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Full Version: Unconscious decisions in the brain
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Something I came across when looking for certain info about brain function.

Quote:Already several seconds before we consciously make a decision its outcome can be predicted from unconscious activity in the brain. This is shown in a study by scientists from the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, in collaboration with the Charite University Hospital and the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin. The researchers from the group of Professor John-Dylan Haynes used a brain scanner to investigate what happens in the human brain just before a decision is made. "Many processes in the brain occur automatically and without involvement of our consciousness. This prevents our mind from being overloaded by simple routine tasks. But when it comes to decisions we tend to assume they are made by our conscious mind. This is questioned by our current findings." (Nature Neuroscience, April 13th 2008)

In the study, participants could freely decide if they wanted to press a button with their left or right hand. They were free to make this decision whenever they wanted, but had to remember at which time they felt they had made up their mind. The aim of the experiment was to find out what happens in the brain in the period just before the person felt the decision was made. The researchers found that it was possible to predict from brain signals which option participants would take already seven seconds before they consciously made their decision. Normally researchers look at what happens when the decision is made, but not atwhat happens several seconds before. The fact that decisions can be predicted so long before they are made is a astonishing finding.

This unprecedented prediction of a free decision was made possible by sophisticated computer programs that were trained to recognize typical brain activity patterns preceding each of the two choices. Micropatterns of activity in the frontopolar cortex were predictive of the choices even before participants knew which option they were going to choose. The decision could not be predicted perfectly, but prediction was clearly above chance. This suggests that the decision is unconsciously prepared ahead of time but the final decision might still be reversible.

"Most researchers investigate what happens when people have to decide immediately, typically as a rapid response to an event in our environment. Here we were focusing on the more interesting decisions that are made in a more natural, self-paced manner", Haynes explains.

More than 20 years ago the American brain scientist Benjamin Libet found a brain signal, the so-called "readiness-potential" that occurred a fraction of a second before a conscious decision. Libet's experiments were highly controversial and sparked a huge debate. Many scientists argued that if our decisions are prepared unconsciously by the brain, then our feeling of "free will" must be an illusion. In this view, it is the brain that makes the decision, not a person's conscious mind. Libet's experiments were particularly controversial because he found only a brief time delay between brain activity and the conscious decision.

In contrast, Haynes and colleagues now show that brain activity predicts even up to 7 seconds ahead of time how a person is going to decide. But they also warn that the study does not finally rule out free will: "Our study shows that decisions are unconsciously prepared much longer ahead than previously thought. But we do not know yet where the final decision is made. We need to investigate whether a decision prepared by these brain areas can still be reversed."
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2...041408.php
This thing again?
Was it posted before?
Nope, just this topic. I've revolved around it soooo many times. This whole "The brain does things before you decide it does things because cause and effect is only perceived in one direction by the limited mind of the scientists so it seems no free will exists so they start supporting no free will based philsophy rather than admit to a non localized and non linear time based model of existence". Its the bane of quite a few discussions on free will.
I think what they are talking about is 'conscious' free will, which might not be pidgeonholed into the common belief in free will. I do not exactly believe in the idea of free will in the way it is promoted.
This study assumes that consciousness entirely originates from the mechanical use of our brain, which clearly isn't the case, since we are a fragment of consciousness of our higher mind which interacts symbiotically with our chemical vehicles 'animal' level consciousness.
I think they just want to know why the brain fires up about 7 seconds before awareness of a thought. I didn't notice any attempted proof of thought originating in the brain. More like they want to know where the 'will' comes from.

Besides, the brain argument is almost valid if you consider the only thing we think or imagine is a reorganization of memorized patterns.
Problem with research is that it's going to be reductionistic and reduce a lot of things to organic functions bc that's their focus (the brain). If you're a neuroscientist you would try to correlate everything with the brain. It's just one level of understanding so we can't always expect neuroscientists to be metaphysicians and Jungian psychologists, and people can integrate this info with other knowledge. Not the end all be all.

The brain is fascinating tho bc it's like a hard drive that retains a database of information. The information is encoded into brain hard drive, info may edited, it's 'commands' are executed. The brain can function as a way to efficiently solve problems based on information within database (that was retained thanks to past experience). The research could remind us that conscious awareness is very important. The research could help us understand developmental aspects of how we make decisions. It could help support notion that we really need to work with unconscious bc these 'patterns' that we use to make decisions can run on its own in the background. So as Jungians ask, does the right hand know what the left hand is doing?

Good thinking Parsons, the limits in research has to be highlighted so we dont worship brain as all mighty god. lol
They should really include experienced meditators in all neuroscience studies. I kind of feel that there is a place where big thoughts lie, and then when you clear those you have the murmur of your subconscious which kind of bubbles away all on it's own.
I think we should just hook up people to fMRI's while they talk through someone else telepathically.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3144613/ http://www.science20.com/beachcombing_ac...nter-95617 There have been several research around telepathy (or how they define and quantify as telepathy)
@Rie, I agree with the notion of your brain doing things on it's own in the background. It's been stated before in other threads, but the 'animal' portion of the brain is extremely computer-like. I have noticed on innumerable occasions that my chemicle physical vehicle has driven me home 23 miles from work while my head was entirely in the clouds.
Hey its not spooky telepathy if we are all just one brain thinking to ourselves. Then its just a thought thats inside itself. Just that its large enough to be inside itself inside itself... I suppose science will get tehre one day.
(08-14-2013, 02:47 PM)Not Sure Wrote: [ -> ]I think we should just hook up people to fMRI's while they talk through someone else telepathically.

In case you may have missed/dismissed it, I highly suggest looking into the work of Dean Radin. Although, not all members of this forum agree with his work.
(08-14-2013, 02:56 PM)Parsons Wrote: [ -> ]I have noticed on innumerable occasions that my chemicle physical vehicle has driven me home 23 miles from work while my head was entirely in the clouds.

Oh yeah, that is just scary. I have driven blacked out. The only moments of vague consciousness were the moments when I was driving the curbs and had to swerve around a parked car. I always wonder about this other dude that is not very good at physical stuff when i'm passed out. I call him the cave man.
(08-14-2013, 06:35 PM)BrownEye Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-14-2013, 02:56 PM)Parsons Wrote: [ -> ]I have noticed on innumerable occasions that my chemicle physical vehicle has driven me home 23 miles from work while my head was entirely in the clouds.

Oh yeah, that is just scary. I have driven blacked out. The only moments of vague consciousness were the moments when I was driving the curbs and had to swerve around a parked car. I always wonder about this other dude that is not very good at physical stuff when i'm passed out. I call him the cave man.

100% agree. Sometimes I'll be missing 30-45 minutes of time where I was in my head thinking about something and didn't even realized how close to my destination I was.
Athletes and musicians may have similar experiences when they are in a meditative state or 'in the zone' where they perform w/o much thought but allow their mind and bodies to flow. Repetition or practice could allow for such experiences + different states of mind.