Bring4th

Are we in 4th density (5th dimension already)?

Dolores Cannon said in 2012 that we were already here.

There are sources which talk about Earth going to fifth dimension instead fourth. Personally, I prefer the densities system due the harmonic and mathematical progression through the levels of the existence.

(02-01-2020, 02:42 PM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]There are sources which talk about Earth going to fifth dimension instead fourth. Personally, I prefer the densities system due the harmonic and mathematical progression through the levels of the existence.

Is 5D according to her (5th dimension) the same as Ra's 4th density?

(02-01-2020, 03:03 PM)Great Central Sun Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-01-2020, 02:42 PM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]There are sources which talk about Earth going to fifth dimension instead fourth. Personally, I prefer the densities system due the harmonic and mathematical progression through the levels of the existence.

Is 5D according to her (5th dimension) the same as Ra's 4th density?

It's hard to say... I am like Infinite and prefer to stay in Ra's perspective as it makes sense to my weak brain

And you know in some ways, Earth is already in higher dimension if you forget about chronological times....

Later in the video she says that people go into the 5D for moments, so we're not there all the time.

I wonder if it's possible to raise the vibration of your body to go into fourth density.

I don't even know what subdensity I am in here in 3D. I've had a Kundalini awakening,
and gone through very dense energy shifts. But I still feel very much 3D.

Though I'm on the more pleasant end of the spectrum. It feels blissful, and life seems to work for me.
The bad things going on in the world, don't seem to be happening in my world.

I still have to deal with my mom, though I've learned to accept her as she is.
According to her, everyone has a demon but her. That's the feeling I get.

(02-01-2020, 03:03 PM)Great Central Sun Wrote: [ -> ]Is 5D according to her (5th dimension) the same as Ra's 4th density?

Yes. There are many views about which we can call "planetary transition". Some sources calls the new dimension of fourth, others sources fifth.

(02-01-2020, 02:27 PM)Great Central Sun Wrote: [ -> ]Are we in 4th density (5th dimension already)?

Dolores Cannon said in 2012 that we were already here.

It resonates with my inner knowing, so, yes, I'd say experiencing the 4th density is possible for humanoid entities in this dream. And I see more and more entities choosing it.

I've been searching this site for the answers to exactly the same question because I'm highly confused. There is a mass meditation tonight supposedly to aid the planet in some way and in many post I see talk of transitioning to 5D which seems impossible given Ra stating we are currently in 4D Transition. Given the process is approx 150-700 earth years if my memory serves me, then how in the world can we be transitioning into 5D? Are these folks implying 5th dimension but in the 4th Density? Aren't Density and dimensions the same thing? Its really very confusing to me, I'd welcome clarification from anyone here with an opinion about it. Here's the link to one of those videos regarding the mass meditation today, please share your thought on this, Thanks in advance! https://youtu.be/LBijnOjzv10

(02-01-2020, 03:37 PM)flofrog Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-01-2020, 03:03 PM)Great Central Sun Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-01-2020, 02:42 PM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]There are sources which talk about Earth going to fifth dimension instead fourth. Personally, I prefer the densities system due the harmonic and mathematical progression through the levels of the existence.

Is 5D according to her (5th dimension) the same as Ra's 4th density?

It's hard to say...   I am like Infinite and prefer to stay in Ra's perspective as it makes sense to my weak brain

And you know in some ways, Earth is already in higher dimension if you forget about chronological times....  

It's super-duper simple. In my opinion...

5D is a psyop. Just like flat earth. Anyone who claims anything about 5D is pushing disinfo. Period.

(04-04-2020, 06:07 PM)manifestgirl Wrote: [ -> ]Given the process is approx 150-700 earth years if my memory serves me, then how in the world can we be transitioning into 5D? Are these folks implying 5th dimension but in the 4th Density? Aren't Density and dimensions the same thing?

There are many, many views on the organization of dimensions in various esoteric, spiritual and new age sources. The idea that we are going to 5D is due to the fact that many believe that time is the fourth dimension. I don't particularly see any sense in that, I see dimension as a concept referring to space. Although technically space and time are one thing, then it doesn’t make any sense to take time as something apart.

About Ra's terminology, they used the terms "density" and "dimension" interchangeable, but also as different concepts. Here Ra speaks of our 5D:

Quote:...we have never been gone from your fifth dimension and have been working in this last minor cycle to prepare for harvest

.(14.4)

Ra explains here what density would be:

Quote:The term density is a, what you would call, mathematical one. The closest analogy is that of music, whereby after seven notes on your western type of scale, if you will, the eighth note begins a new octave. Within your great octave of existence which we share with you, there are seven octaves or densities. Within each density there are seven sub-densities. Within each sub-density, seven sub-sub-densities, and so on infinitely.

(16.51)

And here they use "plane" and "sub-density" as synonyms:

Quote:One more; that is, the permeability of the densities so that there may be communication from density to density and from plane to plane or sub-density to sub-density.

(90.25)

So, for me, sub-density, dimension and plane are the same thing. Thus, density is a vibratory spectrum where there are infinite divisions (the dimensions) that are organized in a power of 7.

Thank you Infinite, this clears it for me as well. I was a little lost.

I'm beyond grateful to you for trying to explain this to me, but honestly I'm still lost.

So we are NOT transitioning to 5th density, Earth is in the infant stages of 4th density and as mind body spirit complexes we are transitioning from either 3 to 4 + - or another 3...Correct?

I'm sorry if I seem dense, I'm truly just trying to have a clear understanding.

thank you again!

(04-04-2020, 07:50 PM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-04-2020, 06:07 PM)manifestgirl Wrote: [ -> ]Given the process is approx 150-700 earth years if my memory serves me, then how in the world can we be transitioning into 5D? Are these folks implying 5th dimension but in the 4th Density? Aren't Density and dimensions the same thing?

There are many, many views on the organization of dimensions in various esoteric, spiritual and new age sources. The idea that we are going to 5D is due to the fact that many believe that time is the fourth dimension. I don't particularly see any sense in that, I see dimension as a concept referring to space. Although technically space and time are one thing, then it doesn’t make any sense to take time as something apart.

About Ra's terminology, they used the terms "density" and "dimension" interchangeable, but also as different concepts. Here Ra speaks of our 5D:

Quote:...we have never been gone from your fifth dimension and have been working in this last minor cycle to prepare for harvest

.(14.4)

Ra explains here what density would be:

Quote:The term density is a, what you would call, mathematical one. The closest analogy is that of music, whereby after seven notes on your western type of scale, if you will, the eighth note begins a new octave. Within your great octave of existence which we share with you, there are seven octaves or densities. Within each density there are seven sub-densities. Within each sub-density, seven sub-sub-densities, and so on infinitely.

(16.51)

And here they use "plane" and "sub-density" as synonyms:

Quote:One more; that is, the permeability of the densities so that there may be communication from density to density and from plane to plane or sub-density to sub-density.

(90.25)

So, for me, sub-density, dimension and plane are the same thing. Thus, density is a vibratory spectrum where there are infinite divisions (the dimensions) that are organized in a power of 7.

Correct, we're going into 4th density.

People say 5D because they treat time as 4D.

(04-04-2020, 10:11 PM)manifestgirl Wrote: [ -> ]So we are NOT transitioning to 5th density, Earth is in the infant stages of 4th density and as mind body spirit complexes we are transitioning from either 3 to 4 + - or another 3...Correct?

Correct. A fourth density cycle has millions of years. So, the fifth density of Earth will begin millions of years from now.

Thank you THANK YOU, Thank you, finally I understand lol

I so appreciate everyone's patience with me.
Peace and Richest blessings to you all!

(04-04-2020, 10:47 PM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-04-2020, 10:11 PM)manifestgirl Wrote: [ -> ]So we are NOT transitioning to 5th density, Earth is in the infant stages of 4th density and as mind body spirit complexes we are transitioning from either 3 to 4 + - or another 3...Correct?

Correct. A fourth density cycle has millions of years. So, the fifth density of Earth will begin millions of years from now.

(02-01-2020, 02:27 PM)Great Central Sun Wrote: [ -> ]Are we in 4th density (5th dimension already)?

Dolores Cannon said in 2012 that we were already here.

Personally, I think the transition into 5d is simply a misconception of the way densities progress, and has been pushed by a lot of one of the "other" corners of the spiritual community. I don't want to call it misinformation, because in all realism their sources are about as solid to them as the Law of One is to a lot of the people on this site, but the idea is that we are currently in the third density, transitioning through the fourth density which is an incredibly short process, being intermediate to the "arrival" into the fifth density which, in description seems to pretty much be what many of us envision the fourth density as being. I see no point in opposing their ideas; like all religions and faiths the endgoal is really quite similar. However as far as spirituality is concerned, the 5d ascension community definitely comes across as a different "religion". I personally think that the Ra material is a very solid source of info, and the terms used by L/L are the ones i like to use for spiritual orientation and guidance.
There are some key differences though. In the 5d ascension, we draw this density of experience to us, and experience the transition within the incarnation; this (I think) is crucially different than what Ra describes, being that all third density beings and wanderers walk the steps of life at the END of the incarnation to determine the density needs of further experience. This directly opposes the "where we go one, we go all" foundation of the 5d ascension; describing the idea that even the non-seeking, non-polarized peoples of earth can experience this ascension. in their belief, our current incarnation may be lasting the several thousand years described after harvest to fourth density by Ra, (based on the idea that our 4d and their 5d are the same thing), contrary to where according to L/L all of us will inevitably die before walking the steps of light. Hope this kinda helps. Massive source of conflict for me due to the somewhat pushy and sometimes even insulting nature of the Qanon and 5d ascension movement regarding those still asleep and not polarizing. No disrespect! We all walk our own path, and this is simply my opinion. I feel the need to somewhat warn those sourcing information from the 5d movement, only because in my hypersensitivity and wariness, I do sense some slight negativity among its messages from time to time. Hope this helps!

After reading the LOO twice, I have found that I resonate with Ra's explanation of Densities than anyone else's. It use to bother me when I would read things that say we are transitioning to 5D because physically it's obvious we are still in 3D even if Earth is in its 4D transition. Our physical beingness is not the same from 3 to 4 to 5 and the life span according to Ra of a 4thD being is 90,000 yrs, so it does not resonate at all when I hear others say we are transitioning to 5D when our mother is in transitional 4th.

Several others here offered many explanations that helped clear this confusion up for me so in-spite of what Delores Cannon or anyone else says, I feel confident I understand enough that my focus is on raising my consciousness and vibration as consistently as possible, and do my best to be in STO more than in STS, so when ascension happens and its my turn to graduate, I actually do and am not obligated to redo 3D anywhere else.

Thank you for your point of view on this, I truly appreciate it.

(04-13-2020, 06:30 PM)Seb2466 Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-01-2020, 02:27 PM)Great Central Sun Wrote: [ -> ]Are we in 4th density (5th dimension already)?

Dolores Cannon said in 2012 that we were already here.

Personally, I think the transition into 5d is simply a misconception of the way densities progress, and has been pushed by a lot of one of the "other" corners of the spiritual community. I don't want to call it misinformation, because in all realism their sources are about as solid to them as the Law of One is to a lot of the people on this site, but the idea is that we are currently in the third density, transitioning through the fourth density which is an incredibly short process, being intermediate to the "arrival" into the fifth density which, in description seems to pretty much be what many of us envision the fourth density as being. I see no point in opposing their ideas; like all religions and faiths the endgoal is really quite similar. However as far as spirituality is concerned, the 5d ascension community definitely comes across as a different "religion". I personally think that the Ra material is a very solid source of info, and the terms used by L/L are the ones i like to use for spiritual orientation and guidance.
There are some key differences though. In the 5d ascension, we draw this density of experience to us, and experience the transition within the incarnation; this (I think) is crucially different than what Ra describes, being that all third density beings and wanderers walk the steps of life at the END of the incarnation to determine the density needs of further experience. This directly opposes the "where we go one, we go all" foundation of the 5d ascension; describing the idea that even the non-seeking, non-polarized peoples of earth can experience this ascension. in their belief, our current incarnation may be lasting the several thousand years described after harvest to fourth density by Ra, (based on the idea that our 4d and their 5d are the same thing), contrary to where according to L/L all of us will inevitably die before walking the steps of light. Hope this kinda helps. Massive source of conflict for me due to the somewhat pushy and sometimes even insulting nature of the Qanon and 5d ascension movement regarding those still asleep and not polarizing. No disrespect! We all walk our own path, and this is simply my opinion. I feel the need to somewhat warn those sourcing information from the 5d movement, only because in my hypersensitivity and wariness, I do sense some slight negativity among its messages from time to time. Hope this helps!

Although, Ra and Don seemed to used density and dimension interchangeably, I believe they have quite different meaning in our earthly modern science. Perhaps that is where the confusion arises.

If we want to compare it with another philosophy/source/belief system, we will have to deal with:
- Ra's definition of density and dimension
- Our human scientific definition of density and dimension
- The other philosophy's definition of density and dimension
To compare them would require a good understanding of all 3 systems. When people use them interchangeably and assume they are the same, it is easy to become confused. 

Personally, I find that using Ra's perspective for "density", but our earthly scientific perspective for "dimension" gives me the best clarity. And I treat Ra's usage of "dimension" as accommodating Don's questions. I recalled Ra mentioning that there are 3 space and 3 time "dimensions" but i can't find the exact reference. From a scientific pov, that would mean we live in a 6-dimension world. And although I don't recall Ra actually saying it, I believe that all densities have 3 space and 3 time "dimensions" because all densities exist in space/time and time/space. 

So my interpretation in summary:
Human being's Science Perspective:
-Density=Mass/Volume
-Dimensions in the world: 3 space and 1 time dimensions (current consensus, excluding string theory which is still theoretical)

Ra / Law of One Perspective:
-Density: 1-8th density system
-Dimensions in the world: 3 space and 3 time dimensions

With all that said, I find that the terms are merely labels, it doesn't change the criteria required to progress to the next level. And it is meeting the criteria that matters.

(04-18-2020, 03:45 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]Although, Ra and Don seemed to used density and dimension interchangeably, I believe they have quite different meaning in our earthly modern science. Perhaps that is where the confusion arises.

If we want to compare it with another philosophy/source/belief system, we will have to deal with:
- Ra's definition of density and dimension
- Our human scientific definition of density and dimension
- The other philosophy's definition of density and dimension
To compare them would require a good understanding of all 3 systems. When people use them interchangeably and assume they are the same, it is easy to become confused. 

Personally, I find that using Ra's perspective for "density", but our earthly scientific perspective for "dimension" gives me the best clarity. And I treat Ra's usage of "dimension" as accommodating Don's questions. I recalled Ra mentioning that there are 3 space and 3 time "dimensions" but i can't find the exact reference. From a scientific pov, that would mean we live in a 6-dimension world. And although I don't recall Ra actually saying it, I believe that all densities have 3 space and 3 time "dimensions" because all densities exist in space/time and time/space. 

So my interpretation in summary:
Human being's Science Perspective:
-Density=Mass/Volume
-Dimensions in the world: 3 space and 1 time dimensions (current consensus, excluding string theory which is still theoretical)

Ra / Law of One Perspective:
-Density: 1-8th density system
-Dimensions in the world: 3 space and 3 time dimensions

With all that said, I find that the terms are merely labels, it doesn't change the criteria required to progress to the next level. And it is meeting the criteria that matters.

The 3 space and 3 time dimensions was in the parts where Don asked about Dewey Larson's physics system. We exist in space/time which has 3 spacial dimensions and one time dimension. Dreams and other activities exist in time/space which has 3 time dimensions and 1 space dimension. Ra and the other L/L Research channeled sources say they are visiting through time/space. So when they make statements such as existing in earth's 5th dimension, they might be referring to one of the 3 time dimensions within time/space.

I don't know why people would assume there is a way to skip from 3rd to 5th. Unless they think 7th and 9th are the next two?

"Personally, I find that using Ra's perspective for "density", but our earthly scientific perspective for "dimension" gives me the best clarity."

I agree 100000%, that was extremely well put. Thank you

(04-18-2020, 05:14 PM)Dtris Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-18-2020, 03:45 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]Although, Ra and Don seemed to used density and dimension interchangeably, I believe they have quite different meaning in our earthly modern science. Perhaps that is where the confusion arises.

If we want to compare it with another philosophy/source/belief system, we will have to deal with:
- Ra's definition of density and dimension
- Our human scientific definition of density and dimension
- The other philosophy's definition of density and dimension
To compare them would require a good understanding of all 3 systems. When people use them interchangeably and assume they are the same, it is easy to become confused. 

Personally, I find that using Ra's perspective for "density", but our earthly scientific perspective for "dimension" gives me the best clarity. And I treat Ra's usage of "dimension" as accommodating Don's questions. I recalled Ra mentioning that there are 3 space and 3 time "dimensions" but i can't find the exact reference. From a scientific pov, that would mean we live in a 6-dimension world. And although I don't recall Ra actually saying it, I believe that all densities have 3 space and 3 time "dimensions" because all densities exist in space/time and time/space. 

So my interpretation in summary:
Human being's Science Perspective:
-Density=Mass/Volume
-Dimensions in the world: 3 space and 1 time dimensions (current consensus, excluding string theory which is still theoretical)

Ra / Law of One Perspective:
-Density: 1-8th density system
-Dimensions in the world: 3 space and 3 time dimensions

With all that said, I find that the terms are merely labels, it doesn't change the criteria required to progress to the next level. And it is meeting the criteria that matters.

The 3 space and 3 time dimensions was in the parts where Don asked about Dewey Larson's physics system. We exist in space/time which has 3 spacial dimensions and one time dimension. Dreams and other activities exist in time/space which has 3 time dimensions and 1 space dimension. Ra and the other L/L Research channeled sources say they are visiting through time/space. So when they make statements such as existing in earth's 5th dimension, they might be referring to one of the 3 time dimensions within time/space.

I don't know why people would assume there is a way to skip from 3rd to 5th. Unless they think 7th and 9th are the next two?

(04-18-2020, 05:14 PM)Dtris Wrote: [ -> ]The 3 space and 3 time dimensions was in the parts where Don asked about Dewey Larson's physics system. We exist in space/time which has 3 spacial dimensions and one time dimension. Dreams and other activities exist in time/space which has 3 time dimensions and 1 space dimension. Ra and the other L/L Research channeled sources say they are visiting through time/space. So when they make statements such as existing in earth's 5th dimension, they might be referring to one of the 3 time dimensions within time/space.

While I think Ra only mentioned Larson's system but might not explicitly mention the the idea of 3 spacial and 3 time dimensions, I find that this idea is elegant and there is symmetry in the structure. I don't have much interest or knowledge in Larson's system but my (limited) understanding is that 3 spacial and 3 time dimension are always considered in the calculations. And since space/time and time/space exist concurrently, that would mean there are supposedly 3 spacial and 3 time dimensions concurrently. 

I admit that based on this, I assumed, without proof, for elegance and convenience sake, that both space/time and time/space are of 3 spacial and 3 time dimensions, but I accept that the exact details are a mystery. For example in space/time, it could be that there is only 1 time dimension like what you said (or only 1 time is used), or that the 3 time dimension are compressed into 1 dimension, or that time flows in all 3 time dimensions which might be similar to that of the Many-Worlds Interpretation. I think the last option is the most plausible though.

Regarding 14.4, I do not know what Ra meant by "fifth dimension" (it occurred only once in the material I think), and interpret Ra as saying "they never left our side".

(04-18-2020, 05:14 PM)Dtris Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know why people would assume there is a way to skip from 3rd to 5th. Unless they think 7th and 9th are the next two?

Assuming they are using the usual (scientific) meaning of dimension, I would agree with infinite's view that since time is supposedly the fourth dimension, people might think the "next natural progression" will be 5D. 

(04-18-2020, 03:45 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]I recalled Ra mentioning that there are 3 space and 3 time "dimensions" but i can't find the exact reference.

It was not Ra, but Hatonn through Don channeling. Here the link: https://llresearch.org/transcripts/issue..._0800.aspx.

(04-18-2020, 03:45 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]And although I don't recall Ra actually saying it, I believe that all densities have 3 space and 3 time "dimensions" because all densities exist in space/time and time/space. 

Actually Hatonn said "There are six spaces and six times in each density."

As I said above, I see time and space as inseparable. For this reason I preffer use the term "dimension" to the sub-densities/planes of each density. In this view, the dimensions are infinite as Ra said.

An interesting detail is the description of astral clairvoyance given by Charles Webtster Leadbter, one of the most famous theosophists. Like me, he believed that the astral plane is the fourth dimension, and he noticed that when visualizing an object with astral vision a new dimension is added, it is like seeing all sides at the same time. He also said that the tesseract, the hypothetical fourth-dimensional cube, is a figure on the astral plane.

Here are excerpts from the book "Clairvoyance", written in 1899:

Quote:Time is not in reality the fourth dimension at all; yet to look at it for the moment from that point of view is some slight help towards grasping the ungraspable. Suppose that we hold a wooden cone at right angles to a sheet of paper, and slowly push it through its point first. A microbe living on the surface of that sheet of paper, and having no power of conceiving anything outside of that surface, could not only never see the cone as a whole, but could form no sort of conception of such a body at all. All that he would see would be the sudden appearance of a tiny circle, which would gradually and mysteriously grow larger and larger until it vanished from his world as suddenly and incomprehensibly as it had come into it.

Quote:Here we have at once the keynote, the principal factor of the change; the man is looking at everything from an absolutely new point of view, entirely outside of anything that he has ever imagined before. He has no longer the slightest difficulty in reading any page in a closed book, because he is not now looking at it through all the other pages before it or behind it, but is looking straight down upon it as though it were the only page to be seen. The depth at which a vein of metal or of coal may lie is no longer a barrier to his sight of it, because he is not now looking through the intervening depth of earth at all. The thickness of a wall, or the number of walls intervening between the observer and the object, would make a great deal of difference to the clearness of the etheric sight; they would make no difference whatever to the astral sight, because on the astral plane they would not intervene between the observer and the object. Of course that sounds paradoxical and impossible, and it is quite inexplicable to a mind not specially trained to grasp the idea; yet it is none the less absolutely true.

This carries us straight into the middle of the much-vexed question of the fourth dimension - a question of the deepest interest, though one that we cannot pretend to discuss in the space at our disposal. Those who wish to study it as it deserves are recommended to begin with Mr.C.H.Hinton's Scientific Romances or Dr.A.T.Schofield's Another World, and then follow on with the former author's larger work, A New Era of Thought. Mr. Hinton not only claims to be able himself to grasp mentally some of the simpler fourth dimensional figures, but also states that anyone who will take the trouble to follow out his directions may with perseverance acquire that mental grasp likewise. I am not certain that the power to do this is within the reach of everyone, as he thinks, for it appears to me to require considerable mathematical ability; but I can at any rate bear witness that he tesseract or fourth-dimensional cube which he describes is a  reality, for it is quite a familiar figure upon the astral plane.

(04-19-2020, 02:27 PM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-18-2020, 03:45 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]I recalled Ra mentioning that there are 3 space and 3 time "dimensions" but i can't find the exact reference.

It was not Ra, but Hatonn through Don channeling. Here the link: https://llresearch.org/transcripts/issue..._0800.aspx.

Thanks for the reference. To be frank, I do not remember if I have read the transcript from Hatonn before or I got the idea from Ra's mention of Larson's system. But at least I have a more definite source now.

(04-19-2020, 02:27 PM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]Actually Hatonn said "There are six spaces and six times in each density."

In this case, taken literally it means my assumptions are wrong.

(04-19-2020, 02:27 PM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-19-2020, 02:27 PM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]As I said above, I see time and space as inseparable. For this reason I preffer use the term "dimension" to the sub-densities/planes of each density. In this view, the dimensions are infinite as Ra said.

An interesting detail is the description of astral clairvoyance given by Charles Webtster Leadbter, one of the most famous theosophists. Like me, he believed that the astral plane is the fourth dimension, and he noticed that when visualizing an object with astral vision a new dimension is added, it is like seeing all sides at the same time. He also said that the tesseract, the hypothetical fourth-dimensional cube, is a figure on the astral plane.

Here are excerpts from the book "Clairvoyance", written in 1899:

Quote:Time is not in reality the fourth dimension at all; yet to look at it for the moment from that point of view is some slight help towards grasping the ungraspable. Suppose that we hold a wooden cone at right angles to a sheet of paper, and slowly push it through its point first. A microbe living on the surface of that sheet of paper, and having no power of conceiving anything outside of that surface, could not only never see the cone as a whole, but could form no sort of conception of such a body at all. All that he would see would be the sudden appearance of a tiny circle, which would gradually and mysteriously grow larger and larger until it vanished from his world as suddenly and incomprehensibly as it had come into it.

Quote:Here we have at once the keynote, the principal factor of the change; the man is looking at everything from an absolutely new point of view, entirely outside of anything that he has ever imagined before. He has no longer the slightest difficulty in reading any page in a closed book, because he is not now looking at it through all the other pages before it or behind it, but is looking straight down upon it as though it were the only page to be seen. The depth at which a vein of metal or of coal may lie is no longer a barrier to his sight of it, because he is not now looking through the intervening depth of earth at all. The thickness of a wall, or the number of walls intervening between the observer and the object, would make a great deal of difference to the clearness of the etheric sight; they would make no difference whatever to the astral sight, because on the astral plane they would not intervene between the observer and the object. Of course that sounds paradoxical and impossible, and it is quite inexplicable to a mind not specially trained to grasp the idea; yet it is none the less absolutely true.

This carries us straight into the middle of the much-vexed question of the fourth dimension - a question of the deepest interest, though one that we cannot pretend to discuss in the space at our disposal. Those who wish to study it as it deserves are recommended to begin with Mr.C.H.Hinton's Scientific Romances or Dr.A.T.Schofield's Another World, and then follow on with the former author's larger work, A New Era of Thought. Mr. Hinton not only claims to be able himself to grasp mentally some of the simpler fourth dimensional figures, but also states that anyone who will take the trouble to follow out his directions may with perseverance acquire that mental grasp likewise. I am not certain that the power to do this is within the reach of everyone, as he thinks, for it appears to me to require considerable mathematical ability; but I can at any rate bear witness that he tesseract or fourth-dimensional cube which he describes is a  reality, for it is quite a familiar figure upon the astral plane.

If you believe that the astral plane is the fourth dimension, do you mind sharing what are the first three sub-density/dimensions/planes by your definition?

Perhaps I understood wrongly but it seem to me from your description and excerpts, that the fourth dimension is an additional space dimension which allows the observations to be made, and thus allowing the tesseract to be observed. This would also only be possible if the first 3 dimensions are thus also space. And this seems to be identical to the "scientific" view of dimension.

just to share what i heard from this video;
we're in 3D(Dimension) earth now, will ascend to 5D(dimension). 3D,5D co-exist all the times.
in the transition process, there's a lot of fluctuation, which is 4D(Dimension)

this is the video has some diagrams which explains this clearly (in my humble opinion)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXipt-Vq...Io2R4kYmn4

(04-20-2020, 10:23 AM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]If you believe that the astral plane is the fourth dimension, may I ask what are the first three sub-density/dimensions/planes by your definition?

Coincidentally, I was just writing about it in one of my diaries. I have no doubt that this physical plane is the third sub-density / plane. The mystery lies in the first two sub-planes of the third. I still don't have a definition for them, but I suppose they are analogous to the first and second density, just like our first two bodies.

A hypothesis of mine is that they would be the first and second density themselves, since in space / time there is apparently a relationship between environment and consciousness (Ra said that the sub-planes of the physical plane are not vibratory bands as in the astral plane for example, but levels of consciousness of incarnated entities). However, there are some inconsistencies for this hypothesis. The main one is that as the densities are octaves, the vibrations of the third density are of a true yellow color and two octaves above the first and one above the second density. Thus, the mystery remains.

(04-20-2020, 10:23 AM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps I understood wrongly but it seem to me from your description and excerpts, that the fourth dimension is an additional space dimension which allows the observations to be made, and thus allowing the tesseract to be observed. This would also only be possible if the first 3 dimensions are thus also space. And this seems to be identical to the "scientific" view of dimension.

Yes, that's right. However, I would say that more than spatial dimensionality is added to each dimension. At least in terms of inner planes of the third density, time also changes, being spherical and non-linear. I have no idea if in space / time of the fourth density time is linear, but Ra said that there is only past, present and future in the third density, which makes me think that time in the fourth density is much more fluid than in the third .

(04-20-2020, 11:16 AM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-20-2020, 10:23 AM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]If you believe that the astral plane is the fourth dimension, may I ask what are the first three sub-density/dimensions/planes by your definition?

Coincidentally, I was just writing about it in one of my diaries. I have no doubt that this physical plane is the third sub-density / plane. The mystery lies in the first two sub-planes of the third. I still don't have a definition for them, but I suppose they are analogous to the first and second density, just like our first two bodies.

A hypothesis of mine is that they would be the first and second density themselves, since in space / time there is apparently a relationship between environment and consciousness (Ra said that the sub-planes of the physical plane are not vibratory bands as in the astral plane for example, but levels of consciousness of incarnated entities). However, there are some inconsistencies for this hypothesis. The main one is that as the densities are octaves, the vibrations of the third density are of a true yellow color and two octaves above the first and one above the second density. Thus, the mystery remains.

(04-20-2020, 10:23 AM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps I understood wrongly but it seem to me from your description and excerpts, that the fourth dimension is an additional space dimension which allows the observations to be made, and thus allowing the tesseract to be observed. This would also only be possible if the first 3 dimensions are thus also space. And this seems to be identical to the "scientific" view of dimension.

Yes, that's right. However, I would say that more than spatial dimensionality is added to each dimension. At least in terms of inner planes of the third density, time also changes, being spherical and non-linear. I have no idea if in space / time of the fourth density time is linear, but Ra said that there is only past, present and future in the third density, which makes me think that time in the fourth density is much more fluid than in the third .

I think there are some major differences in our beliefs - while I see the densities as a subset of space and time, I believe you see space and time as a subset of the densities (7 times more space and time than mine?). The statement by Oxal that you quoted seems to point a structure more similar to that of your view. I think this approach is quite consistent as well. However, text such as Ra's reply in 11.4 suggests that we are able to interact with first and second density objects and I conclude from this that we can share the same space with them:

Quote:11.4:
Ra: I am Ra. There is a sphere in the area opposite your sun of a very, very cold nature, but large enough to skew certain statistical figures. This sphere should not properly be called a planet as it is locked in first density.

 As such, I wonder if these are just different valid points of view given the limitations of third density. And I thank you for sharing this different point of view.

From the second part of your reply, it looks to me that you have merged the concept of the sub-densities and the dimensionality of space and time together, implying that the first sub-density has sort of only one spatial dimension, which I find it hard to believe. I would agree that from the view of your definition, the first 2 sub-planes would seem to coincide with the first 2 densities. But as the first two densities has also at least 3 spatial dimensions (e.g. planets, elements, plants, animals), there seems to be a contradiction when combining space, time and sub-densities in this manner.

While our physical plane is in space/time, according to Ra 21.7 ("These particular entities were incarnate in time/space third density, that is, the so-called inner planes"), the inner plane is in time/space, my guess is that they may not even be on adjacent planes. My guess is when people goes to the inner plane, they didn't go to a "higher dimension" but instead moved from space/time to time/space. 

(04-20-2020, 11:16 AM)Infinite Wrote: [ -> ]At least in terms of inner planes of the third density, time also changes, being spherical and non-linear. I have no idea if in space / time of the fourth density time is linear, but Ra said that there is only past, present and future in the third density, which makes me think that time in the fourth density is much more fluid than in the third .

I am not sure what do you mean by linear, do you mean one dimensional as is suggestive in the transcript? My understanding that the inner plane is in time/space where time is 3(6) dimensional and thus may be seen as spherical and is the same for time/space all densities.
I do not understand the exact meaning of Oxal's description of "Space may be thought of as linear, if time is thought of as volumetric. Or you may reverse the process, as you do within your limitation, and consider space volumetric and time linear." but I interpret this linear definition as a degree-of-freedom concept - analogous to a narrow pipe in 3rd density, one is in 3D space but can only move forward or backward (1 degree of freedom, linear movement). In space/time, my thinking is that time still flows in 3 dimensions but only forward/backward, perhaps in a spherical expansion visually, the additional 2 dimensions allowing the occurrence of all possibilities of events. 

(04-20-2020, 02:07 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are some major differences in our beliefs - while I see the densities as a subset of space and time, I believe you see space and time as a subset of the densities (7 times more space and time than mine?).

No. I see it like you.

I will try to explain my vision on this topic, trying my best to base myself on LOO.

I classify as dimension the same that Ra called sub-density / plane. Within our third density there are 7 sub-densities / planes / dimensions, within each sub-density there are 7 sub-sub-densities / sub-plans / sub-dimensions and so it increases infinitely. These 7 divisions are analogous / representations of the 7 rays and also of the 7 densities. Therefore, the dimensions of the third density are infinite and when I use the term fourth dimension it is as if I were referring to a color. This color itself can be divided into infinite frequencies or infinite tones. I do not classify these sub-densities / planes / dimensions as simply spatial and temporal perceptions. A more precise term is vibratory frequency.

Now, these 7 sub-densities / dimensions / planes are divided into space / time and time / space. In esotericism, this difference is called outer planes and inner plans. I suppose you understand the difference between space / time and time / space.

Space / time is where incarnations take place, catalysis is experienced and lessons are learned. Physically we can consider that this space / time is that whose photons that make up physical matter (since everything that exists is formed by a universal substance, Ra called it Light, the ancients called it Ether or Akasha) vibrate at a speed that approaches the speed of light. That is why physicists say that the borderline speed of the universe is the speed of light. Ra said that when a ship approaches the speed of light it disappears from that reality and temporarily exists in time / space. This is how the slingshot effect works.

Time / space is where healing and revision of an incarnation takes place. Time approaches infinity and that is why time is no longer linear, that is, it is not counted every second, but it can be accessed as a whole. It's like opening any page in a book instead of reading each page sequentially. It is my hypothesis that each plane vibrates faster and faster and therefore is getting closer and closer to zero time or infinite time.

In my view, dimensions 1-3 form the physical plane, while dimensions 4-7 form the inner planes.

(04-20-2020, 02:07 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]The statement by Oxal that you quoted seems to point a structure more similar to that of your view. I think this approach is quite consistent as well. However, text such as Ra's reply in 11.4 suggests that we are able to interact with first and second density objects and I conclude from this that we can share the same space with them:

Quote:11.4:
Ra: I am Ra. There is a sphere in the area opposite your sun of a very, very cold nature, but large enough to skew certain statistical figures. This sphere should not properly be called a planet as it is locked in first density.

Yes, I know that part well. As I said, it is only a hypothesis. But we have some clues. First, the 7 sub-divisions of the physical plane are not vibration bands:

Quote:In your particular space/time continuum distortion there are seven sub-planes of mind/body/spirit complexes. You will discover the vibrational nature of these seven planes as you pass through your experiential distortions, meeting other-selves of the various levels which correspond to the energy influx centers of the physical vehicle.

(17.38)

What I can assume at this moment, is that as entities from first to third density live in the same environment, the difference is in the perception and the way in which they can interact with that environment. From the fourth onwards, the environments are different, more subtle and the bodies of the entities are also more subtle than ours. However, I have no idea if 4D entities can see 5D and 6D in the same environment as animals can see us.

(04-20-2020, 02:07 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]From the second part of your reply, it looks to me that you have merged the concept of the sub-densities and the dimensionality of space and time together, implying that the first sub-density has sort of only one spatial dimension, which I find it hard to believe. I would agree that from the view of your definition, the first 2 sub-planes would seem to coincide with the first 2 densities. But as the first two densities has also at least 3 spatial dimensions (e.g. planets, elements, plants, animals), there seems to be a contradiction when combining space, time and sub-densities in this manner.

I gave my opinion on this above. Just a detail: taking into account all the literature on the astral plane, it is a fact that on the astral plane a dimension is added. This is one of the reasons why I prefer to consider it as our fourth dimension.

(04-20-2020, 02:07 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]While our physical plane is in space/time, according to Ra 21.7 ("These particular entities were incarnate in time/space third density, that is, the so-called inner planes"), the inner plane is in time/space, my guess is that they may not even be on adjacent planes. My guess is when people goes to the inner plane, they didn't go to a "higher dimension" but instead moved from space/time to time/space. 

Yes, I mentioned that above too.

(04-20-2020, 02:07 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]I am not sure what do you mean by linear, do you mean one dimensional as is suggestive in the transcript? My understanding that the inner plane is in time/space where time is 3(6) dimensional and thus may be seen as spherical and is the same for time/space all densities.

Time in time / space is like I said spherical. I would say that it does not make sense to speak in dimensions of time, but of an eternal present.

(04-20-2020, 02:07 PM)keith Wrote: [ -> ]I do not understand the exact meaning of Oxal's description of "Space may be thought of as linear, if time is thought of as volumetric. Or you may reverse the process, as you do within your limitation, and consider space volumetric and time linear." but I interpret this linear definition as a degree-of-freedom concept - analogous to a narrow pipe in 3rd density, one is in 3D space but can only move forward or backward (1 degree of freedom, linear movement). In space/time, my thinking is that time still flows in 3 dimensions but only forward/backward, perhaps in a spherical expansion visually, the additional 2 dimensions allowing the occurrence of all possibilities of events.

I see it too.

thank you Infinite, lovely clarification. I have a feeling that describing inner planes is not altogether helped by our language limitations.. lol

but time in time/space seen as spherical is a pretty good image within our limited words

(04-20-2020, 05:39 PM)flofrog Wrote: [ -> ]I have a feeling that describing inner planes is not altogether helped by our language limitations.. lol

Me too. This attempt of mine is just to outline. But the characteristics of describing stop at the middle astral plane. Furthermore, I am speechless. I have already experienced indescribable senses outside the body. Something like the color of sounds.

Really enlightening chapter on fourth dimension. It's from the book "The Astral Body" by Arthur E. Powell:

Quote:

CHAPTER 18

THE FOURTH DIMENSION

There are many characteristics of the astral world which agree with remarkable exactitude with a world of four dimensions, as conceived by geometry and mathematics. So close, in fact, is this agreement, that cases are known where a purely intellectual study of the geometry of the fourth dimension has opened up astral sight in the student.

The classic books on the subject are those of C. H. Hinton: Scientific Romances, Vols. I and II: A New Era of Thought: The Fourth Dimension. These are strongly recommended by C. W. Leadbeater, who states that the study of the fourth dimension is the best method he knows to obtain a conception of the conditions which prevail on the astral plane, and that C. H. Hinton's exposition of the fourth dimension is the only one which gives any kind of explanation down here of the constantly observed facts of astral vision.

Other, and later books are several by Claude Bragdon: The Beautiful Necessity: A Primer of Higher Space: Fourth Dimensional Vistas; etc., Tertium Organum (a most illuminating work) by P. D. Ouspensky, and no doubt many others.

For those who have made no study of this subject we may give here the very barest outline of some of the main features underlying the fourth dimension.

A point, which has “position but no magnitude”, has no dimensions: a line, created by the movement of a point, has one dimension, length: a surface, created by the movement of a line, at right angles to itself, has two dimensions, length and breadth: a solid, created by the movement of a surface at right angles to itself, has three dimensions, length, breadth and thickness.

A tesseract is a hypothetical object, created by the movement of a solid, in a new direction at right angles to itself, having four dimensions, length, breadth, thickness and another, at right angles to these three, but incapable of being represented in our world of three dimensions.

Many of the properties of a tesseract can be deduced, according to the following table:



The tesseract, as described by C. H. Hinton, is stated by C. W. Leadbeater to be a reality, being quite a familiar figure on the astral plane. In Some Occult Experiences by J. Van Manen, an attempt is made to represent a 4-dimensional globe graphically.

There is a close and suggestive parallel between phenomena which could be produced by means of a three-dimensional object in a hypothetical world of two dimensions inhabited by a being conscious only of two dimensions, and many astral phenomena as they appear to us living in the physical or three-dimensional world. Thus:

(1) Objects, by being lifted through the third dimension, could be made to appear in or disappear from the two-dimensional world at will.

(2) An object completely surrounded by a line could be lifted out of the enclosed space through the third dimension.

(3) By bending a two-dimensional world, represented by a sheet of paper, two distant points could be brought together, or even made to coincide, thus destroying the two-dimensional conception of distance.

(4) A right-handed object could be turned over through the third dimension and made to re-appear as a left-handed object.

(5) By looking down, from the third dimension, on to a two-dimensional object, every point of the
latter could be seen at once, and free from the distortion of perspective.

To a being limited to a conception of two dimensions, the above would appear “ miraculous”, and completely incomprehensible.

It is curious that precisely similar tricks can be and are constantly being played upon us, as is well known to spiritualists: (1) entities and objects appear and disappear: (2) “ apports” of articles from great distances are made: (3) articles are removed from closed boxes: (4) space appears to be practically annihilated; (5) an object can be reversed, i.e., a right hand turned into a left hand: (6) all parts of an object, e.g., of a cube, are seen simultaneously and free from all distortion of perspective: similarly the whole of the matter of a closed book can be seen at once.

The explanation of the welling-up of force, e.g., in Chakrams, apparently from nowhere, is of course that it comes from the fourth dimension.

A liquid, poured on to a surface, tends to spread itself out in two dimensions, becoming very thin in the third dimension. Similarly a gas tends to spread itself in three dimensions, and it may be that in so doing it becomes smaller in the fourth dimension: i.e., the density of a gas may be a measure of its relative thickness in the fourth dimension.

It is clear that there is no need to stop at four dimensions: for all we know, there may be infinite dimensions of space. At any rate, it seems certain that the astral world is four-dimensional, the mental five-dimensional, and the buddhic six-dimensional.

It should be clear that if there are, say, seven dimensions at all, there are seven dimensions always and everywhere: i.e., there is no such thing as a third or fourth-dimensional being. The apparent difference is due to the limited power of perception of the entity concerned, not to any change in the objects perceived. This idea is very well worked out in Tertium Organum by Ouspensky.

Nevertheless a man may develop astral consciousness and still be unable to perceive or appreciate the fourth dimension. In fact it is certain that the average man does not perceive the fourth dimension at all when he enters the astral plane. He realises it only as a certain blurring, and most men go through their astral lives without discovering the reality of the fourth dimension in the matter surrounding them.

Entities, such as nature-spirits, which belong to the astral plane, have by nature the faculty of seeing the four-dimensional aspect of all objects, but even they do not see them perfectly, since they perceive only the astral matter in them and not the physical, just as we perceive the physical and not the astral.

The passage of an object through another does not raise the question of the fourth dimension, but may be brought about by disintegration — a purely three-dimensional method.

Time is not in reality the fourth dimension at all: yet to regard the problem from the point of view of time is some slight, help towards understanding it. The passage of a cone through a sheet of paper would appear to an entity living on the sheet of paper as a circle altering in size: the entity would of course be incapable of perceiving all the stages of the circle as existing together as parts of one cone. Similarly for us the growth of a solid object viewed from the buddhic plane corresponds to the view of the cone as a whole, and thus throws some light on our own delusion of past, present and future, and on the faculty of prevision.

The transcendental view of time is very well treated in C. H. Hinton's story Stella, which is included in Scientific Romances, Vol. II. There are also two interesting references to this conception in The Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, page 69, and Vol. II, page 466.

It is an interesting and significant observation that geometry as we have it now is but a fragment, an exoteric preparation for the esoteric reality. Having lost the true sense of space, the first step towards that knowledge is the cognition of the fourth dimension.

We may conceive the Monad at the beginning of its evolution to be able to move and to see in infinite dimensions, one of these being cut off at each downward step, until for the physical brain-consciousness only three are left. Thus by involution into matter we are cut off from the knowledge of all but a minute part of the worlds which surround us, and even what is left is but imperfectly seen.

With four-dimensional sight it may be observed that the planets which are isolated in our three-dimensions are four-dimensionally joined, these globes being in fact the points of petals which are part of one great flower: hence the Hindu conception of the solar system as a lotus.

There is also, viâ a higher dimension, a direct connection between the heart of the sun and the centre of the earth, so that elements appear in the earth without passing through what we call the surface.

A study of the fourth dimension seems to lead the way direct to mysticism. Thus C. H. Hinton constantly uses the phrase “casting out the self”, pointing out that in order to appreciate a solid four-dimensionally it is necessary to regard it not from any one point of view but from all points of view simultaneously: i.e., the “self ” or particular, isolated point of view must be transcended and replaced by the general and unselfish view.

One is also reminded of the famous saying of St. Paul (Ephesians iii, 17-18): “That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth and height.”

Source: http://hpb.narod.ru/AstralBodyByPowell-B.htm#18