08-07-2012, 12:10 PM
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08-07-2012, 07:13 PM
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08-07-2012, 08:36 PM
(08-07-2012, 08:18 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Yes- those would be the ones I would place more stock in myself, seeing as how they demonstrate an understanding of basic physiology.
Agreed. Yes, a lot of them miss this basic understanding and some even mix up acidic and alkaline!
(08-07-2012, 08:18 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Right! So you know your limits of the technical knowledge.
Yup. I try to avoid discussing chemistry! I don't want to get into trouble!
(08-07-2012, 08:18 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Hrmm. According to nobelprize.org, Dr. Warburg won the prize "for his discovery of the nature and mode of action of the respiratory enzyme".
That site offers only a single sentence. Here is a more detailed explanation of his discovery:
Quote:Biochemist Otto Heinrich Warburg, one of the twentieth century's leading cell biologists, discovered that the root cause of cancer is too much acidity in the body, meaning that the pH, potential hydrogen, in the body is below the normal level of 7.365, which constitutes an “acidic” state. Warburg investigated the metabolism of tumors and the respiration of cells and discovered that cancer cells maintain and thrive in a lower pH, as low as 6.0, due to lactic acid production and elevated CO2.
He firmly believed that there was a direct relationship between pH and oxygen. Higher pH, which is Alkaline, means higher concentration of oxygen molecules, while lower pH, which is acidic, means lower concentrations of oxygen…the same oxygen that is needed to maintain healthy cells.
In 1931 he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for this important discovery. Dr. Warburg was director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (now Max Planck Institute) for cell physiology at Berlin. He investigated the metabolism of tumors and the respiration of cells, particularly cancer cells. Below are some direct quotes by Dr. Warburg during medical lectures where he was the keynote speaker.
“Cancerous tissues are acidic, whereas healthy tissues are alkaline. Water splits into H+ and OH- ions, if there is an excess of H+, it is acidic; if there is an excess of OH- ions, then it is alkaline.”
In his work The Metabolism of Tumours Warburg demonstrated that all forms of cancer are characterized by two basic conditions: acidosis and hypoxia (lack of oxygen). “Lack of oxygen and acidosis are two sides of the same coin: where you have one, you have the other.”
"All normal cells have an absolute requirement for oxygen, but cancer cells can live without oxygen - a rule without exception.“
"Deprive a cell 35% of its oxygen for 48 hours and it may become cancerous."
Dr. Warburg has made it clear that the root cause of cancer is oxygen deficiency, which creates an acidic state in the human body. Dr. Warburg also discovered that cancer cells are anaerobic (do not breathe oxygen) and cannot survive in the presence of high levels of oxygen, as found in an alkaline state.
(This is from a document so I don't have a linked source.)
(08-07-2012, 08:18 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Right. I was referring to the popular misconception.
Ah, ok.
(08-07-2012, 08:18 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Yes- according to my understanding it has to do with the "ash" or residue which is left after the food has been metabolized which needs to be eliminated.
Right. And some things, like fresh vegetable juices and alkaline water, do indeed alkalize (or, rather, to be more precise: facilitate homeostasis).
(08-07-2012, 08:18 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]I said largely hokum, and then qualified that by pointing to those who don't understand that pH varies in different fluids and tissues, yet make claims as if it is constant.
Weeeeeeell, I'd say their half-baked arguments might be hokum, but the basis in fact isn't hokum.
(08-07-2012, 08:18 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry, but I don't see an argument between us here. Sounds to me like we are on the same page. *shrug*
OK! Nothing to be sorry for; being on the same page is a good thing, methinks!
(08-07-2012, 08:18 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, that is true. In addition, the couple of studies I am aware of that showed an increase in the incidence of certain types of cancer also used synthetic forms of antioxidants. It's a perennial issue with supplement research, I'm afraid.
Yeah, very important distinction!
08-07-2012, 08:42 PM
08-07-2012, 08:47 PM
(08-07-2012, 07:08 PM)jacrob Wrote: [ -> ]synchronicity....I've been meaning to start a thread about cancer treatment.
I have an immediate family member who developed cancer about 5yrs ago. Does anyone have any direct experience of lifestyle changes that treat cancer that does not involve spiritual practices?
Yes, but due to the hostility of the mainstream medical establishment towards alternative treatments, such stories are best shared privately. I will pm you.
(08-07-2012, 08:42 PM)jacrob Wrote: [ -> ]I think this is a great place to discuss health. Look I've got a doctor and Monica (her nutritional advice strongly resonates with me) debating the issue!
LOL!
(08-07-2012, 08:42 PM)jacrob Wrote: [ -> ]My aim in putting in the request for information was to see what arose, and if anything clicked I'd do further research. I would put the onus on myself to determine what resonates rather than expect the forum to be a 'reliable' source of information.
But I do appreciate your sentiments. I'm very wary of alternative cancer treatments as there is a glut of them.
Sounds like a wise stance to have!
Neither Tenet nor I will give actual medical advice publicly, but will speak in general concepts. Hopefully some of it might be useful to you and your family member. I will say that I don't think a spiritual belief is necessary for healing, but resolving the anger might be, being that Ra stated anger can manifest as cancer. Some alternative practitioners back this up by saying resolving anger is crucial to healing.
08-07-2012, 09:34 PM
(08-07-2012, 08:36 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed. Yes, a lot of them miss this basic understanding and some even mix up acidic and alkaline!
Yeah, that's a real bummer. I've gotta say I have a difficult time understanding how somebody could claim to be so passionate about helping others improve their health, but fail to educate themselves on such basic things. How can somebody really "care" when they obviously don't care enough to not spread misinformation?
Quote:That site offers only a single sentence. Here is a more detailed explanation of his discovery:
(This is from a document so I don't have a linked source.)
I found this resource which goes into much detail.
Looks like the Nobel wasn't awarded for that specific idea you mentioned, but nevertheless was related to his work on cancer. From what I read here, his ideas were more multifaceted than just the pH of the blood, but that was indeed a factor owing to the Bohr Effect which observed that the more alkaline the blood, the higher oxygen content contained therein. One thing to keep in mind when discussing blood pH is that it is very tightly regulated between 7.35 and 7.45 (which is actually all in the alkaline range, which is why it is a misnomer to claim the blood is too "acidic"). If it goes out of that range, on either side, somebody has a serious issue going on and could die.
One of the things which always intrigued me is the presence of what are called isozymes. These are enzyme families which perform the same functions, but work optimally at slightly different pH points. For example, one set could function best at 7.38 and another at 7.42. If I am remembering correctly there are as many as seven different isozymes for certain functions in the blood. I've got a theory that what we are seeing in many cases is a depletion of an isozyme set that functions toward the lower end of the range. Now based on the Standard American Diet, most people are going to trend to the lower end of the range due to too much meat and refined carbs and not enough veggies. But, theoretically speaking, one could conjecture a similar effect if a given person is consistently trending toward the higher end of the range. I suppose that could happen if somebody was chronically protein deficient, for example.
[As a side note, earlier I was listening to a YouTube video by a guy identifying himself as "Dan the Man with the Master Plan" who is a hardcore juicer making some very odd claims. He was saying that, if anything, a reason to eat meat is to get essential fatty acids (EFAs), rather than protein. Firstly, it is totally unnecessary to eat animal products to get EFAs as they are plentiful in nuts and seeds. Secondly, with respect to protein, he was saying that bananas and grapefruit are great sources of protein?! Um.. there is about 1-3 grams of protein in a fruit. Again, nuts and seeds (along with legumes) are great vegetable sources of protein, and a person can certainly meet their protein needs by eating nuts, seeds, and legumes. Oddly, he didn't mention any of these in his message. I guess because they can't be juiced? *sigh*]
The other thing is that many cancer cells aren't in direct contact with the blood, but with an intermediary called extracellular fluid (ECF). It's quite possible that the cancer cells that alter the pH of the ECF to be more acidic, and resistant to change even if the blood pH is normal. I know that harmful gut bacteria engage in similar shenanigans.
He also talked about malfunctioning of the mitochondria- which I think is a very intriguing angle. As I was speaking about earlier, immune cells that kill cancer cells often use free radicals that have been sequestered in little sacs. The free radicals themselves "leak" out from cellular respiration processes in the mitochondria. A certain amount of this is normal, even beneficial, but too much of it can cause issues. I don't think any of this was known during his time, so this all looks like very forward thinking to me.
Incidentally, this is the basis for my concerns about pounding too much fruit juice. All that sugar entering the cells and bypassing the body's natural control mechanisms can increase the "leakage" of free radicals when the mitochondria get overwhelmed.
But again- much gets lost in the oversimplification of concepts. In this case it sounds like some folks may have plucked the pH balance part out of the equation and left the other parts behind.
Quote:(or, rather, to be more precise: facilitate homeostasis).
I like precise!
Quote:Weeeeeeell, I'd say their half-baked arguments might be hokum, but the basis in fact isn't hokum.
Oh, I totally agree. It's the oversimplification that is the problem, and the overwillingness to extend oneself beyond their boundaries of knowledge. But this issue is as much a problem among doctors as it is laypeople, albeit in different ways.
IMO- we'd all be better off sticking to the basics like "eat more vegetables" and steer clear of claims of "cure". One of the tenets of naturopathic philosophy is that the body does the healing, not the practitioner or the foods and supplements they recommend.
08-07-2012, 10:14 PM
08-07-2012, 10:51 PM
(08-07-2012, 09:34 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]One thing to keep in mind when discussing blood pH is that it is very tightly regulated between 7.35 and 7.45 (which is actually all in the alkaline range, which is why it is a misnomer to claim the blood is too "acidic"). If it goes out of that range, on either side, somebody has a serious issue going on and could die.
I'm not discussing blood pH. I'm discussing urine/saliva pH. The body steals minerals from the bones, organs and tissues in order to buffer the blood from excess acidity and keep it within that narrow range. You're right; outside that range is an extremely acute condition that could result in death. This is why the body protects the blood.
So whenever I mention pH, I'm never ever referring to blood pH, which isn't much affected by diet or water (if at all).
This is an important distinction which I encounter quite frequently with doctors, so I'm glad you brought it up. Those advocating alkalizing aren't referring to blood pH.
(08-07-2012, 09:34 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]theoretically speaking, one could conjecture a similar effect if a given person is consistently trending toward the higher end of the range. I suppose that could happen if somebody was chronically protein deficient, for example.
I suppose yes, theoretically, it could happen. The doctors I work with, who advocate drinking high amounts (1 to 1.5 gallons per day) of high alkaline water (9.5 pH) say they never see that happen. They say the person would have to drink several gallons for that to happen, which of course they aren't going to do. I personally can see a definite drop in pH if I eat something acidifying like cheese - my pH will drop 1/2 point the next morning - but bounce right back up after a couple of quarts of alkaline water. But I've never gone over 7.5, no matter how much alkaline water or fresh veggie juice I drink. Just hasn't happened.
(08-07-2012, 09:34 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ][As a side note, earlier I was listening to a YouTube video by a guy identifying himself as "Dan the Man with the Master Plan" who is a hardcore juicer making some very odd claims.
Oh I love Dan the Man!!! He's totally not scientific though but operates on spirit and intuition. But he's cool.
(08-07-2012, 09:34 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]He was saying that, if anything, a reason to eat meat is to get essential fatty acids (EFAs), rather than protein. Firstly, it is totally unnecessary to eat animal products to get EFAs as they are plentiful in nuts and seeds. Secondly, with respect to protein, he was saying that bananas and grapefruit are great sources of protein?! Um.. there is about 1-3 grams of protein in a fruit. Again, nuts and seeds (along with legumes) are great vegetable sources of protein, and a person can certainly meet their protein needs by eating nuts, seeds, and legumes. Oddly, he didn't mention any of these in his message. I guess because they can't be juiced? *sigh*
I dunno, other than to say gorillas eat enormous amounts of fruits and greens, and look how strong they are. They eat very little animal protein - mostly bugs - in the wild (though have been known to eat rodents when stressed).
I listen to Dan the Man for inspiration, but not for facts. For facts I'd go to Dr. Gabriel Cousens.
(08-07-2012, 09:34 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]The other thing is that many cancer cells aren't in direct contact with the blood, but with an intermediary called extracellular fluid (ECF). It's quite possible that the cancer cells that alter the pH of the ECF to be more acidic, and resistant to change even if the blood pH is normal. I know that harmful gut bacteria engage in similar shenanigans.
You're talking over my head here so I won't comment.
I just recently learned about aquaporins. (sp?) Do you know anything about that? I read that they allow much more water into the cell if the water's alkaline.
(08-07-2012, 09:34 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Incidentally, this is the basis for my concerns about pounding too much fruit juice. All that sugar entering the cells and bypassing the body's natural control mechanisms can increase the "leakage" of free radicals when the mitochondria get overwhelmed.
There is some controversy, even amongst the alternative practitioners advocating an alkaline diet, regarding fruit. Dr. Bernardo says 'NO fruit' to cancer patients. But I knew a woman who healed herself of breast cancer by doing only fresh fruits and veggies. She ate lots and lots of fruit and juiced it too. Then again, my friend who was on his deathbed with advanced stage throat cancer and got cancer-free after 6 months of drinking antioxidant, alkaline water, was still eating hamburgers. (shrug)
(08-07-2012, 09:34 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]But again- much gets lost in the oversimplification of concepts. In this case it sounds like some folks may have plucked the pH balance part out of the equation and left the other parts behind.
Maybe so. With diet, I think it can be very tricky. However I've seen some pretty consistent results with the water, so that seems closer to a 1-size-fits-all than diet is. But even then, of course there are no absolutes. And, there are other properties in the water besides the pH.
(08-07-2012, 09:34 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, I totally agree. It's the oversimplification that is the problem, and the overwillingness to extend oneself beyond their boundaries of knowledge. But this issue is as much a problem among doctors as it is laypeople, albeit in different ways.
IMO- we'd all be better off sticking to the basics like "eat more vegetables" and steer clear of claims of "cure". One of the tenets of naturopathic philosophy is that the body does the healing, not the practitioner or the foods and supplements they recommend.
Absolutely agreed!
Oh yeah, and here's a kicker: The insert on pH strips says that if the person gets an 8 or higher, it's actually a false positive, and should be read as 4.5!! So I wonder how many people think they're too alkaline when they're actually extremely acidic.
08-08-2012, 01:07 AM
(08-07-2012, 10:51 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]Oh I love Dan the Man!!! He's totally not scientific though but operates on spirit and intuition. But he's cool.
LOL! That is too funny... we were just having a conversation about Dan the Man and we think he is coming from "love or above". I think he could reach a larger audience if he just got a few more facts straight. But his heart is in the right place!
08-08-2012, 01:31 AM
(08-08-2012, 01:07 AM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]LOL! That is too funny... we were just having a conversation about Dan the Man and we think he is coming from "love or above". I think he could reach a larger audience if he just got a few more facts straight. But his heart is in the right place!
I agree! And if his recipes were a little less...er...tossed together. He does seem to be high on life!
08-08-2012, 02:15 AM
08-08-2012, 12:07 PM
(08-07-2012, 10:51 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not discussing blood pH. I'm discussing urine/saliva pH. The body steals minerals from the bones, organs and tissues in order to buffer the blood from excess acidity and keep it within that narrow range. You're right; outside that range is an extremely acute condition that could result in death. This is why the body protects the blood.
So whenever I mention pH, I'm never ever referring to blood pH, which isn't much affected by diet or water (if at all).
This is an important distinction which I encounter quite frequently with doctors, so I'm glad you brought it up. Those advocating alkalizing aren't referring to blood pH.
Yup. Which is why I think it is important for people to understand the nuances, even if it takes more time and effort. If somebody goes in to their MD and starts talking about "alkalinizing the blood" they are going to raise some eyebrows, and for good reason. Then, there is the fallout/backlash from conventional practitioners getting concerned about people propagating pseudoscience. Of course- most of those docs don't take the time or effort themselves to really look into the concept themselves.
I tend to focus on getting the most nutrition per calorie. I guess the closest ideology to my beliefs would be "nutritarianism" ala Dr. Joel Fuhrman. The way I look at it- if we focus on getting the most nutrition from our food then we are automatically eating more alkanizing foods, less meat, less refined foods, etc. So it is kind of like a big umbrella under which a lot of other approaches fit pretty well- yet without all of the confusion and controversy. Eat foods that are nutritious. Simple, straightforward, and not much there for the "establishment" to argue and nitpick at.
Quote:I suppose yes, theoretically, it could happen. The doctors I work with, who advocate drinking high amounts (1 to 1.5 gallons per day) of high alkaline water (9.5 pH) say they never see that happen. They say the person would have to drink several gallons for that to happen, which of course they aren't going to do. I personally can see a definite drop in pH if I eat something acidifying like cheese - my pH will drop 1/2 point the next morning - but bounce right back up after a couple of quarts of alkaline water. But I've never gone over 7.5, no matter how much alkaline water or fresh veggie juice I drink. Just hasn't happened.
Ya- I don't know what it would take for that to happen. For practical purposes, I wouldn't consider it a concern.
Say, while we're on the topic, I'm curious to know about the effects of alkaline water on the stomach pH. I know that is one of the regions that actually should be really acidic, and seeing as how the water hits it first... ? Is it a good idea to drink a bunch of alkaline water before a meal? Or...?
Quote:I dunno, other than to say gorillas eat enormous amounts of fruits and greens, and look how strong they are. They eat very little animal protein - mostly bugs - in the wild (though have been known to eat rodents when stressed).
I found this resource on seaworld.org about gorilla diets. It says an adult male gorilla can eat up to 40 pounds of vegetation a day! Of course- they weigh about twice as much as humans.
Now if a person ate 20 pounds of veggies a day- they would definitely be getting enough protein! I'm not sure how most could afford to pay for it though. Plus- that's a lotta poop!
The other thing I think is interesting here is how much diets vary for different species of gorillas. From 2 - 67% fruit. It looks like insect eating is pretty consistent though, about 2 - 3%. I dunno whether that is by weight, or by calorie though.
Quote:I listen to Dan the Man for inspiration, but not for facts. For facts I'd go to Dr. Gabriel Cousens.
I will admit, I have a hard time being inspired when the facts are befuddled. Pesky mind!
Quote:I just recently learned about aquaporins. (sp?) Do you know anything about that? I read that they allow much more water into the cell if the water's alkaline.
A bit- What I do know is they are water channels in the cell membrane, and being made of protein themselves, they are definitely affected by pH
Quote:There is some controversy, even amongst the alternative practitioners advocating an alkaline diet, regarding fruit. Dr. Bernardo says 'NO fruit' to cancer patients. But I knew a woman who healed herself of breast cancer by doing only fresh fruits and veggies. She ate lots and lots of fruit and juiced it too. Then again, my friend who was on his deathbed with advanced stage throat cancer and got cancer-free after 6 months of drinking antioxidant, alkaline water, was still eating hamburgers. (shrug)
Every body is different! It's hard to make general rules. I have heard of many people who have "miraculous" turnarounds attributed to bone broth. IMO- the common denominator is getting a lot more nutrition into the body. It's more about getting the right stuff in than getting the wrong stuff out.
I actually just got an email from a patient who has experienced a severe downturn after going back on a "healthy vegan" diet. Her skin is breaking out in pustules and her hair has started falling out! I put that in quotes, because it seemed to me she was assuming just because it was vegan, it was healthy. It sounds to me like she got taken in by the hype, and is now paying the price. This kind of thing is why I tend to get my feathers ruffled with all these laypeople spewing misinformation out on the Internet.
I never tell people they "must" eat meat. What I am concerned about is the nutrition, not so much the delivery system. But what some people don't seem to understand is that it isn't enough to simply "go vegan" we need to make sure that the body is getting the right nutrition. Iron and zinc are two nutrients in particular which come to mind.
Sesame seed is a great source of iron which I think is most easily consumed as tahini. We make fresh hummous or put it into shakes. Pumpkin seeds are an excellent source of zinc, so we try to have those around a lot. Bottom line is- people need to educate themselves about these things, which takes some time and effort.
Watching a YouTube video of a guy who is "high on life" and deciding to run off half-baked and make major changes to one's diet could turn out just fine. Or it couldn't. Which is what these folks making all these videos and websites don't seem to understand, or care about.
Quote:Oh yeah, and here's a kicker: The insert on pH strips says that if the person gets an 8 or higher, it's actually a false positive, and should be read as 4.5!! So I wonder how many people think they're too alkaline when they're actually extremely acidic.
Oh jeez!
08-09-2012, 08:37 PM
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Yup. Which is why I think it is important for people to understand the nuances, even if it takes more time and effort. If somebody goes in to their MD and starts talking about "alkalinizing the blood" they are going to raise some eyebrows, and for good reason.
Actually, I get more reactions from doctors. When I talk about pH, doctors almost always assume I'm referring to the blood pH, and I always have to clarify for them.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Then, there is the fallout/backlash from conventional practitioners getting concerned about people propagating pseudoscience. Of course- most of those docs don't take the time or effort themselves to really look into the concept themselves.
Very true. I've had a few MDs who did, though, and were very impressed with the research. And I know one MD who is currently doing cancer research regarding alkalizing the body. So they are, apparently, starting to notice the results the alternative practitioners are getting.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]I tend to focus on getting the most nutrition per calorie. I guess the closest ideology to my beliefs would be "nutritarianism" ala Dr. Joel Fuhrman.
I hadn't heard of him before but I just glanced at his website.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]The way I look at it- if we focus on getting the most nutrition from our food then we are automatically eating more alkanizing foods, less meat, less refined foods, etc.
Well that sounds like a good plan!
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]So it is kind of like a big umbrella under which a lot of other approaches fit pretty well- yet without all of the confusion and controversy. Eat foods that are nutritious. Simple, straightforward, and not much there for the "establishment" to argue and nitpick at.
Ah, if only everyone could agree on which foods are nutritious! Especially when absorption/assimilation come into play. Milk is a prime example of a food commonly thought of as nutritious but many in the alternative health community would disagree.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Ya- I don't know what it would take for that to happen. For practical purposes, I wouldn't consider it a concern.
Agreed!
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Say, while we're on the topic, I'm curious to know about the effects of alkaline water on the stomach pH. I know that is one of the regions that actually should be really acidic, and seeing as how the water hits it first... ? Is it a good idea to drink a bunch of alkaline water before a meal? Or...?
That's a very good question and one that I get asked a lot. First, it's important to note that water can be alkalized in different ways. For example, just adding baking soda to tap water will raise the pH about a point or so. Such water may indeed adversely affect stomach acids; I really don't know.
The water I am familiar with isn't just alkaline. It has other properties as well. It's electrically charged, meaning it has extra electrons that neutralize free radicals. (Baking soda water will have a positive charge; thus oxidizing.) It has free hydrogen. And, its molecular structure has been micro-clustered. (There are research studies on this property alone.) This means it has reduced surface tension and is better able to penetrate the cells. The medical term for such water is Electrolyzed Reduced Water, or ERW.
Our medical adviser, one of the top 10 MDs in the world, explains that when we drink ERW, most of it is absorbed in the esophagus! So it doesn't even hit the stomach (contrary to popular belief).
I can send a link to a short video of him explaining this, to anyone who's interested. Just send me a pm.
One of my doctors also explained this ERW helps heal the stomach lining, thus balancing the stomach's naturally acidic pH. He also explained that the stomach isn't producing copious amounts of acid at all times, but only when needed.
My personal experience is that drinking ERW has dramatically improved my digestion. I never worry about drinking it with meals, though I generally drink more of it before the meal rather than with the meal. In fact, I routinely offer a challenge to people: Try drinking a pint of tap, bottled, filtered or RO water 5 minutes before a meal, then eat. Ugh!!! B-L-O-A-T-E-D.
But do the same thing with ERW and guess what! No bloating!
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]I found this resource on seaworld.org about gorilla diets. It says an adult male gorilla can eat up to 40 pounds of vegetation a day! Of course- they weigh about twice as much as humans.
Now if a person ate 20 pounds of veggies a day- they would definitely be getting enough protein!
Thank you! One of the raw vegan gurus, Victoria Boutenko, popularized the idea of 'green smoothies' as a way for humans to more closely simulate the gorilla diet. There's just no other way to get enough greens otherwise! Gorillas chew on leaves all day long! Who wants to do that!
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure how most could afford to pay for it though. Plus- that's a lotta poop!
Better than to poop a lot than too little!
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]The other thing I think is interesting here is how much diets vary for different species of gorillas. From 2 - 67% fruit.
Oh I didn't know that; very interesting! It seems to vary a lot depending on their environment too, and whether they're wild or in captivity.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]I will admit, I have a hard time being inspired when the facts are befuddled. Pesky mind!
My husband doesn't like Dan the Man either. He wonders why I do.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]It's more about getting the right stuff in than getting the wrong stuff out.
Well if you get the right stuff in, the body will automatically get the wrong stuff out.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]It sounds to me like she got taken in by the hype, and is now paying the price. This kind of thing is why I tend to get my feathers ruffled with all these laypeople spewing misinformation out on the Internet.
Well it could be any number of things. As we both know, correlation isn't always causation, though sometimes it is. I could have been the poster child for a failed vegan diet, and yet my problems had nothing to do with being vegan. (I found this out after going back to meat and it didn't help.) So many possible factors...and the person doesn't always tell us everything.
Just today, a lady was telling me she wasn't noticing any benefits from the water. I was puzzled, because usually, virtually everyone notices some benefits. This lady kept insisting she was drinking the recommended amount. I kept asking questions in the hope of uncovering a hidden soda habit or something, but everything kept checking out.
Then, finally, after several conversations, it came out that she wasn't drinking water...she was making tea with the water! In her mind, it was the same thing, but of course it isn't at all. So often, the person leaves out a very important detail. I used to marvel back when I tried to sell health insurance (I say "tried" because I was awful at it) and people would tell me they were "very healthy" then when I saw them, it turned out they were obese and diabetic. Or they'd say they didn't take any meds but when we did the list, it turned out they were taking about 6-8 OTC meds on a regular basis!
I'm not saying this particular woman's problems weren't from diet. I agree that just going vegan doesn't make the diet healthy! Not by a long shot! I'm not even totally vegan myself, though mostly, and I make sure to cover all the bases with superfoods, supplemental B12, etc. Even eating healthy foods doesn't cut it anymore because the foods don't have the same nutritional profiles they once did, due to depleted soils and chemical farming.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]But what some people don't seem to understand is that it isn't enough to simply "go vegan" we need to make sure that the body is getting the right nutrition.
Agreed! (I think I just said the same thing!
)(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Iron and zinc are two nutrients in particular which come to mind.
Iron I understand, but why zinc? I never thought much about zinc. I know it's found in nuts and seeds, especially pumpkin seeds, but I admit I don't eat pumpkin seeds much.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Sesame seed is a great source of iron which I think is most easily consumed as tahini.
Tahini is a staple at our house.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]people need to educate themselves about these things, which takes some time and effort.
Agreed! But the same could be said whether they eat meat or not. Vegans just have different problems due to lack of education than meat-eaters do.
(08-08-2012, 12:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Watching a YouTube video of a guy who is "high on life" and deciding to run off half-baked and make major changes to one's diet could turn out just fine. Or it couldn't. Which is what these folks making all these videos and websites don't seem to understand, or care about.
I agree! I can enjoy Dan the Man because I don't take him too seriously. But there are a lot of people out there making videos that are considered authoritative. The Patanaudes come to mind...I disagree with them quite a lot and have protested on their blogs whenever they spout stuff that I think is inaccurate, and it's obvious to me they hadn't done their homework on that topic.
08-10-2012, 11:25 AM
08-10-2012, 11:51 AM
08-10-2012, 12:45 PM
08-11-2012, 07:07 PM
(08-10-2012, 12:45 PM)oguz Wrote: [ -> ]as nutrition i can say there is a solution:
ceasing consumption of sugar, red meat, alcohol and protein as these foods feed cancer cells. Also consuming ORAC may help .
I once knew a fruitarian that got stomach cancer. Go figure.
(08-09-2012, 08:37 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]Ah, if only everyone could agree on which foods are nutritious! Especially when absorption/assimilation come into play. Milk is a prime example of a food commonly thought of as nutritious but many in the alternative health community would disagree.
Ya, that's true. But generally speaking, determining the concentration of nutrients per calorie is pretty straightforward. Could be a place to start.
Quote:Our medical adviser, one of the top 10 MDs in the world, explains that when we drink ERW, most of it is absorbed in the esophagus! So it doesn't even hit the stomach (contrary to popular belief).
Interesting. I've always wondered that about many herbal tinctures- especially those which are supposed to work on the digestive tract. Seems like it would be absorbed before it even hits the stomach.
Quote:I can send a link to a short video of him explaining this, to anyone who's interested. Just send me a pm.
Thanks!
Quote:Thank you! One of the raw vegan gurus, Victoria Boutenko, popularized the idea of 'green smoothies' as a way for humans to more closely simulate the gorilla diet. There's just no other way to get enough greens otherwise! Gorillas chew on leaves all day long! Who wants to do that!
Apparently, gorillas do!
Quote:Better than to poop a lot than too little!
LOL! True enough.
Quote:Oh I didn't know that; very interesting! It seems to vary a lot depending on their environment too, and whether they're wild or in captivity.
Just like humans!!
Quote:Well if you get the right stuff in, the body will automatically get the wrong stuff out.
YESSSSS! And as a convenient side-note you get to avoid all the difficulties associated with trying to change behavior based on a negative.
Quote:Then, finally, after several conversations, it came out that she wasn't drinking water...she was making tea with the water! In her mind, it was the same thing, but of course it isn't at all. So often, the person leaves out a very important detail. I used to marvel back when I tried to sell health insurance (I say "tried" because I was awful at it) and people would tell me they were "very healthy" then when I saw them, it turned out they were obese and diabetic. Or they'd say they didn't take any meds but when we did the list, it turned out they were taking about 6-8 OTC meds on a regular basis!
While I was in clinical training, we had an obese diabetic patient who was not progressing at all. Turns out she neglected to mention she was eating a half gallon of ice cream a day!
Quote:Iron I understand, but why zinc? I never thought much about zinc. I know it's found in nuts and seeds, especially pumpkin seeds, but I admit I don't eat pumpkin seeds much.
Oh ya! Check zinc out- it does so many essential things! Here is a resource to get started.
Quote:Tahini is a staple at our house.
The folks at the Mediterranean store down the street keep thinking we are Arabic because of all the tahini we buy!
Quote:Agreed! But the same could be said whether they eat meat or not. Vegans just have different problems due to lack of education than meat-eaters do.
True. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I just can't figure out how somebody can be so passionate about something, yet not see the value in making the time and effort to educate themselves and get the facts straight.
08-12-2012, 12:25 AM
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]I once knew a fruitarian that got stomach cancer. Go figure.
What kind of water did s/he drink?
The wife of one of the raw vegan gurus died of colon cancer a few years ago. The guru said she had been abused as a child and had come a long way but...apparently still had issues.
Diet isn't a guarantee. Especially in light of what we know from Ra about anger and cancer. And that was just an example. Might there be other negative emotions that manifest as cancer too?
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Ya, that's true. But generally speaking, determining the concentration of nutrients per calorie is pretty straightforward. Could be a place to start.
I'd say assimilation is more important. A food could be very nutrient-dense, but if the person isn't able to assimilate it (for whatever reason) then it's worse than worthless: might actually be detrimental.
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting. I've always wondered that about many herbal tinctures- especially those which are supposed to work on the digestive tract. Seems like it would be absorbed before it even hits the stomach.
Very likely true, though perhaps for a different reason.
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:I can send a link to a short video of him explaining this, to anyone who's interested. Just send me a pm.
Thanks!
You are quite welcome. I can arrange for you to talk to him, by the way, if you are ever interested. (if so, pm me) He's very generous with his time and knowledge.
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Apparently, gorillas do!
Haha, exactly! And it seems to have paid off! They are rather strong! No one would ask a gorilla whether they get enough protein!
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:Better than to poop a lot than too little!
LOL! True enough.
So nice to agree!
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Just like humans!!
Exactly! Humans are sort of in captivity, with the veil and all. Makes sense.
I read some vegetarian Christian stuff once that made a grand case for humans eating meat "after the fall" and 'God frowning upon them when they rejected manna in the desert and lusted after flesh instead.'
I don't care for the Bible much but I thought it was rather interesting, that they were able to build their case biblically.
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:Well if you get the right stuff in, the body will automatically get the wrong stuff out.
YESSSSS! And as a convenient side-note you get to avoid all the difficulties associated with trying to change behavior based on a negative.
Huh? sorry, don't follow you. Elaborate please? By "negative" do you mean "don't eat xyz food" ?
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]While I was in clinical training, we had an obese diabetic patient who was not progressing at all. Turns out she neglected to mention she was eating a half gallon of ice cream a day!
Yikes!!!
Oh, and I forgot to mention, this person who was drinking tea...she also forgot to mention that she smoked!!!
I was about to go get my machine back, but then it was revealed that she 'only' smoked 'natural' cigs - the 'organic' ones. Hmmm...that does explain why I didn't get a headache when I was in her house, though I did smell smoke residue. (I normally get a raging headache after being exposed to cigarette smoke...some smokers reek so strongly I'll get a headache just being around them even if they don't smoke around me.)
So I'm not quite sure...are 'organic' cigs toxic too?
I normally won't even give water to a smoker, because they are soooo toxic it's asking too much to expect the water to do them any good. I made an exception in this case because the cigs were 'organic' but it remains to be seen...
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Oh ya! Check zinc out- it does so many essential things! Here is a resource to get started.
Thanks! But what I really mean is, why is zinc likely to be missing in a veg diet?
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]The folks at the Mediterranean store down the street keep thinking we are Arabic because of all the tahini we buy!
LOL!
Did you know they have a raw tahini? It's not as creamy and has a stronger flavor. I try to do raw as much as possible, but I haven't decided yet on this...
(08-11-2012, 07:07 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]True. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I just can't figure out how somebody can be so passionate about something, yet not see the value in making the time and effort to educate themselves and get the facts straight.
I agree with you there! As strongly as I feel about protecting the animals, I wasn't willing to jeopardize my child's health over it. So I chose to 'err on the side of caution' when raising a vegetarian child. I did my due diligence! I agree totally that it's irresponsible to go off half-cocked on any diet, especially where children are concerned!
(But then, most people don't pay much attention to diet anyway...so raising a child vegan without adequate B12 is probably the equivalent to raising a child on McDonald's and sodas...it's a tossup really!)
08-16-2012, 12:53 PM
08-22-2012, 12:32 AM