In a film I have mentioned in another thread, Knowing (end of world scenario with Nicolas Cage as the main character), the idea or 'Randomness versus Determinism' is discussed. I find myself of late interested in that process as possibly described by Ra, seeing it in simple terms as 'Randomness versus Self-sought catalyst'.
What I mean is, when events occur in our life from which we can learn, the general opinion amongst Bring4th members (as far as I can see so far) appears to be that our core self invited it. This is a very hard line view, if it is held at all, allowing no room for random events which may be used for learning, or discarded in a 'walk on by' sense as not of much importance.
In reading through the Ra materials I find a lot of passages where they refer to random energies, but so far cannot find anything regarding whether they feel that involvement with others can just as easily be random rather than sought by self in other-self.
In myself when experiencing oneness, this is of no consequence and such thoughts do not arise (as most human-level thoughts do not). In my 99% waking human state though, I feel and logically reason that sought catalyst and random events are equally available.
Do you have any thoughts on this? Do you recall any passages in the Ra materials which do refer to it specifically? (Links will appreciated if you have any).
Edit...
I did find more when I got my search on another site better defined, such as this (which happens to be regarding planetary catastrophe, though not particularly relevant to my thoughts);
"I am Ra. The question must be answered in two parts. Firstly, the planetary catastrophes, as you may call them, are a symptom of the difficult harvest rather than a consciously programmed catalyst for harvest. Thus we do not concern ourselves with it, for it is random in respect to conscious catalyst such as we may make available.
The second portion is this: the results of the random catalyst of what you call the earth changes are also random. Thus we may see probability/possibility vortices going towards positive and negative. However, it will be as it will be. The true opportunities for conscious catalyst are not a function of the earth changes but of the result of the seniority system of incarnations which at the time of the harvest has placed in incarnation those whose chances of using life experiences to become harvestable are the best."
I don't think it's just core self invitations. There's pre-birth agreements, karmic energies, even planetary posititions can affect catalyst.
(08-08-2011, 09:39 AM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think it's just core self invitations. There's pre-birth agreements, karmic energies, even planetary positions can affect catalyst.
Sure Wolf, I appreciate that there are a lot of factors involved. I am not sure my question was so clear, or perhaps I should have added more about what I feel about it all.
Basically, as I said, in oneness there is no concern about attachment, catalyst, and so forth. Oneness is free of ego-mind thoughts and feeling of separation, obviously. But in duality/polarity, I do not personally feel that all catalyst is pre-planned, or that every event which occurs in our lives is to be taken as catalyst within the sense of, "Oh, here is something you are not addressing!" In another thread I said that such is bullshit, meaning that to assign
everything the role of catalyst is or may be nonsense.
Now it may be so that everything is indeed catalyst for growth in one form or another. Not knowing for sure leaves open the possibility that we learn even from not knowing this. What I find sad at times is others using the idea of
everything as catalyst to 'put down' someone else and act superior. Mind you, it could be said that my response to that means that this very thing is catalyst for
me! But we could go around in circles forever with such thoughts.
It is of little importance in the grand scheme of things, but I am curious to know whether my feeling that there is room in this universe for randomness as well as cause/effect catalyst is also felt by others.
You can go to
http://www.lawofone.info and click a link to show you a "random" question and answer. The link says "Update July 2, 2011: View a
random question and
answer."
You're probably right though, many on this board that follow the LOO will state something along the lines of "there are no mistakes, everything is as it should be".
In session 69, Ra sums it up when he says "Although there are no mistakes, there are surprises."
It's funny to me,
in some of the q/a sessions, Don has a habit of saying "did I make a mistake?". Ra usually ignores his entire question, and states "I am Ra. There are no mistakes"
I get the jist of what you're trying to get at, however, when you get right down to it, the "random" thing, that you think is random, doesn't actually exist in the way you think of it, it's part of the illusion. It's a purpose of the illusion to simulate randomness to facilitate the expression of free will.
It's hard to believe, but even the smallest random thing has it's place. In the completeness of the illusion, there are no mistakes.
It could be you are presented with random acts to question the nature of the universe, and to challenge if they are random or not.
(08-08-2011, 07:10 PM)seejay21 Wrote: [ -> ]I get the jist of what you're trying to get at, however, when you get right down to it, the "random" thing, that you think is random, doesn't actually exist in the way you think of it, it's part of the illusion.
I think I disagree with your thoughts as presented here CJ. That sounds far to much like a Matrix film quote, by which I mean, sounding deep just for the effect of sounding deep.
Quote:It's a purpose of the illusion to simulate randomness to facilitate the expression of free will.
So you are suggesting that free will is merely a simulation within an illusion? In other words, everything within the universe is nothing more than illusion, and we are all playing along to a pre-written script, with anything random being merely an illusive diversion. A pretty stupid way for an infinite creator to experience itself, would you not say..?
I think it is fantastic that you're bringing common sense to this. The illusion doesn't exist. It's a fabrication in itself, but this is where we live. Its hard to see it when its everywhere you look. Perhaps you have never had personal experience seeing it from another view? Do you meditate?
If its all hocus pocus to you, then that's fantastic. Its all good.
(08-08-2011, 09:48 PM)Kiko Wrote: [ -> ] (08-08-2011, 07:10 PM)seejay21 Wrote: [ -> ]I get the jist of what you're trying to get at, however, when you get right down to it, the "random" thing, that you think is random, doesn't actually exist in the way you think of it, it's part of the illusion.
I think I disagree with your thoughts as presented here CJ. That sounds far to much like a Matrix film quote, by which I mean, sounding deep just for the effect of sounding deep.
Quote:It's a purpose of the illusion to simulate randomness to facilitate the expression of free will.
So you are suggesting that free will is merely a simulation within an illusion? In other words, everything within the universe is nothing more than illusion, and we are all playing along to a pre-written script, with anything random being merely an illusive diversion. A pretty stupid way for an infinite creator to experience itself, would you not say..?
In response to the bold paragraph.
Free Will is the first distortion according to Ra....the prime illusion of Infinity. So if you go by Ra, then yes, free will is merely an illusion. Interesting to note that Ra also calls the Law of Free Will, the Law of Confusion. Derive whatever meaning you want from that, but I would recommend to take frequent breaks when contemplating these things, it can become daunting very quickly you dig?
@Turtle Yes, I very much dig. It is daunting. If you have an idea of what lies down that path of thought you might call it daring. It's a pretty big pill to swallow. There is no choice for a red or blue pill, just one big freakn pill.
From my view, if kiko doesn't want to swallow what I have to say about it, all the better! It will make the big pill an even more wonderful surprise.
(08-09-2011, 02:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote: [ -> ]@Turtle Yes, I very much dig. It is daunting. If you have an idea of what lies down that path of thought you might call it daring. It's a pretty big pill to swallow. There is no choice for a red or blue pill, just one big freakn pill.
From my view, if kiko doesn't want to swallow what I have to say about it, all the better! It will make the big pill an even more wonderful surprise.
Turtle and CJ; thank you for your thoughts. I do not want to seem dim (I am dim at times by default!) I do see your points, and last replied in the early morning hours after a pretty much unbelievably 'random' event.
As if to show me something, via some insignificant single events, I found myself out drinking with a guy I do not really know but who lives locally, surrounded by five drunk, fun, very beautiful dancing girls half my age. I am not joking. Completely out of the blue; one minute at home, the next chatting to gorgeous 20+ year olds and thinking, "How the hell did this happen?"
It offered all kinds of catalyst, as you might imagine, and has left me with cause for much thought regarding how I am living my life. All I have wanted recently is peace and quiet, yet I seem to be being offered what most men past fifty years of age only dream of. I find it very strange, and yes, it feels random and happened in a seemingly random manner.
I certainly do know illusion from oneness, and still do not have an answer to determinism v. randomness, even within the illusion. Is it
possible to have true randomness within an illusion? As you say, is not randomness just part of the illusion? And even more strange, why when I am a man with morals and a sense of duty to other self in the form of (possibly) vulnerable/immature young women, am I being offered all too much by many at random times? (This is not the first time this kind of event has occurred).
This life is so strange as to be ridiculous.
(08-09-2011, 03:06 AM)Kiko Wrote: [ -> ]As if to show me something, via some insignificant single events, I found myself out drinking with a guy I do not really know but who lives locally, surrounded by five drunk, fun, very beautiful dancing girls half my age. I am not joking. Completely out of the blue; one minute at home, the next chatting to gorgeous 20+ year olds and thinking, "How the hell did this happen?"
It offered all kinds of catalyst, as you might imagine, and has left me with cause for much thought regarding how I am living my life. All I have wanted recently is peace and quiet, yet I seem to be being offered what most men past fifty years of age only dream of. I find it very strange, and yes, it feels random and happened in a seemingly random manner.
Haha... sorry I find it sort of funny that you seem to question that event. don't you live in the UK? From what my sources tell me, this is not unusual. Girls get dressed up, go out and get drunk. Blame women's lib
I would advise you to enjoy their company.
Yes Meerie, I do live in the UK, and it is not at all unusual to see swathes of lovely young things out drinking every night of the week. What is a little unsettling is that whenever I am in the proximity of such, just speaking to one attracts others like bees. I am not particularly good looking in any currently perceived sense, though I am direct and honest in communicating with others.
I do not go out looking for the company of younger women, and so such events perhaps seem very random. Also, there are a number of similar aged beauties in my very close family, so young women 'getting fresh' with me usually ends in a fatherly hug, as it did with a girl of model material last night. The man I was with, who I barely know, slept with a pretty blonde of 19 the night before, but admitted later that he felt bad because she obviously had attention issues and needed cuddling more than anything else. (He is in his late 40s).
Too much entanglement for me right now, yet I do wonder why this happens now and then, and whether I am in fact not 'joining in' with life fully. Anyway, this event and others like it do seem to happen when I am pondering randomness, as the thread topic suggests.
Ho hum!
Let me just add, I find the original topic quite interesting. The way I view it, there is a certain amount of predeterminism, for sure.
but I guess we also "change" things along the way according to the decisions that we make during our journey.
That is when randomness kicks in.
Like for example, you could also have chosen to stay home last night (you mention you are into peace and solitude) and then all of these things with the hot chicks would not have happened.
or you could have chosen to go to a philosophical soiree and there might have met some one else. etc. etc.
sometimes things happen kind of "last minute like" to change something that we originally planned to do.
The question is... are these seemingly random events also part of predeterminism? ohmygod I think my brain is melting right now!
(08-08-2011, 04:58 AM)Kiko Wrote: [ -> ]In a film I have mentioned in another thread, Knowing (end of world scenario with Nicolas Cage as the main character), the idea or 'Randomness versus Determinism' is discussed. I find myself of late interested in that process as possibly described by Ra, seeing it in simple terms as 'Randomness versus Self-sought catalyst'.
Self sought catalyst may be your choice of "area" for your work, based on the variables within the future of the individual.
Randomness may be the result of all the others that chose an area that overlaps yours.
"I will begin my drive at point A, and reach my destination at point B." (Self Sought Catalyst)
"I did not make it to point B after getting in a fender bender" (Randomness)
The myriad of possibilities that can stop your progress to point B are those variable possibilities of randomness. While you use your free will to choose the destination, you still have to go up against the randomness of all other entities free will choices.
(08-09-2011, 11:10 AM)Pickle Wrote: [ -> ]Self sought catalyst may be your choice of "area" for your work, based on the variables within the future of the individual. Randomness may be the result of all the others that chose an area that overlaps yours.
Aha; I like that way of putting it Pickle. After all, we likely do not plan every little detail of a life experience, or it would be useless living it. Having other-selves with their own general life purposes overlap each other on a huge scale, changing their futures as they decide and re-decide on things, allows for a kind of randomness.
Now if I can just work out what is going on with the babe magnet thing... (Well actually, it is more their choice to be wanton and drunk these days than my choice to be suddenly handsome and attractive!)
Humans question and think, gods be and go.
=D
Extending Pickle's thoughts, I think that we influence the randomness, making our choices fewer and more optimum. Being in good touch with Higher Self would serve toward that end, I think. Probably a side effect of regular meditation, which alone would influence better choices. :idea:
This is a very useful thread! I'm going to start watching for a good fare to the UK.
(08-09-2011, 05:37 PM)kycahi Wrote: [ -> ]This is a very useful thread! I'm going to start watching for a good fare to the UK.
May I assume you mean the cute, wanton and drunk young women? I had assumed this kind of generational change in behaviour was a global thing. Perhaps not..? I suppose as a 'randomness flag', things could be worse.
Quote:10.15 Questioner: I was wondering about the advent of the civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria, when these civilizations occurred, and where did they come from?
Ra: I am Ra. This is the last question of this working. The civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria were not one but two. Let us look first at the Mu entities.
They were beings of a somewhat primitive nature, but those who had very advanced spiritual distortions. The civilization was part of this cycle, experienced early within the cycle at a time of approximately 53,000 of your years ago. It was an helpful and harmless place which was washed beneath the ocean during a readjustment of your sphere’s tectonic plates through no action of their own. They sent out those who survived and reached many places in what you call Russia, North America, and South America. The Indians of whom you come to feel some sympathy in your social complex distortions are the descendants of these entities. Like the other incarnates of this cycle, they came from elsewhere. However, these particular entities were largely from a second-density planet which had some difficulty, due to the age of its sun, in achieving third-density life conditions. This planet was from the galaxy Deneb.
The Atlantean race was a very conglomerate social complex which began to form approximately 31,000 years in the past of your space/time continuum illusion. It was a slow growing and very agrarian one until approximately 15,000 of your years ago. It reached quickly a high technological understanding which caused it to be able to use intelligent infinity in an informative manner. We may add that they used intelligent energy as well, manipulating greatly the natural influxes of the indigo or pineal ray from divine or infinite energy. Thus, they were able to create life forms. This they began to do instead of healing and perfecting their own mind/body/spirit complexes, turning their distortions towards what you may call negative.
Approximately 11,000 of your years ago, the first of the, what you call, wars, caused approximately forty percent of this population to leave the density by means of disintegration of the body. The second and most devastating of the conflicts occurred approximately 10,821 years in the past according to your illusion. This created an earth-changing configuration and the large part of Atlantis was no more, having been inundated. Three of the positively-oriented of the Atlantean groups left this geographical locus before that devastation, placing themselves in the mountain areas of what you call Tibet, what you call Peru, and what you call Turkey.
There definitely seems to be some randomness. There's no rush to "finish" or anything, as there's basically all the time you could ever want to explore all experiences you desire.
(08-10-2011, 01:08 AM)blargg Wrote: [ -> ]There definitely seems to be some randomness. There's no rush to "finish" or anything, as there's basically all the time you could ever want to explore all experiences you desire.
I am appreciative for all the answers in this thread, and I think your use of the word
seems sums it up Blargg. As others have said, randomness and catalyst ordered from the menu for our pleasure and learning are all a kind of illusion. Everything is distortion from oneness: everything is part of the 'game' we are free to play in any way we chose.
While I know that is so, I do find it interesting to explore ideas, knowing full well that I am using the very limited abilities and perceptions of my human ego-mind. That is part of the game and part of the fun, and if we did not do it we would probably just sit in a room looking at the wall, getting up only to eat, sleep, and go to the toilet now and then. While I would not wish to belittle those who practice living in such a way, I think that it is 'not living the game' that we came here to play. But then who am I to say?
Also, I like to find a balance in seeing what others have to say on perceptions I have (eg., randomness), by which I mean, not going to the extremes of either discounting all other opinions, or falling into repetitive discussion which becomes just an exercise in self-aggrandisement for all involved. These forums are a good part of the game, so thank you all!
(08-10-2011, 05:44 AM)Kiko Wrote: [ -> ]As others have said, randomness and catalyst ordered from the menu for our pleasure and learning are all a kind of illusion.
While I have this body I do not look at life as an illusion. I call it reality simply because it is reality for us during the game.
Although I am aware of the smaller concept of illusion, which is the portion where are brain creates a part of the image our eyes try to interpret, filling in the blanks, or even modifying what is there to appear how we want it.
This is where your overweight mate appears skinny in your mind, while an actual photograph makes them appear wider.
You can see the difference looking through a digital viewfinder and noticing that the person is the only thing that changes size. That was quite an interesting experiment for me LoL.
(08-10-2011, 11:33 AM)Pickle Wrote: [ -> ]You can see the difference looking through a digital viewfinder and noticing that the person is the only thing that changes size. That was quite an interesting experiment for me LoL.
There have been many scientific experiments showing that perception and expectation alter results. It shows that we see what we want to see, and that our own view of the universe is not the same as the one everyone else has. It also seems to show that matter does actually transform to fit what mind desires. But as you say, we live in the illusion and so are required to accept it as real to some degree.
I would not run head first at a wall thinking that it is just an illusion and that my head will not splat, because my head and the wall are part of the same world. All very like The Matrix, which is why the film was so insightful and popular (as well as the great looking cast and cool fight scenes).
I think that when people parrot the phrase that "all is illusion" they very often miss the point that the illusion is not the world around them: the illusion is in their own mind.
The viewfinder experiment blew me away. That was yet another realization for me as to how the mind can modify what we perceive. That was a pretty awesome moment for me.
I look at how multiple witnesses to the same event will have "seen" something different. What they see tends to be largely influenced by previous experience which will be different for each of them.
So our perception seems to ride on previous experience, and when you peel all of that away back to the time of your birth, what were you able to perceive in the beginning?
(08-10-2011, 01:39 PM)Pickle Wrote: [ -> ]The viewfinder experiment blew me away. That was yet another realization for me as to how the mind can modify what we perceive. That was a pretty awesome moment for me.
I look at how multiple witnesses to the same event will have "seen" something different. What they see tends to be largely influenced by previous experience which will be different for each of them.
So our perception seems to ride on previous experience, and when you peel all of that away back to the time of your birth, what were you able to perceive in the beginning?
Here is an article describing much of what we are now talking about (so what for on-topic?!) albeit in a trashy UK online newspaper. (Browser with Ad-block advised);
http://goo.gl/ZhOYw
I cannot find it right now, but there has been very detailed research which shows that colour may not even exist, but that our minds create it 'on the fly'. It seems that the scientific perspective is showing the holographic nature of our seemingly solid universe. Personally, I love the way this and disclosure of other-family and their oh-so-easy technology is all being revealed little by little to awakening minds. When some shout, "When will disclosure happen?" my answer tends to be, "It already is happening".
Oh, and as to back to the beginning (recently after birth); such young minds see it all. I have watched that in action, and it is wonderful. The baby of a friend saw my 'invisible friends' and pointed to exactly where they were, and her slightly older child spoke to them, and turned to another wanderer and said with a lovely smile, "You are an alien!"
Great thread with interesting concepts and ideas. I think that randomness fully exists, yet there are 'backup' catalysts in place incase u choose decisions that take u off of ur mission. However, free will means that we can choose to ignore the catalysts and continue along the chosen path. Also, if u drive and can take two routes to get somewhere, what one do u take and y? Its random, and the people u meet and events that occur wen u take one of the routes, would not hav occured if u took the other route.
Now pre-planned as it may be that those people were ment to be there or that those things were ment to happen, if u didnt for whatever reason (perceived traffic, scenery, length, etc), decide to chose that route then those opportunities would hav been lost. But in both cases it is random, because the choice is never made until u actively make it. I really do believe in randomness, especially from 1st hand experience, as 'meant to be' as finding the Law of One was, the way i eventually did come round to finding it, then reading it was truly random. Was i meant to find it, probably, how...? thats the beauty of free will and the 'illusion', and y i believe randomness 2 exist.
Love and Light
EDIT- just 2 add quickly, There can b randomness within the goal. ie- a street race between point a and point b, with several routes to take... the goal is known, how they will reach it, is not. So the outcome may be pre-determined, but the way in which u reach it is not.
The creator is infinite. As seemingly 'finite' reflections of the creator (the veil being the main source of our finite nature), all things have already happened and occurred, so to speak. This is the main paradox of creation- if the creator is infinite, then there would be, rationally, no need to experience itself in infinite forms.
I believe that this is why 'the law of free will' and the 'law of confusion' are both tied closely together. This is the original confusion, the initial paradox of the Law of One (and any monism based philosophy). IMHO the creator choose to be that which it was not able to experience (finitude), and in choosing, made a finite 'choice' away from infinity, but in doing so, expanded its consciousness beyond it's infinite nature.
To demonstrate this point a bit; there is infinite space between any two points- and there are an infinite array of colors, although we put the ends of the spectrum at white and black. Therefore, the consciousness of the infinite is not the same of the consciousness of the infinite finitudes that it is currently experiencing. The value of finite experiences in an infinite consciousness therefore lies in it's confusion, it's distortion from infinity. The infinite understands all things, but the inherent value of each experience lies in it's ability to expand the consciousness of the infinite.
That is to say, the creator is still growing, and evolving as we are. Just at a supremely higher level than we are. At this point, I speculate, but perhaps the creator is an ever growing collection of higher octave soul groups, which have returned to the creator in their stage of evolution. Hence the seemingly infinite nature of the creator. Infinite consciousness is not awareness of all things, but just emptiness. The infinite only exists in relation to the finite experiences that it is experiencing.
This relates to free will vs. determinism by basically stating that both are illusions. We are given the illusion of choice and of determined events, but in truly, we are neither free nor determined beings. At a higher level, we are working upon our being, rather than our actions. From our being, flows our actions- and here if our being is 'pure' so to speak (harmonious with the higher self/creator), then the actions are neither free or determined. Actions react according to context, but stem from the being that 'determines' the proper means of dispensing such actions.
In summation, a great teacher of mine once stated on this debate by saying: "You choose to ask me this question, but you always were going to anyways."
The law of confusion is at great work here, there is no need to discuss such things. The state of being is important to focus upon at this time. Do not worry about the circumstances around you, the events that occur- the 'signs' to harvest. Only your state of being is 'important' to focus upon.
(08-31-2011, 09:03 PM)SomaticDreams Wrote: [ -> ]At this point, I speculate, but perhaps the creator is an ever growing collection of higher octave soul groups, which have returned to the creator in their stage of evolution.
That's an interesting observation. Makes sense. Though I think that higher octaves still fall under Creator, or should I say within Creator. I see there's a difference between God and Creator. God being that which created our Octave of existence, and Creator above all Octaves, or all Octaves within Creator.
If this life is an illusion, then we're part of the same illusion and subject to the same rules that govern the illusion. I think random catalyst comes at us daily...many times over. Our free will is executed in our responses to that catalyst. We make the choice of STO/STS (or somewhere in between)...probably unconsiously our entire life based on our life experiences to date. Pre-determinism makes no sense if you take take Free Will in that context since your life experience is function of those choices.
Until we begin to awaken. At which point, I believe...we begin to question our choices and behaviors consciously. And act to change outcomes, or at the very least question our choice and motives after we choose to act the way we did.
Richard
Random catalyst must always be considered at play as there are material-based choices made by this solar system that are still playing out and exploring themselves. The Laws of Physics are beings onto their own that need refinement across the macrocosm.