Bring4th

Hello,

I have a question regarding the consumption of meat by us and if it is natural or not.

I had a thought, a simple one. Whenever I see discussions regarding whether we should or shouldn't eat meat usually the topic goes to whether it is natural or not. Whether we are omnivore/carnivore/herbivore.
And there are genuinely a lot of good points for each and every category so there is never one clear answer whether it is natural or not.
But I had a thought, and I want to ask other's opinion on that.

From a bit of searching I have found that our stomach cannot process uncooked meat, nor can our teeth slice and tear fresh meat. In order for us to be able to consume the meat we need to burn it with fire. And that to me seems quite unnatural when comparing humans with other meat consuming animals, they do not need to do anything to be able to digest meat.

I would love any thoughts on this, and please try and have respect for each other. I noticed that most of these topics turn into chaos, I hope this will not happen. :-/

Thank you.

One of the defining features of man is his ability to make tools and use the environment around him for his benefit. We are able to harness the power of the elements. Cooking meat increases the proportion of nutrients that the body is able to digest. The cooking of meat helped to facilitate the development of the early human brain.

Humans can harness the power of elements and change nature to their liking. But is it natural, is it meant and what earth intended when it birthed humans? The mind is one thing, the body is another. The body that is born naked cannot consume meat, so one would assume that the body doesn't need meat, right? It's only logical. I think somewhere along the line the human body became addicted to meat, like if we were to stop now it would cause some imbalances and few will even be unable to stop due to their body reconfiguration to the addiction. Does that make sense? Thanks for reading and replying by the way.  

Interesting questions because of my experience a couple of days ago. My sick dog (who is still doing better) has been vegan at least 5 years out of his 12. It's been about 3 years now of solid veganism for him. Since he has been weak and not eating, and this is something we have dealt with before, I actually bought some cow livers at the store for him - the last time this happened, he got anemic, so the liver was irresistible and was the key to getting him to eat again. He ate a couple of bites and I was happy for it, but a couple hours later is came back out of him exactly the way it looked. He was completely unable to digest it at all...

I think ultimately our bodies adjust and the bacteria in our guts becomes balanced to handle whatever we eat regularly. It's true that the human digestive system isn't exactly set up to eat meat (by most scientific and biological standards comparing herbivores vs. omnivores/carnivores) but we can eat meat. We definitely eat too much and I have a feeling a lot of illness and disease starts with the putrefying remains of flesh being slowly digested in our very long (herbivorous) digestive systems. For me, one of the main reasons I eat organic as much as possible is because I believe that the effects of chemical biocides is extremely detrimental to our sensitive gut flora. We have more single-celled organisms living on/in our bodies than we do cells of our own. More and more, distortions of the body are being linked to gut flora populations. Unless you are eating only organic meat, then you are eating meat that has been given large doses of antibiotics and honestly who knows what else. Usually only GMO food grown with no standards because livestock have very few laws regarding their care. Or garbage that's not fit for human consumption.

For me, meat isn't as cut and dry of as issue as dairy is. Up to 75% of adults are lactose intolerant. No other animal on this planet drinks milk once they are weened, let alone drinks the milk of another species. Most of my health problems went away when I went vegan, and honestly I believe it was primarily the effects of quitting dairy. I think eating small amounts of meat can be justified, I don't think there is any justification for eating dairy.

Ra says in fourth density there is "increased communion with living foodstuffs". I've always taken this to essentially mean raw veganism - or essentially, going back to the diets of our ancestors, who are frugivorous chimps plucking ripe fruit from the tree tops. I mean, the quote could mean that we go full carnivore and eat animals while they are alive like lions do, (or, drinking milk straight from the teat of the cow!) but I sort of doubt it.

Quote:43.18 ▶ Questioner: The mechanism of, shall we say, social catalyst due to a necessity for feeding the body then is active in fourth density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The fourth-density being desires to serve and the preparation of foodstuffs is extremely simple due to increased communion between entity and living foodstuff. Therefore, this is not a significant catalyst but rather a simple precondition of the space/time experience. The catalyst involved is the necessity for the ingestion of foodstuffs. This is not considered to be of importance by fourth-density entities and it, therefore, aids in the teach/learning of patience.

Why does it matter if it's natural? I have vision problems so I wear glasses. Are those "natural"? Does it matter?

(06-04-2019, 10:43 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: [ -> ]For me, meat isn't as cut and dry of as issue as dairy is. Up to 75% of adults are lactose intolerant. No other animal on this planet drinks milk once they are weened, let alone drinks the milk of another species. Most of my health problems went away when I went vegan, and honestly I believe it was primarily the effects of quitting dairy. I think eating small amounts of meat can be justified, I don't think there is any justification for eating dairy.

Since you mentioned dairy and the lactose intolerance...

I wonder how much of the intolerance is due to:
(1) Milk cows fed grains instead of grass (bad).
(2) Pasteurization that destroys the enzymes in the milk needed to digest it properly.
(3) Hormonal injections of the cows.
(4) More stuff to numerous to list.

I think the biggest thing of the intolerance is the pasteurization/homogenization.

One thing about adults and dairy. I suffered for years with lower than average weight... I couldn't gain weight no matter what or how much I ate... always "skinny". I happened to find a source of raw cow milk and consumed several gallons of it over the course of a month. Miraculously, I gained 25 pounds of much needed frame weight. I looked healthy and normal for the first time in my life.

I don't think dairy is a problem if we have an unadulterated source... just like meat.

This thread is about meat, so I'll leave it as is.

(06-04-2019, 11:57 AM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: [ -> ]Why does it matter if it's natural? I have vision problems so I wear glasses. Are those "natural"? Does it matter?

It doesn't matter, but it's unnecessary, and it is what it is. Speaking of diet and not switching topics - If your body does not need meat, if it's not meant or able to consume it without modifying it until it is tasty, edible, and not poisonous. Then why do we eat it in the first place? Several opinions arise. We eat meat because it's tasty, and because we've been taught to. Both of which could rise an eyebrow if one cares for themselves/other-selves/or animals. So if we don't need meat, if we are intelligent enough and are capable of making alternatives, being the most advanced species on this planet. Shouldn't we try? Isn't it our responsability at least to? We ease the suffering of animals, we ease on green house effects that over population of farm animals causes, we ease on space to make more crops therefore feed more mouths, and we ease on our bodies.

Blossom, I'd like to think that we could leave meat eating behind. A few problems arise:

Through the centuries, we've managed to destroy much biodiversity of vegetation. Many varieties of edible plants have disappeared in the mono-crop agriculture way of doing things. I'm not sure we could maintain health with the quality/variety of vegetables currently (and readily) available.

Increasingly, populations are in urban areas with the food system geared toward efficiency/cost effectiveness/quantity rather than quality/purity of foodstuffs. I don't think that's going to change soon.

I think that attempting a vegan only diet is difficult for many people to maintain and also many people lack the knowledge of what to eat... not to mention availability of all that's needed for balance.

Could we collectively all move to vegan. Probably, if collectively we concentrated all our effort to do so. But that goes for anything else in the "perfect world". We should have free energy now, but it's suppressed. We should have cures for cancer, but they're suppressed. Everyone should have enough to eat, but they don't. People should be healthier, but the food/air/water is bad. Yes, collectively we could do nearly anything, be we know why it isn't happening. It always boils down to the same thing no matter which "should be/ could be" we address. Money/power/vested interests... etc.

I'm not trying to be a smart ***. Just pointing out some of the reasons why... "it is what it is".

I'm not a vegan, nor pretend to know all about it... just offering some items for thought.

p.s. Are we counting seafood in with "meat"... just wondering.

You aren't being any of such krb, your perspective is very appreciated, everyone's is. You make much sense.
I also don't think that everyone are going to switch diets, some who are unaware of their choices, most of which, will most likely continue consuming meat all their lives.
I'm raising my concern to those whom I/we can reach, it is in my belief and probably other's too that if one is enlightened on such a manner, it is more than enough to try. And maybe, just maybe, when the time is right, other individuals whom by whatever catalyst will come to awaken to a realization that they may not need meat, you/us will be there for them, we can take the first step for them so when they need guidance, when they need hope, we are already there waiting, available for teaching and compassion.

I don't know regarding sea food, I'd say that our bodies can't consume that either. But being where we are now, I believe everything is acceptable in it's own capacity. So even if one chooses to eat less meat, to eat less meat and more sea food, eat only sea food, eat less sea food only and no meat. It is enough. Each of us makes a step, together we form a stairway, we are one.

(06-04-2019, 11:57 AM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: [ -> ]Why does it matter if it's natural? I have vision problems so I wear glasses. Are those "natural"? Does it matter?

The animal agriculture industry causes immense amounts of suffering and greatly lowers the overall vibrations of the planet through deforestation, wild species extinction, green house gas emissions, and fertilizer runoff that is killing the oceans - this is not even taking into account the individual suffering of each animal that is bred merely to be imprisoned, tortured/mutilated, and slaughtered.

It's not about natural vs unnatural. If something is unnatural AND it causes immense suffering AND it is unnecessary, then we should probably seek other avenues.

Quote:I don't think dairy is a problem if we have an unadulterated source... just like meat.

The problem with dairy is that to drink the milk of a mother cow, the baby must be removed from the mother. This means immediate slaughter (males) or being confined and fed milk replacement until first ovulation when they are forcefully impregnated and turned into milk machines (females). I believe strongly that moms should be able to feed their babies, but that's just me. Dairy involves suffering no matter what. There is no magical farm where the cow and calf get to stay together - at least not more than a week or two. By the time the calf is a few weeks old, they need lots and lots of milk to keep growing. Since milk is the product, it's just impossible to do this on a functioning dairy.

If allowed, a cow will stay in their herd and be close with their mothers until one of them passes naturally. This is Justin and Maisie. Maisie was sent to slaughter while she was pregnant (as are most dairy cows), and luckily was rescued. Justin is an adult Holstein steer, which isn't very common at all because like I said, they die. In this picture he is almost a year old, bigger than his mom, and he is still nursing.

Quote:I don't think dairy is a problem if we have an unadulterated source... just like meat.

Jade, in the context I was writing in and what was in my mind while writing those words:

I was referring to our consumption of unadulterated dairy and meat products vs. what the industries do to them. In their original, intended form, they are "healthy" and will support life as opposed to processed products that impair health. In the pre-industrial era, people led healthy lives on organic/unadulterated animal products for thousands of years.

I'm not going to get into the moral aspect of what goes on now. I understand and am sympathetic to all the concerns you've brought up.

No problem... you interpreted that sentence you've quoted from me different from my intended meaning. That happens in this form of communication. I hope I've cleared things up.

(06-04-2019, 03:48 PM)krb Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:I don't think dairy is a problem if we have an unadulterated source... just like meat.

Jade, in the context I was writing in and what was in my mind while writing those words:

I was referring to our consumption of unadulterated dairy and meat products vs. what the industries do to them. In their original, intended form, they are "healthy" and will support life as opposed to processed products that impair health. In the pre-industrial era, people led healthy lives on organic/unadulterated animal products for thousands of years.

I'm not going to get into the moral aspect of what goes on now. I understand and am sympathetic to all the concerns you've brought up.

No problem... you interpreted that sentence you've quoted from me different from my intended meaning. That happens in this form of communication. I hope I've cleared things up.

I guess I just misunderstood how taking a mother's milk from her child at all is "unadulterated". I'm of the understanding that dairy requires this type of "adulteration" to actually exist. I realize now that you must mean adulteration through processing. I'm talking more in a meta sense of adulterating the basic natural order. If we step back and actually look at what we are doing to animals as a symbolic analog for how we treat almost everything on this planet, I think intentionally impregnating an animal and killing her child so that we can drink her milk is kind of the most heinous thing you can do.

The original, intended form of milk is to help grow a baby cow (less than 100lbs) into an animal that weighs 1500 lbs. It has helped us survive, and certainly there are cultures right now still dependent on animal agriculture, but we have distorted it so gravely that I find it nearly impossible to defend on any level for most people who live within 20 miles of a grocery store. I mean, we used to drink milk from all types of animals - cows, horses, sheep, camels, basically any animal that was kept and produced milk was a potential food source. Isn't it weird that we only see cows' milk as consumable and all other milk seems disgusting and ridiculous?

(06-04-2019, 04:04 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2019, 03:48 PM)krb Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:I don't think dairy is a problem if we have an unadulterated source... just like meat.

Jade, in the context I was writing in and what was in my mind while writing those words:

I was referring to our consumption of unadulterated dairy and meat products vs. what the industries do to them. In their original, intended form, they are "healthy" and will support life as opposed to processed products that impair health. In the pre-industrial era, people led healthy lives on organic/unadulterated animal products for thousands of years.

I'm not going to get into the moral aspect of what goes on now. I understand and am sympathetic to all the concerns you've brought up.

No problem... you interpreted that sentence you've quoted from me different from my intended meaning. That happens in this form of communication. I hope I've cleared things up.

I guess I just misunderstood how taking a mother's milk from her child at all is "unadulterated". I'm of the understanding that dairy requires this type of "adulteration" to actually exist. I realize now that you must mean adulteration through processing. I'm talking more in a meta sense of adulterating the basic natural order. If we step back and actually look at what we are doing to animals as a symbolic analog for how we treat almost everything on this planet, I think intentionally impregnating an animal and killing her child so that we can drink her milk is kind of the most heinous thing you can do.

Yes, I did mean the adulteration of the product (milk) by the industrial processes of pasteurization/homogenization. I am strictly talking about the health effects of what is the result of un-natural  industrial processes to the food chain.

Again, I "get it" with the points you bring up. In the pre-industrial era, I don't think people killed the calf to get some milk from the mother. I'm sure they let the calf nurse and still had some milk for themselves. I'm not for factory/industrial farms. Yes, everything now is distorted.

This is actually quite insane, the general public isn't aware of that. Maybe in some sub-conscious form they are..

Regarding dairy, I actually tripped and went back to consuming some products containing dairy/eggs. I have no real excuse, but I'm quite a bad cook, and a lazy one. I ate only grains with nothing extra, almost every product contains dairy or eggs, it sometimes feels unnecessary, like they do it on purpose. So unless more people eat vegan the grocery stores won't bring in goods that are vegan. I still don't buy regular milk though, it seems pointless as I have many other available alternatives to that.

(06-04-2019, 12:00 PM)krb Wrote: [ -> ]Since you mentioned dairy and the lactose intolerance...

I wonder how much of the intolerance is due to:
(1) Milk cows fed grains instead of grass (bad).
(2) Pasteurization that destroys the enzymes in the milk needed to digest it properly.
(3) Hormonal injections of the cows.
(4) More stuff to numerous to list.

I think the biggest thing of the intolerance is the pasteurization/homogenization.

One thing about adults and dairy. I suffered for years with lower than average weight... I couldn't gain weight no matter what or how much I ate... always "skinny". I happened to find a source of raw cow milk and consumed several gallons of it over the course of a month. Miraculously, I gained 25 pounds of much needed frame weight. I looked healthy and normal for the first time in my life.

I don't think dairy is a problem if we have an unadulterated source... just like meat.

This thread is about meat, so I'll leave it as is.

You are wrong about dairy and lactose intolerant. Lactose intolerant is because a person is missing the enzyme needed to digest lactose.

Dairy is definitely a problem even if it's raw. For one thing, it's meant for calves, not humans. Beyond that, the list is long why it's bad for humans, the animals, and the planet.

---

Regarding the OP:

Quote:Our Teeth, Jaws, and Nails

Humans have short, soft fingernails and small “canine” teeth. In contrast, carnivores all have sharp claws and large canine teeth that are capable of tearing flesh.

Carnivores’ jaws move only up and down, requiring them to tear chunks of flesh from their prey and swallow them whole. Humans and other herbivores can move their jaws up and down and from side to side, allowing them to grind up fruit and vegetables with their back teeth. Like other herbivores’ teeth, humans’ back molars are flat for grinding fibrous plant foods.

Dr. Richard Leakey, a renowned anthropologist, summarizes, “You can’t tear flesh by hand, you can’t tear hide by hand. Our anterior teeth are not suited for tearing flesh or hide. We don’t have large canine teeth, and we wouldn’t have been able to deal with food sources that require those large canines.”

Stomach Acidity

Carnivorous animals swallow their food whole, relying on extremely acidic stomach juices to break down flesh and kill the dangerous bacteria in it, which would otherwise sicken or kill them. Our stomach acids are much weaker in comparison, because strong acids aren’t needed to digest prechewed fruits and vegetables.

Intestinal Length

Animals who hunt have short intestinal tracts and colons that allow meat to pass through their bodies relatively quickly, before it can rot and cause illness. Humans’ intestinal tracts are much longer than those of carnivores of comparable size. Longer intestines allow the body more time to break down fiber and absorb the nutrients from plant-based foods, but they make it dangerous for humans to eat meat. The bacteria in meat have extra time to multiply during the long trip through the digestive system, increasing the risk of food poisoning. Meat actually begins to rot while it makes its way through human intestines, which increases the risk of developing colon cancer.

Human Evolution and the Rise of Meat-Heavy Diets

If it’s so unhealthy and unnatural for humans to eat meat, why did our ancestors sometimes turn to flesh for sustenance? Author of the book The Power of Your Plate, Dr. Neal Barnard, talks about humans’ early diet, explaining that we “had diets very much like other great apes, which is to say a largely plant-based diet …. [M]eat-eating probably began by scavenging—eating the leftovers that carnivores had left behind. However, our bodies have never adapted to it. To this day, meat-eaters have a higher incidence of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and other problems.”

article source

I feel lot like Diana and Jade. Industrial agriculture is horrific. As. A child I hated milk but loved yogurt but that was like more than sixty years ago and we used to make our own yogurt and cows were treated differently at the time.
I don’t do well on a long term as completely vegan, I get really skinny bordering anemia, so I usually add eggs, and once in while I’ll have meat like three times a year or more if anemic. It’s fascinating as how we all react differently to a system of food.

(06-04-2019, 04:34 PM)ada Wrote: [ -> ]This is actually quite insane, the general public isn't aware of that. Maybe in some sub-conscious form they are..

Regarding dairy, I actually tripped and went back to consuming some products containing dairy/eggs. I have no real excuse, but I'm quite a bad cook, and a lazy one. I ate only grains with nothing extra, almost every product contains dairy or eggs, it sometimes feels unnecessary, like they do it on purpose. So unless more people eat vegan the grocery stores won't bring in goods that are vegan. I still don't buy regular milk though, it seems pointless as I have many other available alternatives to that.

It's easy to eat vegan (regarding one's own shopping and meal prep). It becomes challenging when dining out or with friends and family, but that doesn't have to be a huge problem. And all the grocery stores I visit have some vegan "meat substitutes" and "vegan dairy products" if that is wanted.

The general public is more aware than ever of the problems the meat and dairy industry cause to people and the planet (and of course the animals). It's just that everyone is so busy with so much to do, I think this information overwhelms them. They probably can't face another learning curve (and who can blame them in this day and age).

The first thing to do is shift thinking: instead of planning a meal around meat, plan it around a grain or vegetable or pasta or anything plant-based. This is a big shift because we are taught to plan meals around the meat. The second thing to get away from is packaged foods (as mentioned above almost everything has eggs and/or dairy in it). The upside is a way healthier diet.

And ultimately, if there is a strong enough reason to do something, a person will do it. 

That was very informative Diana, thank you.
I will go to the grocery store and keep trying.  

(06-04-2019, 06:24 PM)ada Wrote: [ -> ]That was very informative Diana, thank you.
I will go to the grocery store and keep trying.  

If you have any challenges just ask. We vegans are here to help anyone who wants to learn more about it and how to do it.  

(06-04-2019, 06:28 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2019, 06:24 PM)ada Wrote: [ -> ]That was very informative Diana, thank you.
I will go to the grocery store and keep trying.  

If you have any challenges just ask. We vegans are here to help anyone who wants to learn more about it and how to do it.  

One of my biggest issues is potein, I can't seem to find a simple daily source. I've issues with tofu, with my cooking skill I can't make anything simple and tasteful out of it. Most usually I'd prepare it with soy source, but even then it feels quite tasteless.

(06-04-2019, 06:10 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]You are wrong about dairy and lactose intolerant. Lactose intolerant is because a person is missing the enzyme needed to digest lactose.

Dairy is definitely a problem even if it's raw. For one thing, it's meant for calves, not humans. Beyond that, the list is long why it's bad for humans, the animals, and the planet.

I'll give you that Diana about the missing enzyme for Lactose intolerance. I still maintain that few people would have trouble digesting raw animal milk, regardless if you feel it's only meant for animals. Again, I point to the healing I obtained with just a months worth of REAL raw milk. Many others can testify to similar positive effects. You can read about that all over the 'net.

On meat... you can point to every "study" on anatomy you wish to, but the real world facts are that humans have lived on animal products since time began and have done quite well with it. The plains indians in N. America had a diet very heavily weighted to Bison meat. By all accounts they were the toughest specimens of humanity on the continent. The Inuit in the bitter North had a native diet
of fish, whale/seal meat  and blubber... very few vegetables. They were as tough as they come also.

There's academic/ivory tower theory that doesn't play out in reality. History and facts are just that.. reality.

I GET IT. I understand the whole cruelty thing. I understand the emotions of we humans toward suffering creatures... but it doesn't change reality. Yes, the current industrial/mechanized farming is what you say it is. However, trying to state that (wild) natural foods that have nourished generations for millenia are not healthy just flies in the face of the facts.

Ok. I'm not going to participate in going along with turning this thread into another "chaos" that the OP felt would probably happen. There has already been a similar thread which is probably what the OP is referring to.

I'm done. Believe whatever you wish to believe on the subject.  

I think we can't know how healthy were native humans, how long heir life span was, etc. But it is possible that they lived in much more harmony and understanding with the animal that they hunted and ate, since they actually came in contact with it, experienced the compassion towards it. We are missing an important piece in the process of consuming meat, or drinking milk, the compassion of the animal that it came from. - I can't speak for everyone, for I know some care, and do try and have compassion for where the product. But something is missing, the animal and the process, it is hidden, sometimes forbidden to see, because it is painful. We are love, we recognize love in animals, in pets, sometimes we  see ourselves in them, we don't want them to suffer.

(06-04-2019, 01:01 PM)ada Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2019, 11:57 AM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: [ -> ]Why does it matter if it's natural? I have vision problems so I wear glasses. Are those "natural"? Does it matter?

It doesn't matter, but it's unnecessary, and it is what it is. Speaking of diet and not switching topics - If your body does not need meat, if it's not meant or able to consume it without modifying it until it is tasty, edible, and not poisonous. Then why do we eat it in the first place? Several opinions arise. We eat meat because it's tasty, and because we've been taught to. Both of which could rise an eyebrow if one cares for themselves/other-selves/or animals. So if we don't need meat, if we are intelligent enough and are capable of making alternatives, being the most advanced species on this planet. Shouldn't we try? Isn't it our responsability at least to? We ease the suffering of animals, we ease on green house effects that over population of farm animals causes, we ease on space to make more crops therefore feed more mouths, and we ease on our bodies.

Yes I totally agree! We have been “learning the ways of love” and now the moral question of eating meat is raised for many of us. But that doesn’t mean that our initial eating of meat was wrong. It aided our evolution. All things are one, and that’s the nature of animal world: eating and being eaten. Is it “natural” that living beings have to eat other living beings in order to survive? Apparently so. There’s a different kind of morality in nature compared to human morality. Nature is red in tooth and claw. But we as late 3D humans, can contemplate the morality of killing animals for food and find new ways if we are trouble by it. Lately I am eating a lot less meat and replacing it with meat substitutes, etc. I actually feel more at ease eating it than I do meat because I always have a kind of ambivalence about eating meat. It tastes good but it’s also gross to think about and to look at.

So i think it was natural that man realized cooking meat and food in general provides better sustenance than raw food. Meat has energy and nutrients; early man needed that energy for survival. Cooked meat (hunting) provided that.

On another related note, the native Americans when they hunted the bison, said that they used all parts of the animal that they killed. Nothing was wasted. That is a respectful attitude towards nature and the animal.

We can choose other, less harmful ways to eat food and sustain ourselves, I fully agree with that. But earlier man had far less options than we modern day men do. It was a necessity for many developing cultures.

(06-04-2019, 06:41 PM)ada Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2019, 06:28 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2019, 06:24 PM)ada Wrote: [ -> ]That was very informative Diana, thank you.
I will go to the grocery store and keep trying.  

If you have any challenges just ask. We vegans are here to help anyone who wants to learn more about it and how to do it.  

One of my biggest issues is potein, I can't seem to find a simple daily source. I've issues with  tofu, with my cooking skill I can't make anything simple and tasteful out of it. Most usually I'd prepare it with soy source, but even then it feels quite tasteless.

Any grain plus any legume equals complete protein. But I don't worry about that. 

The feeling that you lack protein could be from various things. It could be from too many carbs or sugar, the quality of the food, an imbalance in the system such as bacterial (which many, many people have), not drinking enough water (which can manifest as hunger and feeling "under par"), not enough exercise, and countless other things.

I totally understand not having time or "being lazy" as you say, but today, everyone is so busy there is no "lazy," just time-crunched or a feeling of being under pressure. I have worked for myself at home since my 20s. There was a point at which, a few years in, I made the commitment to making my own food for lunch instead of going out. Yes, this added time into my day, and I was jealous of my time (I work a lot—because I like to). A lot of the time I don't want to stop and go "make" something. But the benefits are really great. 

An easy way to combat the time thing and get enough nutrients is to make green drinks. You can get freezer tub containers at Smart and Final (or check around in your area) and make a big batch once per week. Then freeze enough for the week. You can do this in a blender. First belend the greens with water for a few minutes to break down the cellulose, then add the other ingredients. Some ingredient ideas:

Greens
Kale
Spinach
Chard
Cabbage

Other Veggies
Beet
Celery
Cucumber
Carrots

Fruits
Frozen berries and fruit
Avocado
Banana
Apple
Coconut
Any fruit in season

Flavoring
Ginger root
Cinnamon
Agave syrup
Maple syrup
Protein powder

I eat raw food every day with few exceptions. So at least one of my meals is a "salad." I put lots of stuff in the salad (lettuces, cabbage, avocado, tomatoes, cucumbers, beets, zucchini, peppers, any squash, etc.), and though you think tofu tastes plain (it does), when it is cubed and in a salad, it does not. Along with whatever veggies I have, which I chop up small including the lettuces, I usually chop up a date or add a few cran-raisons. I use EVOO, balsamic vinegar, sea salt, dill, garlic most of the time as my own dressing (it's so much better than the bottle dressings in stores). You can get wonderful oils and vinegars at specialty store as well, but they are expensive. For variety I might saute some Gardein Chick'n Strips (vegan) or add garbanzo or other beans.

I also make a sauce that tastes great on a salad but also on everything else. In a food processor blend nuts/seeds (I use raw almonds and cashews usually or whatever I happen to have) with some water to thin it, and add nutritional yeast and maybe some garlic or other savory spices, and sometimes I blend in red, yellow, and green peppers. I use enough water to thin it so it pours easily. 

I find that the more raw food I eat, the more energy I have (based on years of experience). So possibly experiment with that.

I should get myself a blender. Thanks Diana.

Regarding protein, I'm not really sure but it's more of what others are telling me that I need a lot of protein and their worry for my health. I hear a lot that we lose muscle with lack of protein. I checked online in a few places for a daily protein requirement and checked my meals and I don't come any close to that. I bought vegan protein powder which I drink after a meal or exercise, but that too doesn't seem enough, according to websites etc.

I am really not sure we need a large amount of protein. I have a feeling that we need little unless we live in very cold climate, mountainous, and requiring lots of physical efforts. But also we all have different needs. Still I think the need for protein is often too emphasized.

I am a lot of the perspective of Nau7ik. I would add also that it should be expected that, in their intelligence, humans learned from nature. They have seen and been inspired by predators that may have signified a better power of survival, both in terms of eating or mimicking sharp claws and teeth into tools to defend and attack. Meat eating is not a thing that appeared in a single civilization either, it is widespread and then probably natural as a potential. Also as a tool building race, in my view, humans touch a certain archetype of the Creator that we could term "the alchimist", it is in our nature to transform things and our environment and expriment with it. So what is natural is not as limited as you made it to be I think.

Now I do understand your concerns, but it has to be understood that mankind is not apart from nature, it is exactly its own aspect of nature and so mankind is a whole lot just in nature's image. We are invasive to our environment and other species because we lack natural predators, a lot of species would be in their own way if nature did not have actors to that keep them in check in a bloody fashion. Nature is not a warm and all fun place, it is a whole lot cold, where animals kill and are killed, starve and die of wounds, it is part of the design and so humans are also just an aspect of this design. With time, a lot of things will just fall away, but change and transformation takes time and working with what is already contained within our specie. Native humans are those who grew from this cold nature and resonate with it, it is engraved within them and nothing will totally erase that, because it is their path. Maybe some souls come from different worlds with a nature that was otherwise and they can't find to resonate with the design of this place.

Everything on Earth is already love/light light/love, it is so with nature as it is so with man that is in nature's image. Things that are not needed will fall away in their own time.

The natural argument always fell short for me personally.

You can definitely argue it's natural to seriously injure or kill someone who upsets you (this is seen both in the animal kingdom and more commonly in earlier human history, especially among the less 'civilized' societies), but as we have evolved we have learned to become better than our seemingly common base violent instincts. I think we've evolved this way because we have a mind, free will, and choice on many matters, including how we treat one another when angry, and including how we treat the environment and 2D other-selves we consume, both in amount of death and the amount of pain caused, as well as weighing and considering our own ability to enjoy life and its social activities around certain forms of diet, and our ability to easily obtain food of a given diet.

If you look at Hatonn's story of evolution from 3D to 4D, it was an evolution of a culture of war and dominion over resources which gave way to see all other selves as brother and sister and sharing food freely even when the world-wide war had ravaged their planet so badly that it seemed everyone the vast majority would die from starvation (I think they said not everyone but nearly everyone). I think you could say it's fairly unnatural (from an animal kingdom perspective) to share food when doing so would make you starve, yet that is the level to which Hatonn evolved to as they reached 4D positive.

In a lot ways, you could argue that the entire story of 3D evolution is evolving from our 2D 'natural' non-polarized distortions (love for pack or tribe, etc) into 3d polarizing choices which then catapults one into 4D.

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Just one perspective on a topic that has a variety of perspectives. And I totally respect everyone's opinion, as diet is definitely a personal choice. On a side note, I may experiment back to gluten-free vegetarian from veganism (going on 5 years) since my gluten-sensitivity that I had a decade ago has returned with a vengeance, and gluten-free vegan in this rural place I live and work atm is just too hard for me personally. We'll see.

When I'm eating pasta with meat and a cheese sauce on it, I tend to prefer the taste and texture of the pasta over the meat.

(06-05-2019, 07:02 PM)Minyatur Wrote: [ -> ]Now I do understand your concerns, but it has to be understood that mankind is not apart from nature, it is exactly its own aspect of nature and so mankind is a whole lot just in nature's image. We are invasive to our environment and other species because we lack natural predators, a lot of species would be in their own way if nature did not have actors to that keep them in check in a bloody fashion. Nature is not a warm and all fun place, it is a whole lot cold, where animals kill and are killed, starve and die of wounds, it is part of the design and so humans are also just an aspect of this design. With time, a lot of things will just fall away, but change and transformation takes time and working with what is already contained within our specie. Native humans are those who grew from this cold nature and resonate with it, it is engraved within them and nothing will totally erase that, because it is their path. Maybe some souls come from different worlds with a nature that was otherwise and they can't find to resonate with the design of this place.

Everything on Earth is already love/light light/love, it is so with nature as it is so with man that is in nature's image. Things that are not needed will fall away in their own time.

Yes, Natives do resonate with nature. It is engraved within them and nothing will erase that. Those that have little or no contact with them will not understand what you wrote. Natives are very respectful of 2D lives, and gave thanks for their lives when taken. As it's been said in this thread, the entire Bison was used... nothing was wasted. Same thing with the Inuit that I mentioned previously. People that have no knowledge of what a purely natural existence in harmony with their surroundings, are often too quick to judge that situation. There was no "evil" in living as they did. The natives were just one more "predator" in the natural order of things.

You've wrote a very insightful post Minyatur.