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Full Version: In Defense of Narcissism
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Unbound

This fascinating article was posted on my facebook today, and I thought it was very much worth sharing here because I feel it has some importance in regards to the notions of STO and STS that are in the thought patterns of this forum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19876494?ref=nf

"Narcissism is a necessary form of love, Freud argued, because, as is now understood, human beings are born too early. A current theory in evolutionary biology suggests that we have to be born long before we are able to look after ourselves so that our oversized heads can navigate the birth canal. Dogs and cats, dolphins and apes, do not face such difficulties and so become independent relatively speedily.

As infants and then youths, we demand parental servitude not for weeks or months but years. His or Her Majesty the Baby."

"Narcissism is, then, the first form of love we know and to us such self-love appears to perform miracles.

You feel thirst and scream. As if by magic, sweet milk falls onto your expectant tongue. You experience discomfort and moan. The wetness and chill disappear. You want to sleep. Warm sheets and blankets enfold you.

The whole of life seems to be for the infant - in a way, to be the infant. It and the world are one."

"An infant must know that it's loved because only then can it trust the risky business of coming to love others. This first love resources us as life unfolds, bringing confidence and courage, spontaneity and drive, a sense of safety and of being grounded."

"The myth of Narcissus, for example, tells of the beautiful young man whose problem was not that he loved himself but that he couldn't love himself. In the story, he catches sight of himself in the forest pool and becomes transfixed by the image the still water reflects back. However, as he came closer to the face, and the face came closer to him, it disappeared at the moment their lips might have touched. As he reached out to hold the statuesque body, the lovely form dissolved in ripples of water.

Ted Hughes brilliantly translates this crucial section in Ovid's Metamorphoses: "Not recognising himself/ He wanted only himself."

This child, then, had not learnt to know himself as he was, and know that he was loved as he was. He had not developed the kind of narcissism that allowed him to feel comfortable in his own skin, at ease with himself."

"Aristotle picked up the theme, explaining that good self-love is vital for intimacy. For one thing, he noted, if you cannot befriend yourself, warts and all, then how can you possible expect to befriend anyone else, warts and all. After all, you are closer to yourself than anyone else. I remember myself as a teenager feeling anxious when meeting new people. Looking back, I can see now that the difficulty wasn't the new people. It was more that I was a stranger to myself.

What good self-love achieves, Aristotle continued, is the capacity to get over yourself. Then you are liberated to see that there's a world around you. You are not king or queen. Instead, you know you are one of many, and those many are there to love and be with, to be known by and to get to know. You have time for others because you do not need to have all the time for yourself. You are a delight to be with, having taken in the first love of your parents and now being able to live it yourself."

"Perhaps our understanding of ourselves has become too individualistic, too mechanical. We worry about autonomy more than connection, about freedom over commitment, about individual rights more than the common good.

It's as if the default image that the Western mind has of itself is the billiard ball. We jostle and bounce off each other for fear of touching and holding one another. Could the wariness of the word narcissism be because our culture is secretly, unhealthily, narcissistic? That's why we retreat from the word."
Once again, this seems to me to be a parallel expression of the first states of individuation, signified by Ialdebaoth or the Demiurge whom is only recognizing of themselves as the world.
What if I'm an alien and I ask you, what is this? How does it work? What is its functionality for human(s)? How does it work in your society?

Unbound

Aha That's a good question.

If I was to give MY answer, I would say that "narcissism" is a word that was made up to describe a state of behaviour in an attempt to single out a pattern. Whether or not that pattern is given negative or positive connotations I suppose depends on the person doing the describing.
What do you mean when you say, " a state of behaviour in an attempt to single out a pattern"? True, different people give different connotations based on their biases and what not.

Cyan

(10-10-2012, 06:13 PM)rie Wrote: [ -> ]What do you mean when you say, " a state of behaviour in an attempt to single out a pattern"? True, different people give different connotations based on their biases and what not.

IT seems like narcissm is focus of attention to the level of the photon and the mathmathical to the exclusion of societal niceties to gain any outcome desired.

Physical narcists are rapists
Emotional are sociopaths
Speech are messiah complexes and so on
And the end is God complex

So, where does the bad narcist begin and the good narcist end. IF we should all strive to become god (classical god complex)? =)
Narcissism is also a behavioral expression of a deeper internal experience with one self and others. In a sense, Narcissism may be the surface manifestation of a deeper problem/issue/experience with self and others.

This is what I ask - what is the functionality of this behavior?

Cyan

(10-10-2012, 06:41 PM)rie Wrote: [ -> ]Narcissism is also a behavioral expression of a deeper internal experience with one self and others. In a sense, Narcissism may be the surface manifestation of a deeper problem/issue/experience with self and others.

Isnt all in some way.

Unbound

(10-10-2012, 06:41 PM)rie Wrote: [ -> ]Narcissism is also a behavioral expression of a deeper internal experience with one self and others. In a sense, Narcissism may be the surface manifestation of a deeper problem/issue/experience with self and others.

This is what I ask - what is the functionality of this behavior?

I am curious what it is you are suggesting as you seem to have something in mind when asking this question?

I can't say I in any honest regard know the "functionality" of any individual pattern of behaviour. No single action is used for any singular functionality across all forms of life.

What are you defining as narcissism when you ask about the behaviour?

I don't think the word even has clear definitions here.
Of course. Sets of pattern in behavior is surface material. The functionality of behavior is useful to understand phenomenon.

Unbound

Also, I want to note the title of the thread is also the title of the article, I personally am not attempting to make some kind of defense or conclusion about narcissism, I just thought it was an interesting article for discussion.
(10-10-2012, 06:49 PM)rie Wrote: [ -> ]Of course. Sets of pattern in behavior is surface material. The functionality of behavior is useful to understand phenomenon.

So you feel each individual action has a particular functionality, or that patterns of behaviour have certain functionalities?
(10-10-2012, 06:51 PM)TheEternal Wrote: [ -> ]So you feel each individual action has a particular functionality, or that patterns of behaviour have certain functionalities?

Just one way to understand behavior.
Either way, it is possible to understand a phenomenon by understanding behavioral or even emotional functionalities. You may get a circular understanding of how things play out.

Unbound

What do you mean by phenomenon in this case, as in the perception of narcissism?
Yes narcissism

Unbound

Well, what kind of narcissism are we talking about? Also are we referring to what is known as "primary narcissism" or "secondary narcissism"?

Primary narcissism or healthy self-love would have many functions in the way of stability, humility and an awareness of one's own state and a capability, in self love, to accept and give love to and from others.

What is known as secondary narcissism, or the withdrawal of the self from others and indulged in to the self, is what most think of when they use the word "narcissism". As to the function of what this type of narcissism would be, I am not sure. In most regards it would seem to me that the behaviour is taken on as a way to protect the ego-self from dissolution out of fear and thus a rejection of realities outside the self which cannot be controlled.

Cyan

(10-10-2012, 07:32 PM)TheEternal Wrote: [ -> ]Well, what kind of narcissism are we talking about? Also are we referring to what is known as "primary narcissism" or "secondary narcissism"?

Primary narcissism or healthy self-love would have many functions in the way of stability, humility and an awareness of one's own state and a capability, in self love, to accept and give love to and from others.

What is known as secondary narcissism, or the withdrawal of the self from others and indulged in to the self, is what most think of when they use the word "narcissism". As to the function of what this type of narcissism would be, I am not sure. In most regards it would seem to me that the behaviour is taken on as a way to protect the ego-self from dissolution out of fear and thus a rejection of realities outside the self which cannot be controlled.

My understanding is that secondary narcissism is closer to wearing protective clothing when working with dangerous chemicals

Earth is certainly full of dangerous chemicals.

Unbound

That's an interesting concept, which offers a different, and not negatively connotated functionality.

So in that regard, what would the narcissistic "clothing" protect one from?
That being said, there are other views:

"Karen Horney saw narcissism quite differently from Freud, Kohut and other mainstream psychoanalytic theorists in that she did not posit a primary narcissism but saw the narcissistic personality as the product of a certain kind of early environment acting on a certain kind of temperament. For her, narcissistic needs and tendencies are not inherent in human nature."
Sometimes it's interesting to look at some theories to see if there are similarities in understanding narcissism.

E.g., John Bowlby and others (attachment and object relations perspective) do see pathological narcissism as a protection mechanism. In childhood we develop an 'internal working model' or a set of guidelines on how we understand ourselves and others, and the world around us. Based on the quality of the bonding between child and caregiver(s), the child's internal working model may be negative or positive. If negative, it's possible that the person views himself as an unloveable and unworthy person, and that others think he is unlovable and unworthy, and the experience back up this understanding of himself. So by dismissing this negative internal working model, the self becomes fragmented into a "false self" and more "true self" (or even other types). That's a lot of work in building and maintaining an "image" out there and make oneself believe in it, too, despite experiencing self in contrary ways. It seems a bit like joining a cult (of, really, a personality).

Cyan

(10-10-2012, 07:46 PM)TheEternal Wrote: [ -> ]That's an interesting concept, which offers a different, and not negatively connotated functionality.

So in that regard, what would the narcissistic "clothing" protect one from?

"...For her, narcissistic needs and tendencies are not inherent in human nature."

This part, and the part where others realize this part.

I Was/am call a narcissist in adult quite often.

Back in pre-school and 1-2nd grade All adults that i liked and that liked me called me a man from space that you could talk with about anything. I was about 8-9 at that time.

You tell me, I really dont have an answer to the narcissist question. I just think that the chemical metaphor is perhaps more apt than most, considering that emotions are the body's equivelant (natural version of) chemicals. So, what do the clothes protect from I wonder.

Just as your body needs clothes to make you able to both experience the highs and lows associated with a wide spectrum of living (humans inhabit areas from -40 to + 40Celcius comfortably.) Your mind needs clothes to make you able to associate with others more comfortably. Some people can walk around in their underwear all day long, most cant.

Anyway, feels like an apt metaphor.