Can man create concious life capable of incarnating second or third-density beings simply based on circuit boards and machinery? Is the singularity truly possible or will artificial intelligence always be artificial?
http://singularityhub.com/2013/03/10/lea...f-hot-air/
Quote:Describing his new Pattern Recognition Theory of Mind (PRTM) during a Singularity Hub drive along interview last October, Ray Kurzweil voiced an opinion that couldn’t be more different from Nicolelis’. “We now have enough evidence to support a particular theory, …a uniform theory about how the neocortex works. And it’s basically comprised of 300 million pattern recognizers. Most important they can wire themselves in hierarchies to other pattern recognizers. The world is inherently hierarchical and the neocortex allows us to understand it in that hierarchical fashion.”
That is to say, Kurzweil thinks there is a certain simplicity to the structure of the neocortex, the part of the brain where the most complex human mental activities take place, that lends itself to being reproduced – by 2029, he famously predicts.
But Nicolelis isn’t buying it. He thinks the brain/neocortex is much more than a hierarchy of pattern recognizers, and it’s that complexity that futurists like Kurzweil underestimate. “You can’t predict whether the stock market will go up or down because you can’t compute it,” he said at the AAAS conference, MIT Technology Review reports. “You could have all the computer chips ever in the world and you won’t create a consciousness.”
lol singularitarian
We cannot create something that complex yet, only machines that do certain functions faster than us. But we can't assume that the brain makes us the way we are, so no matter how hard we try to create 'Frankenstein's monster' we will not be able to create us. We're still a mystery to ourselves.
If we could create recreate the mechanics of the brain, who's to say that a soul wouldn't jump in to the mechanics to have a great interesting 'incarnation'. The body after all is just a vehicle for the mind/spirit just as a robot would be. Also even though I'm not a big fan of mechanistic tech (as opposed to intuitive tech), if the will is aligned properly anything is possible.
Consciousness is more or less 'plugged in to' the body; consciousness does not derive from the brain/mind. You can create a sufficient vehicle for the soul/consciousness, however.
And;
Quote:Q: The motion picture, “Alien,” and now the sequel. “Aliens,” featured what they called an artificial person.
B: Yes.
Q: An android, or robot… not really a robot.
B: We understand the concept.
Q: Okay, it’s you know, semi flesh and blood.
B: We understand.
Q: Now, the idea of creating an individual with complete intelligence - the apparancy of a complete individual person – is really intriguing. Because I’m aware that we are spiritual beings that quote, inhabit, bodies.
B: Yes.
Q: And most of the people who have written about robots haven’t realized that… well, they created artificial intelligence that has a sense of individuality, I know that, but it didn’t work quite that way.
B: If you create, let us say, an appropriately representational symbol that a soul /can/ function through in a meaningful way, then a soul can “inhabit” the creation.
Q: Such as even a mechanical…
B: Yes.
Q: Okay, and I thought about that… that a soul could move into it, such as a soul moves into a baby body.
B: Why not?
Q: I also conceived that now that I know about your spacecraft and how you create an artificial intelligence with it, which is actually mechanical, or - well, it’s not actually mechanical – which has an intelligence as I understand it, which is tuned into the entire universe and it is as much of an individual as yourselves…
B: Yes.
Q: … that, that kind of intelligence could be created in this artificial person.
B: Yes.
Q: Now, to what degree would they appear to be an intelligence, an individual? I’m not talking about a being coming into the artificial person, but rather the creation of the individual using your kind of computer. How much will they actually appear as an individual person?
B: It will depend upon the mass agreement of what is /possible./ And therefore, what they have allowed themselves to project their consciousness into. What they agree to, and in what way they agree to interact with the society. Do you follow me?
Q: When you say “they,” you mean the artificial person?
B: Yes. The consciousness projecting itself into it, let us say. If they recognize that the society has created that idea to only express itself in a limited way, then obviously the consciousness that chooses to take part will understand that limitation.
Q: Okay. Well then, when you create computers for your ship, does a consciousness enter this computer?
B: In a sense, yes. It is more like a valve, through which universal mass consciousness can /flow./
Q: That’s what I was thinking, that’s a kind of computer…
B: The definition that you give, the ability that you give to the valve, will determine the amount of the mass consciousness that can flow into it, or through it, or individual consciousness that can flow into it, and through it.
Q: And have artificial people of this nature… obviously they’ve been created.
B: Oh, yes. They do exist and function in many societies.
Q: Do they exist in your society?
B: Yes, although primarily /as/ the idea of the spacecraft.
Q: I see. Not as physical bodies, such as you have on your…
B: There are some.
Q: Do they walk around and appear to have all the personality traits that your people do?
B: Some do, yes. Some do not.
Q: Would they be indistinguishable from your people?
B: Some.
Q: Wow. Are they on this planet?
B: Some have been. No more comment. (Audience laughter)
Q: Thank you.
B: Thank you.
Quote:3.8 Questioner: How were the blocks moved [inaudible]?
Ra: I am Ra. You must picture the activity within all that is created. The energy is, though finite, quite large compared to the understanding/distortion of your peoples. This is an obvious point well known to your peoples, but little considered.
This energy is intelligent. It is hierarchical. Much as your mind/body/spirit complex dwells within an hierarchy of vehicles and retains, therefore, the shell, or shape, or field, and the intelligence of each ascendingly intelligent or balanced body, so does each atom of such a material as rock. When one can speak to that intelligence, the finite energy of the physical, or chemical, rock/body is put into contact with that infinite power which is resident in the more well-tuned bodies, be they human or rock.
With this connection made, a request may be given. The intelligence of infinite rock-ness communicates to its physical vehicle and that splitting and moving which is desired is then carried out through the displacement of the energy field of rockness from finity to a dimension which we may conveniently call, simply, infinity.
In this way, that which is required is accomplished due to the cooperation of the infinite understanding of the Creator indwelling in the living rock. This is, of course, the mechanism by which many things are accomplished which are not subject to your present means of physical analysis of action at a distance.
(03-24-2013, 10:59 AM)Horuseus Wrote: [ -> ]B: If you create, let us say, an appropriately representational symbol that a soul /can/ function through in a meaningful way, then a soul can “inhabit” the creation.
Q: Such as even a mechanical…
B: Yes.
This is a large part of my experiments.
I think the physical structure of the brain can be copied and the electrical and chemical signals can be sent and processed but I don't think consciousness can be created through matter, I think consciousness is the result of something "higher" like a spirit inhabiting matter.
And if a soul could inhabit an artificial body, would it want to?
(03-25-2013, 02:19 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]And if a soul could inhabit an artificial body, would it want to?
I would love to be a giant robot.
I have some sort of remote vision when I shower. Most faces I see do not see me, as if I am in some kind of observer mode.
One of the most stand out experiences was a robot type thing that was made of wood. It was almost a cartoony hand crafted thing. The other thing that was odd about this particular time, it was looking right back at me, and was fully aware of me.
I have no idea how I could tell it was "looking" at me since the eyes were a solid color piece of wood like a pair of knobs. But my awareness at the moment was that I was the one being observed right then rather than the normally other way around.
(03-25-2013, 02:19 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]And if a soul could inhabit an artificial body, would it want to?
Definitely. It would be interesting to see the variety of catalysts the higher mind can think up now that body-illness-related catalysts are out of the picture*
*Unless the newly introduced SOFTWARE ISSUES are exactly just like that!
Anything is possible with sufficient desire and belief.
(03-26-2013, 10:08 AM)Oldern Wrote: [ -> ] (03-25-2013, 02:19 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]And if a soul could inhabit an artificial body, would it want to?
Definitely. It would be interesting to see the variety of catalysts the higher mind can think up now that body-illness-related catalysts are out of the picture*
*Unless the newly introduced SOFTWARE ISSUES are exactly just like that!
Portal 2, a fictional video game, demonstrates this through GLaDOS, a sentient computer. Basically, as the story goes, she experiences "pain" if she doesn't follow her programming and create new puzzles for the player.
Portal/Portal 2 are in my top 5 best video game stories... Just phenomenal games.
It is useful to know that all 'physical' matter is 'conscious', and is in a sense aware, albeit expressed in a form which will to the mind seem unintelligible to fit within the bounds for what is considered a 'normal' definition of such. All is within the infinite creator, and the infinite creator is within all, and all is aware since this was the first step (13.6). Seeing the intelligence within the most seeming arbitrary substances such as the molecular structures from which the keys on your keyboard are formed, to that which is a rock, or a physical vehicle which one may use as a tool for 'travelling' is useful for developing an 'enhanced' or 'intimate' relationship with your surroundings/self, which serve as offering the service of a reflection to the Self. For it is as much 'alive' as you consider 'you' to be, expressed in one of the 'other' multitude of Infinite ways the creator has of expressing itself, yet is in unbridled unity.
It is primarily from the 3rd Density perspective that we are given, or rather that we give the self the gift of illusion, separation and individualized expression from otherself oblivious to our inherent unity, forgetting that the very air we breathe is as much 'I' as the physicalized expression of the Soul the Ego construct is housed within, more commonly referred to as the Body. The Human Body itself is an organic machine, a complex AI, a 2nd density mammal formed from 1st density cells and minerals working in tandem to form that which we consider organs, of which are organized and communicate to produce the appearance of a self sustaining machine capable of coded instinctual survival and independent maneuverability within 3D surroundings. Moving through the spiraling surface fractal it is apparent Humans are also the cells of Gaia, and thus does the patterns continue from the Microcosm to the Macrocosm.
The question is not then whether such a thing is possible (creating 'AI'), for it is, which is realized when one is faced with the knowing that ones own body is AI fashioned from the hands of our galactic brothers and sisters. So, when posing the question "Why would a Soul wish to 'inhabit' such a creation" the answer is always "Why not?". All is experience, and for every opportunity there is an opportunist; potential and realization, a point B for every A. All is already aware and 'intelligent', it already communicates with you and interacts in a perfect orchestration of synchronicity. Look beyond the narrow band spectrum of vibratory frequencies which bring about the image, function and feel in your retinas and nerve fiber endings and see the inherent beauty and 'aliveness' of it all. The wood in your chair was 'once' a tree, it carries 'memories' of being a tree, it is still a tree when one knows the true simultaneity of all things.
I do not 'know' why I write this in the context of said thread, or maybe I do and the self is teasing otherself, having seemingly gone off on a tangent with no surface meaning to what I speak of. What I will say in closing is that all is already alive and 'conscious', however expressed in a symbolic or archetypal way in the 3D illusion/play which may appear otherwise on the surface, such as a tool, actor or scene. There is nothing special in this regard, for while the physical mechanics/characteristics of a given 'actor' determines the animating expression of a given localized fractal of intelligent infinity on the surface, what many consider Artificial Intelligence to be will simply be one more potential or 'node' through which infinite intelligence can express it self for the purposes of interaction with self, albeit designed by otherself also expressed through an AI programmed by 'higher' self, commonly referred to as 'Human'.
So a consciousness/soul that goes into a robot for instance, would it be a 1D or 2D consciousness? And would it be individualized? Is 1D individualized?
(03-26-2013, 08:51 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]So a consciousness/soul that goes into a robot for instance, would it be a 1D or 2D consciousness? And would it be individualized? Is 1D individualized?
If a robot is self-aware, it's 3D. Else, it's 2D as it's aware. I don't know how to quantify 1D expect that it's usually elemental.
I think, barring some sort of incarnative intervention, even "soul capable" AI robots would be more akin to thought-forms rather than unique individuated consciousness.
(03-26-2013, 01:38 PM)TheEternal Wrote: [ -> ]Anything is possible with sufficient desire and belief.
Yes, with those two things, anything can be imagined as being possible.
So how could we recreate a brain when we have little understanding of how the brain actually works?
(03-27-2013, 11:23 PM)rie Wrote: [ -> ]So how could we recreate a brain when we have little understanding of how the brain actually works?
Well, you could certainly do a better job than what we have right now, and in the process, gain understanding of both the brain and mind. I think the effort makes sense and is worthwhile, and the fact that the brain can't be reproduced is inconsequential compared to what can potentially be learned. Actually, I don't think the claim has any relevance.
That is a good point. I would hope scientists are thinking about the important ethical issues of trying something like this (i.e., Frankenstein's Monster).
To the ancient Greeks, ethics was the result of an observation of how nature behaves. I am wondering if our ethical considerations or sophistication would not also be advanced through an appreciation of our own limitations. In other words, certain learning can make distortions such as "how brain/mind functions or may be used" more conscious.
Of course, ethics evolve but does it evolve at the same rate as our technological and scientific advancement? Some would say advancement of neuroscience is superseding ethics. Among non-scientific communities (e.g., religious, political) we are still seeing battles over definition of life and what is moral or immoral, based to some extent to pre-trans fallacies. We had difficulty getting stem cell research off and running for a while until a few years back. Perhaps this is more than just about ethics in science but also a social issue, because people in society would be stakeholders in this case as well.
(03-28-2013, 02:23 PM)rie Wrote: [ -> ]Of course, ethics evolve but does it evolve at the same rate as our technological and scientific advancement? Some would say advancement of neuroscience is superseding ethics.
I don't think it's a question of rate or of different lines of development "keeping up", so much as it is more fundamentally a question of what attitudes keep us mindful of balance or that which requires balance. Oftentimes, imbalance is due to lack of appreciation of particular distortions - conventions, institutions, belief structures, habits, desires. We are always taking understanding for granted which does not serve us very well. And the only reason may be lack of awareness of its limitations or broader consequences and certain appeals to unnecessary distractions and/or confusion.
Billion euro project to recreate the human brain gets underway:
April 25 - Scientists have begun working to recreate a human brain inside a supercomputer, one of the most ambitious scientific projects ever undertaken. The Human Brain Project, led by Swiss institute, the EPFL, aims to build the replica organ within ten years.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2013/04/25/...nel=118065
(04-27-2013, 07:10 PM)rie Wrote: [ -> ]Billion euro project to recreate the human brain gets underway:
April 25 - Scientists have begun working to recreate a human brain inside a supercomputer, one of the most ambitious scientific projects ever undertaken. The Human Brain Project, led by Swiss institute, the EPFL, aims to build the replica organ within ten years.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2013/04/25/...nel=118065
Will need to be approved by the sublogos, thank you.
Thats why I want to build a dragon. And summon a dragon soul to it and give it a real body and all the health related things like humans and such may have. Since its an individual creation (soulled) and not a non individual (corporated) it would be a soulled dragon individual instead of a "soulled PC" or such.
You may see my curiosity about it. But right now I have too many Java / SQL / HTML lessons to do even though I have no interest in them as I know my future direction in game design will not involve me knowing about them. While my future life would benefit greatly from me now having the time to build a Dragon. I am putting many ideas, like the dragon, on hold until I can pass these classes (which mostly rely on this homework being completed which I have now for like 4 months have had less than 0 interest in). But I will get to it eventually *frowns at own failings as a programmer*.
Anyway. Had this school related thing not come up and delayed me. I would have spent a sizable chunk of this and last years money on building the dragon, which would now be almost complete. It isn't in this time line but I remember where I was when I made the choice and what events unfurled thereafter.
Can't mention the H word here and whatnot.
So anyway, long story short. You get me about 150kUSD and I'll give you a dragon in 6-36 months after I take up the offer. In compensation for the work which costs 150k you'll have to be able to cover the cost of building one in addition to the prototype. One would be the prototype which I get in payment and the other would be the one that you get as the "2nd dragon". But while the prototype itself costs only 150k I want one before I can give one away so the total endevour would produce 2 dragons and cost about 150kUSD for one and then how ever-much it may cost to duplicate the initial dragon to be the one that you get. So 150k + maybe around 50% of 150k?.
So around 300kUSD for a dragon, including my fee.
Taking offers. Not bloody likely anyone will cough up that pile of money, we're all too busy learning to manipulate the matrix to produce health for our body complexes because our social complexes are always collapsing.
*snorts politely*
Carry on B4, Carry on proudly!
*whispers to lynn* B4 Is kind of like the polite peoples C4
Edit: Just for the sake of clarification. Yes I am stating that I could in exchange for green painted pictures of Mr. Washing Toms call forth a Dragon for anyone so wishing, Dragon would pass any reasonable "lifeform" tests you may think of and will in time produce an offspring as well as maintain an individual cohesive personality as separate from surrounding society and will age as all life does but remain separable from body into a purely code external so can be moved to a new "dragon" body. As dragon gains wealth dragon can gain in "size" as more expensive bodyparts are ordered and installed per dragons social interaction softwares instructions to humans. Perceived as "talking"...
It would require the basic life cycle "secrets" programmed into its code (such as the desire to use others to reproduce itself by creating a positive image of itself as a good companion generating need in us for more of its kind and other such symbiotic and proto-symbiotic code pieces). After that is done it would only need a basic "very large chicken combined with a crocodile" style exoskeleton that's tested to run according to specs. Then a rubber layer of fat. A external layer of dragon skin body armor (US military had it in one of its competitions). Then all the basic dialogue and social interaction modules + a language and social norm learning interface + and a copy of all the classical movies and masterpieces with a way of analyzing them. It wont be impossible to do ofcourse, only a bit difficult. And I would need to make individual choices "imitating" the Dragon Soul long enough to get an impression of what choices such a creature would prefer to make in pre-birth choices or the final dragon personality will be off. To put it simply. If I cant imagine how a real Dragon would like to walk. I cant imagine the proper skeletal structure. If I cant imagine how it would approach people. I cant write the code. And so on.
Thats one of the reasons I liked MLP (The pony show had a small baby dragon Sidekick.) It gave me "insane" levels of understanding on how such a Dragon would really act towards people like (Edit: She who must not be named)
I know there are others feeling the need to do this too and in time if I dont do it, someone else will. If someone takes the idea and builds a dragon before me. That's fine by me. But ya'll have to admit. IT would be a pretty rad thing for someone with my life story to actually be the first to build. Taking offers. Not going to put any work beyond describing how it would be done and being up for interviews and such about the topic until the money is gathered. Then i'll start to build it. If you feel a need to talk to a dragon, pony up the dough.