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Zachary

How do you all feel about putting animals to sleep, when they are very old and in pain?

I have been wondering about this in regard to the idea of non-interference..sure we want to do whats best for our pets...but...how do we really know when our pet is "ready to go"?

Some people, when they get older, experience a lot of pain in their bodies and loss of energy..but how often do you see them being 'put to sleep'?

what do you all think?

Cyan

I wouldn't put an animal to sleep unless its death was imminent (few hours) and it was in pain (broken bones etc right now with no hope of help such as an uninhabited island)
(02-02-2013, 07:34 AM)Cyan Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't put an animal to sleep unless its death was imminent (few hours) and it was in pain (broken bones etc right now with no hope of help such as an uninhabited island)

I agree with Cyan on this one. It's a very sensible topic but I feel animals have the same rights to live we do, even when they are old. As long as we live, there are still things we can learn, even when we are in pain because of old age. Since they are also part of consciousness, the same applies for animals who are living beings just like us. If the animal gets hit by a car and its insides are out however (sorry for the horrible image), killing it out of mercy could be tolerated. But ideally, everything in our power should be done to save the animal's life first.

This topic reminds me a comment an old lady living in my small apartment building said to me a few months ago. She was basically complaining because the neighbor above her has an old (but incredibly sweet) dog who, last summer, accidentally let himself go on the balcony. The pee fell into her plants. Displeased, she told me "it's an old dog, he should put it to sleep already!". I just looked at her, and wondered how she could not see that she too was quite old. I wondered why the dog should die and she should live, if age and incontinence were the only arguments she had to judge the animal's worth.

My point is the following; if we valued animals' lives like our own, we would not be having this discussion right now. It is only because we, as a society, still see animals as below humans, creatures of lower worth, that we wonder if we should put them to sleep when they reach a certain age.

My personal rule of thumb is that I treat my furry companions the same way I treat fellow human beings. If my grandma was sick and in pain, "putting her to sleep" would not be an option unless she'd ask for it, something very unlikely. Same goes with animals.

Cyan

How do we expect someone to evolve to a state that lasts beyond changes if we dont allow them to slowly experience the changes but expect them to always radically shift in new ways that even WE arent ready to do.
(02-02-2013, 07:34 AM)Cyan Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't put an animal to sleep unless its death was imminent (few hours) and it was in pain (broken bones etc right now with no hope of help such as an uninhabited island)

I agree with Cyan.
Cyan Wrote:
Quote:I wouldn't put an animal to sleep unless its death was imminent (few hours) and it was in pain (broken bones etc right now with no hope of help such as an uninhabited island)

Many years ago my cat Ralph had cancer in his mouth. He couldn't eat. He could have lived, hungry and in pain, for a long time. Instead I held him and loved him as I said a merciful good by.

And the there was Molly my dog. Arthritis pain, I bought stairs to help her on and off the bed. She complained about having to walk outside to do her business. Old age allergies to everything, scratching herself constantly, and chewing on the bottom of her feet. Anemia, her gums were white (as was much of her fur), and as she lost blood, she also lost energy. Her anal glands had to be constantly expressed, because they kept hardening and no longer worked. I think I kept her alive for too long, and it would have been kinder to say good by sooner. When I did say good by, she knew full well what was happening, and she didn't take her eyes off me as she grinned at me with love.

vervex wrote:
Quote:My point is the following; if we valued animals' lives like our own, we would not be having this discussion right now. It is only because we, as a society, still see animals as below humans, creatures of lower worth, that we wonder if we should put them to sleep when they reach a certain age.


I wish we respected each other human beings, as much as we do animals. Death does not exist. Another dimension of joy and love and wisdom awaits us when we die. We meet our soul group, our Teachers, our Guide(s), our Elders, our soul mate(s), our friends. I feel qualified to say this because of my near death experience when I was 25 (car "accident"), and because of the Life Between Lives (LBL) work I do as a hypnotherapist.

People in their LBL sessions have often run and danced with their deceased pets.

I'm not suicidal, but I do look forward to my death. This knowledge serves me as a constant Light of joy in my life. Helping each other die humanely would be a kindness.
A friend's dog had bloat and we rushed to the emergency animal hospital. The vet advised her of the various risks of surgery due to dog's age, and warned that she might not make it. The friend called a special hotline to see if she would qualify for a loan (specifically for vet-care). The dog's human companion didn't have the credit score to get a loan for the surgery. She made the decision to put her dog to sleep. She cared dearly for the dog and did all that she could. She exhausted every option. I think she made the best decision she could in that moment. We all wished we could help but none of us had the outrageous sum to pay for the procedure.

So I think various factors must be weighed:
1)The condition & prognosis of the animal's ailments (e.g., serious, life threatening, in a lot of pain etc.,)
2) The age of the animal
3) The human companion's capacity to access resources for veterinary care (loans or if there is time, to raise funds)
4) The companion's capacity to take care of the animal when/if animal recovers.
5) Exhausted all options (e.g., find rescue groups, fund raise, find volunteer vets to do surgery, etc.,)

Hopefully many of the options will be explored and the 'best' decision will be reached.

Zachary: Are you in a situation where you have to make this decision?

Cyan

(02-02-2013, 09:03 PM)Charles Wrote: [ -> ]Cyan Wrote:
Quote:I wouldn't put an animal to sleep unless its death was imminent (few hours) and it was in pain (broken bones etc right now with no hope of help such as an uninhabited island)

Many years ago my cat Ralph had cancer in his mouth. He couldn't eat. He could have lived, hungry and in pain, for a long time. Instead I held him and loved him as I said a merciful good by.

Or, you could have taken her to a vet that could have tried to remove the cancer and give her sufficient medication to deal with the pain in the effort to give him a chance to survive. But mercyslaughtering of pets is still slaughtering of pets. Dont get me wrong I've had pets put down and I know that it isn't always the wrong choice but stepping way from the fact that you are slaughtering a friend, you damn well better be sure its for the right motivation. Personally, in your case I would have taken the cat to a vet and asked them to try to perform a surgery on the cat in combination with holistic anticancer medication. But its not my cat, its not my cat-a-lyst and its not my choice, so, we all have our own choices. No way to know for real which is ever right.

Quote:And the there was Molly my dog. Arthritis pain, I bought stairs to help her on and off the bed. She complained about having to walk outside to do her business. Old age allergies to everything, scratching herself constantly, and chewing on the bottom of her feet. Anemia, her gums were white (as was much of her fur), and as she lost blood, she also lost energy. Her anal glands had to be constantly expressed, because they kept hardening and no longer worked. I think I kept her alive for too long, and it would have been kinder to say good by sooner. When I did say good by, she knew full well what was happening, and she didn't take her eyes off me as she grinned at me with love.

I'm sad to hear you and your pet went through such hardship. I know that most people will say you did the right thing. But I can't. I cant say that putting a pet that can live to sleep before it dies naturally is the right way to approach the concept, unless we as a society also start to euthanize people with serious medical conditions on grounds that its hard to live around them and its just kinder to put people to sleep.

If that second option happens, and we start euthanizing people on the grounds of our emotions felt towards the person suffering, then I'd prefer to move to another planet anyway.

Quote:vervex wrote:
Quote:My point is the following; if we valued animals' lives like our own, we would not be having this discussion right now. It is only because we, as a society, still see animals as below humans, creatures of lower worth, that we wonder if we should put them to sleep when they reach a certain age.


I wish we respected each other human beings, as much as we do animals. Death does not exist. Another dimension of joy and love and wisdom awaits us when we die. We meet our soul group, our Teachers, our Guide(s), our Elders, our soul mate(s), our friends. I feel qualified to say this because of my near death experience when I was 25 (car "accident"), and because of the Life Between Lives (LBL) work I do as a hypnotherapist.

Do you really think we dont think that way too?

But there is a difference between knowing, and not knowing, and this is the DENSITY OF NOT KNOWING FOR A REASON.

Its not knowing for a reason called religious wars that went on for 10.000 years.

Using religion and personal experiences for what is beyond death as justification for societal actions while living is damnation.

But thats just a personal opinion.

Quote:People in their LBL sessions have often run and danced with their deceased pets.

I'm not suicidal, but I do look forward to my death. This knowledge serves me as a constant Light of joy in my life. Helping each other die humanely would be a kindness.

I've had various meditative experiences ranging from speaking with people who live on other continents and havign such experiences confirmed to me by them later to time traveling to past (alternate) life traveling ETC.

I do not look forward to my death, because the only thing that can happen afterwards is another birth. I'm already surrounded by my soul group, my soul friends and my higher self. I'm already taken care of in ways that would put any mock or mundane religious heaven to shame. Because I value life for the living and those around me. To me, all that can happen when I die is that I'll have to learn new names for all my friends.

Instead of calling my friends what I call them now, I may have to call them something vaquely astralic after I die. Not worth the hazzle of focusing on that event, at all.

I feel that helping anyone die would be killing, helping anyone you like die in a premeditated way would be murder, helping anyone you like die in a premeditated way because you think they'll be in a better place after they die is something quite different.

Anyway. It is a hard catalyst to have, pets and friends near death. But I stand by my opinion that hastening the death of another self is in all but the rares of circumstances a disservice and will result in a karmic bond.

*hug* I hope for all the best in all pet related endeavors! Smile

(02-02-2013, 10:02 PM)rie Wrote: [ -> ]A friend's dog had bloat and we rushed to the emergency animal hospital. The vet advised her of the various risks of surgery due to dog's age, and warned that she might not make it. The friend called a special hotline to see if she would qualify for a loan (specifically for vet-care). The dog's human companion didn't have the credit score to get a loan for the surgery. She made the decision to put her dog to sleep. She cared dearly for the dog and did all that she could. She exhausted every option. I think she made the best decision she could in that moment. We all wished we could help but none of us had the outrageous sum to pay for the procedure.

So I think various factors must be weighed:
1)The condition & prognosis of the animal's ailments (e.g., serious, life threatening, in a lot of pain etc.,)
2) The age of the animal
3) The human companion's capacity to access resources for veterinary care (loans or if there is time, to raise funds)
4) The companion's capacity to take care of the animal when/if animal recovers.
5) Exhausted all options (e.g., find rescue groups, fund raise, find volunteer vets to do surgery, etc.,)

Hopefully many of the options will be explored and the 'best' decision will be reached.

Zachary: Are you in a situation where you have to make this decision?

I had a pet rabbit that I loved that we got from the animal shelter, a mean old rabbit that no one wanted, was abandonded outside and half deaf when they found her and took her into the shelter. Even had mites in her ears.

We took her in and took care of her for 4 years and she warmed up to all of us. When we found that she had a growing lump on her side I consulted all the rabbit people I knew, then took her to a good hospital and paid for the operation and recovery. The doctor told me before the operation that due to the size of the cancer and the damage to the internal organs she is very unlikely to survive. I told the doctor that the chance of survival is irrelevant, what matters is that we try, because if she wants to die, she'll die.

so they took her to the OR, they removed about 1/3rd or 1/4th of her bodymass in cancer cells. I still have the pictures. They closed her up and put her in the waiting room and hoping she would wake up. She held on for hours and hours afterward and kept improving until she died.

Before they took her to the surgery she bit on my shirt and didnt want to let go. I know she wanted to hold on till the end and kept fighting like a brave girl. But, it was not meant to be.

About a year later when I was in the astral a huge white swan approached me on a beach and just swam back and forth in front of me for a very long time then swam away. It was during the filming for a scene in a recently released movie where the main char was hallucinating a happy ending to his story. I was playing a guy in the background waving at the main char as he drives his bike with his hallucination girlfriend.

All the co-actors were silent towards me and each other for the whole duration of the time between shots and the whole area felt like a strip of heaven. Everyone had 1920's to 1960's white clothes, almost no one spoke and the tune of the shooting was a hallucinated heaven.

Smile I think I know my pets are quite alright.

EDIT: Before I have a pet, I have to figure out what its potential operations / expenses would be for all treatment options before I take one in, and then I hold the money in a side reserve until needed. So when a situation arises the money is at hand without any need to call people. I only need to call people to ask for their opinion on who is the latest best doctor in this pets field and what are the latest discoveries relating to medical science such as anasthesia or anticancer herbs etc.

But I'm a planner/architect personality. aint no disease getting past my defences and killing my friends or pets if I have anything to say about it. And I usually do.
I think I know my pets are quite alright
(02-02-2013, 09:03 PM)Charles Wrote: [ -> ]Many years ago my cat Ralph had cancer in his mouth. He couldn't eat. He could have lived, hungry and in pain, for a long time. Instead I held him and loved him as I said a merciful good by.

And the there was Molly my dog. Arthritis pain, I bought stairs to help her on and off the bed. She complained about having to walk outside to do her business. Old age allergies to everything, scratching herself constantly, and chewing on the bottom of her feet. Anemia, her gums were white (as was much of her fur), and as she lost blood, she also lost energy. Her anal glands had to be constantly expressed, because they kept hardening and no longer worked. I think I kept her alive for too long, and it would have been kinder to say good by sooner. When I did say good by, she knew full well what was happening, and she didn't take her eyes off me as she grinned at me with love.

Oh, I offer you my deepest sympathies! Heart I've had very similar experiences with some cats and dogs!

My very first Schipperke was a puppy I got from the animal shelter, for my son. We'd only had him 2 weeks when he starting vomiting and pooping all over the place. It turned out to be Parvo, even though he'd been vaccinated.

I was a stay-at-home mom at the time, and we were on a very tight budget. The vet told me he had about a 50-50 chance of survival, despite heroic measures. I put the $1500 vet bill on my credit card, despite being in dire financial straits at the time.

The puppy died anyway. But there's no way I could let him die without trying!

I had fallen in love with the breed, but I don't believe in buying purebred animals when there are so many homeless ones out there. So after that, I found other homeless Schipperkes and adopted them.

Years later, one of my Schips started acting aggressive for no apparent reason. He bit me twice. I thought it was a behavior issue so I bought dog training books and videos and started working with him. It didn't help. He just seemed constantly agitated. So I took him to the vet several times over the course of a year. They did tests but couldn't find anything wrong with him that would explain his sudden change in disposition. Oh God, I loved that dog sooooo much! I would hold him and he's snuggle on my shoulder and go to sleep. I carried him around like a baby.

His aggression was getting to be a major problem, though, because I never knew when he would suddenly decide to bite me. Schipperkes can be quite tenacious. They're known for biting and never letting go! They will attack and attack, and keep attacking like a pit bull, but normally they never attack unless there's a very good reason to. They are amazingly loving companions but will defend their humans tenaciously.

Well, here I had my beloved Gandalf behaving that way for no apparent reason. It was perplexing, because all the dog experts were at a loss. I worried about him biting a family member, so everyone knew that I was the only one who could handle him. I continued to try to figure out what was wrong with him. I tried all sorts of holistic supplements, etc. in addition to the meds the vet gave me for him.

Finally, the doctor thought to x-ray him. It turned out he had a horribly disfiguring congenital defect. His spine was misshapen. It wasn't something anyone could tell by holding him, it showed up on the x-ray. The vet said this sort of defect happened when people bred brothers and sisters. A backyard breeder had let a brother and sister mate, and the puppies could have such a defect.

This dog was a rescue (as are all my animals) so there's no way I could have known. Of course we explored all options. There was simply no way to surgically correct it. The vet said it started showing up more because he was getting older. He said Gandalf was in severe pain and it would only get worse. He prescribed some heavy-duty pain meds but they didn't seem to help much. Gandalf got to the point where he would just cower in a corner with his tail between his legs, a sure sign of distress.

I agonized for weeks over what to do. (And this was in addition to the year or so that I agonized over his strange behavior.) It was difficult, because every now and then he'd show a spark of his old self. I carried him around on my shoulder. I had to be very careful as to how I approached him, to avoid causing him any more pain (and being bitten). I didn't want to add to his pain by picking him up wrong!

I felt so bad because I realized that when he bit me, it was only because he was in pain. I talked to him and asked him what he wanted me to do. I cried buckets. I cried as someone would cry over a human family member.

I told him to give me a sign in my dream. And he did. He wanted to leave. Having him euthanized was the merciful thing to do.

Gandalf was 1 of 3 rescued Schips I had at the time. It turned out that a little female, Draca, also had a congenital problem because of incestuous backyard breeding. Hers manifested as a heart problem. She would be fine, but if she exerted, she would start gasping and then pass out. The vet said she had a hugely enlarged heart. We put her on meds but the diarrhea side effect was so bad she had to stay outside all day. That wasn't acceptable. I made the decision to take her off the meds, since they weren't really helping anyway, and keep her inside where she could get lots of love. She was a very emotionally needy dog and I couldn't bear the thought of her being cut off from the family because of constant diarrhea! Or worse, her dying outside, forlorn and alone.

So I kept her inside and tried to keep her calm. That was nearly impossible because, like most Schips, she had a very excitable, exuberant personality. She would all excited at the slightest thing. Every time she got excited, she would start gasping and pass out. And every time that happened, I rushed to her side and held her close, hugging her and loving her, in case this was her last breath. I wanted her to be loved at the moment of death. I wanted to be there with her.

There was never any reason to consider getting her euthanized, because her quality of life was still great. She wasn't in pain. She was happy and living a good life. She just sometimes passed out! I knew that any time now, when she passed out she wouldn't wake up again. I decided to let nature run its course.

Of course, I had to let her outside to go potty. I tried to keep constant watch over her, and most of the time was always there, just in case. But, one of the few times I wasn't there to rush to her side, turned out to be the one. She died exactly 2 weeks after Gandalf.

That left my 3rd Schip, MidKnight. I was astounded that he somehow managed to outlive the 2 younger dogs. MidKnight was very old. I really don't know how old, because he too was a rescue. He was at least 15, but since we don't know how old he was when he was rescued off the city street, he could have been 20, who knows?

His arthritis was so bad I had to pick him up and carry him outside in the morning to go potty. My husband and I used to nudge him to see if he was still alive. He had always had a wonderful disposition, but because of the arthritis pain, he would growl and grumble whenever we disturbed his sleep. But I had to take him outside before leaving for the day, so it couldn't be helped. He would struggle to walk a few feet. He was clearly in severe pain.

He was also completely blind and deaf. His eyes were milky white. His once-gorgeous black fur was now 25% white. Because he was blind and deaf, he was completely cut off from us, except for when I held him.

For the past couple of winters, I had to put a sweater on him. He had gotten bony and got chilled easily. I remember one time he'd been outside because it was a lovely, sunny day, when a sudden coldfront blew in (as happens here in Texas...it can be 80 degrees then an hour later be 40.) He was shivering so I wrapped him in a blanket and just held him close to warm him up. It took 30 minutes for him to relax and quit shivering. I felt awful that I hadn't known about the coldfront blowing in.

I tried the natural stuff like glucosamine etc. but nothing helped. So I dutifully gave him the prescription pain meds from the vet. I guess it helped some, but not much. Or maybe he got immune to it. We tried switching meds but he just wasn't getting any better.

I was seriously thinking it was time to have him euthanized, because I didn't want him suffering. But I put off doing it out of selfishness. I loved that dog more than any other dog I'd ever had. He was my baby! I knew it was time, but I selfishly kept trying to just keep him as comfortable as I could. I made sure his bed was soft and warm, and carried him outside to go potty, and cleaned up his vomit.

Finally, just when I was about to do the deed, I got a water ionizer for my own health problems. Now before anyone accuses me of deftly sliding in a sales pitch, look, I'm sorry but this is what happened, so I'm going to include it. It's part of the story.

After 2 weeks of drinking this water, MidKnight woke us up at 6am, running and prancing like a puppy! I was astounded! I opened the back door and he literally zoomed outside!!! The water got rid of his pain! (I found out later it does this for humans too, quite reliably. But at the time I had no idea it would do that. Had I known, I would have bought the machine just for my dog!)

He was a totally different dog. It was like he was 5 years younger. No sign of pain whatsoever, ever again. Some of his fur turned black again. (not all but some) 6 months later, his eyes were mostly brown again. He could see and play fetch! It didn't help his hearing much, though. He was still deaf.

He lived almost 4 more years! I'm not sure what the equivalent is in human years, but that's a pretty long time for an already-old dog. He had a great quality of life. He never showed any more sign of pain at all. He acted like his younger self again for the most part. He was sparky, energetic, and would prance the way Schips do.

Finally, heartworms got him in the end. I'd been religious about heartworm prevention, so I don't know why he got them. Maybe he already had them when I got him. Maybe it was the Texas mosquitoes. Maybe I missed a month and they got a foothold. I don't know. But he was clearly suffering. After 3 1/2 years of doing great, he suddenly went downhill. He spent most of his time alternating between scratching and gagging. A few times he suddenly vomited and gasped so hard for air that I thought he was dying. The vet said heartworm treatment is too traumatic for elderly dogs so that wasn't an option. I tried a homeopathic heartworm remedy and it helped for awhile, but the heartworms got so agitated when I gave it to him, that it was very traumatic for him, so I didn't want to subject him to that either.

He was clearly miserable. So once again, just a few months after Gandalf and Draca had died, I was faced with the decision. Once again I cried buckets and agonized. But my decision was clear. There was no question that he was ready to go, and was depending on me to lovingly guide him to his next experience.

It's easy to say "No one should ever have an animal euthanized but should always let them die on their own" but it's quite another to be in that situation.

We cannot judge the actions of another who makes this decision. We have no idea what they went through...how much they agonized...or what we would have done in the same situation.

Nor can we say that euthanizing an animal is always wrong. I don't think there is a simple, black-and-white guideline on this. The important thing is that we make the most loving decision possible, under the circumstances.

(02-02-2013, 09:03 PM)Charles Wrote: [ -> ]I wish we respected each other human beings, as much as we do animals.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Millions of animals are brutally slaughtered every single day, unnecessarily, to satisfy humans' craving for the taste of meat. Millions of dogs and cats run the streets, abandoned and starving, until they die a violent death on the street, or die of starvation, or are brutally killed in a gas chamber at the city pound. So I'm not sure what you mean by "respecting humans as much as we do animals."

(02-02-2013, 09:03 PM)Charles Wrote: [ -> ]Helping each other die humanely would be a kindness.

I agree. But, the difficult part is in knowing if that's truly what the other person wants. Legally allowing this for humans would open up a can of worms, because sick/elderly/drugged people are easily taken advantage of.

But at least we can do it for our pets who are suffering. We can lovingly guide them on their way. I'm in agreement with you on that, Charles.
I had one dog that would almost constantly growl at me and the vet. The vet told me that he was not good for me to have because he could attack. The vet had to put a muzzle on him to treat his ears for mites. The dog never bit me, but he ended up dying one May day. When I came home I found him dead outside. Probably was heatstroke. I don't remember why. I cried about that, but I usually get over things pretty quickly. I only had him about 2 years. He was already grown when I got him, so I wasn't attached as if I had raised him from a puppy.

Zachary

Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences on the matter. It has been very eye opening.

(02-02-2013, 10:02 PM)rie Wrote: [ -> ]Zachary: Are you in a situation where you have to make this decision?

No, I am not. I'm just curious as to what you alls opinions on the subject are.
On a lighter note:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuU5Dvw_t5c

These aren't mine, but this is exactly what it looks like at our house! Except there are 2 Schips and 9 cats!

Sometimes it looks more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62TPs4M3c...=endscreen
I will keep my reply brief..

As a care worker of 20 years, who specializes in end of life [hospice] I am fully open to euthanasia, for people and animal friends alike. I, myself, do not wish to live beyond a certain state of health -if I am unable to either prevent, or remedy an ailment holistically [surgery and conventional medication are entirely out of the question for me] my choice is to end this life experience and move on. I am aware of potential death dates well in advance of them.. I have by-passed 3 of my own already, choosing to stay and continue to work. The next, which I do not feel I will by-pass is open, and will occur at any given point between now and my 63rd year; which I consider an exceptionally long lifetime in a reality system such as this one. I carry all this forward to those I come to work with and help care for.
Have you heard of the euthanasia rollercoaster?

Very sad story Bring4th_Monica, but it shows you truly did your utmost best for your companions, and that's wonderful. If you were sure your pet was ready to go, which under the situation you explain seems to be the case, then it's the right thing to do. Personally, what creates some resistance within me is when I see people putting their pets to sleep because they don't want to take care of them as they grow old, or worse, because they don't care for the pet anymore regardless of the age. It's so common... and it breaks my heart.

Thanks for sharing your story. It's inspiring.
(02-04-2013, 01:48 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Very sad story Bring4th_Monica, but it shows you truly did your utmost best for your companions, and that's wonderful. If you were sure your pet was ready to go, which under the situation you explain seems to be the case, then it's the right thing to do.

I have more stories. I'll tell just 1 more. We had a cat with a tumor in her ear. The vet said she had about a 50-50 chance of surviving surgery, because of her advanced age and heart problem. He said if we did nothing she would probably have a good quality of life for a couple more years.

So we were faced with the difficult decision: Have the surgery and risk her dying, or take our chances. We decided to take our chances, since she was so old anyway. We wanted to have as much time with her as possible.

I ended up regretting that decision. The vet was wrong; her quality of life degenerated. Her condition worsened. We tried all sorts of things that didn't work, and she ended up in pain. (This was before I had the water and other resources that I know about now.) But, if we had opted for the surgery and she had died, then I'd have regrets too. So there was simply no easy answer.

The veternarians don't always have answers. It's not always a simple matter of throwing enough money at it (even if the person has the money!).

Complicating our decision was the knowledge that it wasn't just a simple matter of removing the tumor. Cutting out a cancer doesn't just 'get rid of it.' It makes its spread. That is well documented. The act of removing the tumor causes any escaping cells to metastacize. And it's impossible to avoid a few cells escaping the surgeon's knife. So cutting out a cancer is a surefire way to ensure it will spread. Then what? The root of the issue has not been addressed.

Conventional treatment of cancer is barbaric. It's bad enough that children are subjected to it. Adults can make their own decisions but children? and now cats and dogs? It's horrible. I would never subject an animal to chemotherapy. They wouldn't even understand what was being done to them. They would be subjected to more pain, and it wouldn't even work anyway. At best it might extend their lives by a few months or so...painfully.

We are caretakers of these animals. They are being subjected to experiences they wouldn't have to deal with in the wild. Cats and dogs are now getting cancer, diabetes, liver disorders, dental decay, heart disease, and all the other myriad 'human' ailments, due largely in part to the toxic, dead, degenerated, filthy diet they are fed, just as humans are getting those diseases due to the SAD diet. Animals fed the same way as humans are getting sick, just like humans. Those diseases aren't seen nearly as much in the wild. It is a 'domestication' problem so we have no choice but to deal with it.

Zachary, I admire that you make your own pet food. That is a huge step in decreasing the risk of degenerative diseases! I don't do that but I do buy premium pet food and add superfood supplements.

Each of us must deal with these situations as best we can, as mercifully as we can. Prevention is a big part of the equation. We can't totally stop our pets from aging, but we can go that extra mile and feed them well. As you have shown, it needn't be expensive.

(02-04-2013, 01:48 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, what creates some resistance within me is when I see people putting their pets to sleep because they don't want to take care of them as they grow old, or worse, because they don't care for the pet anymore regardless of the age. It's so common... and it breaks my heart.

Yes, I agree with you on that! People often have their pets 'put down' when they become inconvenient. That just blows my mind!

Right now I have another elderly special-needs case. One of my cats is 18. He isn't sick but is just old. He's still very spry but is missing some teeth. I have to feed him canned kitten food to keep him from getting skinny. He can't eat much at a time so I feel him about 5 times per day. He has to be kept very warm. I'm bonding with him even more than before, having to take care of him. It's a special time of closeness. He's a real sweetie.

I have 6 cats all around the same age. Strays all. Wish me luck in about 10 years when they're all aging!

(02-04-2013, 01:48 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for sharing your story. It's inspiring.

Heart

Thank you for starting this discussion. It's important!

Brittany

(02-04-2013, 12:51 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]Have you heard of the euthanasia rollercoaster?


I hope my death can be that fun and unconventional. Whenever that time comes, I'd like to make something artistic out of it, if circumstances permit.

Cyan

I hope my second death in this body will be in the course of my service to helping others, in a way that is both funny, memorable, and poignant.

Zachary

(02-04-2013, 08:14 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2013, 01:48 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Very sad story Bring4th_Monica, but it shows you truly did your utmost best for your companions, and that's wonderful. If you were sure your pet was ready to go, which under the situation you explain seems to be the case, then it's the right thing to do.

I have more stories. I'll tell just 1 more. We had a cat with a tumor in her ear. The vet said she had about a 50-50 chance of surviving surgery, because of her advanced age and heart problem. He said if we did nothing she would probably have a good quality of life for a couple more years.

So we were faced with the difficult decision: Have the surgery and risk her dying, or take our chances. We decided to take our chances, since she was so old anyway. We wanted to have as much time with her as possible.

I ended up regretting that decision. The vet was wrong; her quality of life degenerated. Her condition worsened. We tried all sorts of things that didn't work, and she ended up in pain. (This was before I had the water and other resources that I know about now.) But, if we had opted for the surgery and she had died, then I'd have regrets too. So there was simply no easy answer.

The veternarians don't always have answers. It's not always a simple matter of throwing enough money at it (even if the person has the money!).

Complicating our decision was the knowledge that it wasn't just a simple matter of removing the tumor. Cutting out a cancer doesn't just 'get rid of it.' It makes its spread. That is well documented. The act of removing the tumor causes any escaping cells to metastacize. And it's impossible to avoid a few cells escaping the surgeon's knife. So cutting out a cancer is a surefire way to ensure it will spread. Then what? The root of the issue has not been addressed.

Conventional treatment of cancer is barbaric. It's bad enough that children are subjected to it. Adults can make their own decisions but children? and now cats and dogs? It's horrible. I would never subject an animal to chemotherapy. They wouldn't even understand what was being done to them. They would be subjected to more pain, and it wouldn't even work anyway. At best it might extend their lives by a few months or so...painfully.

We are caretakers of these animals. They are being subjected to experiences they wouldn't have to deal with in the wild. Cats and dogs are now getting cancer, diabetes, liver disorders, dental decay, heart disease, and all the other myriad 'human' ailments, due largely in part to the toxic, dead, degenerated, filthy diet they are fed, just as humans are getting those diseases due to the SAD diet. Animals fed the same way as humans are getting sick, just like humans. Those diseases aren't seen nearly as much in the wild. It is a 'domestication' problem so we have no choice but to deal with it.

Zachary, I admire that you make your own pet food. That is a huge step in decreasing the risk of degenerative diseases! I don't do that but I do buy premium pet food and add superfood supplements.

Each of us must deal with these situations as best we can, as mercifully as we can. Prevention is a big part of the equation. We can't totally stop our pets from aging, but we can go that extra mile and feed them well. As you have shown, it needn't be expensive.


(02-04-2013, 01:48 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, what creates some resistance within me is when I see people putting their pets to sleep because they don't want to take care of them as they grow old, or worse, because they don't care for the pet anymore regardless of the age. It's so common... and it breaks my heart.

Yes, I agree with you on that! People often have their pets 'put down' when they become inconvenient. That just blows my mind!

Right now I have another elderly special-needs case. One of my cats is 18. He isn't sick but is just old. He's still very spry but is missing some teeth. I have to feed him canned kitten food to keep him from getting skinny. He can't eat much at a time so I feel him about 5 times per day. He has to be kept very warm. I'm bonding with him even more than before, having to take care of him. It's a special time of closeness. He's a real sweetie.

I have 6 cats all around the same age. Strays all. Wish me luck in about 10 years when they're all aging!

(02-04-2013, 01:48 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for sharing your story. It's inspiring.

Heart

Thank you for starting this discussion. It's important!

Well I don't necessarily "make" it...I just buy flesh, guts and bone and cut them up Smile. Thank you though, it took me a while to become dedicated to feeding 100% RAW but it has been worth it. I spend about half the price feeding raw as I would on the dry kibble I was buying before (Orijen). Glad to hear you are conscientious of what you feed your pets and doing what you find best to feed them for good health.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. It has been very helpful for me to get some 'outside perspective' and hear some personal experiences people have had. Sam is the first dog that is completely "mine" if you will...the dogs before have been family dogs. I do recall when the most recent family dog passed away, her name was Poco..she was so sweet. She would act so submissive and whimper (not in fear) as whenever we would come home. She was a rescue and we think she was abused in the past judging by her character. For most of my life it was just my mom, her and me. We didn't even feed her the 'higher quality' kibble, I was too young to be concerned with what she ate, didn't really think about it. My mom didn't believe it made that much of a difference at the time. Poco ended up with heart worms (not suggesting there was a connection between the kibble and the heartworms but there may have been-cant say for sure). My mom is a Christian Scientist so she doesn't really believe in modern medicine too much but when we noticed her heart was beating very, very, fast we took her in. The doctor gave a shot to "slow her heart rate down" and it stopped. We weren't there with her because it was not expected...but Im sure she is doing fine Smile
there are some wonderfully compassionate people here Heart i do believe that all on this board are sensitive to the fact our animal friends are our brothers. i have never had to put an animal to sleep but i do believe their comes a point when it becomes clear that the animal is suffering tremendously. our daughter has a doggie now who is 11 or twelve years old and eventually she is going to get to the point where she may have to make that decision. and believe me there will be many tears if she is put to sleep. at some point i do believe it is more compassionate to put these beloveds to sleep. i also believe in euthanasia for humans. at some point the suffering is so great what is the point of living. to continue to suffer. why ? at some point the soul wants to be freed. the night my mother passed away she ate 1/2 of a danish coffee cake ha ha. she was diabetic and she would never have eaten that much at once. but she knew she was going and she said i am going out partying ha ha. good for her . we all have a time , this life is not permanent. if we can make the transition more comfortable for those we love , both animal and human, i am all for it.

norral Heart

(p.s) my mom passed at the age of 91 . she lived a good life and was always surrounded by those who loved her Heart
Note: I made a reference to Schipperkes attacking intruders and not letting go, like pit bulls. But I should clarify that they are pint-sized so they're not dangerous like pit bulls. Just for the record!
(02-02-2013, 09:03 PM)Charles Wrote: [ -> ]Cyan Wrote:
Quote:I wouldn't put an animal to sleep unless its death was imminent (few hours) and it was in pain (broken bones etc right now with no hope of help such as an uninhabited island)

Many years ago my cat Ralph had cancer in his mouth. He couldn't eat. He could have lived, hungry and in pain, for a long time. Instead I held him and loved him as I said a merciful good by.

And the there was Molly my dog. Arthritis pain, I bought stairs to help her on and off the bed. She complained about having to walk outside to do her business. Old age allergies to everything, scratching herself constantly, and chewing on the bottom of her feet. Anemia, her gums were white (as was much of her fur), and as she lost blood, she also lost energy. Her anal glands had to be constantly expressed, because they kept hardening and no longer worked. I think I kept her alive for too long, and it would have been kinder to say good by sooner. When I did say good by, she knew full well what was happening, and she didn't take her eyes off me as she grinned at me with love.

vervex wrote:
Quote:My point is the following; if we valued animals' lives like our own, we would not be having this discussion right now. It is only because we, as a society, still see animals as below humans, creatures of lower worth, that we wonder if we should put them to sleep when they reach a certain age.


I wish we respected each other human beings, as much as we do animals. Death does not exist. Another dimension of joy and love and wisdom awaits us when we die. We meet our soul group, our Teachers, our Guide(s), our Elders, our soul mate(s), our friends. I feel qualified to say this because of my near death experience when I was 25 (car "accident"), and because of the Life Between Lives (LBL) work I do as a hypnotherapist.

People in their LBL sessions have often run and danced with their deceased pets.

I'm not suicidal, but I do look forward to my death. This knowledge serves me as a constant Light of joy in my life. Helping each other die humanely would be a kindness.

Great post, Charles.

(02-08-2013, 05:28 PM)norral Wrote: [ -> ]there are some wonderfully compassionate people here Heart i do believe that all on this board are sensitive to the fact our animal friends are our brothers. i have never had to put an animal to sleep but i do believe their comes a point when it becomes clear that the animal is suffering tremendously. our daughter has a doggie now who is 11 or twelve years old and eventually she is going to get to the point where she may have to make that decision. and believe me there will be many tears if she is put to sleep. at some point i do believe it is more compassionate to put these beloveds to sleep. i also believe in euthanasia for humans. at some point the suffering is so great what is the point of living. to continue to suffer. why ? at some point the soul wants to be freed. the night my mother passed away she ate 1/2 of a danish coffee cake ha ha. she was diabetic and she would never have eaten that much at once. but she knew she was going and she said i am going out partying ha ha. good for her . we all have a time , this life is not permanent. if we can make the transition more comfortable for those we love , both animal and human, i am all for it.

norral Heart

(p.s) my mom passed at the age of 91 . she lived a good life and was always surrounded by those who loved her Heart

+1. Agree completely with you.
Somewhat related thread:

Bring4th Forums One > Olio > Would you let this dog live?

I sure would like to get some feedback on this from someone who has actually listened to the entire interview.
I've got somewhat of a weak persona in regards to animals that are hurting. I don't like looking at pictures of them suffering, and that's why I couldn't work in a rescue shelter. The hurt of animals breaks my heart. Well mostly with dogs. Cats too, though not as much as I'm a dog person. So I tend to avoid stories and pictures and videos of animals that are hurting. Is it cowardice, probably. I don't know if I'll ever have the strength to really watch a video like that. But at the same time I have to look at myself, because I did hurt one animal when I was out of my mind. Because I wasn't in my right mind, I don't blame myself. But I am taking responsibility for it. It's such an ironic world we live in. I'm not going to be able to take it the day I have to put my baby to sleep (my wolfie).
(02-18-2013, 10:04 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]I've got somewhat of a weak persona in regards to animals that are hurting. I don't like looking at pictures of them suffering, and that's why I couldn't work in a rescue shelter. The hurt of animals breaks my heart. Well mostly with dogs. Cats too, though not as much as I'm a dog person. So I tend to avoid stories and pictures and videos of animals that are hurting. Is it cowardice, probably. I don't know if I'll ever have the strength to really watch a video like that. But at the same time I have to look at myself, because I did hurt one animal when I was out of my mind. Because I wasn't in my right mind, I don't blame myself. But I am taking responsibility for it. It's such an ironic world we live in. I'm not going to be able to take it the day I have to put my baby to sleep (my wolfie).

I understand! I wouldn't be able to handle working at an animal shelter because I'd want to take every unadopted dog and cat home! I could do it if it was a no-kill shelter but wouldn't be able to witness gassing unwanted dogs and cats. That would be like working in a slaughterhouse.

The story I posted is an audio interview, not a video. The dog isn't suffering, but actually is being quite pampered. It's an unusual story, and I have an opinion about it, but was wondering what other people thought of it. It's ok if you'd rather not listen to it, though!