Bring4th

Interesting thoughts, Ankh. Personally I use your first interpretation of the crocodile, so more like a protector. The ancient Egyptian crocodile god Sobek was worshipped among other things by those seeking protection and bravery. I'm just guessing here but perhaps in those days in Egypt the crocodile represented those values; protection and bravery.

Also, Ammit is a crocodile beast who, in Egyptian lore, represents "judgement" - Maat, the goddess of truth, weighs your heart against her feather and if your heart is too heavy, the crocodile eats it. I always see the crocodile as a symbol of whether or not the fool "makes the grade" and is able to ascend out of third density.

http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/weighi..._heart.htm

I was watching Planet Earth last night, and Nile crocodiles entered the scene. The crocs will sneak up to where a herd of other animals are drinking, snatch one, and bring it into the water to drown before the herd even has a chance to react. It was a violent display of the dangers of stepping into the river. When a crocodile clamps down on a creature, it will not let go. It just keeps pulling the creature until it is underwater, where the creature will drown.

I have previously tended toward an interpretation of this symbol through Egyptian mythology (as Jade mentions above), but now I'm not so sure. It seems to me that the Egyptians thought of the crocodile in the water as the mortal danger hidden from sight. I have to think they they would classify bodies of water into two groups: those with crocodiles and those without. The rivers without crocodiles were safe, but less abundant with fish; whereas the ones with crocodiles were unsafe but abundant. Given that crocodiles were probably the only water creature that would prey on the Egyptians themselves (no sharks in the river), it seems to me that this symbol represents danger more than it does either fear or protection. I don't think crocs are known to protect anything in general; rather, they are known to feed on the unsuspecting. Additionally, the fear of crocodiles is what prevents people from entering the river in the first place. If you have entered, then you are already facing the fear. So fear is probably involved (if you know the river has crocs), but danger still seems to be at the center of the symbol.

The crocodile is the monster in the house---a monster which appears over and over in our fictional narratives. Some examples from film: Jaws, Tremors, Jurassic Park, Alien, Event Horizon, Sunshine, Kujo, It, etc. In each of these fictional narratives, the characters find themselves in an enclosed space where a voracious monster threatens their lives. I think this is what the crocodile represents.

Yea that's because crocodiles are scary as a mother******. I would also agree with you JustLikeYou.

(05-07-2017, 11:44 AM)JustLikeYou Wrote: [ -> ]I was watching Planet Earth last night, and Nile crocodiles entered the scene. The crocs will sneak up to where a herd of other animals are drinking, snatch one, and bring it into the water to drown before the herd even has a chance to react. It was a violent display of the dangers of stepping into the river. When a crocodile clamps down on a creature, it will not let go. It just keeps pulling the creature until it is underwater, where the creature will drown.

I have previously tended toward an interpretation of this symbol through Egyptian mythology (as Jade mentions above), but now I'm not so sure. It seems to me that the Egyptians thought of the crocodile in the water as the mortal danger hidden from sight. I have to think they they would classify bodies of water into two groups: those with crocodiles and those without. The rivers without crocodiles were safe, but less abundant with fish; whereas the ones with crocodiles were unsafe but abundant. Given that crocodiles were probably the only water creature that would prey on the Egyptians themselves (no sharks in the river), it seems to me that this symbol represents danger more than it does either fear or protection. I don't think crocs are known to protect anything in general; rather, they are known to feed on the unsuspecting. Additionally, the fear of crocodiles is what prevents people from entering the river in the first place. If you have entered, then you are already facing the fear. So fear is probably involved (if you know the river has crocs), but danger still seems to be at the center of the symbol.

The crocodile is the monster in the house---a monster which appears over and over in our fictional narratives. Some examples from film: Jaws, Tremors, Jurassic Park, Alien, Event Horizon, Sunshine, Kujo, It, etc. In each of these fictional narratives, the characters find themselves in an enclosed space where a voracious monster threatens their lives. I think this is what the crocodile represents.

If the croc does protect or guard, then I was thinking that it protects or guards the *purity* of the Path. For instance, if a person finds salvation in say Jesus, and wakes up, and then starts to serve. Perhaps this person later on chooses to proselytize others in order for them too to "find Jesus". This is not a pure service to others. So, you started to walk the Path, but wasn't pure enough in your heart and in that case the croc took you away from that path and drowned you in deep waters or "ate your heart" at the Harvest, or whatever the analogy one may use... I'm just thinking out loud here.

But another thing that I was thinking of is that if the croc represents fear or danger, then what sorts of danger does it represent? Or fear of what specifically? Of course, the Fool is about to walk an unknown path so it is given to be a bit uncomfy or even afraid in that situation, but I was wondering if there was something specific to fear or feel as a danger since the croc is taking such a central part in this Archetype? And one thought that appeared to me is that perhaps the croc as representative for fear and danger tries to "embody" here the Law of Responsibility? The Law of Responsibility states that once you ask for something and then learn it, you can't go about your day as you did before that. You need to put into practice in each moment what you have learned. So, I was wondering if the croc in this Archetype represents just that. If you don't put in practice what you learn when walking this path, the croc will attack. There is no more innocence. Column of third density has fallen and the croc sits on it. And the Fool balances on what looks like a fine scale. Only by walking in a strait and narrow way will not tip that scale over on one or the other side...

I think the croc is the equivalent of "getting swept into the maelstrom" (for Wanderers). I guess for native 3rd density it would maybe represent reversion to the orange chakra. So, instead of moving forward in consciousness, one moves backwards/is impeded. I think that is the "great danger" of third density. I think the Law of Responsibility might tie in there somewhere, too - obviously if you ignore it, you generate karma, and are thus swept into the maelstrom.

Or, it could be literal - the gobbled heart. The danger of third density being the danger of the absent heart chakra.

Ankh Wrote:But another thing that I was thinking of is that if the croc represents fear or danger, then what sorts of danger does it represent? Or fear of what specifically? Of course, the Fool is about to walk an unknown path so it is given to be a bit uncomfy or even afraid in that situation, but I was wondering if there was something specific to fear or feel as a danger since the croc is taking such a central part in this Archetype?

At any moment, we can get injured, killed, duped, abused, defrauded, kidnapped, etc. Or, as Ra says, "There is no outward shelter in your illusion from the gusts, flurries, and blizzards of quick and cruel catalyst."

Ankh Wrote:And one thought that appeared to me is that perhaps the croc as representative for fear and danger tries to "embody" here the Law of Responsibility? The Law of Responsibility states that once you ask for something and then learn it, you can't go about your day as you did before that. You need to put into practice in each moment what you have learned. So, I was wondering if the croc in this Archetype represents just that. If you don't put in practice what you learn when walking this path, the croc will attack. There is no more innocence.

I like this. I think it is one of the dangers the croc represents, but this seems to be the kind of danger only an adept would really know about. The archetype, as experienced by any old person, would involve perception of danger in the old-fashioned way. I know my take on this one is rather unexciting, but this archetype's job is to describe the total human condition, and I think most people would say that "watch out for the monsters" is a warning you'd want to put on the label for the human condition.

Bring4th_Jade Wrote:I think the croc is the equivalent of "getting swept into the maelstrom" (for Wanderers). I guess for native 3rd density it would maybe represent reversion to the orange chakra. So, instead of moving forward in consciousness, one moves backwards/is impeded. I think that is the "great danger" of third density.

My first thought was that this analysis strikes me as a little too meta for the humble 3d archetypes. Looking past 3d experience in order to explain these images puts us in danger of missing the point. Of course you're right that this is the great danger of 3d, but I think the croc refers to something we experience within the illusion, rather than something we can only appreciate from a perspective beyond the illusion.

On the other hand, I tend to think that these archetypes describe our experience on all hierarchical levels. This suggests that there is an absolute macrocosm (i.e. the broadest level) which they accurately describe. So now it seems to me that you are describing that broadest level, which we can only discuss in terms of the meta.

Ankh Wrote:Column of third density has fallen and the croc sits on it.

I'm still trying to make sense of the column. A column is something distinctly constructed by human beings. So maybe it's the contractual/artifactual world. Some questions and cursory answers:

But why is it disintegrating? Perhaps because no social order seems to work properly in 3d. Our institutions always seem to corrupt.

Why is the disintegrated part in the water? Maybe because it's our unconscious tendencies that corrupt our institutions more than our conscious ones.

Why does the threat rest atop it? Perhaps that means that the monsters in 3d are other human beings and the organs of our societies. Who knows, maybe the croc has eaten part of the column.

I have to argue against my analysis being "too meta". The archetypes, as presented by Ra, are primarily meant for use by the adept, and are almost impossible to divorce from the source material, which places the archetypes in a position of meta. The archetypes are about peering through the illusion, so the end goal itself is meta, therefore I think analysis of the cards, particularly of the Fool, should probably be somewhat meta.

As far as the column, if we look at where the column symbol is echoed - the Priestess, the Hierophant, the Chariot, and the Hanged Man - so primarily the mind cycle, seeming to indicate that the fear is more psychological ('illusory') than actual literal physical danger. The symbol of the knocked over column is also echoed in the Spirit cycle in the Lightning card - the fallen over construct of the mind - and oh look, there's the Hierophant and Hanged Man who are the ones falling out of the tower. So again we refer to the question being - is it fear or is it danger?

The most poignant symbol to me in the Fool card is his baggage. The Fool starts off with a humble sack of belongings - sitting on his left shoulder and echoing the downward slant of the left hand side of the card - I believe this is the symbol of the artifacts constructed in third density, specifically technology. Ra says that balancing the body cycle is all about "understanding the body in its natural functions", and the role of most modern technology is that of thwarting or deviating from nature. As the Fool begins and ends the journey, the small knapsacks represent the few things we actually need to progress on our spiritual journey, having abandoned all the extra things/distortions we have accumulated along the way. Contrast the simple Fool with the frivolity and ostentatiousness of the Hierophant - all of his accoutrements and fancy hats upon his stage. The Fool wears naught but the hides of animals. The Fool is the balance between the Hierophant and the completely ascetic Hanged Man, who basically has nothing but the ropes he has bound himself with.

I want to emphasize that saying the knapsack represents "technology", I mean that in the broadest of senses, including the constructs of society (being an attempt at "engineering" based on observations), and also the menial physical things that distract us, like cheap smart phones and buying new cars. I think the journey of the Fool primarily revolves around what he chooses to keep in those bags of holding.

Anyway, just some musings, thanks for the talk, guys.

(05-07-2017, 11:44 AM)JustLikeYou Wrote: [ -> ]I was watching Planet Earth last night, and Nile crocodiles entered the scene. The crocs will sneak up to where a herd of other animals are drinking, snatch one, and bring it into the water to drown before the herd even has a chance to react. It was a violent display of the dangers of stepping into the river. When a crocodile clamps down on a creature, it will not let go. It just keeps pulling the creature until it is underwater, where the creature will drown.

I have previously tended toward an interpretation of this symbol through Egyptian mythology (as Jade mentions above), but now I'm not so sure. It seems to me that the Egyptians thought of the crocodile in the water as the mortal danger hidden from sight. I have to think they they would classify bodies of water into two groups: those with crocodiles and those without. The rivers without crocodiles were safe, but less abundant with fish; whereas the ones with crocodiles were unsafe but abundant. Given that crocodiles were probably the only water creature that would prey on the Egyptians themselves (no sharks in the river), it seems to me that this symbol represents danger more than it does either fear or protection. I don't think crocs are known to protect anything in general; rather, they are known to feed on the unsuspecting. Additionally, the fear of crocodiles is what prevents people from entering the river in the first place. If you have entered, then you are already facing the fear. So fear is probably involved (if you know the river has crocs), but danger still seems to be at the center of the symbol.

The crocodile is the monster in the house---a monster which appears over and over in our fictional narratives. Some examples from film: Jaws, Tremors, Jurassic Park, Alien, Event Horizon, Sunshine, Kujo, It, etc. In each of these fictional narratives, the characters find themselves in an enclosed space where a voracious monster threatens their lives. I think this is what the crocodile represents.

Yeah Nile crocodiles are ferocious ambush predators and the impressive footage in Planet Earth clearly shows this dangerous side of the animal. I certainly wouldn't go swimming in waters that had a croc sign and to me it makes perfect sense that in today's world one would ascribe values like danger or fear to the image of a crocodile. However I have the feeling there might be a cultural difference at play on how we view the croc compared to early civilizations in the Nile valley. Eventhough I also read plenty of writings that contradict my hunch, the overall impression I got is that these civilizations considered the Nile crocodile a sacred animal and a sign of fertility. Back then river floodings were seen as a good thing for it would fertilize the land, and where there were floods there were crocs. According to some Egyptian mythologies the Nile river was created by the sweat of the crocodile god Sobek and the Nile crocodiles were its protectors, warding off evil. Furthermore archaeologists have found mummified crocodiles on the burial sites of pharaohs and records suggesting they might have kept them as pets, and in my humble opinion these findings show how highly respected this animal was at the time. In session 93.21 and 93.22 Ra talks about the significance of the serpent form pictured in the catalyst of the mind card and how the ancient Egyptians culturally viewed the animal as a sign of wisdom. Obviously crocs aren't serpents, but I guess the thought I am trying to get across is that perhaps one needs to view the crocodile in the same light the Egyptians did the serpent. A sign of fertility or something along those lines. 

Sharing this in the spirit of the discussion, a completely different facet of crocodiles than any of us have ever seen:


[video=youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7fZZUfvx0s[/video]

Maybe as with the lion, the goal is to tame the crocodile? Just a side thought.

(05-11-2017, 07:32 PM)Ankh Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-07-2017, 11:44 AM)JustLikeYou Wrote: [ -> ]I was watching Planet Earth last night, and Nile crocodiles entered the scene. The crocs will sneak up to where a herd of other animals are drinking, snatch one, and bring it into the water to drown before the herd even has a chance to react. It was a violent display of the dangers of stepping into the river. When a crocodile clamps down on a creature, it will not let go. It just keeps pulling the creature until it is underwater, where the creature will drown.

I have previously tended toward an interpretation of this symbol through Egyptian mythology (as Jade mentions above), but now I'm not so sure. It seems to me that the Egyptians thought of the crocodile in the water as the mortal danger hidden from sight. I have to think they they would classify bodies of water into two groups: those with crocodiles and those without. The rivers without crocodiles were safe, but less abundant with fish; whereas the ones with crocodiles were unsafe but abundant. Given that crocodiles were probably the only water creature that would prey on the Egyptians themselves (no sharks in the river), it seems to me that this symbol represents danger more than it does either fear or protection. I don't think crocs are known to protect anything in general; rather, they are known to feed on the unsuspecting. Additionally, the fear of crocodiles is what prevents people from entering the river in the first place. If you have entered, then you are already facing the fear. So fear is probably involved (if you know the river has crocs), but danger still seems to be at the center of the symbol.

The crocodile is the monster in the house---a monster which appears over and over in our fictional narratives. Some examples from film: Jaws, Tremors, Jurassic Park, Alien, Event Horizon, Sunshine, Kujo, It, etc. In each of these fictional narratives, the characters find themselves in an enclosed space where a voracious monster threatens their lives. I think this is what the crocodile represents.

If the croc does protect or guard, then I was thinking that it protects or guards the *purity* of the Path. For instance, if a person finds salvation in say Jesus, and wakes up, and then starts to serve. Perhaps this person later on chooses to proselytize others in order for them too to "find Jesus". This is not a pure service to others. So, you started to walk the Path, but wasn't pure enough in your heart and in that case the croc took you away from that path and drowned you in deep waters or "ate your heart" at the Harvest, or whatever the analogy one may use... I'm just thinking out loud here.

But another thing that I was thinking of is that if the croc represents fear or danger, then what sorts of danger does it represent? Or fear of what specifically? Of course, the Fool is about to walk an unknown path so it is given to be a bit uncomfy or even afraid in that situation, but I was wondering if there was something specific to fear or feel as a danger since the croc is taking such a central part in this Archetype? And one thought that appeared to me is that perhaps the croc as representative for fear and danger tries to "embody" here the Law of Responsibility? The Law of Responsibility states that once you ask for something and then learn it, you can't go about your day as you did before that. You need to put into practice in each moment what you have learned. So, I was wondering if the croc in this Archetype represents just that. If you don't put in practice what you learn when walking this path, the croc will attack. There is no more innocence. Column of third density has fallen and the croc sits on it. And the Fool balances on what looks like a fine scale. Only by walking in a strait and narrow way will not tip that scale over on one or the other side...

I like that interpretation, and even if this wasn't specifically what "they" meant. I am sure you are right. I am dealing with issues of this nature myself currently. That croc has a nasty bite =(

Interesting ideas, guys!

Sunnysideup, yes, I agree with you in regards as to what exactly did the croc represent to ancient Egyptians at the time when Ra was transmitting these Archetypes to them. This is a disadvantage of "old" teachings, when the cultural/societal meanings of symbols might have been lost. This croc bothered me already from the beginning when I started to look at this Archetype, because we just don't know exactly what it meant to the Egyptians at the time these images were drawn. And the same goes with Sphinx.

Anyways, back to the analysis of this croc, though it might be a way off from the intended meaning of this aspect, but here are some more thoughts.

The fallen column represents to me a changed view of third density once one has awaken. Some people say that once you spiritually wake up, you can never go back to sleep again. And it has been my personal experience too. The *view* of third density and its problems is not the same anymore. To take as an example, some people, once they have been spiritually awakened, stop watching TV or read the newspapers or follow sports. Some others change their way of living and being in some other ways. My point is that once you wake up from third density sleep, many things within third density lose their importance and significance for you, like sports or TV for instance. You also start to view third density differently, and you can never go back to how it was before you woke up. There are other values, spiritual ones, that become more important than the third density values like money, career, etc.

And then we have this croc sitting on the column. And as I was contemplating it, it appeared to me that I have felt that fear, which this croc represents! I know this fear. We probably all do. Let me try to explain it.

For instance, imagine that there exists some inertia or repeated pattern in your life. And that you one day decide that you've had enough of this repeated theme in your life and you want to change it. *But* you don't want to change it in what is considered to be a normal or common way as it is seen in your culture or society, but in a magical way. In short, you have decided to go against the flow. That's how you decide to change this pattern in your life. In order to do that, one needs to go deeper within to understand, accept and heal whatever the experience one is having that one wants to change. So what one needs to do is to go within, as deep as that road will take you. And you never know what you meet there. There are indeed dark, unknown and deep waters! And at least to me, it invokes a little bit of fear. It feels like doing magical work! But it makes your heart beat faster. It makes you excited and afraid at the same time. And you know, that once you take that step into those deep waters, it can never be the same as it has been before. So yeah, once again, I feel the Law of Responsibility here.

The magical work here is the Magician courting his bride, High Priestess. They meet, they dance, they mate. There is the Catalyst, which is an element of the unconscious mind, that through the dance of veiled and unveiled portions of the mind, becomes Experience; and then the Significator, which has been acted upon, acts through the Choice. That is why Significator is paired with Choice.

P.S. Jade, I can't see that vid that you posted. It says that it's unavailable to me.

Nope. The Choice is like ricdaw earlier in this thread mentioned, is about this one *culminating* Choice. 

Considering this Archetype from this perspective, makes me to see the croc as both guarding and "beware of danger of your missteps" warning. It can represent the fear one may feel when one decides to make this culminating Choice, and danger that exists when walking this road. In polarity lies also power. This power is protected by the croc in the proportion to seeker's purity of will to serve. This power is depicted by outstretched wings outside the box of Significator and above its head. And the Fool has only its experiences of both polarities, carefully packed in two different bags, and the walking stick of faith and will to guide it.

Bring4th_Jade Wrote:I have to argue against my analysis being "too meta". The archetypes, as presented by Ra, are primarily meant for use by the adept, and are almost impossible to divorce from the source material, which places the archetypes in a position of meta. The archetypes are about peering through the illusion, so the end goal itself is meta, therefore I think analysis of the cards, particularly of the Fool, should probably be somewhat meta.

Just to be clear, the charge of being "too meta" was only my first thought. That my first thought was critical rather than supportive is surely catalyst for me to reflect on. Forgive me if I was a little sharp here; I'm still learning how to be less prickly.

In any case, I do think your interpretation is acceptable, but it still strikes me as only appropriate to the highest macrocosmic description of 3d.

While you are right that the images are intended for adepts, the archetypes themselves are experienced by all, so we shouldn't limit our interpretations of the symbols to only what an adept would notice, though we should definitely include the things only an adept would notice. Everyone inhabits the building but only a few of us check the blueprints to better understand how to use the building.

sunnysideup Wrote:However I have the feeling there might be a cultural difference at play on how we view the croc compared to early civilizations in the Nile valley. Eventhough I also read plenty of writings that contradict my hunch, the overall impression I got is that these civilizations considered the Nile crocodile a sacred animal and a sign of fertility. Back then river floodings were seen as a good thing for it would fertilize the land, and where there were floods there were crocs. According to some Egyptian mythologies the Nile river was created by the sweat of the crocodile god Sobek and the Nile crocodiles were its protectors, warding off evil. Furthermore archaeologists have found mummified crocodiles on the burial sites of pharaohs and records suggesting they might have kept them as pets, and in my humble opinion these findings show how highly respected this animal was at the time. In session 93.21 and 93.22 Ra talks about the significance of the serpent form pictured in the catalyst of the mind card and how the ancient Egyptians culturally viewed the animal as a sign of wisdom. Obviously crocs aren't serpents, but I guess the thought I am trying to get across is that perhaps one needs to view the crocodile in the same light the Egyptians did the serpent. A sign of fertility or something along those lines. 

I don't know enough about ancient Egyptian culture to comment on the accuracy of this claim. I wonder if pharaohs kept crocs as pets the same way crime lords on TV keep attack dogs as pets. If the Egyptians did have such positive associations with this animal, then I commend them on their willingness to find the good within the terrifying. However, it's still pretty hard for me to sidestep the notion that a crocodile with an open mouth is an immediate danger that should be avoided.

I find myself wishing Ra had gone out on a limb to update these images for us. You almost have to be an archaeologist to understand them.

Jade Wrote:Sharing this in the spirit of the discussion, a completely different facet of crocodiles than any of us have ever seen

I can't see this video either.

Ankh Wrote:And the same goes with Sphinx.

Yep, another sticky one. It's very difficult to separate ancient Egyptian meanings of this creature from those meanings that have been piled upon it in more recent times, such as the meanings ascribed in astrology or the western occult. Ra, as usually, gives us only a morsel to nibble on.

Ankh Wrote:Some people say that once you spiritually wake up, you can never go back to sleep again. And it has been my personal experience too. The *view* of third density and its problems is not the same anymore. To take as an example, some people, once they have been spiritually awakened, stop watching TV or read the newspapers or follow sports. Some others change their way of living and being in some other ways. My point is that once you wake up from third density sleep, many things within third density lose their importance and significance for you, like sports or TV for instance. You also start to view third density differently, and you can never go back to how it was before you woke up. There are other values, spiritual ones, that become more important than the third density values like money, career, etc.

Given your "nope" response to yourself, you might have figured this one out already. But your description here sounds like it belongs to archetypes 15, 16 and 17: the collapse of your personal narrative in the face of sudden awakening and the subsequent effort to walk a path forged by your new-found faith, regardless of the cultural resistance you might meet. Ra even speaks to this:

80.10

Ra Wrote:The progress chosen by many adepts becomes a confused path as each adept attempts to use the Catalyst of the Spirit. Few there are which are successful in grasping the light of the sun. By far, the majority of adepts remain groping in the moonlight and, as we have said, this light can deceive as well as uncover hidden mystery. Therefore, the melody, shall we say, of this matrix often seems to be of a negative and evil, as you would call it, nature.


It is also to be noted that an adept is one which has freed itself more and more from the constraints of the thoughts, opinions, and bonds of other-selves. Whether this is done for service to others or service to self, it is a necessary part of the awakening of the adept. This freedom is seen by those not free as what you would call evil or black. The magic is recognized; the nature is often not.

The questions and answers following this one, especially 80.13, make it even clearer that Ra is talking about just this kind of removal or "dissociation" from consensus reality:

80.13

Ra Wrote:The excursion of which you speak and the process of disassociation is most usually linked with that archetype you call Hope which we would prefer to call Faith. This archetype is the Catalyst of the Spirit and, because of the illuminations of the Potentiator of the Spirit, will begin to cause these changes in the adept’s viewpoint.

Ankh Wrote:Considering this Archetype from this perspective, makes me to see the croc as both guarding and "beware of danger of your missteps" warning. It can represent the fear one may feel when one decides to make this culminating Choice, and danger that exists when walking this road. In polarity lies also power. This power is protected by the croc in the proportion to seeker's purity of will to serve. This power is depicted by outstretched wings outside the box of Significator and above its head.

I agree with this.

Ankh Wrote:the Fool has only its experiences of both polarities, carefully packed in two different bags, and the walking stick of faith and will to guide it.

Jade offered a rather different interpretation of these bags that, I think, should be considered against this one. Here's Jade's interpretation:

Jade Wrote:The most poignant symbol to me in the Fool card is his baggage. The Fool starts off with a humble sack of belongings - sitting on his left shoulder and echoing the downward slant of the left hand side of the card - I believe this is the symbol of the artifacts constructed in third density, specifically technology. Ra says that balancing the body cycle is all about "understanding the body in its natural functions", and the role of most modern technology is that of thwarting or deviating from nature. As the Fool begins and ends the journey, the small knapsacks represent the few things we actually need to progress on our spiritual journey, having abandoned all the extra things/distortions we have accumulated along the way.

This has been roughly my interpretation of the baggage also. If we take the "meta" perspective, the baggage also represents the harvest of the process.

Maybe these two interpretations are consistent with each other. Surely polarity is indicated, since there are two bags, one on each side. Maybe each sack contains the tool necessary for polarizing on that path, and the Fool chooses which set of tools to use.

I also wanted to comment on another of Jade's contributions:

Jade Wrote:As far as the column, if we look at where the column symbol is echoed - the Priestess, the Hierophant, the Chariot, and the Hanged Man - so primarily the mind cycle, seeming to indicate that the fear is more psychological ('illusory') than actual literal physical danger. The symbol of the knocked over column is also echoed in the Spirit cycle in the Lightning card - the fallen over construct of the mind

You make a good point. I've interpreted the constructs in the mind cycle (most notably, the Heirophant) as the mental construct we create of the world: our belief system or paradigm. It still seems important to me that the column begins to disintegrate in the water. So, echoing something Ankh said earlier (which I said belonged to the spirit cycle), this column looks a little like the disintegration of our mental constructs as we wade deeper and deeper into the unconscious.

A final note on Ankh's reminder that this archetype represents the culminating choice.

I seems to me that a culminating choice doesn't need to be looked upon statically (not that anyone here is doing that). I think of making the capstone 3d choice as a gradual process of magnetizing all the disparate elements of self that arise in each different situation. A person can be a saint in some situations and a jerk in others. We might be tempted to think that such a person was only pretending in their saintly moments, but my experience tells me that we don't polarize evenly. One phase of a person's personality maybe have undergone the fine-tuning that brings about moral polarity, while another phase is still rough, unconscious, and fairly destructive in its effects upon others.

I would hesitate to accept descriptions in which making the Choice occurs in a single identifiable moment, like Christians going before the congregation and "getting saved." The process seems more like an achievement of critical mass, like magnetizing a piece of iron by setting it next to a magnet. The individual molecules in that piece of metal will gradually turn, some sooner than others, until they are all facing the same direction and the iron now has a magnetic field of its own. While there will be some identifiable moment in which the iron took on its own polarized field, the work doesn't happen all in that one moment. I don't necessarily see anyone here suggesting that our experience of this archetype is not dynamic, but I wanted to say "out loud" why I don't think it is.

Hey Ankh..I was thinking the other week how you once brought up the statement of Ra saying that only the creator enters through the feet, and greetings come from above. It occurred to me that the feet and the upward spiral represents actualized choices, and the power we have to determine the course of our path, our will. Walking down the road we come upon an obstacle. We can blindly walk right into it causing pain and/or seeing it as presenting some sort of road block that is in our way that we must go straight through somehow. Or, through proper choice, realize the power we have within to see that things are not always what they seem, and that we can "go around" so to speak..reform it..or that it wasn't even there. Straight line spiral. The possibilities come from above, both positive and negative, but it is our will and action that ultimately determines our course. That is to say we have a choice, if we are able to recognize it, and why nothing but the creator is in control of that.

This leads to JustLikeYou's mention of the column. Perhaps it was Ra or some other member on here, but interpreting it as the crumbling of illusion makes sense to me..the breaking down of form. It represents old concrete patterns, those roadblocks. And sure enough we see the Fool walking into the water, which represents the formless and potential..the resource we draw from to reform the illusion. Letting go of old patterns is indeed scary, with unseen things lingering in the water. That's one way of seeing it.

Regarding the Fool and the items in his bag:

Quote:10.8 Questioner: Is there any danger of this happening to Earth at this time? [Blowing ourselves up like Maldek]

Ra: I am Ra. We feel this evaluation of your planetary mind/body/spirit complex’s so-called future may be less than harmless. We say only the conditions of mind exist for such development of technology and such deployment. It is the distortion of our vision/understanding that the mind and spirit complexes of those of your people need orientation rather than the “toys” needing dismantlement, for are not all things that exist part of the Creator? Therefore, freely to choose is your honor/duty.

Hello everyone!
Reading this post came some things about croc.
Speaking shortly  - Column symbolizes smth about Knowledge/teachings.
Croc symbolizes greed with which each seeker eats knowledge. Look at open mouth.Seeker abandoned all teachings.
"as the Significator of the mind, the Hierophant has the will to know, but what shall it do with its knowledge, and for what reasons does it seek?"

I was doing some reading on the Fool and learned some interesting things: the crocodile is a symbol of virility; of maximal creative energy. This is in relation to the innocence of the Fool. The crocodile was unprovided with the means of perpetuating its species, according to ancient Egyptian tradition. Because of this, he became a symbol of maximum creative energy.

This quote from the Book of Thoth really resonates with me; it’s deep:

Quote:Arriving at highly sophisticated theogony, there appears a perfectly clear and concrete symbol of this doctrine. Harpocrates is the God of Silence; and this silence has a very special meaning. (...) The first is Kether, the pure Being invented as an aspect of pure Nothing. In his manifestation, he is not One, but Two; he is only One because he is 0. He exists; Eheieh, his divine name, which signifies “I Am” or “I shall Be”, is merely another way of saying that he Is Not; because One leads to nowhere, which is where it came from. So the only possible manifestation is in Two, and that manifestation must be in silence, because the number 3, the number of Binah—Understanding—has not yet been formulated. In other words, there is no Mother. All one has is the impulse of this manifestation; and that must take place in silence. That is to say, there is as yet no more than the impulse, which is unformulated; it is only when it is interpreted that it becomes the Word, the Logos. (See Atu I.)

Zero/0 refers to the Unmanifest, the negative veils of existence; One refers to Kether, which is pure Being; Two refers to Chokmah/Wisdom/the All-Father. The Fool is the path between Kether and Chokmah, one and two.

Harpocrates is the graeco-Egyptian equivalent of the Fool.

Quote:The crocodile of the Nile is called Sebek or Mako—the Devourer. [...]

There is, however, an identity between the creator and the destroyer. [...]

So also, in the initiated symbolism, the act of devouring is the equivalent of initiation; as the mystic would say, “My soul is swallowed up in God.” (Compared to the symbolism of Noah and the Ark, Jonah and the Whale, and others.)

Crowley suggests that we constantly keep in mind the bivalence of every symbol. “And this is the great Mystery of the Supernals that are beyond the Abyss. For below the Abyss, contradiction is division; but above the Abyss, contradiction is Unity. And there could be nothing true except by the virtue of the contradiction that is contained in itself.”

The concept complexes which are the archetypes should flow one into the next. And we should try not to hang onto one or another of the contradictions of the symbol. Perfectly in alignment with Ra’s balancing exercise: allowing the opposite to rise in mind side by side it’s opposite.

I’m here calling “the Choice” the fool. With what I shared above, the doctrines are identical. The Fool/Choice plays a dual function. 1) the leap of faith as the “fool”, and 2) the initiation of “the Choice”. In my opinion, 0. The Fool/Choice is a deep, powerful, profound concept/idea/archetype.

(02-12-2019, 09:56 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: [ -> ]The Fool is the path between Kether and Chokmah, one and two.

Harpocrates is the graeco-Egyptian equivalent of the Fool.

That's not the same as Da'at, the Abyss where you have to cross to get to Kether, or is it?
I believe that is where Crowley lost his mind.

(02-12-2019, 11:28 AM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-12-2019, 09:56 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: [ -> ]The Fool is the path between Kether and Chokmah, one and two.

Harpocrates is the graeco-Egyptian equivalent of the Fool.

That's not the same as Da'at, the Abyss where you have to cross to get to Kether, or is it?
I believe that is where Crowley lost his mind.

So the Abyss is the area between the three Supernal Sephiroth and the bottom 7. Between Chokmah/Binah and Chesed/Geburah. Da’ath is called a false sephirah because it’s not a proper sephirah. “Ten and not nine, ten and not eleven.”

The High Priestess is the first to cross the Abyss by path 13, between Tiphareth and Kether. Yesterday I did a contemplative meditation on I. The Magician נ. I will start another meditation later this week on the Priestess and I might know more about that path.

Path 13 (II. The High Priestess) is mysterious to me. One connection I can see now is that the Priestess is veiled and a title for Kether is the “Concealed of the Concealed”. It is said that no man may look upon the face of God and live, hence Tiphareth is Kether for us while we are incarnate as humans. Tiphareth is directly connected to Kether. Christ said “None get to the Father but by me.”

I’ll share insights I have on another thread though since this one is about the Choice!

Not sure if this has been answered yet, but I have a question about one of the symbols in the Church of Light Egyptian tarot. There is a dual-Sun: There is the sun which looks like it’s being eclipsed by a black circle which is the same size as the sun. Is this the black sun? Or is it meant to indicate an eclipse?

(05-24-2019, 09:00 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure if this has been answered yet, but I have a question about one of the symbols in the Church of Light Egyptian tarot. There is a dual-Sun: There is the sun which looks like it’s being eclipsed by a black circle which is the same size as the sun. Is this the black sun? Or is it meant to indicate an eclipse?

I believe that you need to decide it for yourself. What does it mean to *you*? What do you think it means?

For me, the sun and the black circle represent the two paths. One is of the sunlight and the one of the darkness. Though the one of darkness is never truly dark, just eclipsed. And when the shadow is gone, the sun is shining with all of its power once again.

(12-16-2019, 01:30 AM)Ankh Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-24-2019, 09:00 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure if this has been answered yet, but I have a question about one of the symbols in the Church of Light Egyptian tarot. There is a dual-Sun: There is the sun which looks like it’s being eclipsed by a black circle which is the same size as the sun. Is this the black sun? Or is it meant to indicate an eclipse?

I believe that you need to decide it for yourself. What does it mean to *you*? What do you think it means?

For me, the sun and the black circle represent the two paths. One is of the sunlight and the one of the darkness. Though the one of darkness is never truly dark, just eclipsed. And when the shadow is gone, the sun is shining with all of its power once again.

Yes that is what I had supposed as well, that it is representing the two paths. The way you just stated it though, was wonderful, thank you!

(05-24-2019, 09:00 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure if this has been answered yet, but I have a question about one of the symbols in the Church of Light Egyptian tarot. There is a dual-Sun: There is the sun which looks like it’s being eclipsed by a black circle which is the same size as the sun. Is this the black sun? Or is it meant to indicate an eclipse?

Well, the figure is walking away from that dual-sun, so I am inclined to think it is not the two paths, or else I'd think the figure would be walking towards them.  Then it would be a choice.  But it is representative of the Great Forgetting.  The figure is leaving the sun of the Afterlife, and choosing the darkness of Separation and Earthly Incarnation.