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Shin'Ar

Having this discussion with my wife I would like to hear opinions on the matter.

My wife being catholic believes that there should be an opportunity for the 'loved ones left behind' to be able to expect something of the dying person with regards to enabling them to grieve the body once they leave it.

I had suggested that it is selfish for us to impose our grieving processes upon one who is dealing with the end of their life, and that such burdens of worrying what our loved ones will do after we leave should not be imposed upon our last moments of life.

The last thing a person should have to worry about in the dying process is how their loved ones are going to grieve their loss.

Financial security aside, what do you think about obligation to allow for and accommodate how your loved ones want to grieve for you when you leave this body?

For example, if you want to be cremated, but they want your body to be displayed for grieving, or you do not want to fight cancer, but they do not want you to die without fighting it. Is one obligated to die based upon how their loved ones want them to go, just so they can grieve according to their own ways?



Should the true nature of death be revealed I would say people would find joy in it as well. But because of the strong emotional charge attached to the end of one's life it is easy to lose footing and let the emotions decide.

If there is a belief that it is the last they will see of 'you', a need arises to see your vessel one last time.

If there is belief that it is but a transition and graduation, less fear is stirred up and celebration might occur instead.

Despite of the emotions involved, nothing is ever owned. If you are willing to serve your family through whatever way they find peace, then that is what is.

Intention is the key. A decision can be made through carefully considering the various outcomes, but you can never truly know I guess.

Cyan

I dont think that the dying has to worry about what the people around them want the dying to worry about, unless, the dying spent their life wanting others to worry about them but never had the courage. As death approaches final wishes tend to get fulfilled .If you wanted others to be around you when you die, in warmth, and in comfort, you will have that, because when you die, you'll pay too much attention to the lights, and not the people. I at least did.
I don't believe there are any "obligations" as such, except those you choose to partake of and/or impose upon yourself.

With the certainty that birth and death are merely phases in this cycles of Life, and that Life is is not limited nor delineated by the temporal span of years between birth and death, wouldn't this be reason enough to celebrate?

I understand there is a "veil" in place, and most (if not all?) of the "fear of death" resulted out of it. But it is also true that cultural systems of human society are very much rooted in fear, when it could be otherwise.

To "display a body for grieving," what do you think that is? Obligation stems out of attachment and expectation. Ultimately, all is a choice, and all are willing participants (whether they recognize it or not) in this game/school/drama. So I think there are only choices. And each does as he/she wills. You may choose to rejoice or you may choose to grieve.

The manner of your learning is up to you, really.

I can only sympathize for those that grieve in sorrow for the "departed," because from my vantage point, their suffering is could be very much alleviated.

Shin'Ar - I think that once you leave your current physical vehicle behind you won't have much impact on how your loved ones grieve for you. And my experience tells me that planning how to grieve doesn't always work - we have to explore and experience catalyst as it happens, and the deaths of loved ones has provided me with some very powerful catalysts. I think that grief is our way - on this side of the veil - of reviewing karmic ties to the one for whom we are grieving.

I think that giving consideration to the wishes of loved ones might be an excellent opportunity for a dying person to have one last "Service to Others" hurrah, if they have enought time to do that. My sister died from a pulmonary embolism. She didn't have time to do more than say, "honey, there is something wrong . . . ." to her husband. My Mom, on the other hand, actually left and came back to "finish things up" during which time she made plans for her "vehicle."

As for making plans for final handling of the physical vehicle once it's been abandoned - well, this is something that my husband and I disagree on. I want a simple cremation. But he has a strong belief that the body should be kept intact. I think, ultimately, I won't really care what happens to the physical vehicle once I've left it behind, so if he wants to put it in the ground, if that will give him comfort, then so be it. What does it really matter?

Cyan

(04-18-2012, 10:06 AM)Ruth Wrote: [ -> ]Shin'Ar - I think that once you leave your current physical vehicle behind you won't have much impact on how your loved ones grieve for you. And my experience tells me that planning how to grieve doesn't always work - we have to explore and experience catalyst as it happens, and the deaths of loved ones has provided me with some very powerful catalysts. I think that grief is our way - on this side of the veil - of reviewing karmic ties to the one for whom we are grieving.

I think that giving consideration to the wishes of loved ones might be an excellent opportunity for a dying person to have one last "Service to Others" hurrah, if they have enought time to do that. My sister died from a pulmonary embolism. She didn't have time to do more than say, "honey, there is something wrong . . . ." to her husband. My Mom, on the other hand, actually left and came back to "finish things up" during which time she made plans for her "vehicle."

As for making plans for final handling of the physical vehicle once it's been abandoned - well, this is something that my husband and I disagree on. I want a simple cremation. But he has a strong belief that the body should be kept intact. I think, ultimately, I won't really care what happens to the physical vehicle once I've left it behind, so if he wants to put it in the ground, if that will give him comfort, then so be it. What does it really matter?

I dont get burying, but I do get cryogenesis. If I was faced with the prospect of near certain death in the future (i dont think i am honestly) i would probably make arrangements for cryostatsis of my body and then spend the remaining days of my life trying to explain in as much detail my psychological, mental, and cognitive processes in an attempt to survive for as long as possible. Not that it matters I know full well the body is just a vessel for the soul but do you have any idea how good it feels to really push the limits of what a vessel can do. Some people drive around in fast cars, i dont get them, i push my body like a fast car, i push my mind and my soul to the very limits of what are possible, and beyond. I've been near death so many times that I must conclude that my show is, at least, interesting to the souls around me so i continue. Only occasionally stopping by the communcal side to refresh myself on my way out. My journey is long but my smile is wide!

Shin'Ar

I am talking more about the process of the dying person more than the aftermath.

As Ruth has pointed out the body afterwards is of no concern. But what of the person who is faced with dying and must go through a process of remaining for a few weeks or months? What is the extent of their obligation to those who love them? Do you make yourself available for their processing? Is it selfish of you if you choose to go into isolation for the least days of your life and handle the process alone in privacy?
(04-18-2012, 07:17 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]The last thing a person should have to worry about in the dying process is how their loved ones are going to grieve their loss.

Financial security aside, what do you think about obligation to allow for and accommodate how your loved ones want to grieve for you when you leave this body?

For example, if you want to be cremated, but they want your body to be displayed for grieving, or you do not want to fight cancer, but they do not want you to die without fighting it. Is one obligated to die based upon how their loved ones want them to go, just so they can grieve according to their own ways?

This is another instance where setting an example can help others to expand awareness. If you give in to others' superstitions about death, you may help them with grief, but you are also reinforcing their ignorant (in the sense of being trapped in dogma) beliefs. But if you face death with the awareness that you are part of something greater, and you are joyful at the thought of continuing on or embracing your path, you will let others see something outside of their paradigms. This is planting a seed for growth. So it is of service, greater service in my opinion, to follow your own knowing and intention as pertaining to death.





Shin'Ar

(04-18-2012, 10:48 AM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2012, 07:17 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]The last thing a person should have to worry about in the dying process is how their loved ones are going to grieve their loss.

Financial security aside, what do you think about obligation to allow for and accommodate how your loved ones want to grieve for you when you leave this body?

For example, if you want to be cremated, but they want your body to be displayed for grieving, or you do not want to fight cancer, but they do not want you to die without fighting it. Is one obligated to die based upon how their loved ones want them to go, just so they can grieve according to their own ways?

This is another instance where setting an example can help others to expand awareness. If you give in to others' superstitions about death, you may help them with grief, but you are also reinforcing their ignorant (in the sense of being trapped in dogma) beliefs. But if you face death with the awareness that you are part of something greater, and you are joyful at the thought of continuing on or embracing your path, you will let others see something outside of their paradigms. This is planting a seed for growth. So it is of service, greater service in my opinion, to follow your own knowing and intention as pertaining to death.

Absolutely Diana.

Why should one whop is enlightened about death and existence spend their final days in this form trying to appease the delusional states of those around them.
So you do realize there is no obligation unless you create it ^^ Regardless of what you do, the people grieving will understand it in 'no time' anyway as they too shall pass through the tunnel of light. Because of the complexity of human interaction it is hard to state any objective moral axioms of action. You do your part, other-selves do their. Also regardless of action, all shall be forgiven and accepted.

(04-18-2012, 10:34 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]I am talking more about the process of the dying person more than the aftermath.

As Ruth has pointed out the body afterwards is of no concern. But what of the person who is faced with dying and must go through a process of remaining for a few weeks or months? What is the extent of their obligation to those who love them? Do you make yourself available for their processing? Is it selfish of you if you choose to go into isolation for the least days of your life and handle the process alone in privacy?

I think that is a personal judgment call and really depends on many factors in the situation. For me, my calling to be of service to others doesn't end just because the end of this incarnation is imminent. I can also see that some might find it necessary to have privacy at the end so as to do internal processing. In my mind, there is no right or wrong. Only a choice.
(04-18-2012, 10:48 AM)Diana Wrote: [ -> ]This is another instance where setting an example can help others to expand awareness. If you give in to others' superstitions about death, you may help them with grief, but you are also reinforcing their ignorant (in the sense of being trapped in dogma) beliefs. But if you face death with the awareness that you are part of something greater, and you are joyful at the thought of continuing on or embracing your path, you will let others see something outside of their paradigms. This is planting a seed for growth. So it is of service, greater service in my opinion, to follow your own knowing and intention as pertaining to death.

I concur wholeheartedly. Underlying our multitude of fears is the big one: fear of death. If in the scenario Shin'Ar posits - that being that one is aware of their impending death and has a choice of how best to relate to others - *one possibility* exists to face death fearlessly, thus potentially demonstrating to others, as Diana has awesomely pointed out, that the self is greater than the physical shell which temporarily houses it.

I think a portion of our fear of death is inherited and learned. Other people fear death, our culture generally fears death, so we - being social creatures who more often than not absorb an identity derived from the value systems of others - fear death as well. Naturally.

Being in proximity to an entity about to die who is going out with a smile, even if there is physical trauma and pain, could provide a very helpful, epiphany-producing alternate model that invites greater recognition of self.

Regarding your question, Shin'Ar, I think that this particular moment in the life journey offers possibilities of service like other moments along the way, except that this moment is pregnant with more powerful opportunities that might not otherwise be available. Is it of service to set aside ones needs in the final days to tend to the needs of others? Is it of service to go completely within to reconcile ones self with ones self before the incarnation comes to a conclusion?

Don't know that there are definitive answers there. Like Ruth said, depends on a variety of factors. I can see both general avenues as being of service. Great question though!
I think we should be able to die as we wish--getting ready for that journey is important and we should honor the manner in which those leaving wish to prepare.

I also have strong beliefs about how I want my body cared for so that the various vehicles can depart completely and my experiences distilled most effectively. Obviously I cannot control what others do to my body after I appear to be gone, but I would hope that they would love me enough to honor my wishes and beliefs--even if they believed otherwise.