Full Version: Are martyrs actually selfish auto-addicts?
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(05-18-2019, 10:10 AM)Glow Wrote: [ -> ]Might you just be irritated with Jade because she is mirroring back your own energy of assured correctness.
No offence intended but we all need a mirror,

Ah, thanks for saying this Glow, I had a part about this in the post I just made, but I deleted it. But in my estimation, I feel like often the problem is not that I speak as an authority, it's that I speak with authority (because of my familiarity with the material) and it's not so common, especially in the Law of One community, for someone to speak with such a "male" tone while coming from such an obviously female body. I know it's offputting, even for me sometimes! But the fact is, I've had this "voice" since I started posting here, well before I was a moderator. At heart I'm a geek so when I'm into something, I study it in depth, and when I geek about it, well, sometimes shaping that energy as it emerges is difficult. And with this, it feels even more important. My point is to never call someone out personally, even if the intensity of my emotional energy feels that way. I am often more aware of the unnamed lurkers than those who are regular posters. I don't want the random person who landed here from a google search to absorb more confusion from a very confused OP. Or at least, I want them to see a well articulated version of the opposite opinion, for balance. Otherwise people WILL think that L/L supports negative interpretations of the philosophy, if they happen to land on a thread with negative philosophy that is never challenged. And for those who are lonely enough to seek community with others through this medium, many of them will be further isolated if all they see is a rehash of alt-right philosophy through a metaphysical lens. There are plenty of communities these days to discuss this viewpoint, though I know some of them have been deplatformed for being a hub for hate speech (such as /r/thegreatawakening), so there seems to be a need to fight against that tide. We are here to discuss the Law of One, with service to others as a focus. In fact, at it's heart, this thread (and many others) are against the rules and guidelines that go against promoting negative philosophies. The idea that martyrs are bad and selfish people who do more harm to others than good is a negative philosophy.

Quote:5) Negative Philosophies
Ours is a forum dedicated to the exploration, promotion, and living of the service-to-others polarity as defined in the Law of One material. This does not mean that discussions about the service-to-self polarity are prohibited, only that promotion of philosophies and information which:

*exhibit elements of deception and manipulative thinking
*generate fear
*reject or discourage universal love
*encourage or promote control of self or others

are considered to be not in alignment with the principles of spiritual evolution espoused by Confederation sources and are thus subject to moderation and/or removal.

And in my estimation, this thread hits the first three quite squarely. However, instead of starting a moderator email about potentially deleting something I disagree with, I used my own time and energy to create a counter argument, and one that I firmly believe in, since I very firmly, personally and spiritually, disagree with the position of the OP. I'm not going to write a PM to redchartreuse because I'm not speaking to them for breaking the rules as a moderator, I'm speaking to them, as an ingenuous geek, dismayed that someone would twist the philosophy this way - a philosophy meant to generate light, not snuff it out.
Quote:42.6 ▶ Questioner: In the last session you made the statement that “We, that is Ra, spent much time/space in the fifth density balancing the intense compassion gained in fourth density.” Could you expand on this concept with respect to what we were just discussing?

Ra: I am Ra. The fourth density, as we have said, abounds in compassion. This compassion is folly when seen through the eyes of wisdom. It is the salvation of third density but creates a mismatch in the ultimate balance of the entity.

Thus we, as a social memory complex of fourth density, had the tendency towards compassion even to martyrdom in aid of other-selves. When the fifth-density harvest was achieved we found that in this vibratory level flaws could be seen in the efficacy of such unrelieved compassion. We spent much time/space in contemplation of those ways of the Creator which imbue love with wisdom.
I actually considered adding that to my last post you actually speaking with that assuredness due to your extreme immersion in the material but it seemed that should be obvious.

You bring up the female part and it occurred to me too that no such reaction came from Austin’s reply in a recent thread that was going off the rails. It’s amazing how ingrained the bias towards dominance of the masculine is in our collective consciousness.

I also think the term subversive was correct. This is a sto orientated forum, the comments were counter to sto activity. So it is technically subversive to the goals and beliefs of bring4th.
No error calling it as you saw it.
Thank you again. One of the big problems I see is that, like the Bible, it's easy to get focused on one passage or quote or concept and take it completely out of context, and run with it. This is exacerbated by the fact that I think most people who are interested in the Ra material don't even read the whole thing, or read it once long ago. This alone isn't a problem at all, you don't have to read the whole thing over and over to "get it". It's when we lose the wider viewpoint of the intended message of unity, harmony, and service to others because of a partial understanding or misunderstanding of the material that it becomes problematic. In fact that's why I even take the time to explain - I know it's easy to lose the big picture, and I know not everyone is a freak about it like me or has the memory retention I do, so I can clearly and surely articulate where and how the Ra material doesn't support outrageous claims like the OP. But it's easy to make it look like the Ra material supports outrageous claims, if one has a cursory understanding of the material. And this is a trigger for me, but I can see how it is useful so I try to create something good out of it.
I thought I"d nuance my last post with saying I do believe in being selfless.

Two weeks ago I engaged with a friend in phiolosphical discussions on how react to certain "unrealistic" scenarios from a green-ray vibration, where you are forced a choice and it was clear that I had a leaning toward selflessness. Not saying I am there yet, but at least I do have a leaning that it is how I want to identify to be.

Being selfless means to be without need, this makes you transparent to another's needs and they become your own. But a bit like I said in my previous post, this is not self-denial and you cannot get there through self-denial, you first have to work with what you contain in acceptance and when you have balanced it all you become transparent to what is left to be balanced in others as it comes to you.

Selflessness is not a state of lack, it is instead a state of wholeness. You are so whole that you have no need to absorb, all that is left to do is to radiate this wholeness. I guess this is more theoric in 3D and if not may be what the material called gaining a passport to the next Octave, otherwise individuality always hold upon certain distortions, but we can still find to near a lack of distortion within the distortion that is self.
The funny thing in the end is that whatever can be said about goody two shoes is that it is not going to change really what they decide to do. It may stop any for a short time to rethink about it, but I really see it is not going to deter in the end. In the end there is a love for whoever sits next to that person that carries the day. Just as an aside note, Mother Theresa was not providing medical care to heal people, her intention was to create a place for homeless to die not in the street, but attended to, under a roof. That was just her thing.
So much confusion... So much pain... So much misused catalyst...

I am sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you truly
(05-17-2019, 02:03 PM)redchartreuse Wrote: [ -> ]Recent research into altruistic (aka "selfless") behaviors using functional MRI has revealed that much of the difference in observed behaviors of human beings engaged in altruistic actions boils down to the fact that their brains happen to be wired to give them a much stronger jolt of neurotransmitters, like dopamine, in their reward centers when performing these types of actions, than the average person.  So, really, what is motivating these people is that they "feel good" on the inside, more so than they are actually creating positive results in the outer world.

It was also discovered that behavior patterns and inclinations shape the way brain works. So its a double-sided affair.

The person is altruistic. Does altruistic stuff. His brain is shaped accordingly. Which then does feedback to altruistic behavior.
(05-17-2019, 04:59 PM)flofrog Wrote: [ -> ]Even if Ra is always careful not to include his own bias, it’s very clear that he doesn’t think martyrdom is a good choice considering one’s own path, although he’ll respect it as it is a choice...

I would agree. 

Martyrdom is definitely a confusing topic. It seems selfish and selfless at the same time. I think being a martyr has the element of trying to control something. And in that, it would imply lack of acceptance. But when you get down to specifics, and someone throws themselves on a bomb so others won't get hurt…it seems heroic, but implies an imbalance—that self is less important than others.

Just musing...
(05-18-2019, 11:09 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: [ -> ]In fact, at it's heart, this thread (and many others) are against the rules and guidelines that go against promoting negative philosophies. The idea that martyrs are bad and selfish people who do more harm to others than good is a negative philosophy.

I think there may be a blurred line between "promoting" and discussing. I think people are just trying to work out complex ideas and speculations. In addition, not everyone has perfect descriptors and language for their feelings and ideas. Some here do not speak or write English as a native language, which might be taken into consideration.

The above statement comes off as a bit of a threat. In part, "promoting negative philosophies" is subjective. I don't see that it's efficacious to reel people into the box this way. The box exists, yes. But in my opinion, that is the job of the moderators to oversee such things. You, being one of the moderators, would have the added responsibility of recognizing that challenge between posting and moderating and the complications that arise from it. And this is not me trying to reel YOU into a box—ultimately it's all good and I promote self-expression, because that is a way we get to know ourselves.

I agree with something you said in another thread—something to this effect: If I read something here that might cause confusion or imbalanced rhetoric on a subject, I like to step in and add some balance. I did this a lot, and stayed with, the eating meat threads for that very reason. And this is the reason for this post.
I agree, there is a fine line. I personally believe the OP crosses that line and I highlighted the places where I think the language that was used shows that in an earlier post.
To reiterate on what I already said in my initial post, it seems to me that the thread addresses deep orange ray imbalances and so I don't think it addressed, nor denied, what an actual open heart is. We live in a society with deep traumas and imbalances, the cases of an individual being balanced and active in the green ray in making a self sacrifice probably is much rarer than it being something other altogether. What is then something other? Lower ray imbalances and blockages that deny an active green ray. As such, on the outside there may be cases where we can label, in the physical sense, acts to be "serving others" but if there are imbalances in the perception of self and other-self this is not done through empathy, nor does it touch the green ray. A lack of self-worth is a good example, because others are just what is not the lowly self, serving them means to have value, but there is a total lack of empathy and interconnection in what is felt, just a sense of feeding the self a false sense of worth that is never satisfied and there you get the principle of addiction to it.

I'm not saying there can't be a degree of orange ray imbalances to have an open heart, heck that is still balanced in 4D, but any distortion there does impede the green ray in the same fashion a yellow ray distortion does impede the green ray. In the confusion of separating self and other-selves, I believe there is often a great great lack of sincerity in one's thoughts and beliefs. Like believing you can forgive something to someone that you wouldn't forgive yourself, that's not true and instead just lying to yourself. You mentally abstract what someone actually is as them being something unlike yourself, which they are not and you become convinced that your self-judgment does not transpose to them, when in an energetic sense it really does. So if you see yourself as worthless in face of the great others, or if you see yourself as without value, this is what you actually sincerely feel about others and if you see them focusing on their well being you will just feel disdain because that's not something you given to yourself. It is quite easy to see and understand if you just ponder for a second the nature of the rays and their hierarchy in how energy moves through them.

Now I don't say that redchartreuse was fully balanced and void of any frustration or such in his words, nor do I even think I am, but I do see an actual concern for portions of a society that, in many ways and for a lot of time, have tended to believe in a redemption through self-torture and instead wishes them a better way of life. In many ways wishing and encouraging others toward a path of martyrdom is actually wishing and encouraging them upon a path void of healing, nothing heals if you can't wish yourself well and what you radiate and offer others will be stuck at a level of self-worthlessness which is nothing healing.

A balanced entity that would be met with these remarks would simply smile and say it is fine and it is its choice, lightening all concerns about its well being or what it does. The unbalanced entity, like said in the OP, gets angry because its choice of being martyr is nothing healthy nor balanced with itself, it simply believes itself to be nothing if it does not do that and that is not helpful toward harvest. Like I said already, how you interact with yourself matters a lot in how you feel about others, because you are their incarnation that you are most intimate with.

tl;dr: That the thread was about negative philosophy is, IMHO, a deep delusion and misses the sense of concern found in it.
Thank you Minyatur I see in what sense the question would address something else than simply the concept of giving oneself to save someone else. It is just that it might happen to be the case once in a while. Unless we consider the ISIS mode of functioning in the way they recruit young people. Perhaps the title might have been then, could in certain cases martyrs be self-inflicted torture, or something in that way ?

I have to say I never considered that when I was visiting the thread, and I understand Jade's point of view, I was not seeing the thread as you just pointed.
(05-21-2019, 08:16 PM)flofrog Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you Minyatur I see in what sense the question would address something else than simply the concept of giving oneself  to save someone else.  It is just that it might happen to be the case once in a while. Unless we consider the ISIS mode of functioning in the way they recruit young people.  Perhaps the title might have been then, could in certain cases martyrs be self-inflicted torture, or something in that way ?    

I have to say I never considered that when I was visiting the thread, and I understand Jade's point of view, I was not seeing the thread as you just pointed.

I think it makes more sense if you have known people with deep orange ray imbalances in your life. A single word of reprimand can shatter them down for a very long time and they would do anything for a word of praise because that is the only time they feel worth, it isn't very balanced to not have your own self esteem and it becomes, in those circumstances, the first step to walk on the positive path I believe.

I think the thread was heavily centered upon the imbalance of motives and how it becomes a form of addiction because of them. I do agree there is a lot of that. A lot of my lessons in this life seem to resolve around respecting what I feel in the face of others and in the long run I think it is easy to see that this is what enables you to really become positive, to find true respect for what others also feel as it freely moves through you. Shutting yourself down and such does little but dim your light to a point it might just become extinguished.

Like I said in my post, due to how heavily imbalanced this world is, actual selfless martyrs are probably a rarity. So I think the thread title addresses the general trend of it and how it is more often than not portrayed, expressed and inspires others. I tend to think it is more loving to wish someone to be well than to become a martyr, if everyone effectively did become one, would not the world simply become void of joy?

I've just remembered a Qu'ote from L/L Research on facebook from 3 days ago that kinda goes along what I think was beneath this thread:

Quote:It would be preferable…to hope for, and aim for, taking the life itself lightly, so that there is not that feeling of struggle with the spiritual path but rather a feeling of playing and dancing and even romping with the spiritual path. There is something in the work ethic that suggests that it is important to work hard, even on the spiritual path. Yet, we would suggest that there are other ways to frame this effort so that it is effortless and simply becomes a game that is fun to play and fun to think about. Then, where before you were worrying or striving, you now are relaxed and moving in a dance, graceful and light-stepping, ready to laugh, ready to let it go and simply be. - Q'uo

That is more what I wish to inspire others and mainly the issue that I have with martyrhood, how I simply wish people on this path a better path from which, unexpectedly, they may, perhaps, do even more.
Who knows though, maybe this is also just negative philosophy. The spiritual path ought to be hardship and all about sacrifice!
The problem is that "martyr" has an actual definition in the Ra material, in fact a clearer definition than many concepts that Ra uses. So, I feel like it was necessary to be pedantic this time. I know words can mean all sorts of things, but we're here to talk within a common framework that has a fairly unique vocabulary.
I totally agree Minyatur about the form of addiction to one word of praise. When I was very young, one word of praise was like my savior, I was very shy and about 12 decided I would be ok whatever people could think or say, it took a lot of nerve !!! lol I was really torturing myself at night about what someone would say to me or about me to someone else. But it was such a torture that the decision to stop putting so much importance to it was in fact tremendous relief. I can see now it helped me building up slowly some compassion for myself and a lot for others. really interesting.

I think there might be more selfless martyrs but we just don't hear or know about them, it's the silent crowd. I think people are truly courageous and oriented to the good but we just dont know, despite chaos and despite Orion's effort Big Grin
(05-21-2019, 09:13 PM)flofrog Wrote: [ -> ]I think there might be more selfless martyrs but we just don't hear or know about them, it's the silent crowd.  I think people are truly courageous and  oriented to the good but we just dont know, despite chaos and despite Orion's effort Big Grin

I don't doubt there are of them, Earth is filled with quite a lot of diversity.
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