Bring4th

Hey everyone,

Zenmaster and I have been talking in another thread (bilambil alien video thread... http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...on=newpost) and have been moving in to some new topics. So I wanted to start a new thread... here is a part of my most recent post.
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(12-30-2010, 04:00 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]So it's a 'good thing' that channeling or new-age thought is ignored or even laughed at, because it often is not capable of offering anything of value to a lot of the development that takes place here. If the wanderers presenting the information never bothered to bridge their own lower and higher levels of understanding (i.e. not capable of reaching down), how can they ever expect their audience to include those who are 'reaching up'?

As far as it being good or bad, I don't really know. It just is as it is, although it makes me feel bad sometimes, ha! Which of course is a quick indicator that I've something to work on there. But anyways, I agree with a part of the above in that there are very specific lessons to be learned here on Earth in a 3D body, that you just can't get any other way so quickly. (I am reminded of what Ra said about crawling in the dark with a candle and working vs. seeing everything at once and in full context, but being unable to do the work) And that's why we're here of course, to crawl and learn. I've thought about that a bit lately, actually. There are lots of threads here on the forum where we're trying to dissect and understand things like time/space, octaves, infinity and so on. While this is sort of fun to me, it's really an exercise in intellectual thought and not essential in any way to what we came here to do. It might even be distracting if taken to excess. I mean, why would we go to the trouble of being born, then going through all our years of growth and development, just to become an expert on something we were an expert on by default before we were born? Not just that, but doing so now with only part of the story (Ra material) and doing it in the opposite dimension (space/time) where our very nature as physical beings makes it really hard to understand, even if we got it right?

I say it's a far better use of time to try and understand the relationship you have with your father in law. Or to figure out just why you get angry when your spouse doesn't put her shoes to the side of the room instead of leaving them in the middle... Or do try and figure out why your first response is a lie when you are asked about being late for a meeting. Or, of course, taking on the bigger and more obvious issues you might have. (We <i>all</i> have <i>some</i> issues...) That's the real meat of what we're doing here I think- even if we get the conclusions wrong, the mere effort of trying to love more honestly or live more in harmony with yourself is a worthy goal and probably means the world to our overall goals across incarnations.

(01-01-2011, 11:06 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]I say it's a far better use of time to try and understand the relationship you have with your father in law. Or to figure out just why you get angry when your spouse doesn't put her shoes to the side of the room instead of leaving them in the middle... Or do try and figure out why your first response is a lie when you are asked about being late for a meeting. Or, of course, taking on the bigger and more obvious issues you might have. (We <i>all</i> have <i>some</i> issues...) That's the real meat of what we're doing here I think- even if we get the conclusions wrong, the mere effort of trying to love more honestly or live more in harmony with yourself is a worthy goal and probably means the world to our overall goals across incarnations.

Yea! that is pretty much it. That is where rubber meets the road. The rest all is just preparation or coaching to do this part right. This is also a great indicator of our progress... For simplicity I break down the life events in 4 major groups- Health (relationship of self to self), Relationship of self to others including plants and animals, relationship of self to abundances and resources and finally the relationship of self to work or ability to share your best with the world.

So called Devil is in the details and I say that God is also in the details. These little details of life will tell you your life plans and your blocks and your lessons. Just observer the common patterns and you have it.

Have you considered that the crawling and learning applies to intellectual thought as well? Also, as you point out, we know it already (in some manner or capacity). But the point is coming to know in a certain way, with our new perspectives - this offers more. In one sense, the recapitulation 'struggle' is the whole point. Our personality biases are like tools to become what we already were, in precisely this naive manner. Also, by going through such a exercise, the information is made that much more accessible, or bridged, to other seekers.

Actually, I think it's not possible to relate to much of the material on an intellectual level, it's mainly suited to intuitive perception (hence the terms used like I do/do not 'resonate' with such and such). But once we find it resonating or compeling we certainly have a choice to attempt to actualy digest it, to own it, and therefore perhaps have more opportunity for practical aplication. This is what 3rd density is for, after all, to mine these opportunities.

Maybe it's just me, but I've already tasted the higher-vibration resonance, felt the truth and ability, love, therein. I do not inflate the experience, or long for it, or marginalize the lower possibilities in its light. Holistically, this same effort at determining things here is what makes us what we are. This is where things are actually made the most 'real'...the 'axis' of creation.

(01-01-2011, 12:00 PM)thefool Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-01-2011, 11:06 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]That's the real meat of what we're doing here I think- even if we get the conclusions wrong, the mere effort of trying to love more honestly or live more in harmony with yourself is a worthy goal and probably means the world to our overall goals across incarnations.

These little details of life will tell you your life plans and your blocks and your lessons. Just observer the common patterns and you have it.

Yeah Eric I would have to concur with you on that. I see it as an attempt to continually refine and balance the energies that flow through our instrument (3-d body) so it's kind of like learning to play a musical instrument. Practice practice practice, and you'll reach mastery someday like yoda. Or maybe in a forthcoming incarnation.

It is work, and alot of stumbling in the darkness with a candle.

But observing the patterns! thefool, that really resonates. I often find myself in patterns of energy blockage, and I think how can I change this so that the energy flows with an open heart?

It's easy for some of us to just let the energy flow without alot of concern for how it might infringe on others, and also the opposite for some to repress their energy, and stifle it in their body. Both happen as a result of chakra blockages.

When it comes to energy blockage, the body is our tool for discernment. Just feel your body and focus on that. Does you throat feel constricted or is there a pain in your heart? What do you feel in your body, this awareness is the beginning of being able to clear the blockage and allow more energy to flow through your body.

It gets alot more complicated when you are working in relationships, because then you are dealing with not only your own blocks, but the other person as well. Perception can start to get muddy for sure!

It is all grist for the mill, and ultimately it is our gift to the Creator, this work that we do. That just felt really good to say that, because sometimes it can be discouraging when you feel like you're swimming in a murky sea, and land is not in sight, nor the ship that is supposedly sailing to the new world.

Thanks for the outlet of expression guys, and all on bring4th! I wish you all a joyful and peaceful New Year with expansive love, brighter light, and UNITY

(01-01-2011, 12:00 PM)thefool Wrote: [ -> ]So called Devil is in the details and I say that God is also in the details. These little details of life will tell you your life plans and your blocks and your lessons. Just observer the common patterns and you have it.

Well said!

zenmaster Wrote:Have you considered that the crawling and learning applies to intellectual thought as well?

No, I hadn't considered that. What type of intellectual thought were you thinking of? Certainly philosophy is an area that could be developed best within incarnation, especially as things such as the nature of good and evil are concerned. With a veil in place, there is no proof that we exist after we die (by and large). So philosophizing about the nature of murder, for example, may carry more weight in the mind. What about scientific thought? Not so sure about that one. That seems more like "look-up" information that doesn't need to be experienced first hand. (presuming such information has already been figured out by someone somewhere in the billions+ years that this octave has been around, and assuming that information is stored in an akashic type library) I guess what we might say is a determining factor for seeing what's important to think about / do within incarnation is, is there any way to learn that particular thing without doing it yourself? For, say, learning the importance of staying true to a spouse can't be fully learned just by hearing someone else talk about it. But by committing to someone yourself and learning all that you can from that experience is the only way to really "know". Science things don't seem that way to me- just like figuring out that 2 + 2 = 4 could be "looked up" (in the akashic records if nowhere else). Does that make sense... I guess to sum up my first draft opinion here, I'd wager that if the intellectual learning you propose involves someone else or some sort of catalyst then it would be worthy of attention in space/time. But things that don't require that might be less important? Also there are the densities and their various themes to consider. 3rd denisty being the arena of polarization / choice, or learning the ways of love. 4th being of love, but focused on wisdom. 5th being of wisdom, but focused on unity... 6th being unity and focused on becoming all that is. I've always sort of thought that 5th density was where intellectual thought really counts the most. Here in 3rd, as we prep for 4th, learning to love must certainly count for more than learning intellectually?

zenmaster Wrote:Also, as you point out, we know it already (in some manner or capacity). But the point is coming to know in a certain way, with our new perspectives - this offers more. In one sense, the recapitulation 'struggle' is the whole point. Our personality biases are like tools to become what we already were, in precisely this naive manner. Also, by going through such a exercise, the information is made that much more accessible, or bridged, to other seekers.

Great point. Our personalities are so varied... there is no one else exactly like us in creation. Thus, how we experience something is unique. I can well imagine that as we pass from life to life to life, we choose to do the same things over and over again, just to distill that sort of uniqueness from whatever that experience we're repeating is. Eventually we may decide to stop... "I'm totally done with this whole drowning on a ship at sea thing- never again!"

zenmaster Wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I've already tasted the higher-vibration resonance, felt the truth and ability, love, therein. I do not inflate the experience, or long for it, or marginalize the lower possibilities in its light. Holistically, this same effort at determining things here is what makes us what we are. This is where things are actually made the most 'real'...the 'axis' of creation.

Yes.. and that axis of creation is that "now" moment, which of course is all that exists and ever will. We are what we think about, I agree. To bring the conversation full circle, the popular debunker Michael Shermer once said: "I am my brain". Humorous to me, because he intended it as a statement of absolute materialism, but if you read in to the statement slightly differently he is saying the same as we're discussing now.

Shemaya Wrote:When it comes to energy blockage, the body is our tool for discernment. Just feel your body and focus on that. Does you throat feel constricted or is there a pain in your heart? What do you feel in your body, this awareness is the beginning of being able to clear the blockage and allow more energy to flow through your body.

Great tip. I hope I can remember to use it- usually when I run in to situations where I do experience physical distortions like that I am too emotionally engrossed in whatever situation it is that I'm in to stop and think of anything else. I have the same problem using the 'where is the love in this moment?' tip. Maybe some day I'll be zen enough to use this tools well.

(01-02-2011, 12:13 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]No, I hadn't considered that. What type of intellectual thought were you thinking of?

Any thinking-related process of evaluation that's used to create new experience.

(01-02-2011, 12:13 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]What about scientific thought? Not so sure about that one. That seems more like "look-up" information that doesn't need to be experienced first hand.
(presuming such information has already been figured out by someone somewhere in the billions+ years that this octave has been around, and assuming that information is stored in an akashic type library)

I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by "need"?

(01-02-2011, 12:13 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]I guess what we might say is a determining factor for seeing what's important to think about / do within incarnation is, is there any way to learn that particular thing without doing it yourself? For, say, learning the importance of staying true to a spouse can't be fully learned just by hearing someone else talk about it. But by committing to someone yourself and learning all that you can from that experience is the only way to really "know". Science things don't seem that way to me- just like figuring out that 2 + 2 = 4 could be "looked up" (in the akashic records if nowhere else). Does that make sense...

I belive I know where you're coming from, but, believe it or not, ethical principles and scientific principals are of the same nature. It's the logos that determines that you will eventually learn the value of "being true" or the principles of math.

(01-02-2011, 12:13 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]I guess to sum up my first draft opinion here, I'd wager that if the intellectual learning you propose involves someone else or some sort of catalyst then it would be worthy of attention in space/time. But things that don't require that might be less important?

I'd place the evaluation of worth of any pursuit on the individual.. it's really a fool-proof system.

(01-02-2011, 12:13 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]Also there are the densities and their various themes to consider. 3rd denisty being the arena of polarization / choice, or learning the ways of love. 4th being of love, but focused on wisdom. 5th being of wisdom, but focused on unity... 6th being unity and focused on becoming all that is. I've always sort of thought that 5th density was where intellectual thought really counts the most. Here in 3rd, as we prep for 4th, learning to love must certainly count for more than learning intellectually?

What do you believe "love" truly is?

(01-02-2011, 12:13 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]Great tip. I hope I can remember to use it- usually when I run in to situations where I do experience physical distortions like that I am too emotionally engrossed in whatever situation it is that I'm in to stop and think of anything else. I have the same problem using the 'where is the love in this moment?' tip. Maybe some day I'll be zen enough to use this tools well.

I am the same way but the key is to understand that many times things would take time as we work thru the issue(s) and potentially karmic reasons behind those debilitating distortions. I used to expect instant results like in t/s but in s/t things are not as easy

I have learned to see and celebrate the small incremental improvements while working with issue(s). While remaining open to the quantum leap at the same time. One day

In the end there is only ONE issue in different forms. Our perception of separation. I believe that our perception of the separation is directly proportional to the size of our EGO . And the size of our ego is directly proportional to our perceived issues in this 3D reality. One way to measure this is to see how defensive do you feel in a certain situation? More defensiveness about something more issues in that area. Our defensiveness in certain situation can be more, due to past experiences that left us scarred when we were not prepared for those similar situations and could not accept the situation and our conditions. That leaves a karmic imprint and we blink almost unconsciously when we encounter the same situation the next time. The key is to remain conscious and let the unconscious surface itself without resistance. That reduces the impact of it and slowly wipes the condition away, releasing the imprint. The problem persists when we resist the unconscious impulse and fear and block it. Then it surfaces in many different forms and often debilitating...

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(01-02-2011, 12:13 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]So philosophizing about the nature of murder, for example, may carry more weight in the mind. What about scientific thought? Not so sure about that one. That seems more like "look-up" information that doesn't need to be experienced first hand. (presuming such information has already been figured out by someone somewhere in the billions+ years that this octave has been around, and assuming that information is stored in an akashic type library) I guess what we might say is a determining factor for seeing what's important to think about / do within incarnation is, is there any way to learn that particular thing without doing it yourself? For, say, learning the importance of staying true to a spouse can't be fully learned just by hearing someone else talk about it. But by committing to someone yourself and learning all that you can from that experience is the only way to really "know".

Well !!! There is a difference between the 'Philosophy' and 'Philosophy'. The philosophy of the east does not really translate into the 'science of reason/mind' . In Indian system it is called 'Darshan' means 'seeing' and Zen comes from the root 'Dhyan' means Meditating. So it is not about pure mental aerobics but really absorbing it in your being by digesting it. So you can read a book just remember all the facts but get nothin or you could just chew one line at a time and make it your own. Just like we do with Law of One, I hope

This is good discussion to have but I have to run now and will complete my thoughts later, maybe once someone has responded. have to run now.

I think that various people came here and entertained their current incarnations for various reasons. There may be some who have dedicated this lifetime to intellectual pursuit in order to balance love with wisdom. There may be some who are at levels of understanding where what seems trivial to you might actually be important to their learning. Of course, I also believe that people can easily be distracted by the shiny but ultimately useless bits of data hanging out there in the grid. It's easy to be wrapped up in getting to the top of the hill of truth, when the truth may have been back on the ground where you started. But I'm not going to try and decide which is which for each person I meet, unless they happen to ask for my advice. I know I can learn something from each person, regardless of whether they are holding to whatever course they set for themselves, and I try to simply let our energies mingle and benefit one another, taking what benefits, leaving the rest.

For me it is really simple. If you have something in your head and you are not able to put it in the practice, then it is not of much use. It has not become a part of you and you will lose it along with other things once you leave this incarnation. Once you have practiced something by living it and experiencing it then it becomes part of your energy imprint and becomes you. Then it is yours... All the theories are good and helpful for understanding but if we can not walk the talk it is not doing us any good...

Example: it is good to talk about swimming and maybe learn some trick before jumping int he water but if you can not swim !!! And once you know how to swim by doing it then you can not really forget it...

(01-02-2011, 04:06 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by "need"?

What I mean is that it seems to me there are certain things that you can never fully learn by hearing about it from someone else, reading about it, or otherwise having it explained. The measure twice cut once rule that woodworkers swear by is a good example of this. You are told, always measure twice, so that you only have to cut the wood once. Great advice right? But how many new wood workers always, from the very start to the very end of their careers, measure twice? They learn by messing up, and then they "know" the measure twice. That's a rough example that could be argued down, but I think you get my meaning. But it seems that there are other things that aren't like that, such as mathematics. You can learn it mentally without having to physically do anything. All you need to do is think, which is a time/space thing. Thus it's something that I think you don't need to be alive in a physical vehicle on a planet to do. (although the application of it is very beneficial of course).

(01-02-2011, 04:06 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]What do you believe "love" truly is?

What a huge question In this particular case though, as regards densities, I am meaning the polarizing love that we may find for other selves or for our-selves. We could gather that that fundamental STO vs. STS choice, the choice of how to love that third density is for is a priority for us at this time on Earth. More so I would wager, than intellectual thought development.

L&L, E

(01-03-2011, 03:57 PM)thefool Wrote: [ -> ]Once you have practiced something by living it and experiencing it then it becomes part of your energy imprint and becomes you. Then it is yours... All the theories are good and helpful for understanding but if we can not walk the talk it is not doing us any good...

You got it. What you are describing is a principle of nature - a template for evolution from the logos. That's why the experience of mind archetype is depicted or epitomized by the authority or effectual figure.

The function of intuition is to inform intelligence. However, 1) intuition alone does not create experience - it merely perceives information with zero integration into one's experience (owning it) without evaluation and 2) your ability to intuit depends on prior experience, like a feedback loop spiraling upwards.

"The function of intuition is to inform intelligence. In your illusion the unbridled predominance of intuition will tend to keep an entity from the greater polarizations due to the vagaries of intuitive perception."

Polarization is an individuation process. It's becoming your own accepted source of information, rather than the yellow-ray, status-quo group-mind of 3D. It's moving up the subdensities - which entails creating an experiential bias through rational evaluation (choosing). "Rational" here purely in the Jungian sense of a judgment (not necessarily intellect-based) being made. The evaluation is either feeling (yin) based or thinking (yang) based. And of course some mixture of both.

"As you may see, these two types of brain structure need to be balanced in order that the net sum of experiential catalyst will be polarization and illumination, for without the acceptance by the rational mind of the worth of the intuitive faculty the creative aspects which aid in illumination will be stifled."

So you don't have to be logical to polarize, but you must eventually decide what you like and what you don't like, for example. Or as Ra said learn the mind, then learn the body. The particular biases that they offer are your program of study. It really doesn't matter what you choose to think or feel, specifically - because you are your own guide. You have an instruction manual in the form of what you feel during honesty.

When 3D yellow-ray wanes, those without work accomplished in determining their own natures, will be 'caught with their pants down'. Because there will be little of that group mind (sustained by yellow ray) to fall back on. They will literally begin feeling more and more 'lost' and maybe 'alone'.

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(01-03-2011, 10:27 PM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-02-2011, 04:06 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by "need"?

What I mean is that it seems to me there are certain things that you can never fully learn by hearing about it from someone else, reading about it, or otherwise having it explained. The measure twice cut once rule that woodworkers swear by is a good example of this. You are told, always measure twice, so that you only have to cut the wood once. Great advice right? But how many new wood workers always, from the very start to the very end of their careers, measure twice? They learn by messing up, and then they "know" the measure twice. That's a rough example that could be argued down, but I think you get my meaning. But it seems that there are other things that aren't like that, such as mathematics. You can learn it mentally without having to physically do anything. All you need to do is think, which is a time/space thing. Thus it's something that I think you don't need to be alive in a physical vehicle on a planet to do. (although the application of it is very beneficial of course).

(01-02-2011, 04:06 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]What do you believe "love" truly is?

What a huge question In this particular case though, as regards densities, I am meaning the polarizing love that we may find for other selves or for our-selves. We could gather that that fundamental STO vs. STS choice, the choice of how to love that third density is for is a priority for us at this time on Earth. More so I would wager, than intellectual thought development.

There is a basic misunderstanding here. Intellectual thought is not an "end". It is a means to evaluate what is "true to oneself". Also, it's not an either-or thing with learning how to love, as you seem to emphasize. In fact, you can't learn anything at all, without evaluating using either left or right side of brain - the so-called "heart" or "head".

Such a wonderful post, I love it

Notice that Ra never answered a question when it appeared that someone may take his view as absolute truth. They insisted that they are not here to offer proof, at the same time that they insisted that they are teaching the truth as they know it.

We are not Ra. We are young and inexperienced. There is no way for us to be like Ra within the few years that we have left, and the possible experiences that we can go through. Some experiences may be outside our grasp, no matter what we do.

I am glad that you have brought this subject up for discussion.

Yes, we can go to the beach and enjoy the sun and beauty of nature
At the end of the day, we have to go back home.
That's where we are our best
and where we can give, "or receive", more

(01-01-2011, 11:06 AM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]Hey everyone,

Zenmaster and I have been talking in another thread (bilambil alien video thread... http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...on=newpost) and have been moving in to some new topics. So I wanted to start a new thread... here is a part of my most recent post.
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(12-30-2010, 04:00 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]So it's a 'good thing' that channeling or new-age thought is ignored or even laughed at, because it often is not capable of offering anything of value to a lot of the development that takes place here. If the wanderers presenting the information never bothered to bridge their own lower and higher levels of understanding (i.e. not capable of reaching down), how can they ever expect their audience to include those who are 'reaching up'?

As far as it being good or bad, I don't really know. It just is as it is, although it makes me feel bad sometimes, ha! Which of course is a quick indicator that I've something to work on there. But anyways, I agree with a part of the above in that there are very specific lessons to be learned here on Earth in a 3D body, that you just can't get any other way so quickly. (I am reminded of what Ra said about crawling in the dark with a candle and working vs. seeing everything at once and in full context, but being unable to do the work) And that's why we're here of course, to crawl and learn. I've thought about that a bit lately, actually. There are lots of threads here on the forum where we're trying to dissect and understand things like time/space, octaves, infinity and so on. While this is sort of fun to me, it's really an exercise in intellectual thought and not essential in any way to what we came here to do. It might even be distracting if taken to excess. I mean, why would we go to the trouble of being born, then going through all our years of growth and development, just to become an expert on something we were an expert on by default before we were born? Not just that, but doing so now with only part of the story (Ra material) and doing it in the opposite dimension (space/time) where our very nature as physical beings makes it really hard to understand, even if we got it right?

I say it's a far better use of time to try and understand the relationship you have with your father in law. Or to figure out just why you get angry when your spouse doesn't put her shoes to the side of the room instead of leaving them in the middle... Or do try and figure out why your first response is a lie when you are asked about being late for a meeting. Or, of course, taking on the bigger and more obvious issues you might have. (We <i>all</i> have <i>some</i> issues...) That's the real meat of what we're doing here I think- even if we get the conclusions wrong, the mere effort of trying to love more honestly or live more in harmony with yourself is a worthy goal and probably means the world to our overall goals across incarnations.

(01-03-2011, 10:37 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]There is a basic misunderstanding here. Intellectual thought is not an "end". It is a means to evaluate what is "true to oneself". Also, it's not an either-or thing with learning how to love, as you seem to emphasize. In fact, you can't learn anything at all, without evaluating using either left or right side of brain - the so-called "heart" or "head".

I may misunderstand, yes. Perhaps more clarification is needed. Instead, or in addition, we may not fully be understanding each other. We agree that intellectual thought is not an end- my point is that many people think that it is in our culture.. (science, mathematics, etc.) Whereas a more efficient use of our time incarnate would be focusing on interpersonal relationships (i.e. making "the choice"). I don't mean to paint it as black and white, of course there some overlap.

As for sides of the brain (left/right or heart/head), we agree.

(01-05-2011, 12:24 PM)Eric Wrote: [ -> ]Whereas a more efficient use of our time incarnate would be focusing on interpersonal relationships (i.e. making "the choice").

People make great mirrors, yes. I think it was Tony Robbins that said the purpose for relationships was to "magnify emotions" (i.e. put catalyst in your face). Another friend said to me bluntly "relationships are created and maintained for the satisfaction of complementary neurotic structures. When satisfaction is not forthcoming, the relationship is terminated."

But be aware that there are specific ethical themes or principles (of the logos) that we learn about ourselves through the relationships. There are a million types of possible relationships, all potentially offering some growth opportunity (shedding light on an aspect of the logos). If we find that we are compelled to address something particular in our relationships - something strangely meaningful and important, then we are necessarily *new at it* (as you can imagine, in that "newbe" role, we are hardly in a position to judge the catalyst for others) and it's a specific learning opportunity. Therefore, I would never decide for another what is more efficient catalyst - it's merely projection from role identification. What's efficient is always that which is compelling to a person when an honest assessment is made.

Thank you zenmaster. I won't dispute wisdom when I hear it In the larger view your statement is correct. I still feel what I said has some merit though. Perhaps the best way to say it is; in the larger sense I agree, and in the smaller sense I somewhat disagree.

Great dialog.

This might be very relevant as I just stumbled upon it-

Quote:This work was intended to be done inside the veil. You were not at all supposed to know the true value or meaning of that which occurs to you. Your area of responsibility, shall we say, is in choosing how you shall respond to that which the moment offers you. And it is not expected that you will somehow pierce the veil and become fully aware of a more real part of yourself thereby, logically and in a linear manner choosing the right thing to do.

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._1023.aspx

enjoy...