Bring4th

As I'm reading through the fourth book in this first full rereading of the entire series since, oh, 2001 maybe, one of the things that striking me as both an important pillar of the adept's path and something with which I have problems is the centrality of honesty. It appears that a lot of what strengthens the potential of a given act is the degree to which it is attempted with honesty. I imagine this indicates not merely honesty in interactions with others but especially with oneself.

In the past I have had difficulty with this. One reason for this, I suppose, is that the dishonesty with oneself is almost always in the service of protection; in other words, you are hiding something from yourself to prevent pain.

Another reason is a lack of will or concentration. When thoughts flit through the mind, especially thoughts contrary to where you are attempting to focus your energy, it can be a struggle to determine what the proper response is. On the one hand, you don't want to repress these thoughts, and I feel like I've made strides in having patience with my own impatience, for lack of a better expression. On the other hand, it doesn't seem that the process Ra describes of having those thoughts and tendencies which are no longer needed simply "fall away" suddenly; in other words, the falling away is gradual and not effected in some immediate sense.

This frustration with my own ability to commit to a path is positively self-defeating, because the less I keep my commitments to myself the more I reinforce either a loss of faith in myself or erect a wall of dishonesty with self to not have to experience this dejection.

But if this pattern is to be turned around, if I am to commit my energy in a way that breaks the cycle, and sort of hold on for dear life to a discipline, how am I to do so without in some sense introducing regimentation and control over myself at least on some level? How do I discipline the self with love?

I don't expect complete answers to these issues, or even answers at all. Just thought maybe somebody has feedback that could help. It doesn't hurt to put it out there.

I understand that the most important resource here is patience and compassion for self; I guess maybe the real conundrum here for me is that I'm having trouble considering compassion and patience in the full constellation of aspects that apply here. Maybe one of you have a thought that could inspire the consideration of a quality I had not imagined yet.

Thank you.

Okay, I'll bite.

Here's a thought or two.


Identifying your relationship to pain and discomfort as conditioners of the quality of honest self disclosure is a very important observation, in my experience. This can be, oh, so important when this is all happening unconsciously. Ergo, it's very important, as you probably already know, to learn to identify these things by inference--by identifying their subtle, underwater signatures--so that they can eventually be fished out and assuaged through open identification and acceptance. For me, oftentimes they do simply fall away by that point, by the way.

Here's my take on the situation in general: I am motivated most strongly by my desire to reconnect with my "full self" (as I feel it intuitively) and this is also what guides me. So directed, I step into all kinds of muck--mainly internal, these days--but I persevere owing to the intensity of my desire to reach my goal.

In other words, whenever I run into something self-defeating (or otherwise defeating), I rely upon the strength and focus of my will to reach my goal to move me through it.

This isn't good advice for everyone, by any means, but it's the pattern I've noted in my own behavior.

For me, honesty and the will to re-join my "full self" are directly related. This is, obviously, akin to your observation that lack of will can be a cause for a blurring of honesty. The will has to be guided by a goal the way a navigator uses the stars or objects on the horizon, right? What's yours focused upon?

(01-30-2011, 01:51 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]Ergo, it's very important, as you probably already know, to learn to identify these things by inference--by identifying their subtle, underwater signatures--so that they can eventually be fished out and assuaged through open identification and acceptance. For me, oftentimes they do simply fall away by that point, by the way.

Yes, I know what you mean. This takes time, so I appreciate the reassurance. It means a lot to me. Working on this level of imprecision can be really difficult for me; I want clarity, and there is precious little at this point in the process. I started this thread, not to get specific strategies, but really to get this kind of confirmation of the experience, just to feel like I'm not totally lost. So thank you.

(01-30-2011, 01:51 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]Here's my take on the situation in general: I am motivated most strongly by my desire to reconnect with my "full self" (as I feel it intuitively) and this is also what guides me. So directed, I step into all kinds of muck--mainly internal, these days--but I persevere owing to the intensity of my desire to reach my goal.

In other words, whenever I run into something self-defeating (or otherwise defeating), I rely upon the strength and focus of my will to reach my goal to move me through it.

Yes; what this relies on as a precondition is a faith in the existence of the goal one seeks. This has been a stumbling block for me. If one loses faith that there is a real self that either is reachable or even there at all, one can prefer to seek comfort in more tangible or accessible endeavors. I am trying to balance this. Just trying to be open about where I'm at and where I've been. Again, thanks for sharing this - it means a lot.

(01-30-2011, 01:51 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]For me, honesty and the will to re-join my "full self" are directly related. This is, obviously, akin to your observation that lack of will can be a cause for a blurring of honesty. The will has to be guided by a goal the way a navigator uses the stars or objects on the horizon, right? What's yours focused upon?

Essentially the same thing. I want to have a deeper connection. But there is no certainty in the character of this connection. To be honest, I'm afraid of what achieving this connection will demand of me, of the commitments I've made in my waking life, of how it will change who I think I am.

These fears are something that, on the one hand, I cannot allow to hold me back, since I can't be happy and fully committed to a sleeping, materialistic life. On the other hand, I can't simply ignore them, right? That's the issue: going about the balancing in a manner that doesn't overemphasize the negative parts without ignoring them, either.

One more datum to consider: I've just restarted a morning meditation regimen. I'm quite early on this path. So I know nothing that will be offered to me in this thread will substitute for what is in store for me. As I said earlier, it's just nice to know that others have a similar experience. I'm a perfectionist and the fear of doing this "the wrong way" is a big distortion I deal with. Just getting back into meditating and not worrying about whether I'm wasting my time or not was a big step for me.

It's also nice to just write about this stuff. Writing for me is an outlet of tremendous importance. So thanks for reading it.

(01-30-2011, 01:25 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]I imagine this indicates not merely honesty in interactions with others but especially with oneself.

the hardest and most important.

Quote:In the past I have had difficulty with this. One reason for this, I suppose, is that the dishonesty with oneself is almost always in the service of protection; in other words, you are hiding something from yourself to prevent pain.

quite. suppression of undesirable or uncomfortable concepts, memories, situations, necessities or projection of them into peripheral things to justify and rationalize them to be able to keep doing/maintaining them and so on.

honesty with self is hard.

Quote:Another reason is a lack of will or concentration. When thoughts flit through the mind, especially thoughts contrary to where you are attempting to focus your energy, it can be a struggle to determine what the proper response is. On the one hand, you don't want to repress these thoughts, and I feel like I've made strides in having patience with my own impatience, for lack of a better expression. On the other hand, it doesn't seem that the process Ra describes of having those thoughts and tendencies which are no longer needed simply "fall away" suddenly; in other words, the falling away is gradual and not effected in some immediate sense.

indeed so.

the 'falling away' phenomenon is more or less the form in situations where you live in some isolation with people that are of high vibrations or harmonious (or in total isolation).

but in cities or in places where there are people and a lot of thoughts, thought-forms, feelings and emotions flying about in time/space, the falling away phenomenon doesnt work that easy. you need to be as pure as a flying feather for things not to get stuck to you in such a situation. even if you are, there will be times you will accumulate wear&tear or get into energetic/emotional situations (life, work, mass transportation etc) in which you will be vulnerable to stuff sticking to you.

moreover, and more importantly, if the entity is working with rays higher than green, there will be other problems - if the entity is fully open in green chakra, s/he will be totally empathetic to others' thoughts and feelings, and if s/he doesnt have the sufficient blue to discern in between them, s/he may quite often think that those thoughts, feelings are his or her own thoughts and feelings, even if they may belong to other entities.

this is probably why the main theme of 5d and blue ray, is focus, intensification in general. (ra tells us as such - even told that the negative and positive work looks similar from outside, tho different in inside).

so basically anyone trying to work on higher chakras in a city environment (or a crowded one etc), may have to start learning some focus and intensification and also blue ray communication/wisdom in order to be able to discern what emotions/thoughts are his/her own, and what are not.

also, honesty with self comes into play in that regard - it is also similar work regarding blue ray.

Quote:But if this pattern is to be turned around, if I am to commit my energy in a way that breaks the cycle, and sort of hold on for dear life to a discipline, how am I to do so without in some sense introducing regimentation and control over myself at least on some level? How do I discipline the self with love?

you dont discipline the self with love. discipline is not something like a spartan discipline or military concept. it is more a focus on what is coming from your spirit. the driving force should be spirit, and the focus be its focus.

the honesty of self is important to be able to learn to discern one's own inner spiritual desires and direction from the noise flying about from other people. other people's desires and directions, are other people's desires and directions. its theirs to follow, and noone else can follow it for them. roads may cross, and continue together for a long time, and may even continue from start to end altogether, but still, there will be more than one road.

discipline of self is not a fascist thing.

Quote:I understand that the most important resource here is patience and compassion for self; I guess maybe the real conundrum here for me is that I'm having trouble considering compassion and patience in the full constellation of aspects that apply here.

compassion is related to green ray and the 4th chakra work. you wont be walking the above chakras with compassion or patience. you need to raise those vibrations and upgrade them to their higher ones. blue after green, indigo after blue.

(01-30-2011, 02:25 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-30-2011, 01:51 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]Here's my take on the situation in general: I am motivated most strongly by my desire to reconnect with my "full self" (as I feel it intuitively) and this is also what guides me. So directed, I step into all kinds of muck--mainly internal, these days--but I persevere owing to the intensity of my desire to reach my goal.

In other words, whenever I run into something self-defeating (or otherwise defeating), I rely upon the strength and focus of my will to reach my goal to move me through it.

Yes; what this relies on as a precondition is a faith in the existence of the goal one seeks. This has been a stumbling block for me. If one loses faith that there is a real self that either is reachable or even there at all, one can prefer to seek comfort in more tangible or accessible endeavors. I am trying to balance this. Just trying to be open about where I'm at and where I've been. Again, thanks for sharing this - it means a lot.

This is a key point, indeed. Such a faith cannot be overvalued. It's a very important thing to cultivate, in my estimation.

(01-30-2011, 02:25 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, I'm afraid of what achieving this connection will demand of me, of the commitments I've made in my waking life, of how it will change who I think I am.

This has been a significant stumbling block for me as well, particularly the loss of identity part (implied for me in your "who I think I am" phrase).



Here's something which relates to discipline...not to mention loss (or transmutation) of identity.

Quote:74.11 Questioner: What I am trying to get at is how these disciplines affect the energy centers and the power of the white magician. Will you tell me how that works?

Ra: I am Ra. The heart of the discipline of the personality is threefold. One, know your self. Two, accept your self. Three, become the Creator.

The third step is that step which, when accomplished, renders one the most humble servant of all, transparent in personality and completely able to know and accept other-selves. In relation to the pursuit of the magical working the continuing discipline of the personality involves the adept in knowing its self, accepting its self, and thus clearing the path towards the great indigo gateway to the Creator. To become the Creator is to become all that there is. There is, then, no personality in the sense with which the adept begins its learn/teaching. As the consciousness of the indigo ray becomes more crystalline, more work may be done; more may be expressed from intelligent infinity.

This sort of sounds like what you're trying to discuss. You see, it has a happy ending!

Maybe I'll see you there in a few more lifetimes?

(01-30-2011, 06:40 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]This is a key point, indeed. Such a faith cannot be overvalued. It's a very important thing to cultivate, in my estimation.

Yup. This is where I'm spending much time lately. It appears to be more a matter of releasing fears, though, than necessarily building faith. Sort of like the "removing barriers to love" Rumi / ACIM quote.

(01-30-2011, 06:40 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]This has been a significant stumbling block for me as well, particularly the loss of identity part (implied for me in your "who I think I am" phrase).

Right. I've worked on this more than anything else, probably, over the last fifteen years. I think I've come to terms with it somewhat, though the "dissolving the ego" exercise can seem less daunting sometimes than the "finding the true self" part. And it can get into semantics and wordplay if you over-intellectualize it, as I'm likely to do.

You mention discipline of the personality. What are your thoughts on the distinction Ra makes between direction or discipline and control? Obviously, a lot of this is happening on the mental level, so we're dealing here with thoughts - stray, errant thoughts are my constant, ahem, companions. I've been working with loving and accepting thoughts, even those I find distasteful, but I struggle with how to respond to them in a way that doesn't attempt to "overcome" them, know what I mean? When I'm dead honest with myself, I think my worse enemies are my expectations - my standards for judging whether or not my progress is acceptable. If I didn't have these expectations or standards, and just stayed the course - which is my current practice - I feel I'd be much better off. I'd also not be Jeremy.

Just looking for hints here - I know I still have to do the heavy lifting! Thanks.

(01-30-2011, 06:40 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-30-2011, 02:25 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, I'm afraid of what achieving this connection will demand of me, of the commitments I've made in my waking life, of how it will change who I think I am.

This has been a significant stumbling block for me as well, particularly the loss of identity part (implied for me in your "who I think I am" phrase).

I can relate to that, but lately when connecting to some kind of deep level of the self while accepting all kinds of "crazy" thoughts and visions that occur, and most of all the strong will to release the control of the self (from the self) it feels that "loss of identity" is an illusion. Thus conscious will of connecting to the "deeper" self, or higher self, or bigger self, or whatever word you wish, results at least for me, in feeling of knowing the self better than before. It feels like a dear old friend that I "forgot", suddenly so familiar, that when emerged it feels more geniune than ever.

I wanted to write my thoughts down before I read the other posts, so if I find something after I post this I'll edit this one or post another time

First off, regardless of what discipline you're trying to master or new pattern you're trying to manifest, I would say knowing fully why you're doing it is a good pursuit. Ask yourself and be willing to bluntly honestly answer the question, "Why do I want this?". Know very well the intended/desired outcome of it, identify possible negative and positive externalities, identify things you'll want to research if applicable, identify things you'll need or things that will make your quest easier... Etc.

Quote:When thoughts flit through the mind, especially thoughts contrary to where you are attempting to focus your energy, it can be a struggle to determine what the proper response is.

I would suggest that after having done what I suggested to do earlier in this post, it will be a little bit easier to let these thoughts simply slide away. It's like when you first start meditating and you don't want to attach any feeling or give any attention to thoughts that are in your head - you just let them fall away because they're not useful at that point in time. So here will you know that those are thoughts that you simply don't want and that offer you no advantage. Be gentle with yourself!

Also, about the Ra part about thoughts falling away: I think that taking charge of letting them go rather than waiting for them to stop coming to you will help you get to your destination faster. Know that those thoughts aren't thoughts you don't wish to think any more and every time they come up remember to let them dissipate easily and without second thought.

Quote:This frustration with my own ability to commit to a path is positively self-defeating, because the less I keep my commitments to myself the more I reinforce either a loss of faith in myself or erect a wall of dishonesty with self to not have to experience this dejection.

It sounds to me (and I may be wrong so treat this accordingly ) like you have a tendency to be hard on yourself about these things. If I were attempting to do something similar to what you're doing (creating new patterns/habits/etc), I wouldn't let my slip-ups affect me terribly. In fact, I bet that as time goes on you're getting better and better at what you're doing. You may notice that each of your slip-ups is less significant than the last, that is, you're succeeding in letting your old ways go and in creating your new desired ways! Go easy on yourself

Quote:But if this pattern is to be turned around, if I am to commit my energy in a way that breaks the cycle, and sort of hold on for dear life to a discipline, how am I to do so without in some sense introducing regimentation and control over myself at least on some level? How do I discipline the self with love?

It seems to me that you're trying to manifest this desired outcome as quickly as possible. I'd like to suggest to you that being your own cheerleader might be a good avenue to venture down. Praise yourself only, don't judge or criticize yourself. And if you happen to fall, pick yourself up lovingly and dust yourself off (forgive yourself too! ), then keep going knowing that you've made much progress already and your momentary lapses in will have only made you stronger. Focus on the goal and learn from the past - since the past is over and there's no use dwelling on it, you may as well learn from it and move on

Peace and Love :idea:

I wholeheartedly agree with Josh. Be easy on yourself. I remember trying so hard to "meditate," which meant "having no thought at all," that I was severely disappointed with me when I couldn't "banish" them. Finally, I just decided to do the best I could, and that's when real progress happened. I learned that "trying to meditate" counts as meditation, too. My attitude improved just from trying, and the next time I didn't have to try so hard.

In fact, "progress" is a much better term than "discipline." Set your intention to have progress rather than improved discipline. Accept yourself right now, then allow the improvements.

I had a major self-improvement task one time years ago, and came up with this: I would go over it in bed as I waited for sleep and again in the morning after I woke. That's all. It took months, but the turnaround has stuck for about two decades now. For me it was huge, too. I never want to be the awful person I was before.

Lee

(01-30-2011, 07:46 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]You mention discipline of the personality. What are your thoughts on the distinction Ra makes between direction or discipline and control? Obviously, a lot of this is happening on the mental level, so we're dealing here with thoughts - stray, errant thoughts are my constant, ahem, companions. I've been working with loving and accepting thoughts, even those I find distasteful, but I struggle with how to respond to them in a way that doesn't attempt to "overcome" them, know what I mean? When I'm dead honest with myself, I think my worse enemies are my expectations - my standards for judging whether or not my progress is acceptable. If I didn't have these expectations or standards, and just stayed the course - which is my current practice - I feel I'd be much better off. I'd also not be Jeremy.

I don't know how helpful this is, but my take on all that sort of thing is that (a) the thoughts aren't a big deal, it's the chain of other associated stuff that creates the dramatic tension [such as fears, genetic impulses and on and on] and (b) our task--should we choose to accept--is to simply become transparent to these things.

Does this mean that we should not have feelings or associated thoughts? No, we become transparent to those as well. Does it mean we then take no action (because transparent people can't be expected to do much work)? No, we become transparent to the whole chain of karmic impulse and action.

So, what does "transparent" mean exactly in this context?

Good question. What do you think?







Huh. Look what I just found above.




So, what does "transparent" mean exactly in this context?

Good question. What do you think?

Over time I’ve found that I've needed ever more refined ways of dealing with myself. Once upon a time self control was enough to move me in the right direction, but at some point what I understood about control became too forceful and rigid. I needed either a very slight adjustment of how I understood the idea of control or else a new concept that more accurately helped me understand what I needed to do.

Something that I’ve tried to say once before was that sometimes the best thing to do is not ask for help here, or from any person but to ask from help for whatever it is that it makes sense for you to ask it from. How well can I explain how to be in control without being so much in control? Not very well I’m sure. Yet as you sit there and look at yourself you can simply say something to the effect of, “Well I don’t get it, something isn’t quite right about my approach, can you show me what I’m doing wrong?” And right then and there you might be shown the ever so slight adjustment that you need.

(01-30-2011, 08:00 PM)Ankh Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-30-2011, 06:40 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-30-2011, 02:25 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, I'm afraid of what achieving this connection will demand of me, of the commitments I've made in my waking life, of how it will change who I think I am.

This has been a significant stumbling block for me as well, particularly the loss of identity part (implied for me in your "who I think I am" phrase).

I can relate to that, but lately when connecting to some kind of deep level of the self while accepting all kinds of "crazy" thoughts and visions that occur, and most of all the strong will to release the control of the self (from the self) it feels that "loss of identity" is an illusion.

I think so, too. Maybe "change of identity" is closer to what happens than "loss of identity"? You gain some, you lose some -- gradually. Once when I turned away because of fear of loss of identity, I was given a vision of myself merging with another being. There was no loss, only gain.

Then again, I'm probably too busy enjoying the flowers along the side of the road to be really anxious to get the process sped up. My feeling is that if it takes a lot of discipline, then there's some lack of honesty in the path. If the passion to move quicker is there, then the work requires less discipline, or rather, the discipline is a joy, a choice, and not controlling.

(01-31-2011, 10:05 PM)AppleSeed Wrote: [ -> ]My feeling is that if it takes a lot of discipline, then there's some lack of honesty in the path.

That's an intriguing thought.

(01-31-2011, 10:05 PM)AppleSeed Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe "change of identity" is closer to what happens than "loss of identity"? You gain some, you lose some -- gradually. Once when I turned away because of fear of loss of identity, I was given a vision of myself merging with another being. There was no loss, only gain.

Then again, I'm probably too busy enjoying the flowers along the side of the road to be really anxious to get the process sped up. My feeling is that if it takes a lot of discipline, then there's some lack of honesty in the path. If the passion to move quicker is there, then the work requires less discipline, or rather, the discipline is a joy, a choice, and not controlling.

Identity
From my viewpoint it's the feeling of loss of identity that can be such an obstacle. It's something I have to work with a lot. I try to massage it and warm it up and encourage it to be more pliable. There's a whole lot there I'm unconsciously unwilling to relinquish.


Discipline
This word seems to scare a lot of people. As a musician and a tradesman I think of it as simply developing my craft. In this case, however, the instrument is my own being if we're talking about creating a discipline through which I more skillfully learn to know myself, accepting myself and become the Creatrix (as in post #5 above).

(01-30-2011, 01:25 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]As I'm reading through the fourth book in this first full rereading of the entire series since, oh, 2001 maybe, one of the things that striking me as both an important pillar of the adept's path and something with which I have problems is the centrality of honesty. It appears that a lot of what strengthens the potential of a given act is the degree to which it is attempted with honesty. I imagine this indicates not merely honesty in interactions with others but especially with oneself.

In the past I have had difficulty with this. One reason for this, I suppose, is that the dishonesty with oneself is almost always in the service of protection; in other words, you are hiding something from yourself to prevent pain.

Another reason is a lack of will or concentration. When thoughts flit through the mind, especially thoughts contrary to where you are attempting to focus your energy, it can be a struggle to determine what the proper response is. On the one hand, you don't want to repress these thoughts, and I feel like I've made strides in having patience with my own impatience, for lack of a better expression. On the other hand, it doesn't seem that the process Ra describes of having those thoughts and tendencies which are no longer needed simply "fall away" suddenly; in other words, the falling away is gradual and not effected in some immediate sense.

This frustration with my own ability to commit to a path is positively self-defeating, because the less I keep my commitments to myself the more I reinforce either a loss of faith in myself or erect a wall of dishonesty with self to not have to experience this dejection.

But if this pattern is to be turned around, if I am to commit my energy in a way that breaks the cycle, and sort of hold on for dear life to a discipline, how am I to do so without in some sense introducing regimentation and control over myself at least on some level? How do I discipline the self with love?

I don't expect complete answers to these issues, or even answers at all. Just thought maybe somebody has feedback that could help. It doesn't hurt to put it out there.

I understand that the most important resource here is patience and compassion for self; I guess maybe the real conundrum here for me is that I'm having trouble considering compassion and patience in the full constellation of aspects that apply here. Maybe one of you have a thought that could inspire the consideration of a quality I had not imagined yet.

Thank you.

I think most, if not all, problems in this world arise out of a sense of self-exceptionalism. Even genuine seekers can conveniently forget the following in the daily course of life -

Quote:More applicable would be the thought that each entity contains within it all of the densities and sub-densities of the octave so that in each entity, no matter whither its choices lead it, its great internal blueprint is one with all others. Thusly its experiences will fall into the patterns of the journey back to the original Logos. This is done through free will but the materials from which choices can be made are one blueprint. (extracted from LOO 71.13)

Wise words, brother.

(01-31-2011, 10:05 PM)AppleSeed Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe "change of identity" is closer to what happens than "loss of identity"? You gain some, you lose some -- gradually. Once when I turned away because of fear of loss of identity, I was given a vision of myself merging with another being. There was no loss, only gain.

The identity might be a word that means different things to each and one of us. What we mean sometimes by that word is "who" we are. And "loosing identity" becomes frightening if we no longer recognize ourselves. But what I perceive as identity is the current way the self experiencing and interprets the outside and inside worlds. The "true" identity is not that. THAT identity is the core of your Being and can be found in meditations. So actually what you changing is your current view and way of how to look and interpret, not the core of your Being/who you are.

(01-31-2011, 10:05 PM)AppleSeed Wrote: [ -> ]Then again, I'm probably too busy enjoying the flowers along the side of the road to be really anxious to get the process sped up. My feeling is that if it takes a lot of discipline, then there's some lack of honesty in the path. If the passion to move quicker is there, then the work requires less discipline, or rather, the discipline is a joy, a choice, and not controlling.

Honesty is crucial. When I stopped dodging inconvenient thoughts and feelings then the process became somewhat automatic and fast, handing over the tools for the next step. Desire to manifest the spirit (or aspects of it useful in this lifetime) is what I see as a driving force on this road (what you call "passion to move"). I agree with you regarding "not controlling". Control of the self is something we acquire before we wake up, and is difficult to release due its automatic function to protect the self (from the self).

Once again I'm extremely late to a thread. Been out of town for a few days.

I'm not sure I'd be great on advice here, but I can definitely say that I resonate with your feelings. Being honest with myself has been a lifelong struggle, and most of it seemed to stem from shame I felt due to actions I perceived to be unwise or flawed. I lost faith in myself when it came to making correct decisions, and delusions formed to shield me from the pain of this lack of faith quickly filled the hole. In my case I continually played the victim. I constantly experienced rather intense psychic greetings and I allowed myself to believe that I was an innocent victim being preyed upon, and that I deserved sympathy, both from others and from my unforgiving self.

In reality, I WANTED the greetings and enjoyed them on some subconscious level, because it was a great distraction from the pain brewing deep in my heart. It made me feel special, and in some twisted sense, wanted. I was secretly pleased that negative entities would go to such great lengths to interfere in my life, as I saw myself as insignificant and not worth anybody's time. The things that happened to me were not pleasant, but I was drawing them all to myself. I was flashing a beacon saying COME HERE! Through my inability to accept myself and evaluate my feelings honestly, I was tearing huge holes in my aura and allowing all sorts of things through.

I only share this because all that pain I brought upon myself came from a lack of self-honesty and self-respect. When I finally realized what I was doing I felt a deep shame, but I've realized that looking at the situation objectively is just about the only way to "fix" things. I had to step back from my own shame, fear, doubt and my personal attachment to my actions and observe them as if they were a science experiment, with a neutral disposition. I had to see my conscious self as an unaware test subject who was reacting to programmed catalyst in whatever way seemed natural and instinctive. By doing this I could them forgive myself for my blind actions, and, as the master scientist, I could re-adjust the variables of the experiment in order to produce more favorable outcomes. Now that I've relinquished my dependence on psychic greeting I don't experience it nearly as often as I used to.

I know this probably isn't the same as your situation, but I hope it helps a little.

(02-01-2011, 01:00 AM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-31-2011, 10:05 PM)AppleSeed Wrote: [ -> ]My feeling is that if it takes a lot of discipline, then there's some lack of honesty in the path.

That's an intriguing thought.

Yeh, but I think I would agree with myself more had I written "control" instead of "discipline".

(02-01-2011, 03:23 AM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]Discipline
This word seems to scare a lot of people. As a musician and a tradesman I think of it as simply developing my craft. In this case, however, the instrument is my own being if we're talking about creating a discipline through which I more skillfully learn to know myself, accepting myself and become the Creatrix (as in post #5 above).

Yes, I was actually thinking along these lines after posting, last night. Discipline is a word that can take on a lot of different shades, since it can mean punishment, as well as simply a field of study, or the act of studying. The discipline of practicing a musical instrument hours each day doesn't feel like punishment to the person who wants to do it, it's just, well, work at its worst, and a true joy, even a spiritual experience at its best.

(02-01-2011, 03:23 AM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]Identity
From my viewpoint it's the feeling of loss of identity that can be such an obstacle. It's something I have to work with a lot. I try to massage it and warm it up and encourage it to be more pliable. There's a whole lot there I'm unconsciously unwilling to relinquish.

Why? Maybe the Magician of the conscious mind can help...

(02-01-2011, 08:50 AM)Ankh Wrote: [ -> ]The identity might be a word that means different things to each and one of us. What we mean sometimes by that word is "who" we are. And "loosing identity" becomes frightening if we no longer recognize ourselves. But what I perceive as identity is the current way the self experiencing and interprets the outside and inside worlds. The "true" identity is not that. THAT identity is the core of your Being and can be found in meditations. So actually what you changing is your current view and way of how to look and interpret, not the core of your Being/who you are.

I think it's maybe not just the *word* identity that can mean different things to us, but the very experience of who we are. That's where delving into the core of the being can accomplish a change, no? I would suggest that this ties into the idea of transparency as well. What we used to think of as identity, before starting the awakening process, is still there, but no longer successfully blocking the view towards the deeper self. And we're already a step deeper with Identity than with Personality, yes? Personality I see as something very brittle, which rarely lasts much longer than a lifetime. Even though a surprising number of personality traits seem to just hang on for dear life.

Hmmm... it seems so cloudy in words. It's so much clearer in silence. We're probably talking about the same things....

But I also had a real fear of loosing even the I in I AM, and that I believe was mistaken.

(02-01-2011, 08:50 AM)Ankh Wrote: [ -> ]Honesty is crucial. When I stopped dodging inconvenient thoughts and feelings then the process became somewhat automatic and fast, handing over the tools for the next step. Desire to manifest the spirit (or aspects of it useful in this lifetime) is what I see as a driving force on this road (what you call "passion to move"). I agree with you regarding "not controlling". Control of the self is something we acquire before we wake up, and is difficult to release due its automatic function to protect the self (from the self).

"desire to manifest the spirit in this lifetime" - let's do it!

And since we're there; self-control can also mean many different things, depending on which self and what kind of control we're talking about. ;-) Finding the faith to let go of control can be tough, sometimes...

(02-01-2011, 12:21 PM)ahktu Wrote: [ -> ]Being honest with myself has been a lifelong struggle, and most of it seemed to stem from shame I felt due to actions I perceived to be unwise or flawed.

Exactly. We hurt ourselves with our judgment and shame. Then to protect ourselves, we abandon the source instead of facing and healing it. It's easy to intellectualize it and just say, well, that's catalyst. It's another thing entirely to experience it.

I feel like it's in precisely these kinds of personal moments when I'd benefit from an appreciation for the archetypical framework. To at least have a clue of how these things become soluble in one's life.

What you describe seems very similar to what I've experienced. I think for me the points at which I have made the most sustained progress is when I could, as others have advised me on other threads, pick myself up, dust myself off, and say "let's have another go at this". Everyday is a new chance to be oneself, but that can seem far too much responsibility sometimes - what, you mean I actually have to be conscious of what I'm thinking, and not just let it drive me and simply react to it?

Your situation sounds more like mine than you probably imagine, so I appreciate you sharing. What helps me more than anything is reassurance, examples, demonstrations that others deal with this, that I'm not alone. It seems so sappy because I intellectually know that there's no reason I can't do A, B, and C, and there's certainly no reason I need others' support for those ends. Then I go through a bunch of intense emotional experiences and recall that, yes, in fact, I am not simply an intellect.

So thanks for sharing, it is very much appreciated.

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(02-01-2011, 02:15 PM)AppleSeed Wrote: [ -> ]Yeh, but I think I would agree with myself more had I written "control" instead of "discipline".

Right - but what is the difference? This is my big question in essence. In what sense does Ra distinguish the two concepts, do you think?

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(01-31-2011, 03:41 PM)peregrine Wrote: [ -> ]So, what does "transparent" mean exactly in this context?

Good question. What do you think?

Well, it reminds me of something somebody said to me on the Asc2k mailing list years ago. He said the more aware one becomes, the less one is actually living one's life as a personal drama, and the more one is sort of a spectator of one's ego and situations.

Similarly, I feel like a transparent personality would be one in which the third density situation at a given moment is appreciated less and less for its material nature and more and more as an opportunity for expressing the self/the Creator. That is, you release ego identification as the only driving force in a given situation and embrace spirit identification as at least a choice of perspective, if not the one you always choose.

In such a flipping of the identities, it's not so much that you become somebody different. It's that you aren't trapped; that you can get a 30,000 foot view in addition to a 3 ft view. Perhaps the difference is not necessarily qualitative but quantitative. You aren't less invested necessarily in the day-to-day concerns, but you don't regard those concerns as constraining on you. This comes with responsibility inherent in it, however, and as Ahktu said, it is a valid and typical response to reject it.

This is why the description of concepts like the higher self and the archetypical mind as a resource makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. In that sense, the ego identity is, too, a "resource". This makes the search for the authentic self or, as Max Stirner described it, "the unique one", all the more critical. The transparency arises from being able to step out of the way of the energies/dynamics/thoughts, whether they are material or spiritual in orientation, and not simply identify with their harnessing or manipulation.

It's almost like a different take on the agent/principal problem. Who you think you are (who you think the principal is) determines what you think the set of possible attitudes and actions are (the scope of your agency).

Please don't feel a need to react to all this babbling, but I'd be interest in feedback on any portion of it.

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(02-01-2011, 02:15 PM)AppleSeed Wrote: [ -> ]Discipline is a word that can take on a lot of different shades, since it can mean punishment, as well as simply a field of study, or the act of studying. The discipline of practicing a musical instrument hours each day doesn't feel like punishment to the person who wants to do it, it's just, well, work at its worst, and a true joy, even a spiritual experience at its best.

Perhaps a good start at a distinction between control and discipline is that discipline involves the regularization of will and desire, whereas control is the constraint of will and desire. Positive reinforcement vs. negative restriction?

I don't think that's a sufficient explanation of the distinguishing characteristics, but maybe it starts us down a fruitful path.

(02-01-2011, 02:54 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]Right - but what is the difference? This is my big question in essence. In what sense does Ra distinguish the two concepts, do you think?

Good big question. Thanks to the search function on the site I'll go and type in the words and see what happens. I'm due for a re-read anyway...

(02-01-2011, 02:54 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps a good start at a distinction between control and discipline is that discipline involves the regularization of will and desire, whereas control is the constraint of will and desire. Positive reinforcement vs. negative restriction?

if this is about indigo work, amounts of both will come in balanced fashion into your work.

(02-01-2011, 02:54 PM)jeremy6d Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps a good start at a distinction between control and discipline is that discipline involves the regularization of will and desire, whereas control is the constraint of will and desire. Positive reinforcement vs. negative restriction?

I don't think that's a sufficient explanation of the distinguishing characteristics, but maybe it starts us down a fruitful path.

Sounds like a fine enough template to use. I'm now trying to see where the radical honesty comes into the picture. Everywhere, I guess. Especially in looking at the will and desire, and recognizing where there are conflicting wills and desires, and why. Also in seeing honestly which level one is at, in order to properly design the discipline for getting to the next level. Then again, don't I need to aim higher than I think is possible, in order not to limit myself?

I think the trick is to keep the honesty non-judgemental.
Easier said than done...