Are animals (and plants
) subject to the veil of forgetting?
Ra has stated that 3rd density is the "only plane of forgetting" (21.9) and that the veil is "a forgetting within the deeper mind" (105.19).
So what do you fine people think? Does your cat remember the life before physical life? Does your beloved pet fear death? Are 2nd density beings less caught up in space/time than we are?
I have my own thoughts but I would be most interested to hear yours.
No. Animals aren't subject to the veil because they just are. They aren't self-aware. They could not even conceive of the concept of memory much less put it to use although it barely exists as stimuli within their consciousness. Any intelligence we put on animals are our own biases.
They are the body, the involuntary organs of the planet. They are aspects of Gaia's mind.
2nd-density's counterpart is 6th-density. Both are in a form of unity with no concept of a veil. One is self-aware. The other isn't.
One could theorize that the Earth's mind provides some collective input into an animals instincts but beyond that, I don't think memory as we know it exists within animals.
(07-19-2013, 08:56 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]No. Animals aren't subject to the veil because they just are. They aren't self-aware. They could not even conceive of the concept of memory much less put it to use although it barely exists as stimuli within their consciousness. Any intelligence we put on animals are our own biases.
They are the body, the involuntary organs of the planet. They are aspects of Gaia's mind.
2nd-density's counterpart is 6th-density. Both are in a form of unity with no concept of a veil. One is self-aware. The other isn't.
One could theorize that the Earth's mind provides some collective input into an animals instincts but beyond that, I don't think memory as we know it exists within animals.
You might find this cracked article interesting:
Animals with better memories than humans.
That is imprinting. It's a bit different than episodic, time-based, linear memory. It serves an instinctual function as opposed to a developmental one.
(07-19-2013, 09:19 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]That is imprinting. It's a bit different than episodic, time-based, linear memory. It serves an instinctual function as opposed to a developmental one.
Episodic memory in animals.
But also keep in mind, that in 2nd density, the groundwork is being laid for work in 3rd density.
(07-19-2013, 09:27 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2013, 09:19 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]That is imprinting. It's a bit different than episodic, time-based, linear memory. It serves an instinctual function as opposed to a developmental one.
Episodic memory in animals.
But also keep in mind, that in 2nd density, the groundwork is being laid for work in 3rd density.
If a computer program can recognize patterns and recite them while applying them to programmed directives, does it have true memory?
Anyways, yes and no. It is only a foundation in the reception of true conciousness through light. There are no real lessons.
(07-19-2013, 09:38 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]If a computer program can recognize patterns and recite them while applying them to programmed directives, does it have true memory?
How is your memory any different? Aren't you following a programmed directive by the Logos? You have no ability to
not serve the creator remember?
I read the transcript of an interesting past life regression once where somebody recalled a life as an artificial organism (an android) on another planet. I don't think the categorizations of "true memory" and "fake memory" are quite so obvious. Evolution takes many intriguing forms -- not all of them biological.
(07-19-2013, 09:38 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]Anyways, yes and no. It is only a foundation in the reception of true conciousness through light. There are no real lessons.
What constitutes "real lessons" as opposed to "the fake ones"? Aren't all "lessons" just the creator exploring its own substance?
(07-19-2013, 09:54 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2013, 09:38 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]If a computer program can recognize patterns and recite them while applying them to programmed directives, does it have true memory?
How is your memory any different? Aren't you following a programmed directive by the Logos? You have no ability to not serve the creator remember?
The difference is I am aware of myself and what I am doing. I am able to fully analyze directives and disobey them. I am able to fully understand what I am doing. An animal or computer program just does it.
(07-19-2013, 09:54 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]I read the transcript of an interesting past life regression once where somebody recalled a life as an artificial organism (an android) on another planet. I don't think the categorizations of "true memory" and "fake memory" are quite so obvious. Evolution takes many intriguing forms -- not all of them biological.
Machinery can be alivened by an energetic body also known as a spirit. An android can be various things.
(07-19-2013, 09:54 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]What constitutes "real lessons" as opposed to "the fake ones"? Aren't all "lessons" just the creator exploring its own substance?
Lessons are what enlightens us to the true nature of reality. A life as an animal cannot provide that for there is no real journey. There is simply existence until basic self-awareness is received.
(07-19-2013, 10:37 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]The difference is I am aware of myself and what I am doing. I am able to fully analyze directives and disobey them. I am able to fully understand what I am doing. An animal or computer program just does it.
I disagree. I think there is plenty humans aren't aware of, and simply do unconsciously. Sure you can choose. If you are aware of the choice. But there is a vast panoply of behavior offered by human beings, such as projection, defensiveness, acting out, dissociation, repression, and displacement etc. that people do unconsciously, because they simply aren't aware of what is going on in their minds. You only have freedom to choose insofar as you are aware of the choice.
3rd density beings aren't very conscious in many respects.
I agree that we have more awareness (in some respects) than animals, but 3rd density beings aren't aware of many directives operating in their subconscious minds.
(07-19-2013, 10:37 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]Machinery can be alivened by an energetic body also known as a spirit. An android can be various things.
True. But everything is consciousness. The point was that anything, even a computer program, could have varying density levels of awareness. As Ra says, "Entities do not become enspirited. They become aware of the intelligent energy within each portion, cell, or atom, as you may call it, of its beingness."
(07-19-2013, 10:37 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]Lessons are what enlightens us to the true nature of reality. A life as an animal cannot provide that for there is no real journey. There is simply existence until basic self-awareness is received.
So how do you think animals graduate to 3rd density?
You wouldn't consider that an "awakening" to a "truer" picture of the nature of reality due to an accumulation of incarnate experience?
The point is we have the capacity to become fully aware. That doesn't happen until a single moment, a spark when a being understands that it exists and when the oversoul suddenly forms.
Conciousness is apparently a function of light energy flowing into parts of creation, as Ra describes in other parts of the work. This can be done through pets.
(07-19-2013, 11:24 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]The point is we have the capacity to become fully aware. That doesn't happen until a single moment, a spark when a being understands that it exists and when the oversoul suddenly forms.
The oversoul exists before 3rd density self awareness is in effect. At least, from a vantage point beyond space/time.
(07-19-2013, 11:24 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]Conciousness is apparently a function of light energy flowing into parts of creation, as Ra describes in other parts of the work. This can be done through pets.
From my perspective, consciousness is a pure form of metaphysical "light". It "illuminates" experience. It is intelligent energy.
The 2nd-density life of Earth has a vast oversoul but once part of it individuates, an individual oversoul is perceptibly created.
All things exist at the same time but there are still potentialities and probabilities.
To the latter, we agree.
I personally think that each one has its own subdivision of a social memory complex that it works in. I think that they are instinctually against death, but spirit-wise the spirit is held in potentiation as Ra mentions. (Can't remember where though)
Individual 2nd-density life is truly mortal. It can be reduced to dust at any time. But it truly doesn't die because it was only an aspect of its respective planet to begin with.
This is the big difference.
There are always a few 2d animals with 3d consciousnesses; some Ra passages refer directly to how they can en-spirited and become individuated consciousnesses. I think once they get to 3d, they have a veil, my understanding before this occurs is that they have a group soul. They probably have some sort of rudimentary memory as well, but without full self-awareness it's probably very limited.
I'd gather more than a few pets are in this 3d consciousness category.
(07-19-2013, 11:45 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]The 2nd-density life of Earth has a vast oversoul but once part of it individuates, an individual oversoul is perceptibly created.
All things exist at the same time but there are still potentialities and probabilities.
To the latter, we agree.
From my perspective, all probabilities are real. Every eventuality is explored.
The distinction between "real" and "unreal" is only made by the fragments of the one. In unity, there is no difference between potential and kinetic.
There is still free will from this vantage point, but also future developments with their own parameters.
As Ra said, the seeming contradictions of free will and determinism melt when true simultaneity is accepted.
And I am not denying simultainety.
Just from our current perception, there are distinct oversouls and 2nd-density has a collective, planetary oversoul with an infinite amount of potential individual oversouls. They will all be explored as in a fractal but we can't skip around the fact that animals are not like self-aware beings.
(07-20-2013, 12:04 AM)xise Wrote: [ -> ]There are always a few 2d animals with 3d consciousnesses; some Ra passages refer directly to how they can en-spirited and become individuated consciousnesses. I think once they get to 3d, they have a veil, my understanding before this occurs is that they have a group soul. They probably have some sort of rudimentary memory as well, but without full self-awareness it's probably very limited.
I'd gather more than a few pets are in this 3d consciousness category.
True. There are also the Maldek entities, who are 3d consciousness in 2d bodies. I wonder though how much the limitations of the 2d brain negate the expression of self awareness though.
(07-20-2013, 12:10 AM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]And I am not denying simultainety.
Just from our current perception, there are distinct oversouls and 2nd-density has a collective, planetary oversoul with an infinite amount of potential individual oversouls. They will all be explored as in a fractal but we can't skip around the fact that animals are not like self-aware beings.
Never meant to give you the impression I was skipping around. Sorry.
Obviously, 2nd density is 2nd density, and 3rd density is 3rd density. Not arguing otherwise. Just trying to relay the concept that future is simultaneous for all densities, not just 3rd density onwards. It disturbs the linear parts of our mind, but it makes more sense when you think about it.
Just to clarify.
I think the mental capacities of animals turns more on whether they are 2d or 3d enspirited. Of course, this is speculation, but you do see seemingly enspirited pets act with amazing amounts of intelligence and seeming self-awareness.
(07-19-2013, 08:34 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]Are animals (and plants ) subject to the veil of forgetting?
Ra has stated that 3rd density is the "only plane of forgetting" (21.9) and that the veil is "a forgetting within the deeper mind" (105.19).
So what do you fine people think? Does your cat remember the life before physical life? Does your beloved pet fear death? Are 2nd density beings less caught up in space/time than we are?
I have my own thoughts but I would be most interested to hear yours.
If you have no experience of self awareness then what are you remembering about yourself?
Consider each builds upon the last. This is generalized and simplified, though might provide some illumination.
First density is conscious. It is not conscious awareness or self awareness.
Second density is conscious and awareness (of the illusion). It is not conscious self awareness.
Third density is conscious, awareness, and self awareness.
Fourth density is conscious, awareness, self awareness, and the awareness of the Unity of all things.
(07-20-2013, 12:24 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]If you have no experience of self awareness then what are you remembering about yourself?
I suppose I was thinking that an 2nd density entity could have a self, but not be consciously aware of it. Or, in the case of the animal, perhaps, while still having a "group soul" so to speak, the substance that represents its consciousness is more individuated while physically incarnate (which seems to be the case from my perception of my animal companions) and they might remember portions, or fragments, of their time-space group experience (perhaps in the same way that some wanderers have recall of being both part and the whole of a social memory complex). Specifically, I'm curious if this property allows them to see time/space energies (I sometimes get the impression our cat can see other frequencies as a example).
(07-20-2013, 02:21 AM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2013, 12:24 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]If you have no experience of self awareness then what are you remembering about yourself?
I suppose I was thinking that an 2nd density entity could have a self, but not be consciously aware of it. Or, in the case of the animal, perhaps, while still having a "group soul" so to speak, the substance that represents its consciousness is more individuated while physically incarnate (which seems to be the case from my perception of my animal companions) and they might remember portions, or fragments, of their time-space group experience (perhaps in the same way that some wanderers have recall of being both part and the whole of a social memory complex). Specifically, I'm curious if this property allows them to see time/space energies (I sometimes get the impression our cat can see other frequencies as a example).
If there is a presence in a particular time/space then that presence (or awareness) may inform. The presence is allowed by genetic makeup of the body and how that enables the connection/access to mind. The potential complexity of mind is limited by its time/space vibration. I think any consciousness can "see" those time/space energies of which they are aware, but awareness is going to be generally self-limited to that which maximizes learning/growth opportunity.
(07-20-2013, 11:01 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]The potential complexity of mind is limited by its time/space vibration.
How do you know this (as in how did you come to this knowledge)?? And can you say why?
(07-19-2013, 08:34 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]Are animals (and plants ) subject to the veil of forgetting?
No. Even if they were, they wouldn't be self-aware of it. This is why the most fruitful space/time nexus to introduce the veil was 3rd density (when the evolving mind/body/spirit complex "gains" self-awareness).
(07-21-2013, 08:32 PM)sdrawkcab Wrote: [ -> ]What is self-awareness?
The very ability to look into a mirror and question "who am I?" This, together with the possibility for abstract thought and conscious choice-making functions.
(07-21-2013, 01:44 PM)Ens Entium Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2013, 11:01 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]The potential complexity of mind is limited by its time/space vibration.
How do you know this (as in how did you come to this knowledge)?? And can you say why?
came to this now quite obvious understanding through study of the reciprocal system and the Ra Material. The reason is that complexity requires a certain freedom of expression which, of course, is naturally limited by a vibrational range. Our 3D minds can only become aware of 3D vibrations and the complexity it provides.
(07-22-2013, 12:52 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ] (07-21-2013, 01:44 PM)Ens Entium Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2013, 11:01 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]The potential complexity of mind is limited by its time/space vibration.
How do you know this (as in how did you come to this knowledge)?? And can you say why?
came to this now quite obvious understanding through study of the reciprocal system and the Ra Material. The reason is that complexity requires a certain freedom of expression which, of course, is naturally limited by a vibrational range. Our 3D minds can only become aware of 3D vibrations and the complexity it provides.
Alright, although the questions was more along the lines of "why time/space (as opposed to space/time (or both)) ?"
By "its time/space vibration" I assume you mean "where it's situated in time/space" and by "vibration" I assume you mean "basic expression/provision".
If the mind is a "device" that detects, stores and creates arrangements of things available to it in a structure that is consistent or has some "theme" (a pattern). Then..what is special about the freedom of expression that time/space allows that completely accounts for complexity of mind? Wouldn't space/time also provide a framework which supports the mind? Time/space providing vibrations which allow for certain features of mind and space/time for others?
This thread has got me thinking. Did 3d entities prior to the veil struggle with balancing the more violent or qualities? With the Law of One being rather easy to see or remember during this time my guess from that would be that the struggle was much looser and the increase in separation after the veil caused us to fall prey to the urges increasing tension between the two poles.
(07-23-2013, 05:17 AM)Ens Entium Wrote: [ -> ] (07-22-2013, 12:52 PM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ] (07-21-2013, 01:44 PM)Ens Entium Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2013, 11:01 AM)zenmaster Wrote: [ -> ]The potential complexity of mind is limited by its time/space vibration.
How do you know this (as in how did you come to this knowledge)?? And can you say why?
came to this now quite obvious understanding through study of the reciprocal system and the Ra Material. The reason is that complexity requires a certain freedom of expression which, of course, is naturally limited by a vibrational range. Our 3D minds can only become aware of 3D vibrations and the complexity it provides.
Alright, although the questions was more along the lines of "why time/space (as opposed to space/time (or both)) ?"
By "its time/space vibration" I assume you mean "where it's situated in time/space" and by "vibration" I assume you mean "basic expression/provision".
Yes.
(07-23-2013, 05:17 AM)Ens Entium Wrote: [ -> ]If the mind is a "device" that detects, stores and creates arrangements of things available to it in a structure that is consistent or has some "theme" (a pattern). Then..what is special about the freedom of expression that time/space allows that completely accounts for complexity of mind?
Mind is fundamentally a principle. Awareness of vibrational range instantiates it into a limited form. Each higher vibration allows the form to express more and more of the creator, which is to say allows more and more of a holistic treatment. The vibrational patterns which enable thought are of time/space. The lower the vibration, the more thoughts are distorted and reduced.
(07-23-2013, 05:17 AM)Ens Entium Wrote: [ -> ]Wouldn't space/time also provide a framework which supports the mind? Time/space providing vibrations which allow for certain features of mind and space/time for others?
The space/time framework which supports the mind is the brain and the body. space/time provides the brain (genetic code) which dictates how mind may potentially be accessed. Our space/time presence localizes the non-local time/space mind to provide our experiential nexus.