concept for going towards higher densities. so much universal that, leave aside it being a universal concept among religions and spiritual philosophies of even this world alike (despite they have a lot in disagreement about a lot of other things), even the philosophies that follow negative path dont go near materialism and possessions. they concentrate on control of other individuals.

in short, yes, materialism, material possessions, attachment to these things, are things to be left behind, even if an entity is negative. 'denouncing' being 'attachment' is a proposition that baffles me.

henceforth, these determine the nature of 4d and on, especially positive. and, specifically, along with its sharing, and service to other traits, the definition of a 4d environment (and on) becomes, what we term as socialism, at this time and age.

- no materialism or material attachments
- no reliance on external objects or concepts for identification, definition and expression of one's own self
- sharing
- caring for others more than self
- acknowledging and valuing others' thoughts and feelings more than self
- accepting each and everyone without discrimination, equally
- giving more than you take
- sharing even thoughts, memories and feelings to the point of being one

the above traits, end up defining roughly what we know as 'socialism'. actually even further than that -> entities share, and see others' thoughts, memories and feelings as their own.

these are important. these are energetic, philosophical concepts that lie under EVERYthing related to this subject. 51% positive polarity is not just for show. its not an abstract concept either.

the practicality/impracticality of that concept in 3d, also hinge on the underlying base concepts.

.................

i have made remarks regarding 'impracticality' of socialism or 4d formats in 3d, in the above post. you can refer to those parts.

(10-06-2010, 01:56 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]letting go of materialism, attachments is not a sign of 'attachment'. it is a universal concept for going towards higher densities. so much universal that, leave aside it being a universal concept among religions and spiritual philosophies of even this world alike (despite they have a lot in disagreement about a lot of other things), even the philosophies that follow negative path dont go near materialism and possessions. they concentrate on control of other individuals.

in short, yes, materialism, material possessions, attachment to these things, are things to be left behind, even if an entity is negative. 'denouncing' being 'attachment' is a proposition that baffles me.

Thank you so much for playing along. I am really enjoying this discussion for the most part. I hope you are too as it brings out the unexpressed to be expressed.

OK. Let's talk about attachment and denouncement of attachment. That is a very interesting topic and worthy of discussion. Not a lot of people really understand that they are one and the same. Part of the same concept just opposite ends. The real Transformation is going beyond the both, the ATTRACTION and the REPULSION. When you are attracted to something you are attached to the outcome, when you are repulsed by something still you are attached to the outcome (because you are still thinking about it). The real NON-ATTACHMENT happens when you are neutral in both situation. Because to you it simply does not matter and you are ready for any outcome so called positive or so called negative. Do you remember the story of two zen monks who met a girl on the way to crossing the river. She wanted to cross the river but could not. The first one just looked away. The second one picked her up and crossed the river. Then placed her back and they both walked away. After a few hours the first one starting condemning the second one about touching a women. The second one just said- I dropped her on the other side of the river a few hours ago but you are still carrying her.

I hope this makes sense...

(10-05-2010, 11:53 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]In carrie's thread "Do you expect your country to continue to exist in 4D," unity100 vigorously suggested for us to look at human socialism as a model for the spiritual harmony, cooperation, and shared rules we can expect in 4D+. Others including myself just as vigorously suggested that different interpretations of politics and private property may be more appropriate.

I started this thread so we can split off that discussion, which has a lot of deep possibilities but isn't much related to carrie's original question.

Socialism is, at best, coercive, extortive, and parasitic; in most cases, it is far worse. It is an infringement upon the free will of the productive segment of society, by the unproductive segment of society, and therefore, inherently Service-to-Self in orientation. It is contrary to the desires of all honest men.

My understanding of 4-D positive is that, in that milieu, there is no infringement upon free will. In 4-D positive we would see nothing that we would recognize as Socialism. In 4-D negative, however, socialism, or the same thing by some other name, would be the only system allowed, or possible.

(10-06-2010, 08:31 PM)Eddie Wrote: [ -> ]Socialism is, at best, coercive, extortive, and parasitic; in most cases, it is far worse. It is an infringement upon the free will of the productive segment of society, by the unproductive segment of society, and therefore, inherently Service-to-Self in orientation. It is contrary to the desires of all honest men.

Eddie, do you think that's because of socialism's inherent ideologies, or is it because STS entities abuse the system and impose it on those who are not ready to embrace the concepts of sharing and concern for others?

In other words, is it the philosophy of socialism you think is STS, or the version of socialism seen here on this planet?

(10-06-2010, 08:52 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ][quote='Eddie' pid='20828' dateline='1286411514']

In other words, is it the philosophy of socialism you think is STS, or the version of socialism seen here on this planet?

It is the philosophy itself. A small ruling elite arrogates to itself the control over all economic activity (in other words, it confiscates the labor of others. Another term for this is enslavement.)

(10-06-2010, 08:31 PM)Eddie Wrote: [ -> ]Socialism is, at best, coercive, extortive, and parasitic; in most cases, it is far worse. It is an infringement upon the free will of the productive segment of society, by the unproductive segment of society, and therefore, inherently Service-to-Self in orientation. It is contrary to the desires of all honest men.

and from whence does your attributions come, i wonder.

and, i am also wondering that, whether 200,000 entities working for the profit of a mere 1000-2000 entities, and 80% of the society working for the top 1% to get 50% of everything, and this being a 'corporation' and being 'private business' is compliant with the desires of 'honest men'.

what you say, seems like more negative conditionings against a concept, rather than actual logical conclusions.

you are villifying a concept that suggests that everyone should have equal share in everything, from food to governance. then, going emphasizing equality.

Quote:My understanding of 4-D positive is that, in that milieu, there is no infringement upon free will. In 4-D positive we would see nothing that we would recognize as Socialism. In 4-D negative, however, socialism, or the same thing by some other name, would be the only system allowed, or possible.

yes. people will say to each other

'oh, how i love you, how i love everything. im filled with divine love. ooops a second, let me bill you $99,99 for the groceries you bought ... what was i saying ? yes, love !!'

in 4d things can be only positive, or negative. it is a polarized density.

a situation in which 200,000 entities work for 1000 entities, with all their output going to those 1000 entities but a mere token amount to survive on to themselves, can NOT happen. its the perfect description of willful slavery.

the only option for those 200,000 entities, is to choose which 1000 masters they are going to slaver for, by changing the master they work for, for a better token amount. and, this is expressed as 'freedom of choice'.

freedom of choosing one's own master to exploit oneself, is not choice.

(10-06-2010, 08:58 PM)Eddie Wrote: [ -> ]It is the philosophy itself. A small ruling elite arrogates to itself the control over all economic activity (in other words, it confiscates the labor of others. Another term for this is enslavement.)

please explain how does everything belonging to everyone, and everyone getting equal shares from the products of their labor, everyone being owners of what they do, and everyone having equal rights to deciding what happens in the land, is enslavement. with logical axioms and propositions, please. not accusations and unfounded adjectives.

As I said before, anarchy would be a more creative approach to 4D life than socialism. Having everyone wear the same clothes would make for a dreadfully dreary milieu. The creator is all about experiencing itself. Variety is key. And this is possible within a social memory complex. Such connection would make the variety harmonious. The variety on current-day 3D Earth can be quite glorious, but it is most often jarring, inharmonious and exhausting. However, with harmony it could be glorious.

So I vote for harmonious anarchy as opposed to rigid socialism where everything is the same.

"King? Who elected you king?"

(10-06-2010, 09:46 PM)Etude in B Minor Wrote: [ -> ]Having everyone wear the same clothes would make for a dreadfully dreary milieu.

Do 4D entities wear clothes?? I just assumed everyone would be nekkid.

wearing different rags over one's body does not make one different. the experience of infinite intelligence, is in the spirit. the vibrations. so much that, the concept of a 'cloth' goes away even before 6d. actually, most of the sentient entities in this galaxy doesnt even have any concept of cloth, anyway, since all species are different.

all that said, there is nothing barring from a socialist 4d society member from wearing a different color cloth. however, if the society, as a collective, concluded that wearing a certain color would be better suited to their nature or service, that entity, would also do that.

'but i dont want my freedo .....' <- if this is the objection that comes to mind, it means that that entity still havent grasped the meaning of 51% positive polarity, 'more others than me', or havent polarized as such.

an entity in 4d would be increasingly harmonious with all the other entities s/he is merging with. since, society complex is a early 4d phenomenon, that is created in early stages of 4d and continues up to 6d and beyond (as in Ra's case), it means that even at early 4d, all entities would be sharing their OWN selves, leave aside any external objects, work, decision, intent.

'anarchy' is not a concept that can happen in positive 4d. the very society complex concept is one that comes to being when all the members of a 4d society merges their desire and intent in direction of a particular service.

I think that we are referring to the same ideas by 2 different terms. Socialism and "collective socialism" (anarchism) emotional meanings have a long history of enmity due to the "love" of the elite to confuse and create chaos and division. But basically the goals are the same in the way unity100 and Eddie are applying them.

At the beginning of 4th + I can still see some form of government in order to clear things up. But no fear, negative entities cannot exploit at that time.

I think "socialism" is referring to UNITY (necessary to create a soul complex), and "anarchism" as freedom. We can have both. Language has great limitations and one of them is the manipulation that historically, has been given to them. Paraphrasing Derrida: "everything is context".

Nonetheless, I have to say that the paving for 4d+ is happening as we speak and I can see (most probably wanderers) Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales for example, as starting to give some definition to these amorphous concepts (obviously with the help of people voting for them) but it is reassuring they are playing the cards on the same table...

and the elite, blatantly doing, EVERYthing they can, to prevent them. even firing on innocent people from rooftops and then blaming it on them, then staging a coup .....

thankfully, in our contemporary times, direct invasion is not an option anymore. but, they found a way to prepare grounds for a few invasions in this last decade. they have tried to do the same for venezuela too, actually, now come to think of it.

maybe nothing changed since 1800s.

(10-06-2010, 10:54 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]maybe nothing changed since 1800s.

Everything has changed...There is plenty of more Light coming through.
Exciting times are coming ahead.
Be well.

it was supposed to happen with the advancement of the entities on this planet, not mainly with the induction of incoming light energy.

Monica, it's interesting that Lennon had this very idealistic song... but probably locked up his apartment when he went for a walk in the park.

Also there is a fun little discussion of clothing in 4D+ in a "Messages from Matthew" channeling session. Maybe something for the new forum?

Eddie, I believe that u100 is promoting a socialism that is freely chosen by all participants - at least to the extent of respecting a majority vote to live by socialism. A tyrant's impositions would not fit with what he is talking about.

unity, you seem to say that any for-profit venture in the 3D world is inherently STS evil. I disagree, after VERY extensive thought and meditation on this subject.

Profit is simply the result of financial resources provided by those who are served, in excess of the financial cost to provide them with goods or services.

Profit can be reinvested to improve the capacity to serve more people. For example, Henry Ford's memoirs show a positive STO orientation through and through, and describe how he was able to lower the price of his car from almost $1000 to $350, increasing the number of people with the blessing of improved transportation from 18,000 at the high price to over a million at the more affordable price.

Profit can also be taken back out by investors, and reinvested in other ventures by funding equipment, wages, and supplies that enable a product or service to be offered without the initial buyers being burdened by an excessive initial cost.

Profit can be taken out by investors, and used as they choose by their own free will in ways unrelated to business reinvestment. According to their own polarity or lack of it, the money circulates further around the society.

I do not see how any of these three outcomes must be considered inherently evil and selfish.

(10-07-2010, 12:12 AM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]Monica, it's interesting that Lennon had this very idealistic song... but probably locked up his apartment when he went for a walk in the park.

Lennon was a visionary. His faith and trust made him vulnerable, resulting in his premature death. A great tragedy which still brings me to tears just thinking about it...such a bright light snuffed out.

(10-07-2010, 12:12 AM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]Profit can be taken out by investors, and used as they choose by their own free will in ways unrelated to business reinvestment. According to their own polarity or lack of it, the money circulates further around the society.

I do not see how any of these three outcomes must be considered inherently evil and selfish.

What about the competition aspect? The elevating of one's own products while trashing the competition?

profit, is sts. in various levels.

first, profit means, you are gaining more than you are giving. it is not only increasing of interests of self, but also energetically means taking, not even holding/blocking energy. you generate/create X amount of energy/activity, but, when the dust settles, you have more than X worth.

it is a negative energy situation.

Quote:Profit is simply the result of financial resources provided by those who are served, in excess of the financial cost to provide them with goods or services.

it breaks down there in the red underlined part.

as long as you take more than you give, it is a negative energy flow. there is no changing that.

even if you 'invest' that profits to generate 'more jobs' or whatever, it will still be a negative flow, as long as you profit over it.

for anyone to profit over something, there has to be some outer source other than themselves, giving MORE than that party is taking.

basically, for a 'company' of people, investors to be making a profit, someone has to give them MORE than what those group of people are generating. not its exact worth. more.

that means, the other party, will be losing in the process. giving more than what they receive. their situation, energetically, will be in the positive, because they have given more than what they have received.

in addition, the concept of 'investor', 'company', this that are all inherently sts. because, they have discrimination in their fundamentals - its not everyone that benefits, its a group of people. not even the entities participating in the process of generating that energy/action, but, a group of entities, which are defined, get the excess you speak of.

its double negativity here.

had a group of people came together, and worked to create some energy/action, and then took more than the effort they spent for it, but received equal shares, that group would be negative.

however, in this situation a group of very few people called 'investors', 'rights owners' receive all that. and all the ones who are dubbed as 'employees' receive only agreed on, token amounts compared to the shares.

so, in the end, the negative flow ends up being generated through exploitation of others, leave aside taking more from the party that the product/service has been rendered to.

if, the profit is maximized, wages will also generally be minimized. and with minimum wage or lower, the entities who are being exploited in the group ends up little different from literal slaves -> instead of their food directly been given to them, and their shelter, they are being given an amount of money and expected to buy their own food and shelter.

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(10-07-2010, 12:35 AM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]What about the competition aspect? The elevating of one's own products while trashing the competition?

that is another important concept.

competition, is a trait of negative path. instead of cooperation, and everyone receiving equal shares by collaborating in everything, there is a 'winner' in competition, and others dont get anything. eventually, regular winners get ahead of others, become more powerful than others, and subdue others. in current system, it comes up as acquisitions, takeovers, buyouts, majority share ownerships.

basically, the current system we have, provides a state of chaos, under the guise of freedom for the leveling wars of a negative nature to happen. and it only lasts until the hierarchy is established.

had there not been 'socialist' laws breaking up and preventing monopolies, entire countries all wealth and wealth generating means would be owned by a single individual or family by now, on top of the food chain. enough time has passed for it to be possible.

as an example, america was almost owned by 3-4 families in many sectors, in late 19th century. had they not been broken up, those families would be owning entire activity in america by now, thanks to the megacorporations, proxy companies, financial tools that have been developed later in the century.

and now, even despite those laws, the activity in all countries are monopolized by a handful of minority families or wealth groups, and these groups are naturally running everything in the country through the democratic processes, thanks to the power of wealth.

want to get elected ? you cant get elected without getting publicity. want publicity ? you need money. have money ? you have to be on good side of those who monopolize media. are you on good side of them ? then you are already their puppet. so, even having money is irrelevant.

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in regard to my above comment regarding the energy flow, please remember that, each action, choice, state, has counterparts in time/space. leave aside its social implications, any act, state, would also affect not only the society, but also their initiators according to their nature.

(10-06-2010, 11:46 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]it was supposed to happen with the advancement of the entities on this planet, not mainly with the induction of incoming light energy.

Light energy is needed for the Harvest.

One attracts the other in my opinion. As the time line approaches, the elite is working overtime and the instigation of negative actions are going up (mass media being such an important tool that I just check the headlines to see what they are up to). But the main point is the general consciousness of/in the planet. How can we bring light/love in specific situations we find everyday?

One thing appears clear: this planet will be 4d+ in spite of the negativity that APPEARS to be surrounding the planet.

I agree that an oligarchy of self-serving elites can, have, and still do manipulate democracy and capitalism.

I agree that competition can be a tool of self-serving elites towards destruction of diversity (the ruthless monopoly model), rather than a continuous learning from one another in aspiration towards excellence in service (the Olympic ideal).

I agree that profit can be a tool of enforced extraction at the cost of those actually doing the productive work.

Agreeing to that, and with all respect, I believe that your insistence that all profit is inherently evil, and that the capitalist system cannot be a tool of service to others, is naive and unwise. With utmost respect, I believe your concerns are a perfect example of loving selflessness unbalanced by the next step up in wisdom. Please notice I am not saying your desire to be loving, to serve others and to seek a just world is naive. I am saying that the intellectual principles you advocate seem to me to be incomplete.

If you've not read Henry Ford's book, I encourage you to do so. Pretty much every concern you have about capitalism, he specifically addresses from the point of view of service to others.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7213/pg7213.html

I'm not going to agree that capitalism is always inherently evil, socialism inherently loving, wise, and just, within our 3D human world of today. I'm not going to agree that one who wishes to serve and love one's fellow men and women must abdicate any thought of profit. I'm not going to agree that if one happens to be in a capitalist society, the only moral option is to agitate for or move to a political system based on socialism.

I believe that such black and white thinking is based on sincere concern, which I respect. I also believe the black and white thinking applies concepts that are misinformed and unrealistic. Again, this comes from a great depth of study, meditation, thought and intuitive exploration of these topics for many years. I may well be mistaken, but I'm unlikely to have overlooked the obvious.

Any human system in 3D is imperfect. I believe Ford shows a way to love our neighbor through effective business within a capitalist economy.

Questioner,

You have such a lovely and diplomatic way of expressing yourself. Much appreciation to you for that

Quote:Any human system in 3D is imperfect. I believe Ford shows a way to love our neighbor through effective business within a capitalist economy.

That makes alot of sense, in our 3-D reality, there is not a perfect system, because all them have those who want power over others manipulating the system. And all of them have opportunities for people to polarize either way. Simply because that is the nature of 3-D.

(10-07-2010, 11:43 AM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that an oligarchy of self-serving elites can, have, and still do manipulate democracy and capitalism.

I agree that competition can be a tool of self-serving elites towards destruction of diversity (the ruthless monopoly model), rather than a continuous learning from one another in aspiration towards excellence in service (the Olympic ideal).

I agree that profit can be a tool of enforced extraction at the cost of those actually doing the productive work.

Agreeing to that, and with all respect, I believe that your insistence that all profit is inherently evil, and that the capitalist system cannot be a tool of service to others, is naive and unwise. With utmost respect, I believe your concerns are a perfect example of loving selflessness unbalanced by the next step up in wisdom. Please notice I am not saying your desire to be loving, to serve others and to seek a just world is naive. I am saying that the intellectual principles you advocate seem to me to be incomplete.

its not 'insistence'. its an axiom. a direct result, a logical result. its not sentimental or something else.

taking more than you give, is, a negative flow. it doesnt matter with what intent you do it, or for what intent you use it. it will still be a negative energetic situation.

the wisdom is in here. no amount of love will change a negative energy flow from being a negative energy flow.

it may offset its consequences. it may prevent any side effects, it may do this or that.

but, taking more than you give, will always be a negative energy flow.

wisdom != negativity.

ie, 5d wisdom does not mean that you go negative, while trying to offset excess love and balance it.

wisdom means, knowledge and understanding of the dance, and acting accordingly.

therefore, from wisdom perspective, nomatter how greatly offset a negative energy flow with love, that energy flow, will keep being a negative energy flow in its core.

Quote:If you've not read Henry Ford's book, I encourage you to do so. Pretty much every concern you have about capitalism, he specifically addresses from the point of view of service to others.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7213/pg7213.html

henry ford's intent in serving others, does not change the fact that he took more than he gave. moreover, it doesnt change the fact that his workers didnt get equal share from what they worked on.

moreover, it doesnt change the fact that, after henry ford is gone, that big company he created, stood as just another big company for minority shareholder benefit, and acted accordingly.

in short - it doesnt matter whether one sets up an empire with the best of intentions and brings luxuries and ease to people. an empire, is still an empire.

Quote:I believe that such black and white thinking is based on sincere concern, which I respect. I also believe the black and white thinking applies concepts that are misinformed and unrealistic. Again, this comes from a great depth of study, meditation, thought and intuitive exploration of these topics for many years. I may well be mistaken, but I'm unlikely to have overlooked the obvious.

Any human system in 3D is imperfect. I believe Ford shows a way to love our neighbor through effective business within a capitalist economy.

there has to be black and white thinking, until early 6d. unfortunately, this is the way this universe was set up. i dont particularly like this situation myself, or find the polarity business efficient and compassionate at all. however, this is the way it is for now, until new things are discovered. moreover, its my understanding that, from what we have been told, the situation wont change in 6d, only just one polarity will remain, but, now with the wisdom of the light.

in addition, at no point i am receptive to being enslaved to any minority, regardless of who that minority happens to be.

however, entities on this planet have to polarize to get to 4d and beyond. just like that, there are other base rules, logic acting just as they were set to act, with no concessions.

that is wisdom. just like how light goes in a straight line unless affected.

if i need to repeat again - a negative flow, is a negative flow. intentions, do not matter, in regard to negative flow. even if one is the purest of all entities that have come and passed from this universe, a negative flow, is still going to remain a negative flow.

Quote:ny human system in 3D is imperfect. I believe Ford shows a way to love our neighbor through effective business within a capitalist economy.

human systems being imperfect doesnt justify setting up and furthering a negative based system in which entities are perfectly 'willingly' enslaved for the benefit of minorities.

Have you actually read Ford's book?
How much do you know about him and his business?

In my own personal opinion, this book is one of the greatest devotional books of all time. I believe it is a profound, deeply thought, carefully worded and thoroughly inspiring example of how the individual person can aspire to a greatness of spirit, through serving others in business.

Ford specifically addresses many key points in his book.
He continuously points out that this is an imperfect world, but we can work together to make it better.
He discusses product development as a form of service to others, to help lessen the burdens of this imperfect world.
He discusses manufacturing operations as a form of service to others, further lessening burdens of this imperfect world.
He discusses retail distribution, sales, and service as a form of service to others, with the same purposes.
He discusses financial management as a form of service to others. He is quite outspoken and direct about what is right and wrong for investors to expect or claim from a business.
He discusses the need for ever lower prices so that service can be provided to more people. He rocked the world with his insistence on this point.
He discusses the need for ever higher wages so that service can be provided to more people. He rocked the world here as well.
He discusses the transformation of a luxury for the few idle rich, into a huge relief of a painful burden of life for the masses. He also discusses how his personal vision of reduced pain in farm life may have saved England in WWI. I did not know either of these aspects of his work with tractors until I read his book. Do you already know all about these things?

Of course he made mistakes. Of course he had to learn from others. The moving assembly line came from suggestions of others in his company. His excessive opposition to unions only broke because of what his wife said to him. The important thing here is that he did seriously consider what other people had to say, and at times modified his point of view as he learned new perspectives.

If you're just going to dismiss all of this, we can't have much of a productive conversation.

The key point is the definition of value. I suppose it might be a tenet from Marx and Engels that the value of a good cannot possibly exceed its immediate manufacturing cost. I do not believe Marx and Engels were divinely inspired, infallible, or consistently seeking to be of service to others. I do believe they are less reliable guides to a life of productive service than Ford.

Your claim that profit and wages are inherent forms of slavery are specifically addressed and debunked by Ford's book, and more importantly, by his life's work. I feel that I am inviting you to a dialog, and you're continuing to repeat secondhand opinions of others about what profit, wages, work, and business can really mean in this imperfect world.

I believe that if more businesses were run according to Ford's principles, there would be less minority enslavement possible.

What other people did with Ford's company after his death has nothing to do with the power of his own ideas. Nor do the mistakes of other people, after he died, take away from what I see as a tremendous loving heart of service behind those ideas.