Bring4th

Hey gang,

I've been wondering exactly what Scientology is all about for a while. I started doing some internet research but so far, although I found a ton of sites, they all seem to be either A. sites founded and funded by the Scientology organization(s), or B. sites that were founded and funded by ex-Scientology members, hell bent on "bringing the truth to light". Honestly, I don't think either type is really going to be too helpful for me.

Can anyone provide some un-biased resources, or perhaps weigh in with your own experiences / knowledge? Especially in so far as how it can relate or work with the Law of One. I'm cool with this thread going in any which direction that conversation dictates.

thanks,
Lavazza

Hi Lavazza
I don't know much about it at all, but the BBC recently did a documentary on it which can be viewed here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00v1ykr

Oh, A friend told me about a panorama documentary in the UK on this. She'd been blown away by it.

I've not seen it, he's a well known reporter and had done an earlier one and had got slammed for it, so had gone back again to uncover it. She told me about levels similar to Masonic, and higher up the belief in some spaceship crashing and bubbles in a mountain or something. It may be worth looking for it, he’d interviewed x members.

http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2010/09...ientology/

Ah here you go http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00v1ykr - the 2nd documentory, I've not watched it so can't comment.

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Oh haha Lorna You beat me x

It seems like Hubbard was channelling (probably unconsciously) something close to Law of One, albeit possibly from a negative source. If you read their core beliefs, which are reserved for members who have made large sum donations to the group, you can kind of trace it back to LOO. Although since Hubbard was a science fiction writer, his imagination could have also tainted what information he received.

lol! yeah, i watched the one in 2007 but don't remember much about it other than being shocked at the amount of pressure the journalist was put under and how closely he was being watched - it got quite a lot of attention at the time. i'm still hoping to get time to watch the new programme to see how he's followed it up. he's a good journalist, think he was the guy who uncovered the problems with sally clark cot death conviction

a negative hierarchy social construct.

(10-13-2010, 05:45 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]a negative hierarchy social construct.

It's hard not to conclude that after watching the BBC documentary.. Wow. Yes, if what that film shows is in any way accurate then we can see that there are indeed quite a few negatively influenced ideas, and ideals... The part about separating from family members is especially heart breaking. And their "fair game" philosophy speaks for itself.

Although, I'm sure it, Scientology, is helpful too. Apparently they have a huge success rate in treating people with addiction. At what cost though, is the question I suppose. What are the other positive aspects? I really want to learn all sides to this topic.

Also, the part about Scientology ministers coming to disaster relief areas, I can attest to this. My neighborhood was impacted by a disaster about a month ago and they made their presence known. (all is well with the Lavazza family by the way, disaster avoided)

(10-13-2010, 06:03 PM)Lavazza Wrote: [ -> ]It's hard not to conclude that after watching the BBC documentary.. Wow. Yes, if what that film shows is in any way accurate then we can see that there are indeed quite a few negatively influenced ideas, and ideals... The part about separating from family members is especially heart breaking. And their "fair game" philosophy speaks for itself.

Scientology is just more notorious than others because they attract the rich and famous, but other religions have similar policies. I have a friend who belongs to a religion called The Brethren who has not been allowed to see or even talk to her son for many years, because he dared to leave the church. They consider everyone else 'outsiders' and are not allowed to step inside non-church-members' homes. She wants out but feels she can't leave, because her whole life is wrapped up in the church. She would lose her husband, etc. and thinks would have no means of making a living. It's sad. She has joined an internet support group for people trying to get their families back after leaving the church.

Classic 'cult' conditioning.

(10-13-2010, 06:03 PM)Lavazza Wrote: [ -> ]Although, I'm sure it, Scientology, is helpful too. Apparently they have a huge success rate in treating people with addiction. At what cost though, is the question I suppose. What are the other positive aspects? I really want to learn all sides to this topic.

I know several Scientologists and once attended a seminar which turned out to be an invitation to Scientology, under the guise of a business meeting. They do indeed have some useful techniques, in particular a technique called the tone scale, which is a technique for raising a negative emotion to positive in increments. I found this useful.

My Scientology friends don't seem evil at all, but one thing I've noticed they all have in common: an intensity. They're just really, really intense people. Power seems very important to them. They are casual friends, business acquaintances actually, so I really don't know them all that well personally. It's just an observation.

(10-13-2010, 06:03 PM)Lavazza Wrote: [ -> ]Also, the part about Scientology ministers coming to disaster relief areas, I can attest to this. My neighborhood was impacted by a disaster about a month ago and they made their presence known. (all is well with the Lavazza family by the way, disaster avoided)

Yes, that's true. Something amusing though potentially destructive happened recently...My company published a picture of people using our water machine to donate medical-grade water to Haiti victims. But when I saw the pic on our corporate website, I immediately notices several people in Scientology t-shirts! They weren't members of our team, but were standing off to the side.

I immediately called our office and told them that Scientology is rather, ahem, controversial, and was it intentional to feature Scientology on our international website?

Being Japanese, they had no idea what Scientology was but definitely didn't want to be affiliated with something so controversial, so they cropped the pix.

Anyway, just as with other religions that may be STS in their hierarchial structure, there are undoubtedly many members who manage to polarize STO despite the inherent STS influences. There does seem to be a blatant and powerful control structure in Scientology. There have even been accusations of criminal activity, but I have no idea whether that's true or not.

Controversies

Quote:Hubbard continued to codify the policy of "attacking the attacker" and assigned a term to it that is used frequently within Scientology: "dead agenting." Used as a verb, "dead agenting" is described by Hubbard as a technique for countering negative accusations against Scientology by diverting the critical statements and making counter-accusations against the accuser (in other words, "attack the attacker").

That sounds pretty STS to me. But nothing different than what our political campaigns routinely do. And many individuals, caught in their own blockages, do, in order to avoid looking in the mirror.

But Scientology is supposed to be a religion. So that's pretty blatant STS philosophy, for a religion.

The Scientologists I know clearly believe they are doing good. They engage in charitable activities and help others. As always, I would separate the people from the possibly STS-based structure they are involved with.

While there might be some useful ideas, techniques and knowledge to be found in Scientology, it's not anything that can't be found elsewhere. Why subject oneself to indoctrination and control, just to get some knowledge, when knowledge can be had for free?

It's highly questionable whether the knowledge is even worthwhile, anyway. Hubbard was a sci-fi writer, so there is speculation that he made it all up, for kicks, and then laughed his way to the bank.

The beliefs themselves are really creepy, imo. Straight out of a Star Trek episode...creepy aliens, humans just being automatons, and all that. That, methinks, is a clue as to its inherent polarity!

where was that new 'non l&l channeled material' forum again ?

(10-13-2010, 06:42 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]where was that new 'non l&l channeled material' forum again ?

Gary's getting it ready...should go live soon. Part of the delay is in deciding on the guidelines...Case in point: Is Scientology considered channeled?

technically couldnt, since ron hubbard was an incarnated entity. he may have got help of disincarnate sources. but that also goes for any human being on earth.

(10-13-2010, 07:06 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]technically couldnt, since ron hubbard was an incarnated entity. he may have got help of disincarnate sources. but that also goes for any human being on earth.

True. I thought maybe you were suggesting this thread go into the new forum...?

Brilliant post, Monica, thank you! Very informative.

I definitely agree with your assessment that those involved in a negatively oriented organization may in fact be themselves quite positive. Afterall, we are just humble third density entities, and we all have such diverse life experiences and histories. We try, but always come up short of perfection. We can only follow that which we deem to be the highest truth, no? I'm sure they would take an equal view of us with out philosophy that has it's origins in Ufology. Bless them.

May I suggest that for the "outside channeling" forum, we only discuss sources that explicitly claim to be channeled. As far as I know, L. Ron Hubbard never claimed that his religious tenets came from channeling. I don't know of any claim from him that he experienced an altered state of consciousness, in which a personality conversed with him or downloaded information to his awareness as the foundation of his teachings.

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Lavazza, I believe that Scientology is a very dangerous and destructive cult.

I believe that sprinkled throughout L. Ron Hubbard's material are a few unique and helpful insights. I believe he also included a few commonplace helpful ideas, expressed with useful, fresh, memorable turns of phrase. I also believe that there are many sincere, kind hearted people involved with Scientology who would like to help their fellow man, and sometimes do so in generous nonprofit ways.

I believe that both the insights and the charitable work would be better served if they were entirely removed from any association with Hubbard.

It's not clear to me how much of Hubbard's material came from his own imagination, that he knew to be false; how much came from his own imagination, that he bamboozled even himself into thinking was the truth; and how much was from evil spiritual forces or negative people who influenced him.

I believe that any student of the Law of One, seeking to polarize on a positive path, will be well served by staying as far away as possible from anything having to do with Scientology. I believe that a study of Scientology's tenets and practices, its history, Hubbard's life and times, the opposition to Scientology and the church's responses to its opponents, will only increasingly serve to warn off open-hearted spiritual seekers from this highly manipulative service-to-self based, negatively hierarchical organization.

I'm at a loss as to how any unique core tenets of Scientology could be considered compatible with the Law of One teachings from Ra and Q'uo. (As with any cult, I believe it's important to clarify what is unique to the cult's teaching, and what is simply plagiarized, misappropriated, and distorted from other sources.)

I'm willing to discuss all of this further.

Hi All,

Lavazza, I have some experience with this organization...When I was seven I moved from my fathers home in Mi. to live with my mother in NV. Her boyfriend lived with us and he was a long time Scientologist... For four years while they were together we went to the church and my mother and I both took courses. When they broke up and he moved away, we broke off all contact with him and the church. I loved him like a step-father and felt very close to him. He was in my opinion very sto.

later when I was 23 I was at a very low point in my life and decided that maybe Scientology had some answers for me... I was quickly taken in by what I was learning but mostly by the people...They seemed to genuinely care for me and listened intently to what I had to say. I felt special and necessary...I wanted to save the world and they had the same goal. "Clear the planet" was a phrase I heard often.

I couldn't afford many of the courses I wanted to take so they offered to let me do odd jobs (cleaning and filing) around the church to help pay for some of them.
After awhile I started to feel pressured...They kept asking me to join and sign a contact with them that would allow me to take all the courses for free- all I had to do was work for them full time. I was not interested and told them this many times, but they kept asking and asking. Finally one evening when I was very upset about something personal two of them called me into a private office. I was crying and I thought they were going to help me deal with my personal issue. We talked a little about what was bothering me but then they told me how much they needed me. How important I was to helping the planet.

They asked me things like- "you want to help right?" "You know the people on this planet need help right?" Well after about 20min of this they pulled out the contract and explained that I would be serving the planet by working with them. The contract was for 30 million years because once this planet was cleared we would move and work with a new planet. I signed the contract even though I didn't really feel right about it...But I felt like if I didn't- then I was a bad person.

They gave me some paper work to fill out at home. It was a history of everything I have ever done... questions like...

How many times have you used drugs- where and when? (be specific)
Have you ever stolen anything- where and when?
How many times have you had sex- with who, where and when?

Stuff like that. I was supposed to turn it in before I started work. I tried to remember everything but seriously who remembers every time they smoked a joint, or drank a beer, or had sex with their boyfriend, or even took a quarter out of their mom purse for a piece of candy.

I turned it in and they made copies of it and told me to try to remember more.

My boyfriend (current husband) freaked out when I told him about it and said that I was being manipulated and I should never go back... I listened and started to see that he was right.

This is my personal experience and in no way do I think that it reflects the whole- but since you asked... lol

One thing I would like to point out...There are some very helpful techniques in dealing with pain and injury and also helping with drug and alcohol treatment.

Examples: Touch assist- touching certain points on an injured person. This helps to make the person more aware of the body and assist in energy flow to injured areas.

Contact assist- When a person is injured you recreate the injury as close as possible to the actual event. This help with any energy blockages, or negative feelings created from the injury and speeds healing.

Locational Processing- Pointing out object in the immediate area to someone like, look at that tree, look at the flower. This help someone who is upset or focusing on a upsetting or stressful situation. This can also help someone who is on drugs or alcohol to shake off the effects.

All of these techniques work (in my opinion) by helping someone become more conscious of the moment. And they are not new concepts.

If you want to read about them here is a link (for reference)... click here

So that's my input... I hope it helps.
zanny

That's interesting Zanny and a bit freaky

My other half mentioned Scientology representatives were same place every day in Brighton. He walked past them every day for years, they never stopped him.

One day he asked them - 'I've walked past you for years and seen you stop people, Why not me?'

They asked if he'd ever taken LDS (he has huge dreds) - he said yes, they just said to him our ‘techniques’ don't work on people who have taken LSD.

(10-13-2010, 07:11 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-13-2010, 07:06 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]technically couldnt, since ron hubbard was an incarnated entity. he may have got help of disincarnate sources. but that also goes for any human being on earth.

True. I thought maybe you were suggesting this thread go into the new forum...?

i just couldnt find where that forum was. thats all.

(10-14-2010, 04:05 AM)@ndy Wrote: [ -> ]They asked if he'd ever taken LDS (he has huge dreds) - he said yes, they just said to him our ‘techniques’ don't work on people who have taken LSD.

Oh wow. Very telling! Being that LSD can open up areas of the mind hitherto closed...perhaps those who've dropped acid aren't as easily manipulated?

I am reminded of my fundamentalist brother, who says he can spot those who've ever smoked pot. He says their minds are changed. I say: for the better! They've been awakened and are no longer susceptible to indoctrination.

hmmm...

(10-14-2010, 04:16 AM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]I am reminded of my fundamentalist brother, who says he can spot those who've ever smoked pot. He says their minds are changed. I say: for the better! They've been awakened and are no longer susceptible to indoctrination.

Some of the most viciously manipulated & manipulative STS people I've ever known are heavy pot users. These people are heavily indoctrinated and try to indoctrinate others pretty much nonstop. Based on my experiences with these people, I respectfully disagree with the premise that pot is always mind expanding in a positive way. I don't think this is really relevant to Scientology, is it?

(10-14-2010, 10:53 AM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]Some of the most viciously manipulated & manipulative STS people I've ever known are heavy pot users. These people are heavily indoctrinated and try to indoctrinate others pretty much nonstop. Based on my experiences with these people, I respectfully disagree with the premise that pot is always mind expanding in a positive way.

I didn't use the word 'always.'

Although, neither did I use the word 'perhaps.' For clarification, I will rephrase:

Perhaps what my brother is noticing is that those people have been awakened and are no longer susceptible to indoctrination. Or perhaps it's just his bias.

(10-14-2010, 10:53 AM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think this is really relevant to Scientology, is it?

It was a passing comment, in response to a comment about Scientology and LSD. Pot, LSD, mushrooms, etc. are considered mind-expanding drugs for a reason. My suggestion was that maybe some people who have indulged in those drugs might be less susceptible to indoctrination, and maybe that's why they state that their techniques don't work on those who've dropped acid. I can only speculate whether they've noticed any differences in responses in those who've smoked pot.

It is only a passing comment about a passing observation and speculation.

I respect your opinion, based on your experience, but respectfully, I don't think either of us can claim an absolute based on the observation of a few people. STS people can be found anywhere, in any religion, lifestyle, or subculture. It isn't necessarily because of a single aspect of that person's lifestyle. I don't think there is an absolute regarding pot, religion, or anything else.

Thanks for clarifying, Monica. I didn't realize that you weren't making an absolute statement. I have no problem agreeing with your "perhaps" and "might." Since this is about a misperception on my part, and it's not about Scientology, please feel free to delete my post if it detracts too much from the discussion of the Hubbard club hubbub.

Zanny, thank you for sharing your story! We're such a great melting pot of experience here at Bring4th. I knew I would get some great insight- kudos to you all.

Questioner, so far I am in agreement with your assessment of Scientology. So far here are my biggest red flags about the STS nature of the organization, based on what we've mentioned here and what I saw in the BBC documentary yesterday.

- "Us vs. Them" mentality. This is never helpful... we are One. Even if you want to just read that as we are one race of human beings on Earth. Separation is not a helpful premise to start on.
- "Attack the Attacker". Again this is more of the same 2nd density pack mentality / defense mechanism that totally bypasses the Heart chakra and closes it down fast.
- the Hundreds of Millions or Billion year long "contract". STO mentality would instead just trust that help will always be available, STS would try to control the game as much as possible.
- The required gathering of extremely private information for the purpose of insuring members don't get out of line in the future.
- The required breaking of ties with non-Scientology family members... yuck.
- Trust and faith in a single leader, whose actions can not be critiqued
- Hierarchical structure of advancement within the 'ranks'.
- The presumption that non-Scientologists are being controlled by bad guy "Theta" aliens, which need to be exorcised. This may be the most dangerous- humans have throughout history justified evil actions by claiming their opponents are not fully human.
- Payment being required of aspiring Scientologists for courses rather than information freely given.
- Celebrities being targeted for inclusion in to the "church" for better PR and of course... revenue.
- The lofty goal of "clearing the planet". It's ok to have goals, but I would worry that this is sort of a crusader mentality. No thanks.

There may be more, but those stand out the most to me. Of course on the plus side, they do seem to have a great reputation for rehabilitation as we've also discussed. In that sense, as we've all agreed, it's not entirely bad. Nothing is ever entirely bad, or entirely good. But wow, I'll be avoiding any Scientology missionaries from here out.

A secondary question is... in light of all the points I listed above, how has Scientology grown so large? Can their reputation of rehabilitation and charitable workings really outshine all those negative aspects? Then again, I suppose the same question could be asked of many, many other movements, groups, philosophies and et cetera.

L&L, Lavazza

(10-14-2010, 12:23 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for clarifying, Monica. I didn't realize that you weren't making an absolute statement. I have no problem agreeing with your "perhaps" and "might."

No prob. I was in a hurry when I posted that and should have been more 'clear.'

Monica, is this the cult you were talking about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Brethren

(10-14-2010, 12:36 PM)Lavazza Wrote: [ -> ]A secondary question is... in light of all the points I listed above, how has Scientology grown so large? Can their reputation of rehabilitation and charitable workings really outshine all those negative aspects? Then again, I suppose the same question could be asked of many, many other movements, groups, philosophies and et cetera.

L&L, Lavazza

Just pondering your questions

I think they have the hard sell, also like someone mentioned, if they come at people in a dark hr... they are more vulnerable.

The way they mentioned 'techniques' suggests there good at what they do. I'd assume the bad points we mentioned would be totally unknown to most people, and they would at lower levels be very much STO

Many people are also hungry for answers, as much as we may understand this isn't the place of knowing it doesn’t stop us having questions. Faith is a funny thing

For most people in the west Christianity is there main choice of a spiritual dish - while most would agree with the teachings of Christ, belief in the bible as the 'Word of God' isn't for everyone and isn't it around 50% of people with a belief in reincarnation?

I tried the Alpha course this year. That very much comes at Christianity from a spiritual point - with much emphasis on the ‘Holy Spirit’ It has a similar draw for people searching for answers.

@ndy, I was also invited to an "Alpha course" series a couple of years ago. For those who don't know, it's a video series of talks by Anglican minister Nicky Gumbel. He explains evangelical Christian beliefs in a way that can appeal to the modern day "spiritual seeker."

I attended. I don't know if this is standard for the course, but it was a weekly series of evenings with dinner provided, video presentation and discussion around tables. People were with the same table group throughout the series.

I think Alpha is very different from Scientology. For one thing, Alpha has a free, open-book disclosure of everything they promote.

Curiously enough I've seen that Alpha is controversial among the evangelical Christian community. Some love that it brings in spiritual seekers. Some are opposed to what they see as the course's misinterpretation of Biblical tenets about spiritual gifts and prophecy.

Another giant contrast with Scientology is the role of Nicky Gumbel in Alpha. He certainly is an appealing public speaker, but the Alpha course is not dependent on alleged divine revelation that came only through that one man. If he died today, the course would continue with other people using some of his material, some of their own views about the Bible, and various other strands of evangelical Christian traditions. A hundred years from now, if there's still a 3D world of seekers, Alpha might still be around and would not have any need to make a patron saint out of Nicky - the way the Scientology considers L. Ron the infallible guru, first and only human to Know The Truth.™

Your right Questioner, I wasn't drawing similarities in the 2 areas.

Just that they may both appeal to people seeking

Since we're on the detour, did you have a similar experience with the Alpha course? It would be interesting if someone went through that, and also a Scientology introduction, so they could compare these experiences.

I connected strongly with the Vicar's wife and remain friends with him and her. I have ties to the Church too as my daughter attends nursery and I'm on there social and fundraising committee

My experience was very similar to what you describe.
I've recently been talking to the Vicar again about the continuation of my seeking - the dreams I have and things I write, he's really interested.
I've not gone into to much detail out of respect for what he believes in - we talked about spiritual cleansing.
He has visions when he prays so was really interested in my journey, he's twice given me the message of dragon when we have prayed together ......and he understands the reason I can't accept his religion completely as my belief in reincarnation, but is quite open as there being many ways to find God and is up for discussion.

Did you do a Holy Spirit weekend? We just did a morning, where the Holy Spirit was invited into the room and to enter people and then share experiences, visions and such.

You have a closer connection with Alpha's home church than I do. I am glad to hear that there's some degree of open mindedness. This doesn't surprise me, based on the content of the course.

The Alpha sessions I attended were all very friendly. They seemed to be about loving spiritual seekers into accepting evangelical Christianity, in a fairly literal doctrinal sense.

The course was a few years ago now. I remember that there was an invitation to a follow-up H.S. Saturday session, but I think I didn't attend. Not sure now if I had a health problem that day, prior commitment or just why I didn't go.

Shortly after the course, I withdrew from the church where Alpha was presented. This was for reasons unrelated to the Alpha Course.

I think I'll start a new thread in Life on Earth about those church experiences.