Bring4th

I've been really anxious today for whatever reason so I decided to meditate to attempt balance this anxiety. I didn't really feel any context to what I was attempting to balance but I did it anyways.

I first surrendered to my anxiety. I told myself that the anxiety was fine and it was welcome. "Let all the turmoil that is within me be. Let it sort itself out." And it did to a reasonable degree. And I continued to meditate.

Moments later, I started fearing there was an entity in my room that was going to bother me. I told myself "I surrender to this fear. It is fine. I accept what it has to offer. I will not let myself be harmed but I shall not fear."And I then got really into the meditation, a slight trance as I repeated "I surrender to this fear." Then a vision came to me in my mind's eye:

I was at this party with colorful lights and disco music playing. As it was going, I saw a ghostly image of a vodka bottle. Then in place of the vodka bottle, there was the face of an old, Asian military general. Then a clear, lucid image of this guys' face shows up: Kim Jong-Un, the current dictator of North Korea.



Immediatley afterwards I woke up out of the meditation and I thought about a magazine article I read about this guy's father Kim-Jong-il and his personal chef. The chef mentioned how much Kim-Jong-il feared rejection by his servants, military personnel and whoever else that was under him. He also mentioned Il's longing for genuine, honest friendship. He lived in constant fear of rejection and betrayal by his own men and threatened them with death if they ever broke his trust.

The fact of the matter is I fear the same thing in all my relationships. Of course I don't have homicidal or violent thoughts towards people but I do certainly hurt at the thought of people leaving me. And I also do long for genuine companionship.

I am not sure as to the clear lesson here or the course of action but it's certainly something to contemplate further.

Do you see yourself as deserving of the loyalty of others?

(06-14-2013, 05:03 PM)TheEternal Wrote: [ -> ]Do you see yourself as deserving of the loyalty of others?

I believe people have the right to do as they please. I would never obligate a person towards me in a demand for loyalty. Such a demand would be against my principles.

As to answer your question, no. I don't feel deserving of anything. I don't think I am entitled to anything especially loyalty. I feel I am entitled to only what is within my own power and that means only me... because I refuse to control others. I will not enslave another, I will not entitle myself to another.

I will go as far as to say that nobody is obligated to feed me, give me water or shelter me even if they saw me dying on the side of the street.

I honestly believe I deserve nothing.

Heh, this sounds a bit extreme but I won't redact it. This is my honest answer. Feel free to tell me why this perspective is flawed.

So, does this mean you don't believe anyone deserves anything they do not claim through their own actions?

Interesting meditation Adonai! It seems that indeed an issue within you arose so that you can heal it

My advice would be to look into this fear. What is the source of that fear? Have you even been betrayed in the past? How did you/would you feel about yourself if someone betrayed you? If someone betrays or rejects you, does that decreases your worth/value as a being?

Most of the time, when people fear rejection, it is usually because they associate rejection with low self-worth "if someone doesn't want me, it must be cause I'm worthless". This fear dissolves when they come to the realization that our worth as human beings is not defined by how others interact with us. If you feel this resonates with you, I would also recommend asking yourself what defines the worth of a human being, if not love/hate from others. There may lie the answer to this challenge

Good luck!

(06-14-2013, 05:14 PM)TheEternal Wrote: [ -> ]So, does this mean you don't believe anyone deserves anything they do not claim through their own actions?

No. All entities are deserving of what is provided to them through whatever means. This is natural law. However, a longing, a delusion in believing one is obligated to something while not having it is just that: A delusion.

---

So I contradict myself. The real truth is I deserve whatever is given as all people do.

(06-14-2013, 05:11 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-14-2013, 05:03 PM)TheEternal Wrote: [ -> ]Do you see yourself as deserving of the loyalty of others?

I believe people have the right to do as they please. I would never obligate a person towards me in a demand for loyalty. Such a demand would be against my principles.

As to answer your question, no. I don't feel deserving of anything. I don't think I am entitled to anything especially loyalty. I feel I am entitled to only what is within my own power and that means only me... because I refuse to control others. I will not enslave another, I will not entitle myself to another.

I will go as far as to say that nobody is obligated to feed me, give me water or shelter me even if they saw me dying on the side of the street.

I honestly believe I deserve nothing.

Heh, this sounds a bit extreme but I won't redact it. This is my honest answer. Feel free to tell me why this perspective is flawed.

Oh that's a pregnant message.

Let's externalize it. Picture a 5 year old child in front of you. Do you think that child deserves to have loving friends? How about water and food? Do you think they deserve shelter, and perhaps a family to love and take care of them? Do you think the child deserves happiness?

Most people will answer yes; it's obvious, the child is innocent and beautiful, they deserve everything, especially happiness and love.

So now, why not an adult? At what point does the child becomes too old and stops deserving to be loved and happy? Is there a threshold that one crosses and they become unworthy?


Truth is, we are children, we are innocent, and we are all facets of God. We are worthy of everything in existence, because we are everything.

Happy thinking

Removed, since vervex asked exactly the same thing I did.

(06-14-2013, 05:26 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Oh that's a pregnant message.

Let's externalize it. Picture a 5 year old child in front of you. Do you think that child deserves to have loving friends? How about water and food? Do you think they deserve shelter, and perhaps a family to love and take care of them? Do you think the child deserves happiness?

I will not say that a child deserves the slavery of others so it can be fed. I do not believe it is right to put a gun to the head of a man, extort money from him and then feed the child with it. I do not condone such "rights."

I believe it deserves food and water out of the voluntary, charitable love of the people that surround it. I believe it deserves the happiness that can be willingly provided.

However, I do not believe it deserves happiness as far as that the whole world should bow to its whim under the threat of a higher power. Although such paradigms will exist.

I don't like the word "deserve" because it is often used negatively with an implication that violence will be used to achieve its end.

(06-14-2013, 05:26 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Most people will answer yes; it's obvious, the child is innocent and beautiful, they deserve everything, especially happiness and love.

So now, why not an adult? At what point does the child becomes too old and stops deserving to be loved and happy? Is there a threshold that one crosses and they become unworthy?

Worthiness seems to vary from perception to perception. It's not singular.

(06-14-2013, 05:26 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Truth is, we are children, we are innocent, and we are all facets of God. We are worthy of everything in existence, because we are everything.

Happy thinking

Yes, all desire will inevitably be fullfilled.

Okay, it appears that my question was slightly different so I will try to undistort the analogy to see if it makes more sense.

If you, Adonai, were walking down the street, and came across someone who was starving and dying, would you offer them aid?

(06-14-2013, 05:53 PM)Guenivere Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, it appears that my question was slightly different so I will try to undistort the analogy to see if it makes more sense.

If you, Adonai, were walking down the street, and came across someone who was starving and dying, would you offer them aid?

Yes because I would inherently value that person as my own. They have a right to my aid because I love them. Most people would do the same.

As for what I said: Others may not inherently value me as their own and that is their right. I still do not believe anybody is obligated to serve me under any circumstance.

(06-14-2013, 05:55 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-14-2013, 05:53 PM)Guenivere Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, it appears that my question was slightly different so I will try to undistort the analogy to see if it makes more sense.

If you, Adonai, were walking down the street, and came across someone who was starving and dying, would you offer them aid?

Yes because I would inherently value that person as my own. They have a right to my aid because I love them. Most people would do the same.

As for what I said: Others may not inherently value me as their own and that is their right. I still do not believe anybody is obligated to serve me under any circumstance.

So what if that person you were attempting to offer aid to rejected you, because they claimed unworthiness? How would you feel then?

(06-14-2013, 05:33 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]I will not say that a child deserves the slavery of others so it can be fed. I do not believe it is right to put a gun to the head of a man, extort money from him and then feed the child with it. I do not condone such "rights."

I believe it deserves food and water out of the voluntary, charitable love of the people that surround it. I believe it deserves the happiness that can be willingly provided.

However, I do not believe it deserves happiness as far as that the whole world should bow to its whim under the threat of a higher power. Although such paradigms will exist.

I don't like the word "deserve" because it is often used negatively with an implication that violence will be used to achieve its end.

Happiness is hardly being bowed to. What you are describing is power, authority, not being happy.

How about this for fairness, everyone deserves to be happy, so long their happiness does not hinder others' happiness around them?

Anyhow, happiness comes from within. A child does not need power or money or authority to be happy, no more than an adult does. They only need to choose happiness and welcome it. As they say, happiness is a state of mind. That is why some people in horrible or painful circumstances can still achieve happiness. It's a door you open within yourself. So technically, even the modified statement above, being happy, since it comes from within, can never hinder someone else's happiness. The illusion of happiness or some mental or physical forms of pleasure may however cause pain to others.

Quote:Worthiness seems to vary from perception to perception. It's not singular.

Worthiness may seem to vary according to societal standards, but in truth, it does not. We attribute certain values for certain objects, animals and even people completely arbitrarily. Let's use an example with money, as it is one of the most obvious examples; why is a hot dog worth 3$? Because we decided it was a fair price. However if you go from one restaurant or street cart to another, you will notice the price may vary from 2.50$ to 3.50$. So, what's the real worth of a hot dog? Even more crucial: if you take 2 identical hot dogs and price one at 2.50$ and the other at 3.50$, will they change in their form? Will one become nicer and the other uglier? Does this new value affect their nature?

No, it does not. It's the same hot dog, whether you decide it costs 1$ or 100$. It will never change. The worth we give to things and people is therefore completely irrelevant. The worth of a human being at their birth is the same as their worth on their death bed. It is the same essence which is present, and so even if you feel it has a different value it makes no difference. It is ever the same.

That is why real worth is not defined by people's opinion, and the value people try to attribute to you is completely irrelevant. Tomorrow the world may decide you are very worthy, or completely worthless, and it will have no impact. The difference is that humans, unlike hot dogs, actually tend to believe in the worth they are given and change their behaviour to reflect this new artificial value. One who feels worthless may become depressed and sad. One who feels very valuable may become confident and even prideful.

This is all inconsequential. What are you really worth?

(06-14-2013, 05:58 PM)Guenivere Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-14-2013, 05:55 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-14-2013, 05:53 PM)Guenivere Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, it appears that my question was slightly different so I will try to undistort the analogy to see if it makes more sense.

If you, Adonai, were walking down the street, and came across someone who was starving and dying, would you offer them aid?

Yes because I would inherently value that person as my own. They have a right to my aid because I love them. Most people would do the same.

As for what I said: Others may not inherently value me as their own and that is their right. I still do not believe anybody is obligated to serve me under any circumstance.

So what if that person you were attempting to offer aid to rejected you, because they claimed unworthiness? How would you feel then?

First off, do you think I would be so deluded as to do that? In fact, I've admitted my intitial contradiction in this regard.

However, as to answer your question, I would be astonished. I would assess if this was truly the man's will or if he was mentally diseased. I would leave him food or money regardless.

(06-14-2013, 06:05 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-14-2013, 05:58 PM)Guenivere Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-14-2013, 05:55 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-14-2013, 05:53 PM)Guenivere Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, it appears that my question was slightly different so I will try to undistort the analogy to see if it makes more sense.

If you, Adonai, were walking down the street, and came across someone who was starving and dying, would you offer them aid?

Yes because I would inherently value that person as my own. They have a right to my aid because I love them. Most people would do the same.

As for what I said: Others may not inherently value me as their own and that is their right. I still do not believe anybody is obligated to serve me under any circumstance.

So what if that person you were attempting to offer aid to rejected you, because they claimed unworthiness? How would you feel then?

First off, do you think I would be so deluded as to do that? In fact, I've admitted my intitial contradiction in this regard.

However, as to answer your question, I would be astonished. I would assess if this was truly the man's will or if he was mentally diseased. I would leave him food or money regardless.

Oof. You'll have to forgive me. I'm still getting used to these forums and the "page/line break" thing still throws me off, and I assume the last line of text in a post is the signature. I didn't even notice your confession to the contradiction. I just wanted to point out that by claiming unworthiness you are rejecting others' attempts at offering you green ray energy, which, if you ask me, is a STS trait, because obviously you are getting something out of the martyr mentality. I hope you don't take my interest too begrudgingly, I'm learning about myself in this regard too. Love is about giving and receiving at the same time. If I want to love you, who are you to tell me that I shouldn't because I feel obligation? I feel obligation to love as I feel obligation to breathe. The sun does not choose who it shines on, you choose whether or not you stand in the shade.

(06-14-2013, 05:59 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Happiness is hardly being bowed to. What you are describing is power, authority, not being happy.

How about this for fairness, everyone deserves to be happy, so long their happiness does not hinder others' happiness around them?

Anyhow, happiness comes from within. A child does not need power or money or authority to be happy, no more than an adult does. They only need to choose happiness and welcome it. As they say, happiness is a state of mind. That is why some people in horrible or painful circumstances can still achieve happiness. It's a door you open within yourself. So technically, even the modified statement above, being happy, since it comes from within, can never hinder someone else's happiness. The illusion of happiness or some mental or physical forms of pleasure may however cause pain to others.

I agree wholeheartedly.

(06-14-2013, 05:59 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Worthiness may seem to vary according to societal standards, but in truth, it does not. We attribute certain values for certain objects, animals and even people completely arbitrarily. Let's use an example with money, as it is one of the most obvious examples; why is a hot dog worth 3$? Because we decided it was a fair price. However if you go from one restaurant or street cart to another, you will notice the price may vary from 2.50$ to 3.50$. So, what's the real worth of a hot dog? Even more crucial: if you take 2 identical hot dogs and price one at 2.50$ and the other at 3.50$, will they change in their form? Will one become nicer and the other uglier? Does this new value affect their nature?

Yay, economics. I believe that the nature of the hotdog is inherently subjective. A hotdog will not feel and taste the same for all people and thus their value varies just as their nature. The pricing may affect their percieved nature due to price signals that act as feedback for supply and demand, which make them more or less scarcer and valuable.

The nature and the value are tied together. They affect one another. A higher-priced hotdog may in fact become nicer to the reseller of hotdogs. A lower-priced one may become more valuable for the consumer.

(06-14-2013, 05:59 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]No, it does not. It's the same hot dog, whether you decide it costs 1$ or 100$. It will never change. The worth we give to things and people is therefore completely irrelevant. The worth of a human being at their birth is the same as their worth on their death bed. It is the same essence which is present, and so even if you feel it has a different value it makes no difference. It is ever the same.

There's one flaw in your argument: We are not all undistorted percespetives of the all-loving God quite yet. Macrocosmically, everything has equal and infinite value but as things become distorted in the microcosmic, the perceptions will vary just as creation is distortion itself.

The fact of the matter is some will consider a baby cute and adoptable. Others may find it ugly and reject it.

Everything is the same essence but so are all perceptions, whether it be judgemental or unconditionally loving.

Universal value is an ideal but it is not the nature of a distorted reality.

(06-14-2013, 05:59 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]That is why real worth is not defined by people's opinion, and the value people try to attribute to you is completely irrelevant. Tomorrow the world may decide you are very worthy, or completely worthless, and it will have no impact. The difference is that humans, unlike hot dogs, actually tend to believe in the worth they are given and change their behaviour to reflect this new artificial value. One who feels worthless may become depressed and sad. One who feels very valuable may become confident and even prideful.

This is all inconsequential. What are you really worth?

Macrocosmically, I am worth as much as anything else. I am of infinite macrocosmic value. Microcosmically, I am worth whatever the market values my resume and by how much people value my company. As for the unconditional lover, I am of an infinite value.

I am an unconditional lover and I see all people as having infinite value although I do not feel and see as the creator quite yet.

I can only hope this does not hinder my relationship with anyone here. This is my honest perspective.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective...y_of_value

Notice how in my example I said it was the same identical hot dog whose price varies. Yes, people may "feel" the hot dog is worth a certain price, but if it's the same hot dog, objectively, the value should not vary. A hot dog is a hot dog is a hot dog. Even if it "feels" nicer, it doesn't mean it IS, especially if it's the same recipe, same bread, same sausage, same toppings. It only means that to you, it "seems". It is indeed a very subjective perception, and therefore it is not necessarily a higher truth.

As you have indeed stated yourself, perception of value is a distortion. Should you feel worthless because of someone else's distortion? If you know your universal value is the same, why then willingly welcoming such distortions in your life, unless you get something out this experience?

Speaking for myself, I get nothing out of listening to people who discourage me to, say, follow my dreams. And so I agree they have the right to their own perception, but I do not include their distortion into my reality. If someone believes I will fail, it does not mean I will. If someone else believes I am unworthy, it does not I am. See where I'm going?

Quote:Macrocosmically, I am worth as much as anything else. I am of infinite macrocosmic value. Microcosmically, I am worth whatever the market values my resume and by how much people value my company. As for the unconditional lover, I am of an infinite value.

As above, so below. Macro and Micro are intertwined and are really the same. This "micro" reality we live in is what we make of it, and therefore, if you believe the microcosmos has different rules, then your reality will reflect that, as a distortion. If you believe the market values and others' opinions dictate your worth, then it will. The truth remains the same however: your real worth is not impacted by the market or people. You may still choose to reflect others' distortions; that is your choice.

Quote:I am an unconditional lover and I see all people as infinite value...

This is very beautiful. Now you need only to turn it inwards to illuminate yourself

(06-14-2013, 06:42 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]As you have indeed stated yourself, perception of value is a distortion. Should you feel worthless because of someone else's distortion? If you know your universal value is the same, why then willingly welcoming such distortions in your life, unless you get something out this experience?

Should one laugh and embrace in the beauty of one's rejection by another? Is that all one can do?

(06-14-2013, 06:42 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking for myself, I get nothing out of listening to people who discourage me to, say, follow my dreams. And so I agree they have the right to their own perception, but I do not include their distortion into my reality. If someone believes I will fail, it does not mean I will. If someone else believes I am unworthy, it does not I am. See where I'm going?

Yes, we shouldn't make ourselves dependent on how another values us? A simple truth but a truth it seems I have yet to embrace.

(06-14-2013, 06:42 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]As above, so below. Macro and Micro are intertwined and are really the same. This "micro" reality we live in is what we make of it, and therefore, if you believe the microcosmos has different rules, then your reality will reflect that, as a distortion. If you believe the market values and others' opinions dictate your worth, then it will. The truth remains the same however: your real worth is not impacted by the market or people. You may still choose to reflect others' distortions; that is your choice.

I still want to play the game of this realm. I still want to fear death and loss enough to where I feel something at stake. What do you make of that?

I will say I appreciate your insight. You're excellent at discussing these things.

(06-14-2013, 06:42 PM)vervex Wrote: [ -> ]This is very beautiful. Now you need only to turn it inwards to illuminate yourself

It seems I have high expectations for myself while having none for anyone else.

It was a pleasure discussing this with you Adonai
It's okay to still want to play the game. Heck if we didn't want to play it, we wouldn't be here, right? The one thing to remember is that the game is flexible and we may decide what we want to do with it. If you feel you gain something from fearing death and loss, then that is okay (though I would still recommend to ponder on what it is you think you gain from fear... ahah). All is perfect!

I'm sure you'll meet your expectations, from what I read of you.
And to that I would also add (because I am compelled); when you're ready, drop the expectations and just enjoy the ride!
Cheers.

More meditation will doubtlessly reveal more answers, Adonai One.


Have fun with it!!