Bring4th

I suppose that karma should not so much be labeled "cause and effect" as much as "choice and consequences" (or choice and responsibility). Allow me to explain:

A man throws a rock into the pond and it makes waves.

Choices:
* The logos chooses to creates laws (consequences) for the operation of its physical manifestation
* The man chooses to throw the rock
* The (spirit and the root of the mind of the) man chooses that the rock and pond follow the law of the logos (responsibility to the logos)
* The pond and rock choose to follow the laws of the logos (responsibility to the logos)

Consequence:
* The waves do not stop (consequences of following the logos)

Karma is the result of following through with the choices that have been made.

Therefore, here are following classifications (not hard classifications, because some can blur the line, and not complete either):
* Free will karma - the result of choosing free will for the effect of experience (example would be the choice not to know what the consequences of an action would be, therefore testing it out to learn)
* Birth karma - the preincarnative choices made to further experience a test (opportunity to apply) that was not previously completed
* Relationship karma - the preincarnative choices made in order to learn the consequences of previous actions
* Return karma - the choice to move towards growth by seeking

And supposedly, we are not entirely bound by the preincarnative choices either, but the choices have to change by convincing the spirit while we alive, and should come from the first distortion.

--
(edit) moved last line into consequences

There is also dharma, which is the good counterpart to karma. Whereas it rewards good behavior as I understand it.

Karma is Causal Determinism(The Great Chain of Cause of Effect, also called Samsara)/Destiny, where Free Choice is the first cause.

This first cause is called the seed, created based on the intention of the choice. The final effect is also called the fruit.

We are further told not to be attached, in hoping for good fruits from our actions.

Furthermore, it is a low, essentially mechanical, concept whose overemphasis can lead to fatalism.

It is broken by the higher principles of Bhakti/Love or Jnana/Wisdom.

The Bhakti Yogi Jesus has a number of remarkable parables illustrating this concept, such as the parable of the prodigal son.

As Ra pointed out, and so did Jesus, forgiving others causes the forgiveness of karma towards self. That then creates a reality above the realm of base karmic cycles.

Quote:The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[a]

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[b] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[c] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Notice the Father is a picture of karma. While being offered salvation from karmic debts, when he didn't offer it himself was brought back into the cycle of karma.

Forgiveness is key to absolving karma.

Additionally, at the heart of Buddhism is the idea of "Dependent Origination", the idea that since all effects rely on previous causes ad infinitum, that they are ultimately "empty" of inherent existence.

Most other religions say that, instead of ultimate emptiness, this implies a "First Cause" and "Prime Mover", God. This is called the "Cosmological Argument".

This idea was popular with the British Empiricists, such as Francis Bacon, who invented a system of analyzing causes and effects called the Scientific Method.

Quote:A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion. For while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them, confederate and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity.

-Sir Francis Bacon

Quote:The main Business of natural Philosophy is to argue from Phenomena without feigning Hypotheses, and to deduce Causes from Effects, till we come to the very first Cause, which certainly is not mechanical.

-Sir Isaac Newton, another British Empiricst

Furthermore, Ra says that "The dissolution into nothingness is the dissolution into unity, for there is no nothingness", so both of these approaches are valid. These are the wisdom-based, or Jnana, approach.

Also worth noting is that, in addition to this empirical/a posteriori/deductive method, there is a rationalist/a priori/inductive method called the ontological argument, which is more popular with mathematicians and rationalist philosophers such as Descartes/Kurt Godel. The philosopher versions are diverse and complicated, however the method of "Apophatic theology", describing god by deductive negation, is simply and widespread in both Dharmic and Abrahamic religions, though in Buddhism, it again leads to emptiness rather than god.

Apparently Francis Bacon ascended and went on to become the Count de St. Germain.

How do we know we've forgiven ourselves and others from everything? Will one little nonforgiveness that is unconscious keep us on the cycle of Karma, doomed to repeat another cycle of incarnation?

(09-21-2013, 02:01 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]How do we know we've forgiven ourselves and others from everything? Will one little nonforgiveness that is unconscious keep us on the cycle of Karma, doomed to repeat another cycle of incarnation?

If you feel pain during an interaction with someone/thing, it's usually a good indicator that there's more forgiveness to be done. I don't try to forgive every little thing in the past, I just address it if it comes up and let it go.

---

And details don't matter as much as the big picture, so I don't think it lies in an single unforgiving state. The attitude and disposition towards forgiveness it what matters, IMO.

That's good to remember. Don't worry about the details. Just forgive what comes up.

(09-21-2013, 02:01 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]How do we know we've forgiven ourselves and others from everything?

When there is no emotional charge. When the encountering of, or thought of, "it," has no meaning beyond an unconditional, objective, not-personal positive attitude toward "it."

(09-21-2013, 02:01 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]Will one little nonforgiveness that is unconscious keep us on the cycle of Karma, doomed to repeat another cycle of incarnation?

I have found that the word "forgiveness" has a lot of connotation that makes it seem unreachable or impossible or even unknowable. I like to focus on removing the emotional charge, which tells me I am invested in some way, rather than "forgiving." Forgiving has the same feeling as the word believing; how does one make one's self believe--it's a paradox.

So, focusing on addressing the emotional charge is more solution oriented, for instance, hypothetically: Someone did something to hurt my feelings. To try and forgive for the sake of forgiveness is like trying to believe something I don't understand. Analyzing "why" so I can figure out how to forgive doesn't seem to work very well. How can I know why someone does something when they are themselves full of distortion as everyone is; you will never get to a starting point of where the why came from.

But if I look to myself, and where my emotional charge may have sprung from, which will likely have nothing to do with the actual act that hurt my feelings--that being only a trigger--then I have a better chance of forgiving because I am getting to the source of my own issue. (Because it removes the source of hurt from the other, and places in my own self.) I can then have a reasonable expectation of forgiving the other person.

The hard part comes in of then forgiving myself. I find this to be an ongoing evolving process with levels of progress dependent upon awareness. Whether this would prevent getting off the karmic wheel may depend on how the individual judges themselves--which is not the same as forgiveness.

Well said, Diana. I'm too lazy to ever type up a huge response and what you said is very much resonate with me.

Karma, from my perspective, is distortion naturally unraveling. It's the force that inevitably returns us to conscious awareness of oneness.

When you, through your free will, engage in behaviors or actions that are *not* consonant with oneness, you create distortions in your consciousness. These distortions take you away from oneness. To move away from oneness is to move towards separation. These distortions naturally "attract" or "call" those experiences that will "undo" or "unravel" these distortions. Everything eventually seeks balance, even if severely distorted.

When the will is released, or surrendered to truth, or reality, those requisite and needed experiences that will undo the distorted bias in consciousness are manifested/attracted. This results in an inevitable raise in vibration as the distortions are undone.

(09-21-2013, 02:01 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]How do we know we've forgiven ourselves and others from everything? Will one little nonforgiveness that is unconscious keep us on the cycle of Karma, doomed to repeat another cycle of incarnation?

You have karma all the way until you reach 8th density. However, the karma of 3rd density is harsher than the karma of 4th density and so on. The "forgiveness" lessons become softer with each increasing density.

But try not to look at karma as this daunting task you have to do. It's just those awareness lessons you need to raise your vibrations to higher levels. It really is a good thing. It all about releasing distortion. Seek the heart of self. Find peace. Love yourself and others. Everything else is fine tuning.

If I'm with someone who wishes to shoplift, am I breaking unity by confronting them? If I allow their behavior to continue, am I then in Unity? Or do we have more duty to obey the law that outweighs karma?

(09-22-2013, 12:24 AM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]You have karma all the way until you reach 8th density. However, the karma of 3rd density is harsher than the karma of 4th density and so on. The "forgiveness" lessons become softer with each increasing density.

But try not to look at karma as this daunting task you have to do. It's just those awareness lessons you need to raise your vibrations to higher levels. It really is a good thing. It all about releasing distortion. Seek the heart of self. Find peace. Love yourself and others. Everything else is fine tuning.

It's good to know that karma becomes softer in higher densities.
I just had an experience where I was with someone who was attempting to shoplift some merchandise, and we were caught in the store. The manager gave us a hard time as we left, and I've been nervous ever since. I wanted to maintain unity, so I didn't confront her. Though I could have offered to pay for the items before it got out of hand like it did. I thought it was karma that got us caught. I didn't want to steal, but I would have been in trouble as her had we left the store with the merchandise. I honestly can't wait for a higher density. Choices will be easier to make without the veil. I tell you, I'll still be motivated to seek Creator without the veil, because of what I've learned. It must be harder to seek creator here in 3D than it will be in 4D and higher. It takes a lot of work to see such little reward.

(09-21-2013, 01:59 PM)Tanner Wrote: [ -> ]Apparently Francis Bacon ascended and went on to become the Count de St. Germain.

So thats where all my Bacon went.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33n-IS8a1S4 not be sacriligious or anything but Bacon the Saint always brings out the spaceballs in me.

(09-22-2013, 10:17 AM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]If I'm with someone who wishes to shoplift, am I breaking unity by confronting them? If I allow their behavior to continue, am I then in Unity? Or do we have more duty to obey the law that outweighs karma?

Part of smoothing out the distortions that negate our awareness of unity is becoming a more and more perfect representation of who we really are. If you are in the company of people who are expressing in ways that not consonant with who you really are, then I would find company that *is* a more accurate reflection of who you really are.

I, personally, would rather not be in the company of someone who shoplifts. And if they attempted such behavior while I was with them, I would explain to them that I can't be with them while they choose to do that.

(09-22-2013, 01:51 PM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2013, 10:17 AM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]If I'm with someone who wishes to shoplift, am I breaking unity by confronting them? If I allow their behavior to continue, am I then in Unity? Or do we have more duty to obey the law that outweighs karma?

Part of smoothing out the distortions that negate our awareness of unity is becoming a more and more perfect representation of who we really are. If you are in the company of people who are expressing in ways that not consonant with who you really are, then I would find company that *is* a more accurate reflection of who you really are.

I, personally, would rather not be in the company of someone who shoplifts. And if they attempted such behavior while I was with them, I would explain to them that I can't be with them while they choose to do that.

Its a tricky slope. My personal feel on this is if it improves their life significantly to shoplift, let them do it. If not then confront them about why they feel a need to destroy their life and use shoplifting as an example, instead of having an argument about shoplifting.

That way the subject is perfectly docile and disarmed while you explain your point about shoplifting.

Which reminds me of my stance that I have actually taken the time to write down, and that is to get a Steam account and by all the games I have ever pirated online. Then all the songs I have ever pirated online. Its quite high on my list of things to do with money.

(09-22-2013, 02:00 PM)Not Sure Wrote: [ -> ]Its a tricky slope. My personal feel on this is if it improves their life significantly to shoplift, let them do it. If not then confront them about why they feel a need to destroy their life and use shoplifting as an example, instead of having an argument about shoplifting.

That way the subject is perfectly docile and disarmed while you explain your point about shoplifting.

Which reminds me of my stance that I have actually taken the time to write down, and that is to get a Steam account and by all the games I have ever pirated online. Then all the songs I have ever pirated online. Its quite high on my list of things to do with money.

That's why I try not to tell people what to do, I just know that I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I don't want to be around when other people are doing it. There are circumstances where that behavior is probably appropriate for the circumstances involved. There is no universally good or bad behavior.

I simply do what is right for me. We radiate that which we know by example, not by being the morality police.

What bothers me is when my friends justify stealing by saying that whatever store they are stealing from won't take any loss from it. I have friends who dumpster dive a lot, and that seems to me to not be stealing because the items have already been put out as no longer being for sale. However, many of them will try to take food that they feel they can get away with because they feel they shouldn't have to pay for food. I usually counter that even in the forest there is an effort with which sustenance is bought and they are really doing themselves more dishonour by trying to skirt around that effort in the city than it would take to put in the effort to survive in the city.

This really is a downhill slide.

(09-22-2013, 11:36 AM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-22-2013, 12:24 AM)anagogy Wrote: [ -> ]You have karma all the way until you reach 8th density. However, the karma of 3rd density is harsher than the karma of 4th density and so on. The "forgiveness" lessons become softer with each increasing density.

But try not to look at karma as this daunting task you have to do. It's just those awareness lessons you need to raise your vibrations to higher levels. It really is a good thing. It all about releasing distortion. Seek the heart of self. Find peace. Love yourself and others. Everything else is fine tuning.

It's good to know that karma becomes softer in higher densities.
I just had an experience where I was with someone who was attempting to shoplift some merchandise, and we were caught in the store. The manager gave us a hard time as we left, and I've been nervous ever since. I wanted to maintain unity, so I didn't confront her. Though I could have offered to pay for the items before it got out of hand like it did. I thought it was karma that got us caught. I didn't want to steal, but I would have been in trouble as her had we left the store with the merchandise. I honestly can't wait for a higher density. Choices will be easier to make without the veil. I tell you, I'll still be motivated to seek Creator without the veil, because of what I've learned. It must be harder to seek creator here in 3D than it will be in 4D and higher. It takes a lot of work to see such little reward.

Be careful. I've had more than one case of shoplifting where both the actual shoplifter and the "lookout" (usually another friend who had no idea what was going on) are charged as co-defendants with a shoplift or commercial burglary case.

Basically, unless you and your friend separate as you enter the store and only meet back up at the exit, and all the while you stay out of visual area around your shoplifting friend, it's pretty easy for the prosecution to make a decent case that you were the lookout and was watching to see if any loss prevention or store employees started watching the shoplifter. You probably will win the case at trial (unless you have a bad record of dishonesty or can't get any respected witnesses to testify to your honest character or unless the prosecution offers your shoplifting friend a slightly better deal if he agrees to testify against you as a lookout), but who wants to go through all of that?

If you don't want the headache of an unjustified case, it's best that you don't let people who enter the store with you shoplift.

On the other hand, internally, I think we should accept shoplifters unconditionally, by acting as necessary but doing so without attachment or judgment to any particular outcome.

Stealing, or taking without permission, no matter how it is justified (in my opinion) derives from a "separation" mindset. For example: employee vs. employer. Many employees think it's okay to steal from their workplace--pens, paper, whatever, because the owners are their "enemies"; they are the rich and the employee is the poor etc. You can follow this thinking to its inevitable ends:

-poverty mentality
-power is outside of self
-victimology
-the world owes you something
and on and on.

In short, it's not taking responsibility. I want to add here though, that I am not judging. And some people are really in dyer straights. I was in a grocery store late at night once and a very aggressive-looking cop came in. He went right for a 30-ish aged man and started asking him what was in his pockets. I was in the next aisle. The man tried to say "nothing" but ended up having to admit he had food in them. At first he was saying he meant to pay for the stuff but that didn't really scan and the cop was being very mean. The man was saying his family needed the food and I was thinking I would just pay for it and ask the cop to let him go with the food. Then the cop sprayed pepper spray on the man and even in the next aisle I could not breathe and had to get out of the store. On the way out I told the cashier that I would pay for the guy's food but could make no headway with this idea, and had to give it up and go home.

(09-22-2013, 03:08 PM)xise Wrote: [ -> ]Be careful. I've had more than one case of shoplifting where both the actual shoplifter and the "lookout" (usually another friend who had no idea what was going on) are charged as co-defendants with a shoplift or commercial burglary case.

If you don't want the headache of an unjustified case, it's best that you don't let people who enter the store with you shoplift.

On the other hand, internally, I think we should accept shoplifters unconditionally, by acting as necessary but doing so without attachment or judgment to any particular outcome.

When we left the store I had paid for the merchandise. My mom left behind a few pieces where she had taken off the beeper tag. They had not seen her do that, but found them left behind. The manager kept asking her at the door where they were, but my mom fought back and threatened to punch him. Eventually he let us go, since we had nothing unpaid on us. I just hope they can't track me based on the credit card I used when I paid. They still made a sale. I knew what my mom was doing wasn't "right" but I didn't speak up because of trying to maintain the harmony. I'm still nervous from it.

Heads up, because it seems your mom may be pushing the boundaries: Most states define theft (including shoplift) as basically (1) moving an object any distance (2) with the intent to permanently deprive the owner (without consent).

A common myth is that you have to leave the store to shoplift - not true at all. A shoplift is completed when an item is moved with the intent to deprive the owner. Usually, taking the tags off an item on an isle w/ intent to deprive is legally enough, and taking the tags off and stuffing it in one's pocket's is factually strong case of shoplifting. You don't even have to actually deprive the owner - just moving an item, with intent to deprive, is enough, even if you immediately change your mind or otherwise leave the item with the owner. Even offering to pay at the end doesn't mean anything, other than to offer evidence that you never intended to deprive the owner without consent.

Also, any physical contact in many jurisdictions can elevate shoplift to robbery (theft by "force or fear"). California for example defines force as an minimal force - if the store owner places his hand on your shoulder (you can use reasonable nonlethal force to prevent theft as owner), and you push it off and exit the store while stealing, that's enough for robbery - a felony strike in California - definitely had cases like this (obviously I don't agree with this but just saying).

Honestly man I hope you stay out of those situations you describe (as in are not in the store when that happens) . They really are powder-kegs of legal troubles.

It's worse now, my mom is talking about wanting to sue them for harassment. That will give away our identities. I don't know why she can't just count her blessings they let us go. The man never laid a hand on her, he was just blocking her with his body. She's thinking up a story of what she's going to say. Says she's going to call an attorney tomorrow. She just wants some money out of it. And I might get caught in he middle. I'm just glad he stopped us in the store where it got resolved in that manner. My mom is just adding fuel to the fire that would have gone out on its own.

Much of what I wrote about the spirit asking to follow the law of karma is exactly why karma exists. I'm not saying that you can go against it, but I'm saying that your ability to forgive yourself is right there intermingled with what karma actually is: a choice to continue down the lines of responsibility.

(09-21-2013, 10:49 AM)kainous Wrote: [ -> ]I suppose that karma should not so much be labeled "cause and effect" as much as "choice and consequences" (or choice and responsibility). Allow me to explain:

A man throws a rock into the pond and it makes waves.

Choices:
* The logos chooses to creates laws (consequences) for the operation of its physical manifestation
* The man chooses to throw the rock
* The (spirit and the root of the mind of the) man chooses that the rock and pond follow the law of the logos (responsibility to the logos)
* The pond and rock choose to follow the laws of the logos (responsibility to the logos)

Consequence:
* The waves do not stop (consequences of following the logos)

Karma is the result of following through with the choices that have been made.

Therefore, here are following classifications (not hard classifications, because some can blur the line, and not complete either):
* Free will karma - the result of choosing free will for the effect of experience (example would be the choice not to know what the consequences of an action would be, therefore testing it out to learn)
* Birth karma - the preincarnative choices made to further experience a test (opportunity to apply) that was not previously completed
* Relationship karma - the preincarnative choices made in order to learn the consequences of previous actions
* Return karma - the choice to move towards growth by seeking

And supposedly, we are not entirely bound by the preincarnative choices either, but the choices have to change by convincing the spirit while we alive, and should come from the first distortion.

--
(edit) moved last line into consequences

In my opinion karma is a tool for growth/learning. It is apart of the learning and development mechanisms that helps bring one back to creatorhood. There is only One. Do you believe yourself to program/create truly benign or malovent aspects or laws for oneself? Or is it a system always setup to provide excatly what is needed? In absolute unity and synchronicity?

(09-21-2013, 02:01 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: [ -> ]How do we know we've forgiven ourselves and others from everything? Will one little nonforgiveness that is unconscious keep us on the cycle of Karma, doomed to repeat another cycle of incarnation?

I would think that nonforgiveness would not hold you back and make you keep reincarnating. Nobody could possibly remember every incident, which would mean you would reincarnate eternally here. Every bug that bit you, every person who flipped you off on the road, you cannot forgive them all if you do not remember. IMO

(08-07-2018, 12:28 PM)DungBeetle Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-21-2013, 02:01 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: [ -> ]How do we know we've forgiven ourselves and others from everything? Will one little nonforgiveness that is unconscious keep us on the cycle of Karma, doomed to repeat another cycle of incarnation?

I would think that nonforgiveness would not hold you back and make you keep reincarnating. Nobody could possibly remember every incident, which would mean you would reincarnate eternally here. Every bug that bit you, every person who flipped you off on the road, you cannot forgive them all if you do not remember. IMO

But at some point you no longer judge others for their actions because you seek instead to understand so forgiveness is complete.

I do not mean you no longer have preferences for things but rather that if people go against those preferences you do not judge but try to always understand through compassion.

If you can do that for self and other self karma stops.