Bring4th

I recently read an interesting essay by the physicist Roger Penrose (one of the truly great physicists of today - and not one of those second rate pseudo-scientists who claim to be). It described his Conformal Cyclic Cosmology theory. I won't bother you with the details of this theory (you can google them if you are interested and can handle the math), but just wanted to give some of the interesting ideas found within.

The theory looks at the very early stages of the universe (the so-called "big-bang") where everything is packed into a very space hot area, and at the distant future when everything has coalesced into cold black holes spread extremely far apart. These two extremes seem to be as different as different can be, but he shows that in a very profound mathematical and physical sense they are effectively identical. Because of this identity one could consider one extreme as being continuous with the other (or another). That is, the infinitely spread-out cold universe of the infinite future is the super hot infinitely dense singularity of the next big bang.

While the math is rather advanced (at least the ideas underlying them), the intuition is surprisingly simple and has to do with the properties of light. At the moment of the big bang every thing is essentially light or gravitons. In the far future, after all the black holes have evaporated (due to Hawking radiation) there will only be photons (light) and gravitons (gravity waves). That is the first key idea. The second key idea is that there is no way to measure the passage of time with only photons (or gravitons). For a photon there is no time, all times are the same to it. This means that an infinite time is nothing to it. This is what allows the connection between the infinite time in the future and the next big bang to make sense (for a physicist!), and is also where the "conformal" term comes in. Basically the conformal aspect means that you can scale the universe in time and space so that even an infinite space and time can be squished down to a point without changing the local physical laws.

How does this relate to the LOO? It is because the cyclical nature of the universe described by this theory are reminiscent of the octaves mentioned by Ra. There is room in the theory for the laws of physics to change in crossing over from infinite future to the next big-bang.

Anyways, this theory is quite thought-provoking and I encourage any of you that are up on math and physics and recent theories of cosmology to check it out.

Thank you for posting this. I can't claim to be up to the math, but the idea behind it seems simple, profound, and, as you say, harmonious with the cyclical nature of creation described by Ra.

Thanks Etude. Along with βαθμιαίος, I need to thank you from the sidelines.

I studied math through algebra/trig. When I see an equation and a graph, I can study and eventually recognize the connection. It's not at all intuitive for me, it takes a lot of work that never happens with one glance. I know a little bit about the ideas of calculus, but never fully studied it. Any physics that is based on equations is something I can only respect from a distance. It seems that it's probably too late in this lifetime for me to really understand the math used by people like Penrose.

I don't understand how infinitely spread out expansion can be the same as infinitely compressed singularity. That just boggles my brain.

(10-10-2010, 12:52 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]I don't understand how infinitely spread out expansion can be the same as infinitely compressed singularity. That just boggles my brain.

Point Infinity is the same point no matter which of the infinite ways the universe approaches it? So, infinitely expanding to reach Point Infinity is the same result as infinitely contracting into Point Infinity...

One way of looking at it is that there are physical quantities for which time does not matter (or exist) and others for which space does not matter (or exist). An example of the former is a photon. I can't think of an example of the latter. Perhaps a graviton is one (don't know). Time is meaningless for a photon. So infinite times or zero time is irrelevant. At the very earliest stages of the universe and at times far in the future, these are the only type of physical quantities that are present.

Thanks for posting this, Etude. I was just speculating about this to myself last month whilst reading the latest issue of Scientific American, in which that issue's theme was 'The End'. One aspect of 'The End' that they tried to investigate was the end of time, and what that could possibly mean. They didn't link it up to this theory that Penrose gives us, but they did describe how at the end of all things in our universe there are nothing but extremely large black holes, which, having nothing to consume eventually evaporate away over mind bogglingly long periods of time. After that, as you say, there is nothing with that can be compared to anything else in any meaningful way and thus the concept of time is seen as meaningless.

As has been happening often lately, this train of thought has been echoed in a few other threads here, namely:
- Why would the Creator elect suffering for ITself? - http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=1660
- 2nd LOO Question: Creation - http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=1583

Also, there is this to consider:

Quote:28.15 Questioner: Are you saying then that there are an infinite number of octaves of densities one through eight?

Ra: I am Ra. We wish to establish that we are truly humble messengers of the Law of One. We can speak to you of our experiences and our understandings and teach/learn in limited ways. However, we cannot speak in firm knowledge of all the creations. We know only that they are infinite. We assume an infinite number of octaves.

However, it has been impressed upon us by our own teachers that there is a mystery-clad unity of creation in which all consciousness periodically coalesces and again begins. Thus we can only say we assume an infinite progression though we understand it to be cyclical in nature and, as we have said, clad in mystery.

For a while there was a theory going around called 'the Big Crunch' that Stephen Hawking proposed, which is basically the reverse of the big bang. This sounds very much like what Ra is talking about. However we know now with current physics that this can't happen thanks to dark energy, which is pushing and expanding the universe at an ever faster pace. Gravity can never overcome this energy, so it is presumed the universe will expand out forever.

But, we also now know that black holes are far more common in the universe than we thought they were. In fact, it is thought now that every galaxy in the universe harbors a super-massive black hole at it's center. There are more spiritual ramifications to these ideas as well, but for the purpose of this topic, it can be seen that if all matter and energy are eventually absorbed in to black holes at the end of all things, it can be seen to be no different than a big crunch. Everything crunches eventually, worded differently. Or per Ra, all consciousness periodically coalesces (black hole universe ending) and begins again (Penrose cyclic cosmology)

Great topic.

Love and Light, Lavazza

Hey, I was doing some snooping around the internet after becoming interested in Penrose's theories... Came across this great video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OutKE3tyG94

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