If I would ask my Puerto Rican friend what his favorite dish--of all time--was, he would answer: whole roasted pig, a specialty of theirs.
I would then ask: Are you sure? Is that truly your CHOICE?
He would then, without hesitation, affirm his position.
But if I would ask my Saudi friend, what his favorite dish was--he may answer: roasted camel.
Is that truly his CHOICE? Why not roasted pig? That stuff is really good, I've tried it!
Okay perhaps I could express my point better with movies. My Indian friend's favorite movie actor: this BollyWood Superstar I've never heard of. My sister's favorite movie actor: Johnny Depp. And then maybe a year from now, I will find myself in the middle of the Panamanian jungle, visiting an isolated tribe and then asking one of them: By the way, who is your favorite movie actor? Oh, and do you like roasted camel?
His answer may be: What's a movie actor? What's a camel?
Why can't he make that choice?
So what is choice when the great majority of choices you are allowed to make are predetermined by opportunities beyond your control?
If the argument is that these very opportunities that are dictated by birth, then is choice then a pre-incarnative event?
If our higher selves have chosen these catalysts we encounter (in this life) and from these relatively limited opportunities (also pre-chosen), we make choices (in this life) based on our biases--biases that are an extrapolation of the sum of our experiences from previous also pre-chosen lives with pre-chosen opportunities, loaded with biases based on pre-choices and so on.
In this life, what is choice then?
(01-29-2010, 12:12 AM)NY1877 Wrote: [ -> ]If the argument is that these very opportunities that are dictated by birth, then is choice then a pre-incarnative event?
If our higher selves have chosen these catalysts we encounter (in this life) and from these relatively limited opportunities (also pre-chosen), we make choices (in this life) based on our biases--biases that are an extrapolation of the sum of our experiences from previous also pre-chosen lives with pre-chosen opportunities, loaded with biases based on pre-choices and so on.
In this life, what is choice then?
Hi NY1877- First of all you confused the heck out of me. 'The Choice' is a very loaded word in the context of Law of One. It implies the choice between STO and STS.
But coming back to your question. Let me restate my understanding of your question. You are asking- "if everything is predetermined by our higher self as evident by our different circumstances then how much control do we have in making in choosing?" please feel free to correct this...
My take is that you along with your higher self have created these setting for the learning opportunities. And of-course you are expected to pass these tests and learn from your lessons and chart your life and not. You will then keep getting repeated opportunities to learn the key lessons for that incarnations. Also you give yourself a lot of room for playing and learning new things while working on these lessons.
and nothing is beyond your control. Your higher self is part of you and accessible at all times. It is closer that your breath and heart beat is to you.
First off, I have as of yet to welcome you to the forums. Please accept my warm welcome. It is a pleasure to have you here
Now, to your post. I believe what you speak of, and please correct me if I am wrong, is free will?
(01-29-2010, 01:03 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]First off, I have as of yet to welcome you to the forums. Please accept my warm welcome. It is a pleasure to have you here
Now, to your post. I believe what you speak of, and please correct me if I am wrong, is free will?
NY1877- A very warm welcome from me as well...
Brothers, thank you for your interest.
First, I assume you are both male for this is a good way to clarify my point. So now, as you read these words I type, look at the clothing you wear.
Did you choose those clothes? Was that a conscious decision in this life?
I would argue that the choice was made in the pre-incarnative state.
Why? First consider that, in this life, you did not choose to be a male. That choice was pre-incarnative. So when you look at your chest, consider that your choice of what adorns it is governed by your gender which was not, in this life, your choice.
So if you were born a female, again a pre-incarnative decision, you would be wearing a bra. Would that be really an "in this life" choice then? So where does choice, in this life, come in? Will it be the style of the bra? The color?
I can argue that even to that level, your choice is pre-incarnative. Why? Will you prioritize comfort? Or will you be playfully sensual and wear a push-up? Will you be stylish? All these biases, we can see is again pre-determined by past life biases formed by pre-choices.
Furthermore, consider the quality of the bra. Will it be made in France, fashionable, expensive and "sweat shop" free. Or will it be made in China and bought at Walmart at super bargain prices? The factors that will influence the quality of the product you buy are economic and cultural, both pre-incarnative decisions.
Also consider being born in the jungle, another pre-incarnative choice. In that case, where female nudity is acceptable, you will be wearing no bra at all.
If choice is much influenced by pre-incarnative choices, which are again a function of pre-pre-pre-incarnative choices (going back to your first incarnation), what is choice in this life then?
Interesting topic, thanks for starting it.
Here is my first take:
Whats the difference in cosmic terms between roast pig and roast camel? These choices, like favorite movie stars and what to wear today are on the scale of the cosmos meaningless. What matters is choices in feelings and behavior, to love other self or not. To move beyond simple survival. Choices made 'in-between' about where and when to incarnate imo have nothing to do with such 'frivolity'. What we do is pick circumstance that give us the greatest opportunity to learn/experience/grow as intelligent beings. In this life we may choose to learn about humility and incarnate as a naked female in the jungle, or maybe about overcoming greed and come back as a Bill Gates ... our range of choice is thus constrained a bit by the lesson we are after.
I can see your point of view. I can also buy it as far as Biases go. So there are pre-incarnative selection of settings going on. And there is a long list of acquired biases through the many- many incarnations. So far so good. But what we do with this set-up is again free will.
Now as you wrote this thread. Did you make a choice? You could have not written it. You could have chosen different words. Or you could have chosen different topic. Are you saying that my response to your response to my response is all pre-incarnative choices. have you also chosen the emotions that you will feel when you read this. That is micro-management. I believe that there is some level of fixed set-up that happens in all lives. Some have more and some have less. But then there is a large area of choice based living in this density.
But then again it is your choice to not accept my choice about the topic; what is choice?.....just kidding
(01-29-2010, 02:04 AM)Chett Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting topic, thanks for starting it.
Here is my first take:
Whats the difference in cosmic terms between roast pig and roast camel? These choices, like favorite movie stars and what to wear today are on the scale of the cosmos meaningless. What matters is choices in feelings and behavior, to love other self or not. To move beyond simple survival. Choices made 'in-between' about where and when to incarnate imo have nothing to do with such 'frivolity'. What we do is pick circumstance that give us the greatest opportunity to learn/experience/grow as intelligent beings. In this life we may choose to learn about humility and incarnate as a naked female in the jungle, or maybe about overcoming greed and come back as a Bill Gates ... our range of choice is thus constrained a bit by the lesson we are after.
Chett, I apologize if I was not clear.
Trust me, frivolity has nothing to do with it. I have a habit of using simple life examples to communicate ideas.
New York 1877, my fate "in this life" not "that life" was sealed. My choices, perhaps 99% of it in "this life", were pre-determined by that date. But if I study what happened, the choice made in 1877 was also a function of an earlier date, and so on.
So what is choice
in this life? Example: Some of the books I thought I chose, I've actually read before.
No offense taken. I patiently await your input.
If I may explain this simply, I believe it will be most effectual.
This illusory incarnate experience we are each in is as a classroom. Prior to the incarnate experience, we brainstorm with our higher self and come to an agreement on what we wish to learn, a lesson plan, as it were. This is wholly our choice. When it comes to being male or female, that is more than 50% random, though we may have a bias towards selection if it will help in accomplishing our lessons. This bias does not ensure though that we get what we want as a gender each and every incarnate experience. With hundreds of lifetimes to go through, there is ample opportunity to learn gender specific lessons as both male and female. In truth, gender matters not, for we have an androgynous soul.
Now, though the lesson plans are pre-designed, it is up to us while in classroom to do as we wish. We can fool around, do our work with half an effort, or choose to do everything with all we can muster. We choose to get out of bed, what clothes to wear, what to eat, when to cross the street, what to eat... we choose to learn those lessons we desired to learn, or we don't pay attention and fail to learn them... everything while here is our choice.
Not even our own higher (future) self will make a decision for us, for each decision we make (now) is one we already made ourself (in our higher self's past).
We love ourself just the way we are for having made the choices we make now in our past
These choices make us who we are and who we will be.
Peregrinus,
Consider my concept of chained biases throughout incarnations. The inertia from the sum of all actions is remarkably powerful. These are often the forces that drive us to do things we do not understand.
From this, my only answer has been: The only choice in this life is how the next one will be. You are the link to the next chain.
Free will is the first distortion of the Law of One. There is no choice but that which you make yourself.
What each soul desires is to remove distortion. If the distortion remains after an incarnate experience, the lessons will be repeated until that distortion is removed. Then and only then will a new lesson be available to remove the next distortion.
Yes each life is linked, but not in the end and beginning, nor by the end or the beginning. They are linked by you, for just as you change from one shirt to the next each day, it is not the shirt that changes you, but you that changes the shirt.
Paradox is what the Choice is. Now, if I stick my left index finger in my right nostril, and my right index finger in my left nostril, then sing happy birthday to Ra with one eye closed, did my true higher self pre-determine this silly act? I don't know that it matters, it just matters that it certainly seems like my incarnate self is choosing to do so. Really, you can't solve this paradox with typed words on an Internet forum. You won't really find your answer here. The answer to the Question is only inside you for you to find for yourself. Once you truely figure it out, you will be awake, and you will laugh out loud.
(01-29-2010, 03:05 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]Free will is the first distortion of the Law of One. There is no choice but that which you make yourself.
What each soul desires is to remove distortion. If the distortion remains after an incarnate experience, the lessons will be repeated until that distortion is removed. Then and only then will a new lesson be available to remove the next distortion.
Yes each life is linked, but not in the end and beginning, nor by the end or the beginning. They are linked by you, for just as you change from one shirt to the next each day, it is not the shirt that changes you, but you that changes the shirt.
But if you take inertia into account, you will observe a remarkable trajectory that you CANNOT control
in this life.
If you think we have full control of
this life, then I recommend that you come with me to a poor country were there is mountain of garbage that 10,000 people feed off.
I did not say I have control, nor do I desire to in any way other than over my choices. I leave control to sts entities.
Have you thought that it is not for you or me to change the lives of those people we consider unfortunate, because perhaps living off that garbage is part of the catalyst for the lessons they chose to learn?
Quote:46.7 Ra: Control is the key to negatively polarized use of catalyst. Acceptance is the key to positively polarized use of catalyst.
Hello NY1877. It's quite impossible to understand what choice = free will is.
Paradox of Choice: Free Will and Destiny can be simultaneously perceived.
Paradoxes of Freedom: 1. If all had freedom, one individual part of all is free to remove another's freedom, and as such there is no freedom while all has freedom.
This leads to 2. To exist is an infringement on freedom, yet one has to exist to acquire it as freedom denies the possibility of non-existence where there is no freedom.
Leads to 3. The moment you realize that freedom does not matter, and that the feelings which causes this 'lack of freedom' can be denied, then you will be truly free, to do whatever you wish and feel whatever you wish. And yet, the decision itself was part of freedom.
In 1 you may see your higher self as restricting your own freedom. Thus, self to self removal of freedom.
In 2 you may see yourself incarnate upon this existence, where we all influence each other and thus there is no 'true' free will or choice.
In the end, you are that which is everything, which is beyond anything we might intellectually or reason about here.
But we can amuse ourselves with the distortions. Let go and trust that this paradox is intended and good. Go higher in consciousness instead of getting stuck in polarities. When one realizes that all polarities always will lead to paradoxes, then they've understood the fundamental nature of this (3rd) density and complete allowance towards all things can be maintained (this is my ideal at least).
So to get back to your original question, the choice in this life is exactly what you make it to be. You seem to have some theories about this.. you can see mine.
If we are all parts of the one, destined to return to the one you could view that as an absolute destiny, so no choice and no free will.
But, just as each drop of water is destined to return to the ocean it can get there fast or it can take a million years.
That the end of the road is known does not infringe on path chosen to get there.