Bring4th

When asked about whether or not deceased loved ones are able to return to us in spirit Quo stated :

The puzzle of personality is that puzzle where pieces keep trying to fit together and after incarnation after incarnation is experienced each entity in relationship finds the fit a bit better and a bit better. And as entities move in and out of illusion they can, when out of the illusion, have far greater appreciation of the healing and healthful aspects of a given relationship and find transformative healing within appreciation of the living entity that is within incarnation seen from that broader context.

Indeed, for a person to heal from incarnation there is the self to be forgiven. And each relationship is gazed upon. The surprises involved in this gaze from larger life are many. And we would simply say that in most cases where there is that intuition of presence the source of that intuition is not the self in [the] personality shell of incarnation but the other self that is in relationship and that is relating from larger life as a part of its healing.

So in a way that entity that is you is a healing presence to this entity as it is in larger life reviewing the incarnation that has been and gazing at the self to see what perhaps shall be the next choices of incarnation, of personality shell, of mission, of purpose.

END QUOTE


First of all I note that this information is flagged for editing and further updating on the website.

Given that, I would like to ask if anyone in authority of this editing process can tell me what effort is made to avoid editing under bias.

We all know how that can affect the true information being shared.

Having said that, Quo is clearly stating here that what we perceive as our loved ones coming to us from the dead is NOT that actual identity that we knew in this life.

It is not our dearly departed in such a way that what is now visiting is that same identity.

It is rather the field of consciousness which used that shell to experience that temporary illusion. That field of consciousness has had many identities and lifetimes, and has left behind many so called loved ones from many different family ties.

Between its incarnations the field/flame/consciousness does not return to visit us as that deceased identity we knew. Rather it connects to our own feelings and memories of that one they knew, in an effort to review its connection/experience in that form.

In other words that field of consciousness, as it heals in the between state, does not return as the previous identity, nor do we intuitively experience the presence of that field. What we experience is our own memories of that one in such a way that in remembering that loved one, we establish a connection with the field as it reviews itself.

That connection is not with the loved one that we remember, but rather with the field of consciousness that used that form, and that connection is not so much you and it, but you and its healing process of review.

This undoubtedly disagrees with many who say that their loved one returns to guide them or to watch over them. Or to those who say that the deceased return in that identity to haunt or to follow those they once interacted with.

What are your thoughts on the dead returning to us?

I'd imagine there is a point before "healing", where the (disembodied) loved one could return (mainly to the time/space present) in some conscious capacity to communicate a message directly. Further, if the deceased individual had already 'graduated' 3D, there would be a clearer map and more consciousness present with which to devote to such an attempt.

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BTW, this should go into Q'uo channeling sub-forum.

(09-23-2012, 09:14 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]This undoubtedly disagrees with many who say that their loved one returns to guide them or to watch over them. Or to those who say that the deceased return in that identity to haunt or to follow those they once interacted with.

What are your thoughts on the dead returning to us?

First of all, from my perspective there are no "dead." I see no distinction between "living" and "dead." There are only living fields of consciousness, as you would put it, that are either incarnated or discarnated (i.e. "born" in space/time or "dead" in time/space—yet both of them are alive).

Now, the time/space metaphysical environment functions under a different set of parameters than its space/time physical reality counterpart. Because of the inherent limitations of a 3rd density experience (and largely because of the veil in 3D space/time), the nature of reality and the mechanisms behind it will naturally be difficult to grasp and make sense of (as Ra said, 3D is not the density of understanding—and it really isn't). Therefore, I may only offer my current perspective on this (limited as it may be):

The "ghost" phenomenon is simply a sort of residual self-image, or gestalt, projected by the now discarnate entity from time/space in the image of its prior incarnate existence in space/time. This thought-form is created out of mental/emotional attachment to the most recent physical form. Contrary to popular belief, the 3D discarnate entity is not suddenly aware of the oneness and love of the Creator; the thoughts, biases and distortions, as well as the level of awareness and degree of spiritual development of the entity, will still be present in (and largely affect the) time/space experience. A 3D discarnate entity is still a 3D entity.

Thus, the great majority of "ghost hauntings" (if not all) are examples of earthly attachments and inability/unwillingness to move on and/or accept the "death" of its physicality (sometimes the discarnate entity is not even aware it is actually "dead"). This is, of course, only temporal.

The "ghost" itself (just as you in your physical form now) are not really your true "identity." Whether in space/time or time/space, each personality shell or construct is but a manifestation/projection/extension of your higher/inner selfness, which we could call an "oversoul." This oversoul has various simultaneous manifestations/projections/extensions of yourself across the densities (which obviously means that some of those projections are fauna/flora 2D entities too). Yet all of these, in sequential progression of evolutionary development, lead back to their/its oversoul. In this sense, the oversoul harvests all the experience in a cumulative thought-focus process.

As for the "dead" returning to visit the "living," this is entirely possible and does occur. However, what must be understood, once again, is that time/space functions quite differently than 3D space/time, thus many of these things are somewhat difficult to process from a 3D space/time perspective (heavily veiled, no less):

For example, the recently "deceased" can visit its family after its death. This will of course depend (and be filtered by) both the receptivity and perceptual awareness of the "living" as well as the conscious capacities of the newly "dead." In this case the contact would occur in a more or less a "real-time" fashion for both the "living" contactee and the discarnate entity.

In other cases, the "living" will yearn so much to contact its "dearly departed" that through a mental projection may create/invoke a thought-form in the image of the "beloved dead" imbued by the energy/consciousness/memory of said discarnate entity, even though this entity may have already left the time/space plane and may now be residing within another physical body in space/time.

In another case, a 3D incarnate entity may contact/summon/invoke some old, ancient discarnate being that lived over 2,000 years ago. This is the case with some magic practitioners, or spiritual seekers/adepts. Think of your friend Thoth, for example. What is being contacted/summoned/invoked, however, is the personality shell/construct associated to that particular "lifetime" of the entity. But you and I know, Shin'Ar, that Thoth is but a manifestation/projection/extension of an a greater oversoul [who knows, maybe you are part of that oversoul—hence your strong ties with Thoth—, and in that sense, you are Thoth; or rather, Thoth is part of your overall personality, or inner/higher selfness].

To clarify this example, let's say I contact/invoke Genghis Khan to lend me some negative wisdom associated to his particular lifetime. Mr. Khan may very well manifest through time/space to yield me some practical knowledge, even though Mr. Khan is—last I checked—a 4th density shipping clerk for the Orion Empire. How is this possible? This is possible because of the trans-temporal nature of time/space.

And yet in other instances, much of the "living-dead" communications and visitations are being handled by a 6D oversoul, or "magic personality" (either your own, or one connected to the "dead" entity in question).

Hope this wasn't too convoluted.

(09-23-2012, 01:16 PM)Siren Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-23-2012, 09:14 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]This undoubtedly disagrees with many who say that their loved one returns to guide them or to watch over them. Or to those who say that the deceased return in that identity to haunt or to follow those they once interacted with.

What are your thoughts on the dead returning to us?

First of all, from my perspective there are no "dead." I see no distinction between "living" and "dead." There are only living fields of consciousness, as you would put it, that are either incarnated or discarnated (i.e. "born" in space/time or "dead" in time/space—yet both of them are alive).

Now, the time/space metaphysical environment functions under a different set of parameters than its space/time physical reality counterpart. Because of the inherent limitations of a 3rd density experience (and largely because of the veil in 3D space/time), the nature of reality and the mechanisms behind it will naturally be difficult to grasp and make sense of (as Ra said, 3D is not the density of understanding—and it really isn't). Therefore, I may only offer my current perspective on this (limited as it may be):

The "ghost" phenomenon is simply a sort of residual self-image, or gestalt, projected by the now discarnate entity from time/space in the image of its prior incarnate existence in space/time. This thought-form is created out of mental/emotional attachment to the most recent physical form. Contrary to popular belief, the 3D discarnate entity is not suddenly aware of the oneness and love of the Creator; the thoughts, biases and distortions, as well as the level of awareness and degree of spiritual development of the entity, will still be present in (and largely affect the) time/space experience. A 3D discarnate entity is still a 3D entity.

Thus, the great majority of "ghost hauntings" (if not all) are examples of earthly attachments and inability/unwillingness to move on and/or accept the "death" of its physicality (sometimes the discarnate entity is not even aware it is actually "dead"). This is, of course, only temporal.

The "ghost" itself (just as you in your physical form now) are not really your true "identity." Whether in space/time or time/space, each personality shell or construct is but a manifestation/projection/extension of your higher/inner selfness, which we could call an "oversoul." This oversoul has various simultaneous manifestations/projections/extensions of yourself across the densities (which obviously means that some of those projections are fauna/flora 2D entities too). Yet all of these, in sequential progression of evolutionary development, lead back to their/its oversoul. In this sense, the oversoul harvests all the experience in a cumulative thought-focus process.

As for the "dead" returning to visit the "living," this is entirely possible and does occur. However, what must be understood, once again, is that time/space functions quite differently than 3D space/time, thus many of these things are somewhat difficult to process from a 3D space/time perspective (heavily veiled, no less):

For example, the recently "deceased" can visit its family after its death. This will of course depend (and be filtered by) both the receptivity and perceptual awareness of the "living" as well as the conscious capacities of the newly "dead." In this case the contact would occur in a more or less a "real-time" fashion for both the "living" contactee and the discarnate entity.

In other cases, the "living" will yearn so much to contact its "dearly departed" that through a mental projection may create/invoke a thought-form in the image of the "beloved dead" imbued by the energy/consciousness/memory of said discarnate entity, even though this entity may have already left the time/space plane and may now be residing within another physical body in space/time.

In another case, a 3D incarnate entity may contact/summon/invoke some old, ancient discarnate being that lived over 2,000 years ago. This is the case with some magic practitioners, or spiritual seekers/adepts. Think of your friend Thoth, for example. What is being contacted/summoned/invoked, however, is the personality shell/construct associated to that particular "lifetime" of the entity. But you and I know, Shin'Ar, that Thoth is but a manifestation/projection/extension of an a greater oversoul [who knows, maybe you are part of that oversoul—hence your strong ties with Thoth—, and in that sense, you are Thoth; or rather, Thoth is part of your overall personality, or inner/higher selfness].

To clarify this example, let's say I contact/invoke Genghis Khan to lend me some negative wisdom associated to his particular lifetime. Mr. Khan may very well manifest through time/space to yield me some practical knowledge, even though Mr. Khan is—last I checked—a 4th density shipping clerk for the Orion Empire. How is this possible? This is possible because of the trans-temporal nature of time/space.

And yet in other instances, much of the "living-dead" communications and visitations are being handled by a 6D oversoul, or "magic personality" (either your own, or one connected to the "dead" entity in question).

Hope this wasn't too convoluted.

On one hand you suggest that the dead return to visit their loved ones, and on what evidence you base that I do not know,and yet, on the other hand you state that there is no death, and then, if you had yet another hand, and of that I admit that I also do not know, you declare that the disincarnate is naught but a 'personality shell/construct'.

I am glad that you have no more hands on which to count your many variations of what is.

Yes, my dear Siren, we do both know.

But your temporary identity still struggles with the reality of your 'personality shell/construct'. And you seem confident until one reads your words and sees the confusion and contradiction.

This is not meant as an insult for we all seek to discern our thought processes and make sense of our speculations in the quest for truth and knowledge. I simply remind you of that.

Now, death is very real. You will meet it quite intimately one day.

But this is the death of the temporary vehicle only. Nevertheless, in that experience, it is the certain death and final experience of that identity.

In the Inbetween that identity does not continue to exist as some immortal entity. And it shall certainly not return to existence as that identity. That which was is memory, and survives only as stored memory in the fields with which it connected.

Memory cannot return except in the minds of those that contain it.

What age and evolved degree that field, or as you call it, that 'personality shell/construct', had acquired through the course of its existence in this universe does not matter to those that connected with it as its last incarnation, or those which had ever connected with it as any of it previous identities. They knew only that it was someone they knew as a specific identity, which is now nothing more than a memory. They did not know it as a field of consciousness. A field of consciousness does not exist as a field of consciousness, it exists as memory in the stored consciousness of others. Its true form is a 'flame being' which experiences many forms of being, always returning to its eternal form of fire inbetween each material form.

Identity is only meaningful to those who remember it; those who have that experience stored in their field of consciousness.

To the field that experienced that incarnation and identity, now that it is ended, is no more than waste material and dust of the earth. That field now realizes that the identity it had then, was no more than a vehicle with which to drive through a particular journey of lessons and further development. And it now knows the next identity will be the same.

But it only knows this in the inbetween state of being. Once reincarnated, the new identity becomes veiled once more, only this time having the experience from past lessons learned which it did not have prior.

Each vehicle is another opportunity to discover that our true being does not really require a vehicle at all.

And in between vehicles we know this.

That knowledge gives the field no reason to intercede or return to any remnant of its past vehicle. All that it needs to do is discern that life and its lessons to prepare for the next vehicle, unless it has reached the state of awareness and being where it no longer requires being reincarnated in human form.

What purpose would there be in interfering with the lessons of others in a design and process in which your own field has been, and is going through?

Why would it don the facade of an old vehicle for the sake of entertaining the experiences of others who are caught up in exactly the same process?

The Lord Thoth is what I call that field which once bore that identity. In communication we who are incarnate, may honor those who we choose, and acknowledge any of their past vehicles, especially if a particular vehicle was responsible for enhancing or revealing certain experiences which correlate with your own path and experience.

It does not mean that such a Field of Consciousness continues to return or communicate as that past vehicle or identity. It simply means that It acknowledges my desire to honor that particular experience which it had and the legacy it left behind.

It is Thoth, just as it is many other names. But I do not call it by all the names it has ever known, for I call to it as Thoth.

And it does not exist in the future of Shin'Ar. It exists now.

But it does not exist now as Thoth, except in my memory, in my desire to recall that memory, and in my desire to connect with that present field of consciousness as a name and experience that it once bore.

Should my field return again to those who might know my field as Shin'Ar, it will not be as Shin'Ar, it will be as their memory of Shin'Ar, should they choose to recall me by that name.

This is what Ra is saying here my friend. And what I believe you are trying to say as well. But you fight your memories and experience for the sake of your temporary desires. Your desire to create truth is greater than your desire to discover it.

What ability or opportunity that one might have in the Inbetween is not known to us in our temporary form of being. It is all speculation. To some it is speculation based upon various thought processes that may not involve true seeking, but rather their need to be recognized as wise. To others it is speculation based upon much effort to learn and gather information from various sources.

None can declare that they have solved the Mystery.

But we can speak with some degree of wisdom if what we say is supported by many sources, rather than ego alone.

It is this same ego which sees the ghost before them as their loved one returned to them from the dead. It is their own memory and desire to reunite. It is the power and energy of the memory of that field which has moved on, and yet continues to remain connected to their own field in ways beyond anything the fragment can comprehend.

These are our ghosts. Powerful connections between fields which continue to resonate like a song will linger in the wind long after the minstrel is gone.

Those who understand these fields will know where their old friends really are. And they will know that those identities now exist as a beings very different than the one they once knew.

Those who understand will have no reason to think of ghosts and expect old vehicles to return.

Those who continue to struggle with their own ego, will also struggle over the identity of others.

Identity does not return. Memory will.

(09-23-2012, 04:26 PM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]On one hand you suggest that the dead return to visit their loved ones, and on what evidence you base that I do not know,

The "dead" do not necessarily need to return to visit anyone; however, they may do so.

(The evidence is nothing but direct, empirical experience. And on that note: none of these have been "ghosts" of my relatives, but random, unknown 3rd-density "dead dudes." I was never interested in them for them to pay me a visit. They simply appear to be lost and stranded, and I just simply happen to be there.)

Quote:and yet, on the other hand you state that there is no death,

Let's define death as: the cessation of viability of the physical body. In this sense, yes there is death, and there is plenty of death! One is born and dies multiple times, hundreds, thousands of times. It is simply the phasing in and phasing out from space/time to time/space. Why would it matter anyway? Why not count every rebirth as well? I always found it most curious how people place so much emphasis on "death."

Quote:and then, if you had yet another hand, and of that I admit that I also do not know, you declare that the disincarnate is naught but a 'personality shell/construct'.

Yes, the discarnate is as much a personality shell/construct as the incarnate.

Quote:I am glad that you have no more hands on which to count your many variations of what is.

You amuse me, Shin'Ar. Maybe I can use my fingers?

Quote:But your temporary identity still struggles with the reality of your 'personality shell/construct'.

I wouldn't consider it as struggle, but a challenge/catalyst/opportunity—one which I am more than perfectly fine with; after all, I chose it. I—that is, the one behind the name and the face and the image of the one who goes by the name of R. Kallisti here in this incarnation—am using this personality construct as a public figure and stage persona, if you will, to walk among a 3rd-density population. In this sense, I have totally become a 3rd-density entity.

Quote:And you seem confident until one reads your words and sees the confusion and contradiction.

I propose we leave my confusion and contradiction to the discernment of each reader.

Quote:This is not meant as an insult for we all seek to discern our thought processes and make sense of our speculations in the quest for truth and knowledge. I simply remind you of that.

And I appreciate it. The feeling is mutual.

Quote:Now, death is very real. You will meet it quite intimately one day.

I already have.

Quote:But this is the death of the temporary vehicle only.

Precisely.

Quote:Nevertheless, in that experience, it is the certain death and final experience of that identity.

Here we must differ. Perhaps we fall within the confines of semantics once again, but "identity" does not cease. Do you really suppose, Shin'Ar, that at the end of your present incarnation "you" will cease to be? My friend, this "you" that you are now will very much remain as the energy signature that characterizes you; "you", with all your harvested experience will remain, and more shall be added unto you even; or rather, this experience/memory of "you" shall be added to that infinitely rich, varied and unique resource of living memory-consciousness that is your "oversoul."

Nothing is lost, not even the tiniest speck of dust.

Quote:In the Inbetween that identity does not continue to exist as some immortal entity. And it shall certainly not return to existence as that identity. That which was is memory, and survives only as stored memory in the fields with which it connected.

Perhaps I do begin to grasp what you are attempting to convey. If I understand you correctly, I would agree 100% with you on this. Let's just take a Russian 44-year-old female surgeon as an example. Let's call her Dr. Lukyanova. Let's quickly trace her life in our imagination, from birth to child to adolescent to adult to present moment. A typical life, with nothing exceptionally outstanding: non-professing Catholic, somewhat agnostic, married at the age of 24 and had 3 children. An average middle-class life of relative comfort and good financial stability. She dies tonight.

It is her "identity," as the personality construct that she is, that passes on to the "afterlife" in time/space. Reviewing her most recent incarnation with the aid of guides and her higher-self's assistance (which is actually her truer selfness), she learns/remembers the purpose of life again. She prepares for a new incarnation and passes once more through the 3rd-density veil of forgetfulness. Now, of course her "identity" as 44-year-old surgeon Dr. Lukyanova will not return to existence as that particular personality construct! Of course not. She might be born now in 1964 as a poor homeless man in New York by the name of Christopher Adams. And the show goes on.

You could say that incarnational memory is stored in that electromagnetic field of consciousness that is the higher-inner self beingness totality of an entity (the 6D oversoul, if you will). Of course the "incarnational identity" is not a permanent, immortal entity! It's just an experience to be collected as memory.

Quote:To the field that experienced that incarnation and identity, now that it is ended, is no more than waste material and dust of the earth. That field now realizes that the identity it had then, was no more than a vehicle with which to drive through a particular journey of lessons and further development. And it now knows the next identity will be the same.

I largely agree with your statement. However, the only thing I would suggest for your consideration is that after death, a 3rd-density entity remains a 3rd-density entity in a metaphysical environment. This is perhaps overlooked by you. The self-realization of oneself is a gradual process that requires millions of incarnative experiences beginning in 1D/2D, as the prime elements subsequently spawning/transforming/evolving into the 2nd-density flora/fauna organisms leading to the 3rd-density life-form experience (and then the 4th and the 5th and so on).

Or would you tell me that when a monkey dies it immediately realizes it is an amazing field of consciousness of infinite worth playing an evolutionary game of experiencing itself? No, it is largely unaware of this, and its incarnations are programmed by the oversoul that oversees it (which the monkey does not even know it has—and cannot be aware of with a 2nd-density level of awareness). The same applies to a 3rd-density entity until it begins to play the game consciously and in tandem with its higher/inner oversoul beingness. This realization, however, is not immediate, and it comes only after a certain level of development has been achieved within the 3rd-density experience; as such, the conscious participation in the reincarnation process is a natural result of a the achievement of a certain degree of advancement pertaining that particular entity which is a manifestation/projection/extension of a greater oversoul/field of consciousness.

Also, to say the incarnation is no more than waste material and dust of the earth is the same as saying that the very light and energy/love involved and invested in the creative process of the 3rd-density physical environment is also a waste.

Quote:Each vehicle is another opportunity to discover that our true being does not really require a vehicle at all.

And in between vehicles we know this.

I disagree and partially agree with this.

Firstly, my humble disagreement. Without a vehicular physical body, evolution—and hence experience—is not possible. This is why a type of physical body is required through each density.

Actually, I remember Ra talking about this. Let me fetch the quote...

Quote:Each mind/body/spirit or mind/body/spirit complex has an existence simultaneous with that of creation. It is not dependent upon any physical vehicle. However, in order to evolve, change, learn, and manifest the Creator the physical vehicles appropriate to each density are necessary. Your query implied that physical vehicles accelerated growth. The more accurate description is that they permit growth.

Although I agree with you that consciousness itself does not depend on physicality, materiality or any form of manifestation, without bodies we cannot experience evolution, change, growth, or any measurement of development or experience of progression.

In between vehicles, as you say, we do know (to the extent that our personal evolutionary development allows, or is capable of, truly understanding it) that we are not the physical shell, the material form; yes, but we also learn/remember we are playing this game. And in order to continue our progression, balance and refine ourselves, we must continue reincarnating. It is truly a wonderful experience!

(I still do not seem to understand the reasons why you undervalue physicality so much, Shin'Ar.)

Quote:That knowledge gives the field no reason to intercede or return to any remnant of its past vehicle. All that it needs to do is discern that life and its lessons to prepare for the next vehicle, unless it has reached the state of awareness and being where it no longer requires being reincarnated in human form.

Agreed. In which case, it will graduate to a more appropriate learning environment. In that case it will commence its reincarnational experience in 4th-density.

Quote:The Lord Thoth is what I call that field which once bore that identity. In communication we who are incarnate, may honor those who we choose, and acknowledge any of their past vehicles, especially if a particular vehicle was responsible for enhancing or revealing certain experiences which correlate with your own path and experience.

And I humbly respect that.

Quote:It does not mean that such a Field of Consciousness continues to return or communicate as that past vehicle or identity. It simply means that It acknowledges my desire to honor that particular experience which it had and the legacy it left behind.

It doesn't have to, but it can. It can return in a thought-form projection. Many have reported being visited/contacted by Thoth himself (a man by the name Drunvalo Melchizedek comes to mind). How is this possible? Simple: thought-form projection. This is especially true of 5th-density entities who can even manipulate by thought the form of their physical bodies.

Quote:But it does not exist now as Thoth, except in my memory, in my desire to recall that memory, and in my desire to connect with that present field of consciousness as a name and experience that it once bore.

Should my field return again to those who might know my field as Shin'Ar, it will not be as Shin'Ar, it will be as their memory of Shin'Ar, should they choose to recall me by that name.

And that is precisely what I am saying, brother! I do not understand why you tend to disagree so much about things that I mostly agree with you to begin with!

Quote:But we can speak with some degree of wisdom if what we say is supported by many sources, rather than ego alone.

So it is a matter of quantity over quality, my friend? A man can speak for himself alone without anyone else granting him any validity. Another man can speak quoting a hundred different highly distorted sources. Would you give your ear to the latter rather than the former simply because he is "supported by many sources"?

Quote:It is this same ego which sees the ghost before them as their loved one returned to them from the dead. It is their own memory and desire to reunite.

Those who understand these fields will know where their old friends really are. And they will know that those identities now exist as a beings very different than the one they once knew.

Those who understand will have no reason to think of ghosts and expect old vehicles to return.

Those who continue to struggle with their own ego, will also struggle over the identity of others.

In essence, I absolutely agree with you once again.

Quote:None can declare that they have solved the Mystery.

And the Mystery shall ever remain a mystery.

Siren is pretty much spot on here, as far as it's been taken. Many have had experiences with recently deceased relatives, and it had nothing to do with desire (unconscious or otherwise) to conjure up their essence.

(09-23-2012, 07:01 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]Siren is pretty much spot on here, as far as it's been taken. Many have had experiences with recently deceased relatives, and it had nothing to do with desire (unconscious or otherwise) to conjure up their essence.

You will have to point us to the proof of such experiences having been revealed to be actual interaction with deceased loved ones so that we also can benefit from that source of knowledge.

(09-24-2012, 06:43 PM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]You will have to point us to the proof of such experiences having been revealed to be actual interaction with deceased loved ones so that we also can benefit from that source of knowledge.

One could equally ask for proof of them not being the actual interaction. And that would never be forthcoming, of course.

(09-23-2012, 09:14 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]First of all I note that this information is flagged for editing and further updating on the website.

Given that, I would like to ask if anyone in authority of this editing process can tell me what effort is made to avoid editing under bias.

From what I understand, Carla herself edits the transcripts. I believe that any changes made are simply minor grammatical corrections and are usually signified by being put [between brackets].

Any bias present in the editing process would have already been present in the channeling process.

(09-25-2012, 01:03 AM)Bring4th_Austin Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-23-2012, 09:14 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]First of all I note that this information is flagged for editing and further updating on the website.

Given that, I would like to ask if anyone in authority of this editing process can tell me what effort is made to avoid editing under bias.

From what I understand, Carla herself edits the transcripts. I believe that any changes made are simply minor grammatical corrections and are usually signified by being put [between brackets].

Any bias present in the editing process would have already been present in the channeling process.

And besides, I believe every single session is thusly "flagged".

(09-25-2012, 01:00 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-24-2012, 06:43 PM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]You will have to point us to the proof of such experiences having been revealed to be actual interaction with deceased loved ones so that we also can benefit from that source of knowledge.

One could equally ask for proof of them not being the actual interaction. And that would never be forthcoming, of course.

More than that actually, because asking for proof invites negative contact.

(09-25-2012, 01:00 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-24-2012, 06:43 PM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]You will have to point us to the proof of such experiences having been revealed to be actual interaction with deceased loved ones so that we also can benefit from that source of knowledge.

One could equally ask for proof of them not being the actual interaction. And that would never be forthcoming, of course.

Which is exactly why it is not necessary to prove that the moon is or is not made of green cheese.

But does that mean that it is rational or intelligent for us to consider the possibility just because there is or is not an obligation to prove it?

(09-25-2012, 09:21 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-25-2012, 01:00 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-24-2012, 06:43 PM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]You will have to point us to the proof of such experiences having been revealed to be actual interaction with deceased loved ones so that we also can benefit from that source of knowledge.

One could equally ask for proof of them not being the actual interaction. And that would never be forthcoming, of course.

Which is exactly why it is not necessary to prove that the moon is or is not made of green cheese.

But does that mean that it is rational or intelligent for us to consider the possibility just because there is or is not an obligation to prove it?

They are always saying to quickly discard and forget anything they say that we do not resonate with.

(09-25-2012, 09:21 AM)Patrick Wrote: [ -> ]More than that actually, because asking for proof invites negative contact.

Understand that asking for proof doesn't invite negative contact. It's 'attachments' which invite negative contact. The attachments are primary with the questioning arising from the associated unconscious bias.

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(09-25-2012, 09:21 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-25-2012, 01:00 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-24-2012, 06:43 PM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]You will have to point us to the proof of such experiences having been revealed to be actual interaction with deceased loved ones so that we also can benefit from that source of knowledge.

One could equally ask for proof of them not being the actual interaction. And that would never be forthcoming, of course.

Which is exactly why it is not necessary to prove that the moon is or is not made of green cheese.

Not really. There are many people doing some time of research in the area, and as I said plenty of anecdotal evidence.

(09-25-2012, 09:21 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]But does that mean that it is rational or intelligent for us to consider the possibility just because there is or is not an obligation to prove it?

Personally, I don't get to caught up in trying to prove things which would be a waste of time for me (i.e. why mass has the property of gravity)

It may be useful to remember that science never proves anything to be true. That's not how it works. Science tries to prove something to be false. That is all it can do.

You emit an hypothesis that explains an observation and as long as it is not proven to be false, then it remains valid.

(09-25-2012, 09:35 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]Understand that asking for proof doesn't invite negative contact. It's 'attachments' which invite negative contact. The attachments are primary with the questioning arising from the associated unconscious bias.

Got to agree with Zen here.

However, on the whole strawman issue, and the notion that consideration of one facet of evidence is just as valid as the consideration of many, in an effort to suggest that the abundance of ancient similarities pointing toward a seemingly credible possibility, is like suggesting that the moon being made of green cheese is just as possible as the notion of all galaxies having a spiral nature to them.

This is simply not rational thought processing.

We can easily dismiss the green cheese notion for there is really no abundance of evidence pointing to such.

It is not however quite so easy to dismiss the ancient teachings for there is a great deal of evidence found throughout many cultures around the world which all point to a common theme.

This is not about science, it is about puzzle pieces falling delicately into place in such a fashion that it becomes increasingly more difficult to deny the picture that unfolds.

(09-25-2012, 11:00 AM)Patrick Wrote: [ -> ]It may be useful to remember that science never proves anything to be true.

Then again, it may not be useful.

(09-25-2012, 11:27 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-25-2012, 11:00 AM)Patrick Wrote: [ -> ]It may be useful to remember that science never proves anything to be true.

Then again, it may not be useful.

Indeed.

(09-23-2012, 09:14 AM)ShinAr Wrote: [ -> ]When asked about whether or not deceased loved ones are able to return to us in spirit Quo stated :

The puzzle of personality is that puzzle where pieces keep trying to fit together and after incarnation after incarnation is experienced each entity in relationship finds the fit a bit better and a bit better. And as entities move in and out of illusion they can, when out of the illusion, have far greater appreciation of the healing and healthful aspects of a given relationship and find transformative healing within appreciation of the living entity that is within incarnation seen from that broader context.

Indeed, for a person to heal from incarnation there is the self to be forgiven. And each relationship is gazed upon. The surprises involved in this gaze from larger life are many. And we would simply say that in most cases where there is that intuition of presence the source of that intuition is not the self in [the] personality shell of incarnation but the other self that is in relationship and that is relating from larger life as a part of its healing.

So in a way that entity that is you is a healing presence to this entity as it is in larger life reviewing the incarnation that has been and gazing at the self to see what perhaps shall be the next choices of incarnation, of personality shell, of mission, of purpose.

END QUOTE

I might be wrong but I understand the above quote as the self who has deceased, when reviewing its incarnation and healing the self, even healing another self who is still incarnated whom it was in relationship with, which is what can be intuited sometimes by the incarnated self as presence of the one who has deceased. The entity who is still in the incarnation is also a healing presence for the one who is not. Sounds like oneness to me.

Shin'Ar Wrote:This undoubtedly disagrees with many who say that their loved one returns to guide them or to watch over them. Or to those who say that the deceased return in that identity to haunt or to follow those they once interacted with.

What are your thoughts on the dead returning to us?

Maybe Ra can answer some of your questions:

Ra Wrote:47.13 Questioner: What stimulus would create what we call an Earth-bound spirit or a lingering ghost?

Ra: I am Ra. The stimulus for this is the faculty of the will. If the will of yellow-ray mind/body/spirit is that which is stronger than the progressive impetus of the physical death towards realization of that which comes, that is, if the will is concentrated enough upon the previous experience, the entity’s shell of yellow ray, though no longer activated, cannot either be completely deactivated and, until the will is released, the mind/body/spirit complex is caught. This often occurs, as we see you are aware, in the case of sudden death as well as in the case of extreme concern for a thing or an other-self.

46:2 Wrote:...This will aid due to the alerting of many discarnate entities also aware of these ritual sentences...

69:5 Wrote:...The uniqueness of this situation is not the lack of friends, for this, as all entities, has its guides or angelic presences and, due to polarization, teachers and friends also...

69:3 Wrote:...in another out-of-body experience such as death the entity here examined would, as most positively polarized entities, have a great deal of protection from comrades, guides, and portions of the self which would be aware of the transfer you call the physical death...

(09-23-2012, 12:14 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]I'd imagine there is a point before "healing", where the (disembodied) loved one could return (mainly to the time/space present) in some conscious capacity to communicate a message directly. Further, if the deceased individual had already 'graduated' 3D, there would be a clearer map and more consciousness present with which to devote to such an attempt.

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By the way, this should go into Q'uo channeling sub-forum.

Lol, Point before "healing".

Nice use of the caps. Wicked funny from a interdimensional point of view =D

(09-23-2012, 07:01 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]Siren is pretty much spot on here, as far as it's been taken. Many have had experiences with recently deceased relatives, and it had nothing to do with desire (unconscious or otherwise) to conjure up their essence.

I have experience with deceased relatives of others, all spirits of people i have never met. All information gained has put the still living at ease. If it was just random spirit "imposters" i would say they have been very helpful.