Bring4th

If reincarnation exists, then why would all these souls keep programming incarnations where they don't believe in reincarnation?

Might have something to do with the veil of confusion. Might also be love of Christ.

I would argue that, Tenet.

Jesus spoke in parables because he knew we would be led astray. Through parables, the meaning and context of his teachings could be less twisted, as they dealt with concepts rather than specifics.

In the same way, if we take the specifics away from Christ's story, what do we see? More than anything, what Christ conveyed was that this life was only a track leading to something greater. Jesus ultimately showed us this with his 'resurrection' or return from beyond the veil. That is the greatest teaching of Jesus, even in mainstream Christian thought - this world is a setup for the 'next', whether we call that heaven or something else. What Jesus proved to us was that life existed beyond the grave. He came back.

The church has done a good job of squelching this message, so from that point of view I understand what you are saying. People have been taught to misinterpret the most basic and obvious lessons that Christ gave us. I don't know if the ideas of reincarnation are that much different from 'life after death', but if that is purely what you meant, then I am sorry for misunderstanding you. I just think the 'afterlife' and the concept of reincarnation to overlap a bit... I could also be way further out in left field than I realize too

I think most gnostic Christians believe in reincarnation, and I think when you look at the New Testament there are a lot of hints towards the possibility of reincarnation. I figure that's what Jesus was talking about whenever he mentions "everlasting life." Also There is some hinting towards John the Baptist being a reincarnation of the prophet Elijah, though that is a controversial point.

I think that ultimately the Christian Religion is deeply flawed in some of it's dogma and practices, but still offers a true seeker a path to some understanding of the Law of One. I feel that I have incarnated as a Zen Buddhist, a Tibetan Buddhist and a Christian in recent incarnations and I chose to be a Christian again in this one.

I can think of many, many reasons. Let me start by telling you that my Mom - who was a fundamentalist preacher - and I - who is not - had many discussions along these lines when she was still here.

For one thing, a belief/knowing of reincarnation is not really necessary to spiritual growth. The message of love God/Creator first and love your neighbor as yourself is really all we need to practice to move from so called 3D to 4D. And it has been my experience in this life that even though Christ's message has been misinterpreted/misapplied by organised religion, I still have felt more loved, unconditionally, anywhere on the planet from any other peoples than from Christians who really apply this message.

The one thing my Mom and I always agreed upon was this. Whether you only incarnate once, or many many times, learning how to love unconditionally should be your main focus while you are here.

Another possibility that has come to me in more recent days is that we have been incarnated as Christians in other lifetimes and "got it wrong". So we come here again as Christians to try to get it right this time. Isn't that really a recurring theme for anyone reincarnating? To keep coming here until we get it right and learn the lessons we are meant to learn? Or to pay the debts we have created for ourselves?

Is dogma ever not flawed?

I think the reason people end up "being" Christian is that they are raised in it, are shown other abrahamic faiths as counterpoints, marginalize the others. By the time they are really able to understand the different faiths, they are comfortable with where they are, and will incorporate aspects other faiths into their own spirituality.

I have a theory, which I've actually suggested to some Christians, but they didn't like it very much. :-/

The theory is that the real 'test' from God (as the Christians view God) isn't to be lucky enough or smart enough to choose the 'right' religion in order to get their ticket, but to be able to discern good from evil.

In other words: Evangelical Christians think that as long as they accept the Bible without question, and 'accept Jesus as their savior' then they are 'saved.' I proposed to them that, what if, just what if, they got it wrong? What if the real test was whether they could pick out the parts of the Bible that were false or even downright evil?

Thus, by blindly accepting the whole thing as the 'word of God' they would actually be failing the test, because they'd be accepting evil as good.

Case in point: Right now, many evangelical Christians think it's ok for Israel to occupy the Palestinians' land and commit atrocious acts of violence against the Palestinians, who are viewed as 'inferior' because their ancestors were from the bastard tribe.

This is bigotry, plain and simple! It's condoning violence based on the idea that one group of people is superior to another.

Anyone with any morals could see right off that it's bigotry. Only because it's Israel, do they miss the obvious. They miss it because, in their minds, Israel is special, "God's chosen ones."

What if, just what if, God's intention all along was for them to recognize this as bigotry, rather than accepting it and supporting it? What if to blindly accept all of the bible, is to flunk the test?

Thus, these same souls might keep reincarnating, again and again, NOT so that they can 'choose the right religion' but so that they might have an opportunity to question what they've been taught. The religion sort of serves as a veil...a veil within a veil so to speak. They've chosen an even thicker veil than the rest of us...they must first claw their way out of the veil of dogma, before even getting to the outer veil.

It's just a theory.

(11-16-2012, 02:54 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]If reincarnation exists, then why would all these souls keep deciding to come back as Christians that don't believe in reincarnation?

For the experience this provides.

Quote: Another possibility that has come to me in more recent days is that we have been incarnated as Christians in other lifetimes and "got it wrong". So we come here again as Christians to try to get it right this time

This is exactly it.

Although I don't really understand why the "christian" label is used for this concept. Might as well ask why keep coming back as a certain race or in a particular geography.

It may be helpful to take into consideration the "team" that incarnates as well, and what purpose there might be in the interactions from within a certain range of programming.

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do" - they are a program not yet hitting that point of consciousness we take for granted.

I "incarnated into" Christianity, then chose to break out of it and believe something else. I would not be who I am had I not lived for 20 years in a strongly dogmatic household. It only influenced me to be that much more independent, willful and free-thinking. I know plenty of other seekers with similar if not identical experiences- growing up in a religious household was what prompted them to search for something more, because, though their upbringing helped them to understand the value of a higher power, they realized their religious experience was not fulfilling. Had I been raised a liberal I might simply be one of the indifferent masses at this point.

There are so many different factors that go into pre-incarnative planning and programming that I think trying to categorize soul choices is a little absurd. These things have to be taken on an individual basis, and even then it's hard for our veiled selves to truly fathom what went on behind the scenes before we were born into this world.

If belief in reincarnation or any semblance of an afterlife were a major benefit to spiritual growth, I feel like attainable knowledge would be more forthcoming.

I'm sure the reason that any entity incarnates as a Christian is unique to that entity, and is likely conducive to whatever path is chosen for their life cycle.

I had a thought the other day that all different major religions are really like classrooms. We incarnate into certain cultures/religions to learn the requisite lessons. Each teacher/archetype/school has different strengths and weaknesses. Religion is just another template through which we can learn. I'd imagine those of us born into strict, dogmatic upbringings planned as much for ourselves; maybe building on Monica's theory, a great lesson to learn in 3D is accepting a concept but applying the same judgment against it as you would the opposing concept. Balancing everything, more or less. That makes a bunch of sense to myself.

because christianity has been manipulated into becoming the predominant religion over the course of systematic media blackout concerning anything deemed subversive by our cultures benefactors

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sometimes i want to just buy 50 LOO books and set up a table and with a big ass sign that says will not do stupid readings with stupid machines

(11-16-2012, 02:54 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]If reincarnation exists, then why would all these souls keep deciding to come back as Christians that don't believe in reincarnation?

Christians are the plurality and it is the easy way if you grow up around it. Actually, most Christians are very focused on service. I grew up in an atheist household even though my Grandpa is a Lutheran minister. It took me some time to realize that many Christians are dedicated to service.

I decided to be born into a Catholic family/bloodline myself. So I suppose that's why I gave the example of a Christian, rather than say a Muslim. And yes, Christianity and reincarnation (transmigration of souls, metempsychosis) are not mutually exclusive, especially in consideration of the Gnostic texts.

But what I mean is... consider the pre-incarnative scenario where there is no veil. If reincarnation exists, then everybody already knows about it.

So then, why program these incarnations with the belief that this is our "one and only" life? There must be some kind of strategic advantage to pulling the wool over one's own eyes to such a degree...

I grew up in a mostly Buddhist household and culture (except for my father who was a non-believing Baptist and us kids were not religious at all). Talking about re-incarnation was a dinner table/party conversation. Yet knowing one's past life didn't quite translate to anything more than 'oh how amusing, you were a ___ in your past life' for most people I know.

My comment applies to those that repeat the same experiences. REincarnation only exists within our linear perception. So our lessons will include it.

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Those truly helpless are those who have not consciously chosen but who repeat patterns without knowledge of the repetition or the meaning of the pattern.

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you are experiencing the third-dimensional occurrence with a large number of those who must repeat the cycle. The orientation, thus, has been difficult to unify even with the aid of many of your teach/learners.

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While I find myself to be a program, there is the potential for the formation of intelligent identity/personality as well.

who says people "keep reincarnating into christianity"?

how do you know?

do people who are religious even get to plan their incarnation?


Lynn i was brought up with no religion and i wasn't really indifferent because i've always had my own beliefs about aliens and sprites and gnomes and elves, but i guess i wa sindifferent by not having much fire in my belly for or against because noone had pushed me in either direction. that's why i had life catalyst that made me forceful in seeking truth. life will find a way.

It isn't the Belief System in itself but being in such a state of limitation that provides the immense catalyst in the first place. The opportunity to do so is fantastic in it's own right.

And let's not forget, the majority of the Earths adherents don't really ascribe to the notion of reincarnation (From our linear time perspective) in the first place.

^ Of course, this would be from the Oversouls POV. One will find that such souls will keep on reincarnating in such situations because they are in a sense 'picking right off' from where they left off simply because they don't know any better, without the innate knowledge of who they truly are. They, like us, are programmed to keep reincarnating until a 'critical mass' is reached within their consciousness, when they realize that 'there must be a better way', forcing them to seek further, causing a shift as a result. As Bashar says, we all keep incarnating to 'get it out of our system', and from which we can then 'evolve' in a sense. The common reoccurring themes in each of our incarnations is also indicative of such, and that they will not changed until they are dealt/faced. You will find 'Life' shoves certain circumstances in your face each time, and it will increase until you are forced to deal with it in a sense, growing as a result. We are all on a path of reintegration. Incarnating helps one on path to reintegration with source.

Most make the choices on an unconscious level, rather than conscious. The aim is to make the choices conscious. But you must have the awareness that you have a choice in the first place to do so (Going hand in hand with knowing who you really are).

I was born into a very strict religious background. I myself was also until a year or so back. The notion of reincarnation was ludicrous to me, and still is to my family. Breaking free and undoing the conditioning wasn't easy, but boy am I glad I did, and I feel much stronger as a person. It has actually propelled me forward many times more than If I were born into a neutral household.

It takes a strong consciousness to choose to incarnate in such states of limitations. All you guys here are doing awesome. Well done.

(11-17-2012, 06:22 AM)Oceania Wrote: [ -> ]who says people "keep reincarnating into christianity"?

how do you know?

I know because I did it myself. Or at least so I think!

Quote:do people who are religious even get to plan their incarnation?

To some degree. Even if it is an entity's first incarnation- surely they know what they are about to do. Or are you saying it is totally unconscious?

(11-16-2012, 02:54 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]If reincarnation exists, then why would all these souls keep deciding to come back as Christians that don't believe in reincarnation?

To make that statement, you must be assuming they are the same souls. Simply look at the population growth.

Ra says souls who are aware of certain things get to plan their incarnation, for others it's random.

(11-17-2012, 07:49 AM)Horuseus Wrote: [ -> ]It takes a strong consciousness to choose to incarnate in such states of limitations.

What does this even mean? What is your basis for comparison of relative strengths of consciousness?

i don't see religious upbringing anymore limiting than growing up in a household where your parents beat you or make you be and atheist or some other crap.

I'm just putting this here

(11-17-2012, 01:44 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-16-2012, 02:54 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]If reincarnation exists, then why would all these souls keep deciding to come back as Christians that don't believe in reincarnation?

To make that statement, you must be assuming they are the same souls. Simply look at the population growth.

So you would speculate that most of these are in their first incarnation? But even so, there is some knowledge of what they are getting themselves into.

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Anyway, I was just sort of wondering out loud. Still seems to me there must be some reason for this. Roughly 1/2 of the world's population is born into a paradigm which says we only live one physical life. The difficulties inherent with this sort of attitude are, I think, rather obvious. So I was just thinking, maybe there is some advantage to offset these difficulties that I was unaware of. Like maybe it generates a greater propensity for polarization... but then again I can see how it could lessen that propensity as well.

Also- what does this mean for the "YCYOR" folks? If we really, truly believe that we only take one physical incarnation... does that actually become "our reality"? I am inclined to say no.

It may not necessarily have to do with the reincarnation paradigm in general, but thought patterns/collective karma they aren't breaking free from that need to be dealt with first. Sexual control, lack of acceptance, hindrance of free thought, the holy war etc. Alleviation of those distortions would allow the seeking process to progress.

Quote:Roughly 1/2 of the world's population is born into a paradigm which says we only live one physical life. The difficulties inherent with this sort of attitude are, I think, rather obvious.

Could this purely be the veil in action?

If it was easy to 'remember', we would no longer be behind the veil, no? Maybe these decisions are made in order to ensure progress as opposed to 'easy mode'?

Hogey awesome post!!

I found the following on googling "jedi way of life" http://altreligion.about.com/od/beliefsa...chings.htm - it's actually quite a nice philosophy!!:

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This document is available in several forms among multiple groups following Jedi Religion. This particular version is presented by Temple of the Jedi Order. All of these statements are based on the presentation of the Jedi in the movies. The Jedi Sanctuary offers a slightly longer version that includes relevant movie quotes as evidence.

1. As Jedi, we are in touch with the Living Force flowing through and around us, as well as being spiritually aware of the Force. Jedi are trained to become sensitive to the Force's energy, fluctuations, and disturbances.

2. Jedi live and focus on the present; we must neither dwell on the past nor be overly concerned about the future. As the mind wanders, focusing on the present is a task not easily attained, for the mind is not content with the eternal present moment. As Jedi, we must release our stress and ease our minds.

3. Jedi must maintain a clear mind; this is achieved through meditation and contemplation. Our minds can become cluttered and infected by forces and attitudes that we encounter every day, and must be purged of these unnecessary elements on a daily basis.

4. As Jedi, we are mindful of our thoughts... we focus our thoughts on the positive. The positive energy of the force is healthy for the mind, body and spirit.

5. As Jedi, we trust and use our feelings. We are intuitive, more so than others and with this heightened intuition we become more spiritually evolved as our minds become more harmonious with the Force and its influences.

6. Jedi are patient. Patience is elusive but can be consciously developed over time.

7. Jedi are mindful of the negative emotions which lead to the Dark Side: Anger, Fear, Aggression, and Hate. If we sense these emotions manifesting within ourselves, we must meditate on the Jedi Code and focus on purging these destructive emotions.

8. Jedi understand that physical training is as important as training the mind and the spirit. We understand that all aspects of training are necessary to maintain the Jedi way of life and to perform the duties of a Jedi.

9. Jedi protect the peace. We are warriors of peace, and are not ones to use force to resolve a conflict; it is through peace, understanding and harmony that conflicts resolve.

10. Jedi believe in destiny and trust in the will of the Living Force. We accept the fact that what seems to be random events are not random at all, but the design of the Living Force of Creation. Each living creature has a purpose, understanding that purpose comes with a deep awareness of the Force. Even things that happen which seem negative have a purpose, though that purpose is not easy to see.

11. Jedi must let go of obsessive attachment, both material and personal. The obsession over possessions creates the fear of loosing those possessions, which can lead to the Dark Side.

12. Jedi believe in eternal life. We do not become obsessed in mourning those who pass. Grieve as you will but take heart, for the soul and spirit continue in the netherworld of the Living Force.

13. Jedi use the Force only when it is necessary. We do not apply our abilities or powers to boast or be prideful. We use the Force for knowledge, and exercise wisdom and humility in doing so, for humility is a trait all Jedi must embody.

14. We as Jedi believe that love and compassion are central to our lives. We must love each other as we love ourselves; by doing this, we envelope all life in the positive energy of the Force.

15. Jedi are guardians of peace and justice. We believe in finding peaceful solutions to problems, gifted as we are we remain negotiators of the utmost ability. We never negotiate out of fear, but never fear to negotiate. We embrace justice, protecting and preserving the fundamental rights of all living creatures. Empathy and compassion are vital to us; it allows us to comprehend the wounds caused by injustice.

16. We as Jedi make a commitment to, and are loyal to the Jedi cause. The ideals, philosophies, and practices of the Jedi define the belief of Jediism, and we take action on this path for self-improvement, and to help others. We are both the witnesses and protectors of the Jedi way by the practice of our Faith.

(11-18-2012, 11:37 AM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-17-2012, 01:44 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-16-2012, 02:54 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: [ -> ]If reincarnation exists, then why would all these souls keep deciding to come back as Christians that don't believe in reincarnation?

To make that statement, you must be assuming they are the same souls. Simply look at the population growth.

So you would speculate that most of these are in their first incarnation? But even so, there is some knowledge of what they are getting themselves into.

It's an expression of the 4th sub density here, so no not 1st incarnation by far. However an important one because around that stage is when you start choosing your incarnations. Look up blue valuing meme.