Bring4th

I noticed there wasn't a thread about this archetype yet so I thought I'd start one up to get some discussion going. There isn't much in the Ra material about this one so you'll have to bear with me.

Let's start with the pictures! (my favourite part )


The depiction of this card is fairly undistorted from the set used in the Ra material and later decks, though the directions are reversed. There is a nude woman under a sky full of stars, in most depictions she has one foot on solid land and the other in the the water. She is holding two decanters from which she pours water on the one hand into the body of water before her and on the other hand onto the ground at her feet. From the land a plant grows, supporting a bird or a butterfly.

I like that the last card, which is from the Sépher de Moïse deck, is named "the Stars," pointing out that in central star is not alone but surrounded by seven others making 8, a number which symbolizes infinity.

Ra had a different name for this archetype however:

Quote:80.13 Questioner: Then is this, from the point of view of the fifteenth archetype, somewhat of an excursion into the Matrix of the Spirit in this process? Does that make any sense?

Ra: I am Ra. The excursion of which you speak and the process of disassociation is most usually linked with that archetype you call Hope which we would prefer to call Faith. This archetype is the Catalyst of the Spirit and, because of the illuminations of the Potentiator of the Spirit, will begin to cause these changes in the adept’s viewpoint.

To give that quote some context Don and Ra were discussing the disassociation of the adept from the illusion of the physical world. Ra relates this disassociation to the 17th archetype and names it Hope or Faith. This starts the wheels turning in my head.

Let's look at this archetype in relation to the previous archetype on the spirit track the Potentiator, the Lightning Struck Tower. In that card we have had our illusions shattered by a great flash of inspiration and are thrown to the ground. The Star then picks up that thread and we now find ourselves groping along in the darkness of the Matrix of the Spirit using starlight to navigate towards the wonders we glimpsed in that brief flash of light. Can we be certain of what we saw? Not really, because it was only for an instant and has been shrouded in darkness once more. That is why we need faith.

The woman is nude representing the need for our faith to be pure and unshrouded, transparent and honest. She pours water out of the two decanters and never seems to run out (though the liquid pouring from one is yellow in the Brotherhood of Light card . . . I'm just not gonna touch that). One empties into the body of water, adding it's essence to the rest, the other empties onto the ground, feeding a plant on which a butterfly or bird. To me these represent the two things accomplished by faith and seeking, the one pouring into the water can be seen as the seeker increasing the planetary vibration by adding their own vibrations to the planetary whole. The one pouring onto the ground nourishes the plant upon which the butterfly or bird, representing the enlightened soul, perches.

Well, that's my interpretation. Feel free to add your own thoughts/critiques!

- I note that body, head, and eyes face the left (negative) path, though due to the kneeling position, has ceased and/or is unable to move in that direction.
- I note that in kneeling, she is subjugating self.
- I note that (in the BHotL deck) the stars are in the vicinity of the head/face. This was used to symbolize an awareness between self and the unity of all things.
- I note that black/white is used in the diamond in the sun. Unusual coloring, in that positive/negative was red/black in these cards. See next card.
- I note the positive path is red and firm, whereas the negative path is fluid and infirm.
- I would suggest the yellow liquid is actually representative of golden color, or gold, the path of higher calling.

One might note that much is lost in adaptations, such as left/right path and in this case, positioning of stars, color of fluids, etc etc.

http://www.lawofone.info/images/large/tarot17.jpg
i always thoughts she was pouring water on two patches of earth. one brings forth beauty (STO) the other takes and gives nothing (STS). if spirit (water) is an energy that can be hoarded perhaps that's why the STS side is also visualized as a lake/pond

In summary, Faith is the catalyst of the spirit ?

I wonder if the earth and water she's pouring onto/into might represent the conscious (earth) and unconscious (sea) minds.

(10-18-2012, 11:18 AM)Patrick Wrote: [ -> ]In summary, Faith is the catalyst of the spirit ?

That is my interpretation.

You guys are so clever, I can't see any of this until you mention it.

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(10-18-2012, 11:59 AM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-18-2012, 11:18 AM)Patrick Wrote: [ -> ]In summary, Faith is the catalyst of the spirit ?

That is my interpretation.

Well this planet at this time/space is a really good place for the evolution of the spirit then. I don't think Faith has ever been more frowned upon.

(10-18-2012, 01:16 AM)spero Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.lawofone.info/images/large/tarot17.jpg
i always thoughts she was pouring water on two patches of earth. one brings forth beauty (STO) the other takes and gives nothing (STS). if spirit (water) is an energy that can be hoarded perhaps that's why the STS side is also visualized as a lake/pond

According to Ra polarization of the spirit only really starts with the Experience of the Spirit, though that polarization is spurred on by the Catalyst.

Quote:80.15 Questioner: The only obvious significant difference, I believe, between the positive and negative adepts in using this shuttle is the way they polarize. Is there a relationship between the archetypes of the spirit and whether the polarization is either positive or negative? Is, for instance, the positive calling through the sixteenth archetype and the negative calling through the fifteenth archetype? I am very confused about this and I imagine that that question is either poor or meaningless. Can you answer that?

Ra: I am Ra. It is a challenge to answer such a query, for there is some confusion in its construction. However, we shall attempt to speak upon the subject.

The adept, whether positive or negative, has the same Matrix. The Potentiator is also identical. Due to the Catalyst of each adept the adept may begin to pick and choose that into which it shall look further. The Experience of the Spirit, that which you have called the Moon, is then, by far, the more manifest of influences upon the polarity of the adept. Even the most unhappy of experiences, shall we say, which seem to occur in the Catalyst of the adept, seen from the viewpoint of the spirit, may, with the discrimination possible in shadow, be worked with until light equaling the light of brightest noon descends upon the adept and positive or service-to-others illumination has occurred. The service-to-self adept will satisfy itself with the shadows and, grasping the light of day, will toss back the head in grim laughter, preferring the darkness.

I think this can be seen in the Brotherhood of Light card where the two polarities are united within the star.

(10-18-2012, 12:40 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-18-2012, 01:16 AM)spero Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.lawofone.info/images/large/tarot17.jpg
i always thoughts she was pouring water on two patches of earth. one brings forth beauty (STO) the other takes and gives nothing (STS). if spirit (water) is an energy that can be hoarded perhaps that's why the STS side is also visualized as a lake/pond

According to Ra polarization of the spirit only really starts with the Experience of the Spirit, though that polarization is spurred on by the Catalyst.

Quote:80.15 Questioner: The only obvious significant difference, I believe, between the positive and negative adepts in using this shuttle is the way they polarize. Is there a relationship between the archetypes of the spirit and whether the polarization is either positive or negative? Is, for instance, the positive calling through the sixteenth archetype and the negative calling through the fifteenth archetype? I am very confused about this and I imagine that that question is either poor or meaningless. Can you answer that?

Ra: I am Ra. It is a challenge to answer such a query, for there is some confusion in its construction. However, we shall attempt to speak upon the subject.

The adept, whether positive or negative, has the same Matrix. The Potentiator is also identical. Due to the Catalyst of each adept the adept may begin to pick and choose that into which it shall look further. The Experience of the Spirit, that which you have called the Moon, is then, by far, the more manifest of influences upon the polarity of the adept. Even the most unhappy of experiences, shall we say, which seem to occur in the Catalyst of the adept, seen from the viewpoint of the spirit, may, with the discrimination possible in shadow, be worked with until light equaling the light of brightest noon descends upon the adept and positive or service-to-others illumination has occurred. The service-to-self adept will satisfy itself with the shadows and, grasping the light of day, will toss back the head in grim laughter, preferring the darkness.

I think this can be seen in the Brotherhood of Light card where the two polarities are united within the star.

lol i read the same quote and see it to mean the catalyst of the spirit is different for a STO vs STS adept lol. Specifically...

Quote:...The adept, whether positive or negative, has the same Matrix. The Potentiator is also identical. Due to the Catalyst of each adept the adept may begin to pick and choose that into which it shall look further...

but i can see your interpretation as well lol and concede the real polarization happens in the experience and response to catalyst

This archetype is, of course, part of a cycle, as has been hinted at throughout the thread. The matrix begins unpotentiated, dark, receptive, fertile but not yet impregnated. Then, KABAM! In a flash of light, much is revealed. So much that you are left shocked, your belief system in shambles. And after that instantaneous moment of enlightenment, you are left only with a memory of what was just revealed to you. Somehow that memory is never quite as potent as the experience, though that experience prevents you from looking at your life the same way as before.

So what comes next? How can the seeker now manage to recover stability? The matrix is now pregnant with spiritual possibilities, but those possibilities are only dimly seen as a distant flicker, a star in the night sky. Once the dust settles after the initial catastrophe potentiated by the lightning, the old modes of protection have fallen away. No longer can the spirit be hidden from itself as a means of maintaining stability within this dense world. No longer can we hide that truth revealed by the lightning. What's done is done. And so we find ourselves spiritually naked, gazing at this dim vision, uncertain about what it represents, whether it is really possible, and -- most importantly -- which aspect of it is what our heart truly desires. For in any catastrophe, there is enormous opportunity to move toward either the light or the dark. Or you can reject the catalyst altogether.

Let us consider an example. If you think you have a good job where your bosses like you and the work you do and then you are suddenly fired without an apparent means of supporting your wife and kids, you will find that, once the shock has passed, you have three options: 1. (unpolarized) You can send the catalyst downward into the mind and body through transforming the potentials for faith into anger and despair. This is a rejection of the lesson and thus attracts an even more potent catalyst. 2. (negative) You can take this as an opportunity to reconsider your investment in your career, your family and yourself. You may decide that your family is holding you back and that you never would have chosen this career if you hadn't been tied to them. So you leave your family and let them fend for themselves. 3. (positive) You can take this as an opportunity to trust that this is part of the plan, that there will be even greater things to come, that your family will be provided for even if you can't see how, and attend to all the smaller lessons which are coiled up in this one event -- lessons which once learned will allow you to avoid such a catastrophe in the future.

Hence, within the star is a mixture of light and dark. If I were to draw this image, I would place the yin-yang symbol in the star, rather than the simple white and black triangles, or at least adapt that symbol to the triangles.

The water that is poured out represents the attachments, as Ra mentions in the quotation referenced above. Prior to the striking of the lightning, we maintain numerous beliefs about ourselves and our surroundings which seem perfectly acceptable, true, and useful. But when the catastrophe occurs, only then do you realize what really matters. Only then do you learn that the petty things are nothings, wispy and ephemeral they fall away with ease. Food doesn't matter, comfort doesn't matter, the opinions of others don't matter. What matters is what lies within you at the deepest levels. What matters is to access this part of yourself in order to push through the catastrophe. All of these things that suddenly don't matter then begin to flow out of the self, returning to their source. The things you thought you wanted, the desires, hopes and dreams you thought were so important but now seem flimsy, these return to the endless ocean of possibility, the recesses of the unconscious mind. This silver water of the possible, the not-yet-manifest must flow back out of the self in order to allow a clear vision of what truly lies in the deepest parts of the heart. If the silver water is not returned to the ocean, you cannot see the star clearly enough to follow it. The gold water is the water of manifestation, the things which have found their way into your life and become a reality. So often, we horde stuff and think that it is the stuff which defines our essence. We collect a title, a posse, a car, a lifestyle. We attach ourselves to these manifest things as if they signify who we are. But when the lightning strikes, suddenly these things are silly. The car feels trendy. The title feels worthless. The lifestyle feels like a sham. These things are hard to let go of, but we do so because they no longer have the same appeal. If we do not allow these things to return to the material world, we run the risk of blockading our pathway toward the dim light of the star.

Thus. the flower and the butterfly depict the potential for self-transformation which lie coiled in the simple act of release which accompanies a genuine discovery of faith. For the Tao does not allow hording or collecting. To live in the Tao is to allow the Tao to move through you. Unless you release the attachments which would stifle the faith the you now see before you, you will not have the fluidity to nourish the new things which are ready to find their way into your life.

And now, with our vision of the star clear and our pathway forward unblocked, we may step forward in faith, bringing the cycle into its final phase, the Experience of the Spirit.

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. The excursion of which you speak and the process of disassociation is most usually linked with that archetype you call Hope which we would prefer to call Faith. This archetype is the Catalyst of the Spirit and, because of the illuminations of the Potentiator of the Spirit, will begin to cause these changes in the adept’s viewpoint.

my own view of this card is that it is related to Desire.

We have a sea of stars above our heads each night; to which will we anchor our hopes and dreams? which path will we follow?

we have the choice to which star guides us ... and a blocked expression of the Star of Hope results in depression ... in which one sees NO STARS at all, no hope in the earthly experience, no point in living at all.

the matrix and the potentiator (the Devil and the Tower) work in tandem to generate the catalyst ... the Star.

what do you desire RIGHT NOW? where is the spirit pointing your compass?

the spirit gives meaning and purpose to the workings of the Mind and Body. That is why so-called hardcore atheists and nihilists have such a closed view of the world. It is bleak, because to them, there is no meaning to anything.

(11-12-2012, 03:56 AM)plenum Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. The excursion of which you speak and the process of disassociation is most usually linked with that archetype you call Hope which we would prefer to call Faith. This archetype is the Catalyst of the Spirit and, because of the illuminations of the Potentiator of the Spirit, will begin to cause these changes in the adept’s viewpoint.

my own view of this card is that it is related to Desire.

We have a sea of stars above our heads each night; to which will we anchor our hopes and dreams? which path will we follow?

we have the choice to which star guides us ... and a blocked expression of the Star of Hope results in depression ... in which one sees NO STARS at all, no hope in the earthly experience, no point in living at all.

the matrix and the potentiator (the Devil and the Tower) work in tandem to generate the catalyst ... the Star.

what do you desire RIGHT NOW? where is the spirit pointing your compass?

the spirit gives meaning and purpose to the workings of the Mind and Body. That is why so-called hardcore atheists and nihilists have such a closed view of the world. It is bleak, because to them, there is no meaning to anything.

I like this interpretation and it makes me think of a connection between the Star and the Hermit (at least in the Rider-Waite deck) who is led by his caged star.

(10-18-2012, 11:59 AM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-18-2012, 11:18 AM)Patrick Wrote: [ -> ]In summary, Faith is the catalyst of the spirit ?

That is my interpretation.

Mine too. As insightul and as important as the Ra Material is to all of us, we really have little basis but to take its truths "on faith." It's that dang Law of Confusion in operation. Except possibly for those lucky few who have a psychological/spiritual experience (lightening struck tower) which can give such a person more "knowing" less "faithing" view of reality, the rest of us are left with faith.

When we adopt the idea of polarity. When we choose STS or STO. When we act (word, thought and deed) in accordance with these teachings, we do so entirely on Faith. That faith is the catalyst that we believe/hope will actually make a difference.

It's a pretty powerful card in that it makes this forum meaningful.

I walk in faith of an afterlife, but have not experienced anything that would convince me of that. Or at least a good afterlife.

I certainly don't have a knowing of much.

(10-18-2012, 01:16 AM)spero Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.lawofone.info/images/large/tarot17.jpg
i always thoughts she was pouring water on two patches of earth. one brings forth beauty (STO) the other takes and gives nothing (STS). if spirit (water) is an energy that can be hoarded perhaps that's why the STS side is also visualized as a lake/pond

Agree. The right hand pouring on the lands is "fruitful" in that faith by the STO person results in work and assistance to "otherself." But the STS path has no need for faith at all. Such a person has equal access to it, but the nurturing aspects of faith are rejected by the STS person who merely returns those energies, unused, aback into the pool of spirit. (Water in all the cards is symbolic of the vast potential of spirit. Moving waters is spirit in action.) The STS person does not need faith because their energies and activities are devoted to the practical of self here and now.

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The Devil Card (15) shows hooded humans. If the Mind (card 1) is clear seeing (figure has full vision in the card to show that the intellect is fully present and aware), and the Body (card 8) is not seeing (figure is blindfolded in the card to show that the body consciousness is not available to us consciously, and that it operates automatically), then the hooded figures represent a form of complete blindness to spirit.

We have no living senses, while incarnate here, that know we are spritual beings. We cannot hear the Music of the Spheres. We cannot sense or communicate with our dead loved ones. We are spiritually blind in those hoods.

Faith allows us to work on spirit, sensed barely in the starlight. We can't "feel" spirit, but if we have faith that there really is such a thing, then we can still work on spirit despite our blindness.

All of us on this forum are testament to this process and how it works as Catalyst.

My interpretation:

The Catalyst of the Spirit represents growth. While the Potentiator of the Spirit represents the end result of rigid structure and separation, the Catalyst of the Spirit represents the dynamic, flowing nature of the Spirit.

The Catalyst of the Spirit can be seen as the representation of Faith. Faith is the celestial and spiritual counterpart of the terrestrial and natural instinct of biological reproduction. Physical evolution, with time, produces biological progress. Faith is what moves and directs spiritual evolution in the world. In so far as it moves, it is an objective force and in so far as it orients and directs, it is a subjective light. Faith is how we can shuttle between worlds. It’s how we can access the inspirations and intuitions of Spirit.

The Catalyst of the Spirit provides the fertile land of the mind with inspiration from the deep ocean of infinite potential. It waters the mind and provides for the growth of potentiated action.

Likewise, the Catalyst of Spirit also returns to the Ocean the unique gem of knowledge gained from the experience of the catalyst.

But.... what spirit is? Is self consciousness? Is self-awareness? Those two are the ones that represent third density which is the density when the mind/body becomes mind/body/spirit complex. Is happiness sadness compassion hatred part of the spirit?  If we have a good understanding of what spirit means as part of a human beingness we can understand what spirit catalyst is.

For me the only valid image of the archetype is the one from Egypt. I interpret it as poring water on ground mean growth while poring water on water is waste.  The star above clearly has polarity connotation but up and down and not right and left.

Good questions. I'm not sure if anyone can give a definitive answer. I understand it as a "shuttle", or a "link" between this world and the Divine, or "true" reality. Basically, it is buried deep within our mind, below even the unconscious.

We get "impressions" from the Spirit in the form of inspirations and likewise, the Spirit gets "impressions" from the feedback it receives when we act on those impressions.

I disagree about the part where you mention waste as technically nothing is wasteful for the One. All experiences are valuable.

(06-09-2021, 12:53 PM)dreamoftheiris Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree about the part where you mention waste as technically nothing is wasteful for the One.  All experiences are valuable.

Spirit adding water to both land and water can be seen iconographically as Spirit enspiriting the first density elements.  In other words, it can be seen as depicting the movement from experiencing Nature and Life as mere outward, physical happenstance towards experiencing them as Spirit flowing inter-dimensionally within and without as a sacramental evanescent sparkle of divine energy. 

How might such an experience of self as such then transform a experiencer?
  

(06-09-2021, 12:53 PM)dreamoftheiris Wrote: [ -> ]Good questions.  I'm not sure if anyone can give a definitive answer. I understand it as a "shuttle", or a "link" between this world and the Divine, or "true" reality.  Basically, it is buried deep within our mind, below even the unconscious.

We get "impressions" from the Spirit in the form of inspirations and likewise, the Spirit gets "impressions" from the feedback it receives when we act on those impressions.  

I disagree about the part where you mention waste as technically nothing is wasteful for the One.  All experiences are valuable.

I was thinking about the "location" (I couldn't find a better word) in beingness where the +/- polarity is stored. Definitely is not the mind IMO. Mind stores memories but how we feel about those memories must be stored in what is called spirit. When we remember our childhood we sometimes feel happiness sometimes feel sadness sometimes we feel love sometimes hate. That something that associates a feeling (positive or negative) with any intellectual thought is the spirit. We are committed to STS or STO spiritually and not mentally or physically. The body is the interface with the catalysts. The mind is the engine that processes the catalyst received through our senses from the body and the spirit is the storage of the catalyst effect on beingness.

This is at least partially inline with what Ra was saying when Don asked about what the fifth density negative entity is after when he wants to eliminate Carla. Ra says he is after her polarity which is a type of spiritual power and not a mind power.

But feeling can be so diverse for example fear or hatred are feelings but first is more of a primal (second density) nature while second seems to be of spiritual (third density) nature. None of the two feelings belong to mind. So in my mind the catalyst of spirit is the catalyst that causes us to feel more separated from someone or something or closer from someone or something.
It is hard to distinguish from the catalyst of mind but the catalyst of mind is in charge with generating the thought which generates the feeling which are then recorded first in memory second in spirit.

For highly polarized people any event will only cause a certain type of feeling (separation or closeness). For most of us different events can cause different feelings (some separation some closeness) which mean spiritually we are not yet committed to any of the paths.

In lowly polarized people mind drives the spirit and it relies on Logos catalyst. In highly polarized people spirit drives the mind and they design their own catalyst. For the less evolved people Logos catalyst is more random. For more evolved people catalyst tends to be more uniform. So if you feel that you are constantly unlucky it just might be you are quite advanced on your path

(06-09-2021, 01:10 PM)Sacred Fool Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2021, 12:53 PM)dreamoftheiris Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree about the part where you mention waste as technically nothing is wasteful for the One.  All experiences are valuable.

Spirit adding water to both land and water can be seen iconographically as Spirit enspiriting the first density elements.  In other words, it can be seen as depicting the movement from experiencing Nature and Life as mere outward, physical happenstance towards experiencing them as Spirit flowing inter-dimensionally within and without as a sacramental evanescent sparkle of divine energy. 

How might such an experience of self as such then transform a experiencer?
  

I agree "waste" is not the best word because at the end of the day experience is what matters in creation. But what I wanted to say with "waste" is "waste of effort" because eventually the negative path disappears. It is like building something which is eventually destined to vanish while pouring water on ground is building something everlasting. Water on ground results is transformation represented by the flower which feeds the spirit represented by the butterfly. Water on water is a misled effort ultimately does not cause the change you hope for. This is why the polarity of the star is up and down. Positive polarity bring you closer to the Creator by you choosing to be closer to its creation. Negative polarity despite wanting to be closer to the Creator it is closer to the illusion by trying to separate themselves from the creation and ultimately from Creator.