Hello all
First post here
Since my awakening I have started changing a lot my diet. I suddenly stopped eating red meat, and when I eat meat, it is basically chicken or fish. My diet has included more fruits, vegetables, bread, eggs and dairy products which I love.
The point is that I have a little 4 year old ( actually a little wanderer too LOL ) and I am unsure what to do with her. She does not seem to fancy red meat either and she would only eat turkey sausages, so I preferably give her also chicken and fish. But my family tells me I am probably making a mistake for not introducing to her red meat.
The more I see how the animals suffer and are killed, the less I want meat... I know that even if you eat a salad you are "killing" a living being to consume its energy, there is no other way around that. However, I feel more for animals, and if I had more options I would try to even stop eating chicken and fish.
Yet many people tell me humans are carnivore... so now I am all mixed up. I do not mind about me, but I worry about feeding properly my girl.
Any feedback or suggestions ? your experiences ? thank you !!
Love,
Firefly
I don't see how you are making a mistake. No introduction is required at an early age. I have a childhood friend who was raised vegetarian. He ended up trying all meat in college. He continues to eat chicken to this day. In my opinion, not being introduced to a red meat at an early age is similar to not being introduced to any given food at an early age. Many people have tried new and exotic foods later in life (escargot anyone? octopus? caviar?). Others don't like trying new foods.
Either way, it's free will. Although there is an argument that this is an "essential lesson" in some way. But let's examine each case:
(1) Your daughter is the type to try new foods. She'll try red meat eventually - she's not missing anything. There's no problem here. If she realized she "missed out" it could be an important personal lesson for to try things for herself. She may not learn this lesson in such a strong manner if you introduced her to red meat at an early age.
(2) Your daughter is not the type to try new foods. In a certain way, you could be impinging on her free will choices by forcing her (or strongly encouraging her due to the nature of the parent-child relationship when she is a child) to try a new food since we've given that she's the type of person not to try new foods. However, this scenario turns on the fact that you don't consider trying new foods an essential lesson to be taught to children...which brings us the next case.
(3) You believe that trying new foods is an "essential lesson" (or some similar essential lesson that would argue for using your sway as a parent to encourage her to try red meat). Perhaps it is not a free will choice as much as it about teaching your daughter open-mindedness towards new foods and that this is a proper thing for a parent to teach a child (not something I necessarily agree with, but I can see this perspective). In my opinion on a broader perspective, children by virtue of their being born expect to be taught things by their parents while also respecting their free will out non-essential lessons. It's up to you to decide that this is a value important to teach her. (Certainly it's not alone in a vacuum as respecting all life and believing that showing this respect via of dietary choices is an "essential lesson" could also argue the other way - although I don't necessarily agree with this statement either and it does not totally apply to this case since she eats certain meats - just to show that there are potential values on both sides).
All in all, I wouldn't worry about it. She'll try red meat later on if she wants to, whether you want her to or not. Disclaimer: I grew up eating all sorts of meat, but I've been vegetarian for the past 2 years (with longer periods of vegetarianism in the past).
Cheers and welcome to the forum
xise
p.s. There are no real general health concerns about vegetarian (veggies+diary such as milk or cheese) or even vegan (no animal products what so ever) diets. There are vegan NFL record setting running backs - see Arian Foster, winning vegan bodybuilders, and vegetarians in India who have been vegetarian for thousands of years without any noted health effects - see Jainism. However, you do have to try harder to eat healthy on vegan diets since so much of our society structured toward non-vegan eating (being vegetarian isn't really that harder these days). Also, personal body needs can occasionally argue for a different diet; every individual has unique dietary needs such as gluten intolerance, allergies, lactose, diary intolerance, shellfish allergies etc, so it's important to always monitor one's health on any sort of diet.
(01-30-2014, 02:41 PM)Firefly Dancer Wrote: [ -> ]Hello all
First post here
Since my awakening I have started changing a lot my diet. I suddenly stopped eating red meat, and when I eat meat, it is basically chicken or fish. My diet has included more fruits, vegetables, bread, eggs and dairy products which I love.
The point is that I have a little 4 year old ( actually a little wanderer too LOL ) and I am unsure what to do with her. She does not seem to fancy red meat either and she would only eat turkey sausages, so I preferably give her also chicken and fish. But my family tells me I am probably making a mistake for not introducing to her red meat.
The more I see how the animals suffer and are killed, the less I want meat... I know that even if you eat a salad you are "killing" a living being to consume its energy, there is no other way around that. However, I feel more for animals, and if I had more options I would try to even stop eating chicken and fish.
Yet many people tell me humans are carnivore... so now I am all mixed up. I do not mind about me, but I worry about feeding properly my girl.
Any feedback or suggestions ? your experiences ? thank you !!
Love,
Firefly
One of my socmemcom has had a baby. He refuses red meat, poultry and fish all the same. Only when forced by his own hunger does he eat these things. My brother in spirit is a chef and has some rather interesting ideas about meat as such has a hard time accepting the vegetarianism of his child.
The essence of this story is that a child will reflect yourself and your views on the world much more than you'd think it might. Keeping nutritional values in check is good but realize we eat way too much meat today compared to what we're "biologically" used to. This has a definite effect on spirit and will and should be taken into consideration but perhaps not used as a definite rule of thumb.
Hello!
First of all, I would suggest to *not* introduce red meat for the sake of introducing it. That serves no purpose. Sadly, I would guess that if your family persists, then they have no idea what benefits there are to red meat even compared to light meat like chicken/fish. Truth is: there is none, red meat is objectively worse for your health, and for your kid's health as well. It has no benefits at all. At which point we arrive at "tradition", and that is scary territory, and definitely not something that can be argued about in a logical manner.
He/she is not my child. I would definitely try to show what is behind the meat (not necessarily the real videos of the slaughtering process, but just a general outline of what is behind factory processed meat), and let him/her draw the conclusions appropriately. The worst attack against honest meat consumption is naming stuff BigMac or MacBurger and not even attaching a living thing to the pack the kids order and eat in a regular fashion.
Hi and welcome
What I've found to be most beneficial is to understand and fully accept why I choose to eat what I eat. At first I didn't want to eat meat anymore because I felt guilty all the time, yet I wasn't convinced that other foodstuffs could provide the same amount of nutrition. So, I felt tired all the time and my hair began to fall out. Aside from my own insecurities about the subject I became a catalyst for my environment, which I didn't understand at the time, but all in all it caused me to switch back to eating meat. Now I've been meat-free for about a year, because of how 'dense' it made me feel, I did eat fish for awhile, until my body started developing digestive issues, then it kind of naturally fell away out of my diet. My point is that if it's a natural process, without guilt or judgment towards yourself/others, and you listen to your body it will guide you to the food it needs. I think that will automatically diminish any food issues regarding your daughter as well, as she will undoubtedly pick up on your energy.
Good luck to you Firefly, if your daughter doesn't fancy something, there's a reason, so you are doing her a favor then by
not insisting she try something because it's more "normal".
I'm a vegan and my dogs are as well (much more traditional carnivores than humans!) and we all do very well. In fact, a few weeks ago we bought a dozen organic eggs because sometimes it seems harder for my German shepherd to put on extra weight than my shih tzu, and after a couple weeks of eating them she got sick.
She has had a terrible cold and was very congested. It's the first time anyone's been sick in our house for a while, where as every winter before we went vegan my husband used to get pneumonia/bronchitis living in this cold wet environment.
I know a lot of people who have been vegetarians since they were very young and have never craved red meat. I think the biggest danger that I've witnessed in this case is to make sure the diet is heavy in vegetables and whole grains as opposed to dairy and processed carbs. The two longest running vegetarians I know are a bit on the overweight side because of this.
Welcome to the forum Firefly
!
Your child is lucky to have you as a mother such as you, who is mindful and thoughtful in carefully thinking thru this matter so that she may learn for herself what the best choices are. A developing child has nutritional needs as her body is forming. Each person has refined nutritional needs so I think one could try to understand specific needs. My mother and I luckily share very similar needs - we don't like red meat and we process greens better than proteins. She served all kinds of healthy foods and was a great role model who helped me to learn about healthy food choices.
I think parents teach children how to problem solve and become great decision makers. From that perspective, it would be great to teach children to eat healthy, whether it be vegan, vegetarian, or whatnot - eventually the child grows and decides for herself. How best could a parent educate the child to make her own decisions down the road? That said, at age 4 she is not at the stage of deciding for herself yet so introducing different foods may be important. Children will follow their parent's beliefs and ways of doing things until that time comes when they decide for themselves. The more choices available and openness to discuss choice-making, the more independent and conscientious child might grow up to be.
I believe it's a choice, that we eat what we need... and that doesn't factor in whether something is right or wrong thing to do. My family taught me to value and appreciate foods and so to me, that is important... that I honor the receiving of the food via gratitude and using energy wisely. No answer, just more to think about!
Hi Firefly! I've been a vegetarian for 42 of my 54 years, and raised my son vegetarian. He is now 25 and has never had a bite of meat in his life. He is stronger than all his friends, has a near-genius IQ, and has never been to a doctor for being sick. He just never got any of the usual childhood illnesses.
Children don't need to eat dead animals to be healthy, plain and simple. They don't need to drink the milk from animals either. However, there are some guidelines that you'd need to get educated on, to be sure that you're feeding your child a healthy diet. It's quite easy, really! There are a number of great books and websites about how to raise a healthy vegetarian/vegan child.
You might want to do a search on the terms 'meat' and 'vegetarian' in this section of the forum, for insights and support from a spiritual perspective. There are several threads offering lively debate.
10 bucks your son is a regular at KFC.
I have been veggie for about a year now, its seems to be good. Helped me lose some weight and stuff. Although i don't see a massive difference in things over all. I had more dreams and astral projections when i was drinking JD by the bottle and eating junk food funnily enough.
(01-30-2014, 02:41 PM)Firefly Dancer Wrote: [ -> ]Yet many people tell me humans are carnivore... so now I am all mixed up. I do not mind about me, but I worry about feeding properly my girl.
Humans are not carnivores, they are omnivores.
Too much tadoo is made about how we need meat. A complete protein (all essential amino acids) can be obtained by combining any grain with any legume (for example: rice and beans). Also, quinoa is a complete protein. Consider also that live (raw) foods have life force. So raw fruits and berries and nuts etc can be great snacks for a child.
I am a vegetarian (for most of my adult life), so I don't advocate eating meat. I know many vegetarians and vegans and even raw-fooders (one was a wrestler as in WWF and huge and strong), who are all healthy and vibrant.
I would add that the main thing would be to avoid foods which tax the system: anything white (sugar, flour). Head toward brown (whole grains) and green (veggies). And of course the wonderful foods of fruits and seeds.
Eggs can be thought of as "animal seeds" and if you want to include eggs for the protein and life force, I would suggest "free range." Even Walmart now has a brand of eggs called "Happy Eggs" from humanely treated, free-range chickens. Note that there is a difference between "free-range" and cage-free."
Rather than worry too much about what others say, as each person has a limited amount of info on the subject and certainly not your understanding of your child, poke around the Internet as Monica suggested, and perhaps dispell some of the myths about having to eat meat. Best of luck and thank you for being a caring, responsible parent.
(05-04-2014, 05:12 AM)Sagittarius Wrote: [ -> ]10 bucks your son is a regular at KFC.
Care to raise the stakes? How about $10k? You're on.
Would it matter to you if he decides to eat meat, Monica? Since you've said he's stronger than his friends. I find it very hard to believe that he hasn't had a bit of meat in his whole life, to be honest. Especially during his teens.
To be honest Monica, your praise of your son's achievements and intellect sound more due to you being his mother than an actual causal connection between these attributes and his abstaining from meat.
Meat is the most nutrient dense of all food types, it's not bad for you lawl but yeah, it's not 100% necessary you can get by without it just be prepared to compensate. The body exists in a state of balance which should be preserved if health is to be maintained, meat is an easy way of providing for many of these needs of the body but you can find substitutes.
Firefly posted this a long time ago by the way folks
(05-05-2014, 12:36 AM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]Would it matter to you if he decides to eat meat, Monica?
That is irrelevant, since he has chosen to not eat meat anyway.
(05-05-2014, 12:36 AM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]Since you've said he's stronger than his friends. I find it very hard to believe that he hasn't had a bit of meat in his whole life, to be honest. Especially during his teens.
Well, it's true.
By the way, it's a myth that vegetarians aren't strong.
Vegan Bodybuilders
(05-05-2014, 02:40 AM)Fang Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest Monica, your praise of your son's achievements and intellect sound more due to you being his mother than an actual causal connection between these attributes and his abstaining from meat.
I didn't say they were a direct result of not eating meat. I listed them just to show that someone brought up on a 100% vegetarian diet can indeed be strong, intelligent and healthy.
(05-05-2014, 02:40 AM)Fang Wrote: [ -> ]Meat is the most nutrient dense of all food types,
It also causes cancer and other diseases, and is cruel.
Well, it's none of my business but I think it is relevant, parenting-wise. Since you have quite strict, emotional beliefs regarding the subject, I can imagine it would be a very difficult decision for him to choose otherwise. Or to ever be completely honest.
And I totally misinterpreted him being strong, scusi!
carnivorous plants need a serious talking to
(05-05-2014, 11:59 AM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]Well, it's none of my business but I think it is relevant, parenting-wise.
What I meant by 'irrelevant' is that my personal feelings are irrelevant to the discussion about whether children can be raised without meat and be healthy.
It's also moot because the likelihood of him eating meat is nonexistent.
(05-05-2014, 11:59 AM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]Since you have quite strict, emotional beliefs regarding the subject, I can imagine it would be a very difficult decision for him to choose otherwise. Or to ever be completely honest.
No, not at all. It was never about being 'strict.' He was never forbidden to eat meat. We simply didn't eat it at our house, and he was raised with a love and respect for animals. He had plenty of opportunities to eat it if he had wanted to.
We also had/have very open, honest communication in our home.
Some assumptions have been made here that don't apply in our case.
(05-05-2014, 11:59 AM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]And I totally misinterpreted him being strong, scusi!
Not sure what you mean by that...can you explain?
I thought you implied he is stronger because he doesn't eat meat
If you don't mind me asking; Have you told him that eating meat is cruel and causes all kinds of diseases? Because that would be honest, that's what he undoubtedly picks (has picked)up from you. And if the words don't match the energy/how you truly feel, it's generally considered not so honest. Kids are often well-attuned to their parents emotions and how that corresponds to their words/actions. So, if you believe eating meat is cruel, yet you tell him it's ok to eat meat if he wants, it doesn't match up. And he probably won't actually believe you.
Parenting, in general, is a subject that's very dear to my heart so that's why I have little self-control on deciding whether I should post or not. It's not my intention to be intrusive, but if you consider it as such do tell.
(05-05-2014, 01:00 PM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]I thought you implied he is stronger because he doesn't eat meat
I simply stated that he is stronger than most (or all) of his friends who eat meat. One can conclude whatever they wish from that. He is of average height and build.
(05-05-2014, 01:00 PM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]If you don't mind me asking; Have you told him that eating meat is cruel and causes all kinds of diseases?
Of course. I also told him that smoking cigarettes can cause lung cancer.
(05-05-2014, 01:00 PM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]Because that would be honest, that's what he undoubtedly picks (has picked)up from you. And if the words don't match the energy/how you truly feel, it's generally considered not so honest. Kids are often well-attuned to their parents emotions and how that corresponds to their words/actions. So, if you believe eating meat is cruel, yet you tell him it's ok to eat meat if he wants, it doesn't match up. And he probably won't actually believe you.
I never told him eating meat was ok. I said he had plenty of opportunities to eat meat if he wished. Kids have been known to do stuff their parents didn't approve of.
(05-05-2014, 01:00 PM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]Parenting, in general, is a subject that's very dear to my heart so that's why I have little self-control on deciding whether I should post or not. It's not my intention to be intrusive, but if you consider it as such do tell.
It's not so much intrusive as it is off-topic to the conversation. I offered my own experience as an example to show that children can be raised vegetarians. You seem to be turning it into an analysis of my parenting.
I will say simply that all parents influence their kids, and that is as it should be. And kids tend to rebel when they are teens. My son's teenage years didn't include meat. That just wasn't something he wanted to do.
I think kids should be given more credit for making their own decisions.
:idea: Many children have a natural aversion to meat once they find out it's a dead animal. In most cases, the parents insist that the child eat the dead animal anyway. So rather than assuming we had strict rules in our house to keep our child from eating meat, why not consider that we simply flowed with our child's natural love of animals? We simply allowed him to be what many children are naturally: animal-lovers.
Y'all are talking about me as if I'm not here! Kidding, I rarely visit, but she emailed me this thread. Anything you want to ask me directly, Melissa?
You seem to be considering the parent's role in the parenting equation at the expense of the child's. As the mind body spirit complex matures, it will undergo the catalyst it has chosen to experience, regardless of the veiled parent complex's wishes. The role of the parent is to provide universal love, which is by definition infinitely supportive love; supportive of all sovereign choices a child may make. I have tasted cooked animal flesh a handful of times, and smelled it far too often. I have never had a desire to consume it. I would equate it to also never having the desire to smoke cigarettes.
Currently I'm busy building lean muscle mass with weight training, emulated barefoot running, and extremely nutrient dense sources, mostly vegan. And of course, 99% of the credit goes to the fact that the 80% of my body that is water is structured water, which allows a level of nutrient absorption, muscle performance and muscle recovery that is unmatched without consuming structured water.
And Fang, you are wrong. Look up kale vs beef on protein, for example.
(05-05-2014, 11:59 AM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]Since you have quite strict, emotional beliefs regarding the subject
That's quite an assumption, after such a short conversation. Perhaps you are confusing
emotions with
conviction.
(05-05-2014, 11:59 AM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]I can imagine it would be a very difficult decision for him to choose otherwise.
I had extremely strict parents. Kids tend to rebel more, not less, if the parents are excessively strict.
Icipher, I have no idea who you are, so, no.
Monica, the assumption isn't just based on this conversation. But I see we have very different opinions/perspectives about the subject, which tend to lead to endless discussions. So I'll bow out politely. Thank you for responding.
Icipher is my son - the person we've been talking about.
So he's the best one to address your questions and assumptions, Melissa.
(05-05-2014, 01:45 PM)Icipher Wrote: [ -> ]Y'all are talking about me as if I'm not here!
(05-05-2014, 02:51 PM)Monica Wrote: [ -> ]Icipher is my son
how did she not get that?
i'll tell u how: bc of all that god damn KFC she's been eating
...
(05-05-2014, 02:42 PM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]Monica, the assumption isn't just based on this conversation.
I don't recall ever engaging in conversation with you before.
At any rate, strong convictions about eating animals does not equal strictness in parenting. That is quite a leap! (Nor does it equal strong emotions either.)
(05-05-2014, 02:42 PM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]But I see we have very different opinions/perspectives about the subject, which tend to lead to endless discussions. So I'll bow out politely. Thank you for responding.
As you wish. I will say, though, that Icipher rarely visits the forum, so you have no idea how rare this opportunity is, to ask him directly!
(05-05-2014, 02:42 PM)Melissa Wrote: [ -> ]bow out
If you have a compelling argument, please, respond.
Quote:And Fang, you are wrong. Look up kale vs beef on protein, for example.
I'm aware of the nutritional qualities of kale, I used to be a vegetarian. Protein isn't the only nutrient you want (need) out of food lawl. Maybe I should clarified that I really should have said "most dense of essential nutrients". Also, lot of these "vegetable superfood" tables on the net leave out a lot of important aspects of nutrition, seriously cherry picked information to push some sort of (vegetarian? lol) agenda.
Health is really more important than a feel good ideology so if it works for you that's great but to emotionally charge your points in some sort of persuasive measure is questionable.
Quote:It also causes cancer and other diseases, and is cruel.
Like coronary heart disease from the saturated fat? Oh wait that got exposed as a popular misconception, like a whole bunch of other misguided claims about the effects on health meat has.
As for cruelty, it's important to consider that the eating of meat was around before Descartes lawl. People are cruel, get over it lol
(05-05-2014, 07:24 PM)Fang Wrote: [ -> ]Like coronary heart disease from the saturated fat? Oh wait that got exposed as a popular misconception, like a whole bunch of other misguided claims about the effects on health meat has.
You are correct that it's not the saturated fat (though excess saturated fat isn't good...the only thing that got 'exposed' was that trans fats are worse).
It's the animal
protein that causes cancer and acidity which leads to inflammation which leads to heart disease and many other diseases.
(05-05-2014, 07:24 PM)Fang Wrote: [ -> ]As for cruelty, it's important to consider that the eating of meat was around before Descartes lawl.
Yeah, it's quite a barbaric planet we live on. War has been around that long too, so I guess that makes war ok?
(05-05-2014, 07:24 PM)Fang Wrote: [ -> ]People are cruel, get over it lol
Yes, people are cruel on this planet. Cruelty is an STS trait, and this planet is of mixed polarity at this point. We can, however, choose not to participate.
Quote:Yeah, it's quite a barbaric planet we live on. War has been around that long too, so I guess that makes war ok?
That's quite a jump for a comparison. The reason I brought Descartes up is because it was he who first brought the formalised idea of animals being of a mechanistic nature to western culture, and who feels bad about "killing" something soulless? The point is, even before that man people had been killing and eating animals, even (especially?) in animistic and polytheistic cultures where animals were seen as harbouring not only a soul, but divinity. Perhaps it was necessary to survival?
I personally do not enjoy war but see the value and at times necessity of such things.
Quote:Yes, people are cruel on this planet. Cruelty is an STS trait, and this planet is of mixed polarity at this point. We can, however, choose not to participate.
Cruelty is not an STS trait, it's a trait you don't approve of and have associated with another thing of don't approve of (STS) lol, where in the Ra Material does it say cruelty is an STS trait?
You can choose not to participate in the debacle if you wish, I think it's good that you want to strive for something more noble than cruelty, but self righteousness is not noble.