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I have been contemplating some of the ideas brought forth in Book 4 about the evolution of logoi:

76.18 Wrote:Questioner: I didn’t understand what you meant by what you said “as seen by you to be quite vivid.” What did you mean?

Ra: I am Ra. This creation is somewhat more condensed by its Logos than some other Logoi have chosen. Thus each experience of the Creator by the Creator in this system of distortions is, relatively speaking, more bright or, as we said, vivid.

77.19 Wrote:Questioner: Do the Logoi that choose this type of evolution choose both the service-to-self and the service-to-others path for different Logoi, or do they choose just one of the paths?

Ra: I am Ra. Those, what you would call, early Logoi which chose lack of free will foundations, to all extents with no exceptions, founded Logoi of the service-to-others path. The, shall we say, saga of polarity, its consequences and limits, were unimagined until experienced.

77.20 Wrote:Questioner: In other words you are saying that originally the Logoi that did not choose this free will path did not choose it simply because they had not conceived of it and that later Logoi, extending the first distortion farther down through their evolution, experienced it as an outcropping or growth from that extension of the first distortion. Am I correct in saying that?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes.

78.18 Wrote:Questioner: So the original evolution then was planned by the Logos but the first distortion was not extended to the product. At some point this first distortion was extended and the first service-to-self polarity emerged. Is this correct and if so, could you tell me the history of this process of emergence?

Ra: I am Ra. As proem let me state that the Logoi always conceived of themselves as offering free will to the sub-Logoi in their care. The sub-Logoi had freedom to experience and experiment with consciousness, the experiences of the body, and the illumination of the spirit. That having been said, we shall speak to the point of your query.

The first Logos to instill what you now see as free will, in the full sense, in its sub-Logoi came to this creation due to contemplation in depth of the concepts or possibilities of conceptualizations of what we have called the significators. The Logos posited the possibility of the mind, the body, and the spirit as being complex. In order for the significator to be what it is not, it then must be granted the free will of the Creator. This set in motion a quite lengthy, in your terms, series of Logos’s improving or distilling this seed thought. The key was the significator becoming a complex.

I think it is safe to say at this particular stage of the game, we have many sub-Logoi who are rather irritated at the degree of suffering that occurs throughout this creation, due to the heavy veil that this Logos chose.

And yet, we are told that our Logos is one of many Logoi out here on the fringes of the galaxy experimenting with this "new" evolution in consciousness. Whether we "like it or not" we have been given The Choice, and now it is left to us to decide what to do with it.

While it is understandable that so many sub-logoi are discontented with the current circumstances surrounding The Choice, nevertheless we must capitulate that we are, in fact, sub-logoi. Therefore it would seem our discontent with the Logos can only be discontent with our Self.

If we are to have plans of one day going out "on our own" and becoming Logoi in our own right- isn't it imperative to accept ourselves to be at one with the Logos within whom we live and have our being? In other words, how can we make The Choice if we feel that we have been placed here against our will?

As for me, I think I would like to build upon this new theme in Creation. Granted there have been many difficulties with the eventuation of the veil and the STS path as tools for consciousness evolution. And certainly I think we can see how the overapplication of these tools could result in some extremely disastrous consequences.

What I would like to see is another evolution in creative methods, which capitalizes on the best of what Logoi thus far have learned through use of a heavy veil, yet maintains some of the innocence of the previous style of creation.

How could one build upon the innovation of the significator? I imagine it could result in entire new breeds of entities! What might they be like? I wonder what is going to be the "Next Big Thing In Logoi"?
I think the amount of free will we have is somewhat dependent on the veil, according to what I remember reading from Ra. Are you saying that to eliminate some of the suffering it might be necessary to reduce the amount of free will of your creations?

I think if I were creating something, I might learn as much as I can before giving it free will.

There is also the risk of what happens if your creation becomes more powerful than you, and takes over, like what George Kavassalas talks about?
(09-11-2011, 01:28 AM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]I think the amount of free will we have is somewhat dependent on the veil, according to what I remember reading from Ra. Are you saying that to eliminate some of the suffering it might be necessary to reduce the amount of free will of your creations?

According to my read, the degree of suffering in this reality is inversely proportionate to the amount of free will given to the sub-logoi. Based on history so far, sub-logoi given high degrees of free will choose to suffer in all manner of ways, and eventually seek to enslave one another.

However, this is not to say that a high degree of free will must needs result in all this suffering. Suffering is not the only option available for a sub-logos to choose. They just happen to keep choosing it over and over again in this creation. Sub-logoi could be given high free will, and just as easily choose joy.

Interestingly, this appears to be somehow tied up in the distortion of love. I am in particular thinking of various family dynamics where different members suffer for each other, but accept it as part of what it means to be loving.

There must be some way to preserve The Choice while setting things up for a more palatable road to freedom. Sub-logoi need to be completely free to choose suffering, and yet it should be glaringly obvious upon observing another choosing to suffer, that the suffering is unnecessary. In other words, it should be inherently obvious to all entities that there is always another choice available.

This is how sub-logoi in this creation get stuck in a rut so easily. They suffer because they truly see no other way. Global elitists and such ilk only exist because of the people's failure to perceive another way than what they are being offered. If the other ways are clear, there is no weakness to be exploited by STS. Therefore, STS if present will immediately see the futility of attempting to continue down that path.

This sounds to me like an important thing to carry over from this harvest: that there is always another way. If entities could somehow fundamentally understand this from the get-go... if it were part of their basic instinct rather than wisdom acquired through experience... I think it would bypass a lot of needless suffering while preserving a high degree of free will.
(09-11-2011, 03:06 AM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]There must be some way to preserve The Choice while setting things up for a more palatable road to freedom. Sub-logoi need to be completely free to choose suffering, and yet it should be glaringly obvious upon observing another choosing to suffer, that the suffering is unnecessary. In other words, it should be inherently obvious to all entities that there is always another choice
Not sure what you are saying. It should be, and it is, right?

(09-16-2011, 12:14 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-11-2011, 03:06 AM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]There must be some way to preserve The Choice while setting things up for a more palatable road to freedom. Sub-logoi need to be completely free to choose suffering, and yet it should be glaringly obvious upon observing another choosing to suffer, that the suffering is unnecessary. In other words, it should be inherently obvious to all entities that there is always another choice

Not sure what you are saying. It should be, and it is, right?

Actually no, I observe many people to choose suffering because they believe it to be the only option. They believe themselves to be victims, therefore they are at the mercy of circumstances. No choice in the matter. (or so it seems to them)

I'm not convinced that Logoi have an aversion to suffering. Suffering is a kind of experience -- and, having been there, I know that it is a fruitful one in many ways. If the purpose of the Creator were to simply return to the Creator, the experience would be small and brief. I suspect that the real standard by which Logoi operate in this sector of existence is variety: The disparate parts of the Creator will eventually return to the Creator regardless of how things play out, so in the act of Creation whatever can bring the Creator the most varied experience on the journey back is preferred. Clearly, suffering brings great variety, therefore, I have no reason to expect that the Logoi who begin their experiments after this one will not continue to experiment with suffering.

It is worth mentioning that the negative path involves a great deal of suffering, so eliminating suffering means eliminating the negative path -- which means eliminating the Veil and that Co-Creator which is your mind isolated from what you might call your Higher Self.


Come, let's us forget that future
If we end up soacked with blood again
Wrapped and coiled in the lukewarm wind

that's probably

A sign
A sign,a sign, a sign

Escape and break free, escape and break free
From a fate far to sad

You're not a flower of hell
Not in that place

Don't bloom there, don't bloom there
Don't let yourself get tangled up

Broking pieces of time, flying about whithout a sound
(09-19-2011, 11:20 PM)JustLikeYou Wrote: [ -> ]If the purpose of the Creator were to simply return to the Creator, the experience would be small and brief.


Thank you, I needed to hear that. I had thought that was the main purpose of Creator.
You're welcome. :-)
(09-19-2011, 11:20 PM)JustLikeYou Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not convinced that Logoi have an aversion to suffering. Suffering is a kind of experience -- and, having been there, I know that it is a fruitful one in many ways. If the purpose of the Creator were to simply return to the Creator, the experience would be small and brief. I suspect that the real standard by which Logoi operate in this sector of existence is variety: The disparate parts of the Creator will eventually return to the Creator regardless of how things play out, so in the act of Creation whatever can bring the Creator the most varied experience on the journey back is preferred. Clearly, suffering brings great variety, therefore, I have no reason to expect that the Logoi who begin their experiments after this one will not continue to experiment with suffering.

It is worth mentioning that the negative path involves a great deal of suffering, so eliminating suffering means eliminating the negative path -- which means eliminating the Veil and that Co-Creator which is your mind isolated from what you might call your Higher Self.

Thanks for this! And I do think you are right- there can be great opportunities born of suffering, and perhaps there are certain advantages to learning lessons through suffering rather than joy.

However, this need not be the case. What I was attempting to get at is that many people- including myself- choose to suffer because we erroneously believe(d) that suffering is the only way to spiritual growth.

So what I mean to say is- if I had my druthers- I would devise a method for entities to be crystal clear that suffering is merely an option, and not the "one true way" to evolution.

Other future logoi?? Dunno can't speak for them. BigSmile


Consider Joe.
Joe has reached the particular range of vibration he prefers, everything is going in the direction of what he prefers in every way, he sees difference and chooses the path he prefers.

Does joe finding this, eliminate the other vibratory ranges ?

It is not my business to go around and make infinity be singular, my business is to go where i may and become it.

You will always be where you are and where you are is where the game is happening there is no way out of this.

Only the self has this ability because in the end there only self and the unknown or there is nothing, complete balance results in no experience.

when everything is still and one, its where awareness ended, because to be aware means to be aware of something other then "you"(i mean you in general terms here).

Everything else is irrelevant because it is as it is, consciousness can't really shoot itself, the uncertainty will prevail.

THE ONE just IS, the ONE just be, the ALL is the experience

hence All that is

When i understood that my suffering in trying to make everything perfect and everything happy ended.

I suffer every day, but thanks to the LOO I have it in a decent perspective, believing that after this incarn I'll go into time/space and go, "Whoo-wee, that was one packed life! BigSmile Tongue " Then I'll have confabs with the folks that made me "suffer" and the ones that I made to suffer and we will hash it out, probably with laughs all around.

I will always remember Don saying that we live these 3D lives for experience only, not to "learn." Ra did say, frequently quoted around here, that 3D requires us NOT to understand anything. Hence, we learn just to cope better in this cycle, not to pick up details OR grand overviews for all time.

Logoi look at results and don't have bleeding hearts for the temporary suffering experiences in 3D space/time. Having said this, I don't wish to imply that we should view earthly suffering as just a walk in the park. Hell no, it's awful. There's the famine in Somalia, the misery in Haiti and on and on. But someone with the best hi-res 3D cameras can go there and record that life and put violins to it, and still viewing it on a screen will not make the effect the way actual living it does. Then there are all the opportunities to be of service that those places offer us, too. If I determine that my place is there to help those people, for sure my Harvest is certain.

I'm feeling guilty already. :-/
(09-22-2011, 12:42 PM)kycahi Wrote: [ -> ]I'm feeling guilty already. :-/

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._0103.aspx

Quote:Group question: We would like to ask Q’uo about guilt. When we feel guilt we are usually overtaken by the feeling and don’t know where it comes from. Could you give us information about where guilt comes from and how to work with guilt in our spiritual evolution.

I believe what Ra is saying is that The origanal Creator off this solar System has branched out in more ways than one.He is many Creations so quite vivid.
I also would like to offer this quote to mull over:

91.18 Wrote:Questioner: I assume, then, that twenty-two is the greatest number of archetypes. I also ask is it the minimum number presently in use by any Logos to Ra’s knowledge?

Ra: I am Ra. The fewest are the two systems of five which are completing the cycles or densities of experience.

You must grasp the idea that the archetypes were not developed at once but step by step, and not in order as you know the order at this space/time but in various orders. Therefore, the two systems of fives were using two separate ways of viewing the archetypical nature of all experience. Each, of course, used the Matrix, the Potentiator, and the Significator for this is the harvest with which our creation began.

One way or system of experimentation had added to these the Catalyst and the Experience. Another system if you will, had added Catalyst and Transformation. In one case the methods whereby experience was processed was further aided but the fruits of experience less aided. In the second case the opposite may be seen to be the case.

(09-23-2011, 08:09 AM)David Junior Wrote: [ -> ]I believe what Ra is saying is that The origanal Creator off this solar System has branched out in more ways than one.He is many Creations so quite vivid.
(09-22-2011, 02:53 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-22-2011, 12:42 PM)kycahi Wrote: [ -> ]I'm feeling guilty already. :-/


http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._0103.aspx

Quote:Group question: We would like to ask Q’uo about guilt. When we feel guilt we are usually overtaken by the feeling and don’t know where it comes from. Could you give us information about where guilt comes from and how to work with guilt in our spiritual evolution.


I got an answer for you.Giult can come from blame while being Honable.It can tease untill giult is formed,If you dont look for paths to seek help to find the blame and squash it or deal with it.It can become over whelming.We recommend Prey.

By "Honable" do you mean "Honorable"? I just wanted to make sure I understand your offering.

What is your native language?
what freedom you seem to have in this octave, wont be in the next octave.

any of you is able to polarize in terms of mover/moved ? no. you have positive/negative polarization.

that will also go away as a 'freedom' in the next octave as this creation balances itself more after this one. and a lot of the things which you were deeming as 'freedoms' will not be there, and you wont even care, desire or remember.
(09-23-2011, 04:27 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]what freedom you seem to have in this octave, wont be in the next octave.

Yet that will be a result of choice, rather than consequence.

unity100 Wrote:any of you is able to polarize in terms of mover/moved ? no.

Yes. Such an establishment is maintained between my personality and my Higher Self manifestation in 6D.

unity100 Wrote:you have positive/negative polarization.

Yes, but with the awareness that there is more than one type of polarization. There is also relative advantage of polarization. For example, given the particular purpose of the Higher Self, an entity might find it wholly desirable to maintain a polarity balance of 2/3, rather than constantly striving for unity.

unity100 Wrote:that will also go away as a 'freedom' in the next octave as this creation balances itself more after this one. and a lot of the things which you were deeming as 'freedoms' will not be there, and you wont even care, desire or remember.

I am guessing that the next octave will, in many ways, be an outgrowth of this one. We are not yet fully aware of what will/has become possible as a result of this bizarre creation in which we currently find ourselves.

On suffering...

I think that a certain point may be reached where there isn't any--within an individual. S/he is indifferent to it because of the way it is viewed. I see this transcendence first becoming possible when we use the Experience of Spirit:
The Experience of the Spirit archetype provides the soul with the patterning for using The Choice to grow spiritually and seek God based upon how we interact with Catalyst. Thus, we “experience” our feelings, impressions, and psychism, as well as those of other selves, through the lens of The Choice. RA states, “Due to the Catalyst of each adept the adept may begin to pick and choose that into which it shall look further. The Experience of the Spirit, that which you have called the Moon, is then, by far, the more manifest of influences upon the polarity of the adept. Even the most unhappy of experiences…seen from the viewpoint of the spirit, may, with discrimination possible in shadow, be worked with until light equaling the light of the brightest noon descends upon the adept and positive or service-to-others illumination has occurred. The service-to-self adept will satisfy itself with the shadows and, grasping the light of day, will toss back the head in grim laughter, preferring the darkness.”

Further, I think the Significator of Body, as the essence of the Body complex, has to do with internalizing the lessons of physical experience. The patterning offered by the Significator of Body is that of using “action” to know and internalize the lessons of the life, the patterning for acting in accordance with the voluntarily directed will. In effect, it is suggesting to us that we attempt to learn what we are capable of doing—allowing us to grow through trial and error; We use our will and refine our ability to use that will by processing the consequences (often painful) of our choices and actions. Nevertheless, ultimately, mastery of the world will result in our leaving it a conquered territory. Like God and Christ, we will sacrifice the physical man to the God within, the self to the Self. This is represented in the traditional tarot by The Hanged Man, iconography which calls up the image of Odin hanging on Yggdrasil, causing himself physical pain to bring about spiritual clarity and insight. Through this painful physical experience, Odin brought us writing, the runes. As each of us transcends, we also leave a gift of knowledge behind, for all are One and the achievements of one, touch us all.
(09-21-2011, 03:47 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]So what I mean to say is- if I had my druthers- I would devise a method for entities to be crystal clear that suffering is merely an option, and not the "one true way" to evolution.

We are doing this now:

1) Quantum physics: We are changing the way we understand existence. It is not a Newtonian universe of separate things, it is an infinite field of possibilities. So even mainstream science is beginning to understand "choice" in a very expanded way, which is involved with our intention (being the observer).

2) People are waking up because of things like quantum physics, a small underground of media who represent it (What the Bleep), the internet and all the varied information on it. It is a slow process because of the training we have had for millennia. We have to undo our subconscious beliefs in victimhood. But it is happening--slowly.

Suffering, in a way, adds to the richness of experience. But I think that is only because we embrace it fully, and we are familiar with it. If we were to become familiar with real joy and love (not sexual love, but unconditional love) and embrace it fully, I suspect it would be a hugely expanded vibration that would catapult a person into a higher place than suffering would. Have you ever had a dream where you see a person you haven't seen in a long time; someone whom you were close to, and experienced a kind of immense feeling of love never experienced in waking life? I think this is a clue to what real love/joy can feel like.

If we are indeed now in 4D light as Carla suggests, the time to understand choice is now, as the last piece of the 3D puzzle.
(02-15-2012, 05:00 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]Have you ever had a dream where you see a person you haven't seen in a long time; someone whom you were close to, and experienced a kind of immense feeling of love never experienced in waking life? I think this is a clue to what real love/joy can feel like.

Diana, yours is the first post I am reading of the day. I awoke this morning from a dream where the scenario you just described unfolded. I met with a person I haven't seen in over thirteen years, and felt bonded with incredible love.

I felt that was synchronicity worth noting, perhaps adding another layer of confirmation, or at least interest, to the veracity of your thought. : )

(02-16-2012, 10:59 AM)Bring4th_GLB Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-15-2012, 05:00 PM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]Have you ever had a dream where you see a person you haven't seen in a long time; someone whom you were close to, and experienced a kind of immense feeling of love never experienced in waking life? I think this is a clue to what real love/joy can feel like.

Diana, yours is the first post I am reading of the day. I awoke this morning from a dream where the scenario you just described unfolded. I met with a person I haven't seen in over thirteen years, and felt bonded with incredible love.

I felt that was synchronicity worth noting, perhaps adding another layer of confirmation, or at least interest, to the veracity of your thought. : )

Wow--that was a synchronicity. I don't think it gets any clearer than that. I think we must be on the right track. Smile
(09-23-2011, 04:27 PM)unity100 Wrote: [ -> ]any of you is able to polarize in terms of mover/moved ? no. you have positive/negative polarization.
yes, we do.
Masculine "Negative" = Mover
Femenine "Positive" = Moved... Altho the moved dont HAVE to be the femenine, just the "less maskuline".
(09-19-2011, 11:20 PM)JustLikeYou Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not convinced that Logoi have an aversion to suffering. Suffering is a kind of experience -- and, having been there, I know that it is a fruitful one in many ways. If the purpose of the Creator were to simply return to the Creator, the experience would be small and brief. I suspect that the real standard by which Logoi operate in this sector of existence is variety: The disparate parts of the Creator will eventually return to the Creator regardless of how things play out, so in the act of Creation whatever can bring the Creator the most varied experience on the journey back is preferred. Clearly, suffering brings great variety, therefore, I have no reason to expect that the Logoi who begin their experiments after this one will not continue to experiment with suffering.

It is worth mentioning that the negative path involves a great deal of suffering, so eliminating suffering means eliminating the negative path -- which means eliminating the Veil and that Co-Creator which is your mind isolated from what you might call your Higher Self.
In my opinion your extremely correct. Limitation is a direct inverse to diversity.

For example: Limitation within biomes, present opportunities for animals/entities to discover niches with in the limitation, and diversify.