Let's say you and a few of your friends built a time machine, and went back 6000 years.
Or if that is too farfetched, perhaps you could imagine that you and your friends built a warp drive spaceship, and found a planet with some humanoids at around the same level of development as we were 6000 years ago.
Now also assume that you are "STS" oriented.
Or if that is too farfetched, perhaps you could imagine that you are "STO" oriented, but still rather naive and believe that people can be controlled "for their own good".
Knowing what you know now, do you think it would be very difficult to mentally manipulate those people into doing pretty much whatever it is you wished?
Not humans, but I have thought about having an anthro wolf that would do whatever I said.
If I had a time machine I'd want to see how the pyramids were built.
I wouldn't even know where to start. Who am I to know what's best for others? If I went back that far I would probably just be in a constant state of wonder at the things I saw around me, but then again I've always been a bit of a history nerd
.
I wonder how easily people from the past would believe anything I'd say, they probably wouldn't speak any of the languages I know. They'd probably just think I was some werido.
On the other hand I think from an STS point of view that it would seem like a noble goal to return to the past and shape it in your own image, and would probably could be accomplished to a degree with careful planning and manipulation. What course those changes could take in the crucible of 6000 years of human experience however, is hard to say.
If anything I'd go back in time and tell the future me that went back in time not to do it.
(10-06-2012, 12:37 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Knowing what you know now, do you think it would be very difficult to mentally manipulate those people into doing pretty much whatever it is you wished?
If our history is a guide, I'd say it would probably be possible to confuse them enough that they didn't polarize positively but difficult to convince them to be willing slaves and polarize negatively.
I'm confused by the questions..not sure what you're asking or where you're going with it maybe. What is it that I know now? Why would sto be controlling or manipulative?
because that's what we did before
we saw they were living like savages and we thought hey all these technologies we have would make their lives easier
we gave them our technologies freely and they went to war over who should be using them vs who shouldn't be.
Some very interesting answers, and of course feel free to say whatever comes to mind!
However, there appears to be some confusion about the question:
Quote:Knowing what you know now, do you think it would be very difficult to mentally manipulate those people into doing pretty much whatever it is you wished?
I'm not asking if you want to, or think it would be a good idea. I can only hope that would be a dumb question 'round these parts!
I'm asking how
difficult you think it would be.
Consciously, of course..that's not something I wish to do. I think we're subconsciously controlling in various ways. I'm not sure we understand or can really appreciate the power of thought..what thoughts are and their effects.
"The mechanism of these energy transfers is the thought or, more precisely, the thought-form for any thought is a form or symbol or thing that is an object seen in time/space reference."
Enlightenment seems to have the potential to subtly cause separation. We have the answers, we know what's going on, and if others could just see and align with us that would be best for them. Of course it may not be like that overtly, but if you watch your thoughts it's there. Isn't the point of free will to let others be? Why must we manage our other personalities? It's interesting when you try to become transparent in personality, watch your thoughts, and see what others are teaching you about yourself or the direction in which your thoughts go.
I've stopped identifying as a wanderer. The whole concept makes sense, but I just don't know or can't know. It would seem more helpful and congruent with the idea of oneness to identify as being from earth, rather than coming from above. Maybe I'm a wanderer and maybe not..I think it's best left as an unknown.
I never thought about not thinking of oneself as a wanderer. You're right that we can't know for sure. With the veil, we can't even be sure about the concept of densities. The thought crosses my mind sometimes that the LOO is an elaborate story. That putting my belief in it makes me happier, because I can get a grasp of spiritual progression. That there is always opportunity for growth. While at the same time it makes me more concerned about whether I'm acting in an STS or STO manner, even with my thoughts. Thoughts create, or so they say, and yet I've had some angry ones. So even if the LOO weren't real, I can still take some of the tenets from it. Such as this moment contains love.
Well, regarding manipulating people, it might be easier if you had some experienced people on your team to do that. You'd have to recruit some master manipulators.
First rule of space travel, dont involve yourself in the affairs of races that cant colonize all the planets in their local starsystem or get close to it anyway.
Beyond that, if i get a timemachine, i'll try to make its presence known to the local time/space observes who would certainly notice something that out of the ordinary, once they notice me i'd simply pack up my timemachine and leave with them on better adventures.
(10-07-2012, 02:16 PM)Icaro Wrote: [ -> ]Enlightenment seems to have the potential to subtly cause separation. We have the answers, we know what's going on, and if others could just see and align with us that would be best for them. Of course it may not be like that overtly, but if you watch your thoughts it's there. Isn't the point of free will to let others be?
However, that is merely the mindset of one in the initial stages of awakening. In Spiral Dynamics, it's still the so-called "first-tier" which is still associated with survival concerns and only just starting to polarize.
http://rationalspirituality.com/articles...namics.htm Wrote:All of that begins to change with second-tier thinking. Because second-tier consciousness is fully aware of the interior stages of development--even if it cannot articulate them in a technical fashion--it steps back and grasps the big picture, and thus second-tier thinking appreciates the necessary role that all of the various memes play . Second-tier awareness thinks in terms of the overall spiral of existence, and not merely in the terms of any one level.
Where the green meme begins to grasp the numerous different systems and pluralistic contexts that exist in different cultures (which is why it is indeed the sensitive self, i.e., sensitive to the marginalization of others), second-tier thinking goes one step further. It looks for the rich contexts that link and join these pluralistic systems, and thus it takes these separate systems and begins to embrace, include, and integrate them into holistic spirals and integral meshworks. Second-tier thinking, in other words, is instrumental in moving from relativism to holism, or from pluralism to integralism .
(10-07-2012, 02:16 PM)Icaro Wrote: [ -> ]I've stopped identifying as a wanderer. The whole concept makes sense, but I just don't know or can't know. It would seem more helpful and congruent with the idea of oneness to identify as being from earth, rather than coming from above. Maybe I'm a wanderer and maybe not..I think it's best left as an unknown.
Consider the infinite universe and the thousands of planets from which life evolved near earth. In that context of logos, you might as well be "from earth".
Gemini - The Law of One as a whole is interesting indeed. To me, it seems entirely more complex than what is presented on its surface.
Cyan - Thank you for the advice on space travel, Captain
zenmaster - I can understand and agree with the role valuing plays in the progression of consciousness. However, I'm exploring the idea that certain notions of correctness from within the self have to be abandoned, otherwise boundaries are formed between those who don't have shared understanding.
"The third step is that step which, when accomplished, renders one the most humble servant of all, transparent in personality and completely able to know and accept other-selves. In relation to the pursuit of the magical working the continuing discipline of the personality involves the adept in knowing itself, accepting itself, and thus clearing the path towards the great indigo gateway to the Creator. To become the Creator is to become all that there is. There is then no personality in the sense with which the adept begins its learn/teaching."
It's interesting that an adept is framed as the student. I'm starting to realize that the beginning of the greater work occurs after learning about the illusory nature of reality. How do you become all that there is if one can't identify with those who supposedly don't share understanding? Put another way..it's very easy for like-minds to get along. Interacting with those where the potential difference is great can evoke a lot of emotion however, which is essentially the response of failed
control, especially in the dating realm. So it begs the question as to what correctness really is in relation to achieving
overall balance.
Ra describes transformation as a sacrifice..a giving in to the self. I'm learning that more recognition of self and hence merging with more of that which is, is available by learning from and trying to identify with those I perceive as different. I'm speaking in terms of relationships with others, and differences in personality, not gnosis. I guess what I'm describing is work on the level of the deep mind.
Good point about locality.
(10-07-2012, 09:50 PM)Icaro Wrote: [ -> ]zenmaster - I can understand and agree with the role valuing plays in the progression of consciousness. However, I'm exploring the idea that certain notions of correctness from within the self have to be abandoned, otherwise boundaries are formed between those who don't have shared understanding.
But I am specifically addressing why boundaries are formed between those who don't have shared understanding. It is developmental in nature, so I put it in the evolutionary context.
(10-07-2012, 09:50 PM)Icaro Wrote: [ -> ]So it begs the question as to what correctness really is in relation to achieving overall balance.
I will assume by correctness you mean balance. When you don't have the unconscious reactions, you are balanced with respect to catalyst and therefore the situation may be addressed more fully as it is and less as it is in context of how it upsets or displaces your sensibilities, feeds ego, etc.
(10-07-2012, 09:50 PM)Icaro Wrote: [ -> ]Ra describes transformation as a sacrifice..a giving in to the self. I'm learning that more recognition of self and hence merging with more of that which is, is available by learning from and trying to identify with those I perceive as different. I'm speaking in terms of relationships with others, and differences in personality, not gnosis. I guess what I'm describing is work on the level of the deep mind.
This type of work is what forms the basis of valuing transformation.
Ok. There is the offering of self, and if it is rejected by the other, the catalyst is then turned back on the self to be accepted rather than mulling over the idea that one isn't being recognized. That creates an additional boundary, and is the point I'm making. I can see where we might be moving into semantics. So initially there is the attempt at shared understanding, yet should that not occur, the responsibility rests within to internalize the catalyst along the path of acceptance, thus offering love/light.
(10-07-2012, 09:50 PM)Icaro Wrote: [ -> ]Cyan - Thank you for the advice on space travel, Captain
Funny thing about me, I feel that while I'm relatively sure what you said was meant in good humor and in no way means any offence. I look at the text and i litearlly do not know if i should register sarcasam or not, and if i should should i care if it is sarcasm.
You know what i mean? *sigh* its something thats been following me around for years. Anyway, you're welcome either way.
Its from Star Trek and I'm sure its all wrong because its hollywood and what not, but in general its a good idea not to intervene in anything that is unable to contact you first.
If i were STS as per OP. Then i would not intervene, mostly because it would be unwise to intervene regardless of the outcome as it would neccesitate my staying around and reinforcing my earlier intervention "forever" while its, in reality, much better to let the planet evolve on its own and then see the outcome and work with that because then you have a higher probablity of not needing to "return to" previous work.
Thats just my logic anyway. Same as why we should never get involved in civil wars.
Yeah I was trying to be funny, and reference Captain Kirk! It does make sense though.
Why go in the first place?
(10-06-2012, 12:37 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Let's say you and a few of your friends built a time machine, and went back 6000 years.
Or if that is too farfetched, perhaps you could imagine that you and your friends built a warp drive spaceship, and found a planet with some humanoids at around the same level of development as we were 6000 years ago.
Now also assume that you are "STS" oriented.
Or if that is too farfetched, perhaps you could imagine that you are "STO" oriented, but still rather naive and believe that people can be controlled "for their own good".
Knowing what you know now, do you think it would be very difficult to mentally manipulate those people into doing pretty much whatever it is you wished?
I think it depends on what sort of metaphysical belief system/practice they have in place - not sure if by development you mean technology as well as spiritual systems.
If they practice something akin to the Law of One and chose to embrace serve to others, I think we could only manipulate slightly and only if the manipulator remained unseen and exceptionally good.
If they did not have a spiritual philosophy that understood polarities without significant distortion (unlike our religions) OR openly adopted a service to self practice, I think they would be exceedingly easy to control. It would be easy to excel and differentiate us, as well as anyone in their society "chosen" by us, as superior to the rest via technology, thereby easily implementing a system of hierarchical control. And if we have enough support among the elite, we could even remain hidden behind the scenes.
So I think overall, it'd be rather easy.
It would not be too difficult, if you have the right means to do it.
1) Observe the different civilizations
2) Find ways to embed whatever you want to embed in their culture by appearing through "prophets", "visions" and "inspirations"
3) (STO: Optional) Try to figure out why they are still not happy under the "peaceful" laws, and why there are still conflicts
4) Jump back and forth in time, to see the results of different estabilishments - then go back to "different", "undisturbed" timeline to do it again, only this time, better
5) Observe how at one point, this system becomes self-sustaining, and you will no longer need to work to keep up any laws or doctrines, cause people growing in the system will have supporters and deniers naturally.
Personally, I would love to be able to journey like this, but I would only do one thing in these visits: it is that I would place small, small hints and stories that can motivate/help those that are already suspecting that no matter what happens, All is One, and nothing is ever lost. (And no, I would not want to be like the Archon that is the vessel for the fear-based religions in Earth currently -.-)
(10-07-2012, 01:15 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]Some very interesting answers, and of course feel free to say whatever comes to mind!
However, there appears to be some confusion about the question:
Quote:Knowing what you know now, do you think it would be very difficult to mentally manipulate those people into doing pretty much whatever it is you wished?
I'm not asking if you want to, or think it would be a good idea. I can only hope that would be a dumb question 'round these parts!
I'm asking how difficult you think it would be.
The brain of the human being is a thing of habit and reaction.
But I think there is a great difference between the naivety of our primitive ancestors and us.
We have been programmed through a few thousand years to follow and obey power and the system.
Our ancestors were far more in tune with nature and the planet, and with their actual humanity, than we are now.
Although there is the matter of them being more amazed and enamored with what technology would reveal to them, even to the point of considering us gods to be honored, I do not think it would be as easy as it would to gain control of today's human following.
Having them consider you a god because of your great abilities is one thing, but trying to get a species to completely alter their way of life and give up those natural things which have connected them to their planet, would only serve to provoke revolt.
if you were to go back 6 thousand years and try to tell a woman that she has to leave her children and go to work every day, she would probably rather drive a spear through your heart.
The system has had its way with us.
We would not have that head start to our advantage in the scenario that you propose.
It is a very intriguing thought process however.
The human brain has been dramatically altered from its primitive state resulting in reaction to environment that is more in tune with the system and its expectations and affects.
Now, what if we could go back without the restraint of the brain or the human form?
What if we could back as our true being of consciousness, free from physical binds, and use intuition and field connection to influence them instead of personal physical contact?
More very thoughtful and interesting ideas!
But gosh- I think I have done a really poor job of getting at my point with this one.
In my opinion, I wouldn't want to
manipulate anybody into anything. Though I don't think influence can be helped.
What I was trying to get at was... see how easy it could have been? It probably wouldn't have taken much for a group of beings, no more evolved than we are now, to dominate the minds of our ancestors... past the point of guidance and influence, to manipulation and control.
IMO- whatever the intentions were of this group (or groups) be it "positive" or "negative" the PROBLEM would have been the vast difference in knowledge and wisdom between "they" and "us".
Therefore- should modern day humanity be presented with a similar opportunity in the near future, will we have learned the lesson? Or would we repeat history? (If in fact that was the history. It's all hypothetical, I know.)
By all means continue to discuss, but I wanted to make another attempt at clarification.
I agree, that's what I was trying to get at and may even be applicable to us. This domination of mind concept is interesting.
"It is our feeling that to be each entity which one attempts to serve is to simplify the grasp of what service is necessary or possible."
What does it mean to be each entity? They could be referring to incarnating as a wanderer, then becoming "one" through polarization. Or, since the first half of that statement talks about providing comforts designed for sleeping, it could be that we're to mirror another's understanding, awake or asleep..speak and act at the appropriate level..be transparent in personality..learn to accept the other with no payment needed in return.
I can't find it, but it's said that crystallization of yellow ray entails only wishing for another's happiness. So it seems that proper energy transfer is not about the other conforming to your ideals unless there is something within yourself that needs to be communicated.