Bring4th

Dear Wanderers, I am a bit confused about the concept of free will and want to discuss it. Maybe I missunderstood something?

I believe that we were all the same in all aspecs while we were one with the One, but then we enter the wheel of life, or incarnations, or densities of being-ness. Through eons of "time" we incarnate here and there in different kind of life forms, experiencing different kind of situations and different other selves, expanding the consciousness. I believe that consciousness is what is created when immaterial essence, that is spirit, coalesces with materia, or physical body, which is equiped with "blind" drive of instincts and urges. I think that is what Ra refers to as "mind". Well, anyway, all this countless incarnations through eons of time is what shapes us in different ways and makes us to those shiny unique diamonds that sparkles in our own unique ways.

Free will that Ra is talking about is a concept, understood by me, as something that we can do something about.

Beeing unique there is only one path for each and one of us that is "right". All roads lead to Rome, but there is only one that is right for you. We can fight our true self as much as we want and we can hide our true selves as much as we want, but it will only prolong the inavoidable – to make that only choice that is "right". What I mean is if someone is supposed to go negative way to come to Creator, can this entity fight it somehow and "choose" the positive way anyway? This thought crossed my mind when I recognized that true voice inside myself. When I was "off-the-road", when I was doing the "wrong" thing, the thing I am not "ment" to do, it felt wrong, and not only that, it felt bad inside. I get hurt when I do things that are not "right". When we doing "wrong" we suffer and become hurt, and we continue to suffer until we find our way "home" and do finally what is "right".

So we can fight as much as we want, but we can't overcome our true essence, our being, ie who we are, and therefore we can't overcome that unique, "right", path/choice that is for each and one of us. We will prolong the path by fighting and suffering but eventually we will get tired and we will give up. So where is the free will in that? I really don't get it...

There is no "right" path for anyone, or path they're "supposed to" take. You could say there's an optimal path if you used your catalyst efficiently 100% of the time, but almost no one chooses that. We all have free will and can use or ignore our catalyst as much we like and polarize as much or as little as we like. The fact that were on a particular path now does make it the "right" path for us, right now, but that doesn't mean it's the one we were "supposed to" (who would decide that?) take.

I think you're confused about free will because you're assuming determinism takes precedence over it. If there is any determinism at all other than universal laws and your pre-incarnative choices then its a field of possiblities/probabilities at best.

Well, you're saying there is only one "right" path for us. That "Right"ness is a bit of a magical quality. I think if you would observe it closely it will become clear it is merely a deeply held inner value judgment... We are not bound by the universe to do what is "right" to our own values. We can bind ourselves to that. But if we do, it'll be our free will.

What you're speaking about is your inner guide, which is you... And you should follow it yes, but no one outside yourself is dictating what it believes.

This inner voice can change over time.

What I mean by the "right" path/choice is we are who we are and in 3D there is the choice to make, that is to love, in either way, ie STO or STS. But is there any choice to make really? When we do wrong things we are hurt and get confused and so on, until we figure that out and make the "right" choices, ie choices that feels good inside.

turtledude - you said that no one chooses to use the catalyst at 100%, but is there really a choice? Doesn't it has something to do with confusion. If we would know better, we would use it at 100%, but we don't know better. We are like blind mice that trying to find our way out of the labyrint and the only thing that guides us is our own feeling of "right" and "wrong" - thats what I mean by free will? Not that it is determined to be in some way, which I don't exclude, Ali, but because of everything is allready there, inside you - therefore you can't really choose... It may appear to you that you have a choice, but there is none really, sooner or later, you have to come "home" and make that "right" choice... Don't know if I made myself clear here though... Sorry.

What I mean in more simple way to put it is - when I was "asleep" I thought and acted as I were "supposed" to think and act considering my enviroment, backround and personality. It was some kind of "autopilot". Now when I am "awake" (at least as I consider it ) I can't act or think in any other way than the "right" way for me, or I will hurt myself and I will suffer.

In either way it seems that evolution of both the physical and the "mind" is determined to be in a certain way and it only seems to us that we can do something about it, that we have a choice, when it in actual way nothing to do than accept and surrender. That's what puzzling me... Or did I missunderstood something?

I am intellectually aware of the fact that catalyst hits me all the time and that I could use it 100% efficiently, but I don't. Sometimes I forgot a situation is catalyst, sometimes I know it is but its hard to make a polarizing choice, usually I end up making the choice that makes me polarize more STO but sometimes its after alot of internal struggle. I don't see what's confusing about it to you. If I really, really, really wanted to I could use my catalyst 100% efficiently from this moment on but it comes down to my free will, how much I want to do that, how motivated I am to do that, how well I can handle pain. Are you saying its not free will because we don't have that many choices? As long as you have more than 1 choice its free will. Less choices sometimes is a good thing, it lets you explore those choices more fully.

Why if evolution of the physical and the mind is determined to be in a specific way would this exclude you from having a free will? Maybe it's you that is the determining factor?

In physics they know that the observer determines the state of the universe. That's a pretty big deal... Perhaps the act of observation is the act of creation.

depending on the balance of the entity and its advancedness there are probably on average 3-4 or so paths that are feasible at a given time. one or two of them may be significantly more compatible with the overall balance of the entity and its mental biases.

any selection changes the future for that entity and the future environment that entity will live in. therefore, it may also change its balance and the point it will merge at 7th d.

'catalyst' thing is a bit overblown. entities exist in a universe with other (infinite number of) entities. the universe has its own violet balance, and all situations and environments within it has its own violet balance (including their suns, 8th ray comes after 7th). so, its not only a movie that one person is watching, and all the other things being 'catalyst' to it. the person participates in a theatre play, and it also becomes an effect, an interactor for everything it interacts with. (in other words a 'catalyst').

a place, group of people, situation may attract you inevitably due to your and its violet balance situation. so, the overall vector of all these kinds of effects are the vectors the entity may make choices upon. actually it is rather hard to say 'no i wont' to a very strong resultant vector effecting on the entity's being.

the veil thickening experiment may be devised to offset this, to give 'free will' to the entities behind the veil. however, it turns out that when any kind of greater influx is prevented (from the totality of existence), any kind of society, sentient group, intelligent finites, end up acting along with any kind of effect/vector that the quarantined, isolated society/group generates. (like this planet). so, the act of heavy veiling ends up being no different than disrupting the influences and vectors from entire existence, and just handing over the free will of the entity to the quarantined furball of consciousness (ie, our society).

I don’t think its one path or the other. You have free will to choose any number of paths at any singular moment….and each choice will probably involve both polarity sets due to vagaries of life in general. And the fact that one conscious choice to do one thing does not constitute an entire life. I see Free Will not as the single choice to do..whatever…in this instance. But as a striving to continue to do what I believe serves the greater purpose for the rest of my life. Sometimes I succeed, I think. Sometimes I backslide.

I sometimes think that it’s a good thing that only 51% is required. Cause life on this ball can make it…difficult…when it comes to maintaining serenity.

Richard

'any number of paths' is not a reality.

you cannot choose to manifest in a galaxy that has archetypes that are incompatible/too different from the ones you are used to, for example. when Ra went to such places as wanderers, they found it very difficult to even function, due to differences in archetypes.

similarly, any path you can choose needs to be have a minimum compatibility with your current 'state' as a being, including your violet balance, spiritual biases, archetypal biases. mental biases may be cleared upon death, however within an incarnation they will also have effect on the state of the being and eventual routes it can take.

an entity can change itself, its violet balance, mental biases, even spiritual biases can change (last one is much harder). however, there is a limit to how much any given violet balance can change in a given set of circumstances.

As usual Unity, you are literal to a fault. I disagree with your conclusions.

Richard

When we look back to our life and the choices we made, it might sometimes appear that we could have acted differently, but the mind/our brain is quick to reconstruct what allready happened and give us the illusion of having a choice at that moment, ie "Oh, I should have/could have/would have..." But if we honestly think through each situation and how it was THEN, how we were at that point, everything that was around and the backround to that choice that was made - would we make a different choice then? After that given situation we are indeed an experience richer and can therefore make another choice in the same situation if it apperars again, if we made the wrong choice the time before that. But that is not what I call a free will. I keep thinking of one phrase - you can't go into the same river twice, which means that even if you go in the same river another time it is not the same river because of the water stream. Honestly I don't know if it even possible to have a free will in 3D, but I might be wrong...

Unity100 - I am not sure I understand what you are saying? You are way ahead of me in your thoughts I think and/or I am not following your argument because of the linguistic problems. Could you please clarify your point?

Ankh, if we look at the world from a fully deterministic point of view, which is essentially what the classical scientific world view is about. Then all causes have a single effect, and all effects have only a single cause. Slight variations will only have slight differences. And from this point of view, being in the same spot in the river since all is defined in the materialistic world view will never give any possibility for a different outcome.

However, the materialistic point of view has it's faults. It doesn't always match with observations. This means we are free to look for more appropriate models. Lets pick one as an example where the will is a more fundamental phenomenon than a mere isolated result of brain chemistry. Where it is more than something locked away in the brain.

If we assume for a moment a model where the will is fundamental above all else. This means the will itself determines how the river flows. The individual responses as far as they are automatic are indirectly willed, since they are responses to the river which is subject to the will. And the non automatic responses where our will directly influences our behavior are evidently directly willed.

I'm just trying to show that your world view determines the outcome to your question.

Ra states in the Law of One that the first distortion is free will. So essentially the second model would be true to him. I would agree.

The only way to really know which model is correct is to try them on and see which one has more functionality for you. The one that gets you the most results must be the most accurate and pragmatic. Can you influence the world using only your will? What would an Egyptian priestess say?

(11-29-2010, 07:25 PM)Ali Quadir Wrote: [ -> ]Can you influence the world using only your will? What would an Egyptian priestess say?

I looove your sense of humour!

I have to think about all this. Til I started read Ra material I thought of free will as being an illusion, the thing that is reconstructed by our ingenious brain after every given situation... So I am confused now...

(11-29-2010, 07:06 PM)Ankh Wrote: [ -> ]Unity100 - I am not sure I understand what you are saying? You are way ahead of me in your thoughts I think and/or I am not following your argument because of the linguistic problems. Could you please clarify your point?

anything in this universe (or maybe octave) has a violet balance.

2d entity. has violet balance. 3d entity, has it. every entity that is enspirited, has it. it is probable that all entities have it. but, for lower than 2d, it manifests more as a group balance.

violet balance is the true indicator of the total nature of the entity. that is also analogous with the 7d, ie, violet density being the entity in which totalities come to being.

basically you are what your violet is.

........

violet balance is more than just a significator of the entity's overall balance and its vibrational level (or native density). it is also the total nature of the entity, its manifestation in this octave.

this violet balance, may be compatible with some other violet balance (a person), or not. similarly, it may be compatible with a certain place, situation (say a planet or planetary society, or a logos) or not.

it is a matter of compatibility.

any situation, event etc will also take place in the effect area of a logos, or a society (can be considered logos when they are complexes too), or a group of people, will have a resulting violet situation in regard to the energy model in that area, zone, event, whatever.

this, may or may not be compatible with an entity's balance.

so, this affects choices. it may be not possible for you to incarnate into, say, in the 200th sun of the 5th galaxy to the right of the great attractor. or, it may not be possible for you to incarnate in a certain time period, in earth history.

some conditions can be manageable - even if your balance doesnt fit in well, you may change, or, get help from partners, family, friends or other stuff (any kind of situation that supplements your balance with various energies), and then make that situation work.

but, if there is too much discrepancy in between the balances, it becomes unworkable.

additionally balance compared to the initial thought, or, the initial state of infinite intelligence, is an important factor.

additionally, the more imbalanced the effect area of a logos is, or a society is, the more delicate the balance situation will be. it will be harder to match entities, events, groups, societies, souls together and make it work.

this reduces freedom in that zone. entities will have to follow narrower routes that would work.

oppositely, in a zone where there is much balance, it would be easier for entities to match each other, or situations, and make them work. so, movability from zone to zone, incarnation to incarnation, (if exists as a concept in that locale), increases. this increases the potential choices for entities. because, there are more workable situations.

...........

with the above approach, freedom would increase significantly as entities approach balance point towards end of 7d.

(11-29-2010, 09:00 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]...........

with the above approach, freedom would increase significantly as entities approach balance point towards end of 7d.

I think that I understand. My question is - what about here and now, in this 3D world, where there is a lot of disharmonious influences?
What I think that you mean is that in violet ray is where the true will exists? Then I am with you, brother. Or did I missunderstood you?

I might have some diffuculties to express myself in a proper way and what I mean. What I was considering was this fact I noticed. How come I felt that the Ra meterial is the right "choice" for me? How come some one elses finds Bibel or Quaran be the right choice for them? I know of couple of Wanderers and they read Ra material but don't want to do anything with it, saying it's not their path. So that single fact that some one "chooses" to take in certain information and some one else does not is what puzzling me. Still I can't find "true" words for what I mean.

But I do have a notion that Free Will might be locked up in Higher Self, and that it is not available to a person until some criterions are met. Like, you don't give children the matches to play with, and you don't give the blind man a key to an infinite well. So to have an access to a free will you need to wake up and come in contact with your Higher Self where the true Free Will exists. Until then it's only an illusion to have a free will. Which means that there is no Free Will in our consciosness, only in our Higher Self. Or....?

The definition of free will seems to differ from context to context.

at the start, as Ra tells us, infinite intelligence discovered finity, and that enabled the concept known as free will.

but then there is a free will concept that comes from the veil. the thicker the veil, the 'freer' the will, apparently, if we look at what Ra says about the veil.

i dont think however, there is a 'true' free will that exists. finites have to exist with each other, and therefore it is impossible not to interact with each other. therefore, everyone else's choices affects everyone else in an infinitely complex spectrum.

violet ray is one of the factors at play, and i think its the most important. for, no entity will be able to manifest and exist in an environment where it is not compatible. this is what we understand from Ra.

im not saying 7d, im saying, at any given point, an entity's violet energy situation ,manifestation - ie true nature - determines what it can do, and what it cannot.

(12-01-2010, 06:14 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]The definition of free will seems to differ from context to context..........

I see, brother, I think that I am oversimplifying complex concepts here while I am trying to grasp this information and match it to my earlier beliefs/assumptions. Thank you!

(11-29-2010, 02:43 PM)turtledude23 Wrote: [ -> ]I am intellectually aware of the fact that catalyst hits me all the time and that I could use it 100% efficiently, but I don't. Sometimes I forgot a situation is catalyst, sometimes I know it is but its hard to make a polarizing choice, usually I end up making the choice that makes me polarize more STO but sometimes its after alot of internal struggle. I don't see what's confusing about it to you. If I really, really, really wanted to I could use my catalyst 100% efficiently from this moment on but it comes down to my free will, how much I want to do that, how motivated I am to do that, how well I can handle pain. Are you saying its not free will because we don't have that many choices? As long as you have more than 1 choice its free will. Less choices sometimes is a good thing, it lets you explore those choices more fully.

I put a great deal in exploring the concept of free will from what you all said here and my own thoughts. I think I understand that concept now, but find the sentence "free will" different compare to what it means in LOO. However those of Quo said:

"In this search for resonance, it is to be remembered that the nature of language is that it is inherently limited. It is twice limited. First it is limited in that words must be strung together to make sentences and sentences strung together to make paragraphs and so forth. Each word has a little universe of supporting inferences which enrich the collection of words due to the context of each word being placed in its line of the flow of thought. Yet they remain finite and inherently limited.

They are limited a second time because the mind does not function according to words but rather according to concepts. Concepts are infinite. However, they can only be expressed by the human mind and gotten out into the outer manifestation of words by a process of translation which works almost like a cook rolling out the dough of a concept and taking cookie cutters to it and fashioning the flat words which bake up into that translated concept. Needless to say, a great deal is lost in translation."

Anyway, then I also put a lot of thinking in your words, Turtle, regarding to "choose/not to choose" to use catalyst at 100%. And if I would "choose" to to use my catalysts at 100% it would demand of me to not be "human". I would need to shut down almost all of my feelings/emotions as soon as I recognize them to be a catalyst and work them through. For now it is simply not possible for me to do that, not because I "choose" it but because I/my mentality/human mind cannot handle it. It is interesting thought and a great desire though...

Unity - why do you find the catalyst thing to be "overblown"?

Quote:Unity - why do you find the catalyst thing to be "overblown"?

people tend to label anything in their lives catalysts. i dont agree with that idea. this, is an interactive movie that runs with interactions more than one entity. and stuff needs to happen, and also stuff happens because there are causes for it. labeling everything as things that were arranged, needed for development of one's own self is a bit overblown and rather self centric, and maybe a bit make-believe.

(12-16-2010, 09:23 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]people tend to label anything in their lives catalysts. i dont agree with that idea. this, is an interactive movie that runs with interactions more than one entity. and stuff needs to happen, and also stuff happens because there are causes for it. labeling everything as things that were arranged, needed for development of one's own self is a bit overblown and rather self centric, and maybe a bit make-believe.

I don't know if it for development of the self, I see it rather as exploration/discovery of the self. Development is what can happen in the present mind/consciousness when you take down your high thoughts, ideals and beliefs down to Earth, your mind, and your present action. I agree with you at that point that you don't have to use the catalyst, if you don't want to, and exploration of the self can proceed after the physical death. You are here to experience what is what, and since there is no real unity connected in our present conscious mind here, we perceive the self as a center of the universe, but the universe has a lot of centra!

Anyway, I want to use the catalyst to make this journey more smooth and pleasant, since I chose pretty difficult/hard catalysts/experiences to work with pre-incarnatively. But I do agree with you and worry about it, that this approach seem kind of self centric.