I have been contemplating desire lately i have come to some conclusions.
All desire is based on our attachment to the factor of judgement, that which is good or that which is bad. The attachment to the concept of good/bad leads to grasping and aversion. This in turn leads to suffering.
It can then be said that it is our desire that is the cause of suffering, so we make effort to give up desire only to realize that we are desiring to be desireless. This is simply the opposite extreme of indulging in desire. This gives rises to a seeming paradox to desire is to suffer and to be desireless is also to suffer.
The middle way can then perhaps be seen as simply being mindful of our desires not trying to overcome them nor indulging in them. It is in this awareness we can grow in acceptance of the desires within the self and make the conscious choice to cultivate those desires which are of compassionate nature and avoid those desires which are of a hateful nature, yet doing so in non-attached manner.
Thus the awareness cultivates the acceptance the acceptance the compassion the compassion the understanding and the understanding the wisdom/insight. Both the good/bad functioning in a balanced manner.
What do you think?
Conscious awareness is really the key to ending the bonds of suffering, regardless of activity. The awareness is cultivated through discipline and is able to apprehend (not comprehend or understand) inherent unity, which is also known as "perfection".
"The decision to contemplate perfection in discipline is quite improbable without the veil."
"To the disciplined entity, all things are open and free."
"As the entity grows in self-acceptance and awareness of catalyst the location of the comfortable seating of these experiences will rise to the new true-color entity"
"as a mind/body/spirit complex becomes aware of the process of spiritual evolution, more and more of the activities of the mind and body which precipitate activity are caused by those portions of the mind/body/spirit complex which are articulated by the archetypes of Transformation."
"The seeker seeks the One. This One is to be sought, as we have said, by the balanced and self-accepting self, aware both of its apparent distortions and its total perfection. Resting in this balanced awareness, the entity then opens the self to the universe which it is. The light energy of all things may then be attracted by this intense seeking, and wherever the inner seeking meets the attracted cosmic prana, realization of the One takes place"
"There is no entity without help, either through self-awareness of the unity of creation or ...."
also
http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...#pid150201
Regarding the desire aspect Matt1, I largely disagree with your conclusions, but I totally understand why you say what you say, because your thoughts make sense, but are perhaps a bit overgeneralized in my opinion.
In short, judgment/condemnation can give birth to many unhealthy things, including unhealthy desire. But judgment/condemnation is not the cause of desire. You can have desire without judgment/condemnation. For example, the STO path is at heart a desire to serve others without judgment or condemnation.
But desire itself is fine. It is not to be overcome. Attachment is separate, and attachment to desire is unhealthy. Attachment is the lack of acceptance and lack of understanding that not all desires can be fulfilled. You can have desire without attachment.
Search Ra for the word "desire." Desire has a bad rap in my opinion due to insufficient understanding of desire in modern religions (especially most interpretations of Buddhism) and spiritual systems, and due to many desires stemming from distracting impulses and unhealthy judgment/condemnation and due to attachment. But deep desire I think is very valuable, grounding, and useful in our journey. Fulfilling deep desires and dreams, without attachment, is part of what makes life so beautiful.
Quote:18.5 Questioner: Thank you. I have a question here from Jim that I will read verbatim: “Much of the mystic tradition of seeking on Earth holds that belief that the individual self must be erased or obliterated and the material world ignored for an entity to reach ‘nirvana,’ as it’s called, or enlightenment. What is the proper role of the individual self and its worldly activities in aiding an entity to grow more into the Law of One?”
Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.
The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.
The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.
All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.
It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.
....
73.11 Questioner: Desire and will are key factors in the process. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. We would add one quality. In the magical personality desire, will, and polarity are the keys.
If desire is based on some judgment and attachment then how would that explain the desire to serve and the desire to just be? I agree with xise that the term has a bad rap, esp among the buddhism/eastern philosophy realm...
To me sometimes the desire to serve becomes a let down bc I set my expectations high. Yet the desire to serve is kind of neutral but how I interpret or understand my experience can be the source of my discontent... so it's not really about the desire but the judgments or assessment of self in light of this desire to serve.
In a psychological sense I'd like to reiterate that desire is synonymous to needs, which is considered a natural part of human developmental experience. We have certain needs - for food, for safety, for companionship, etc., and in itself those needs/desires are neither good nor bad. Suffering can occur when we have unconscious desires having major impact on what we do, which can create situations that we find difficult. The goal is to make unconscious desires/needs to be more conscious bc there may be certain tendencies that hinder our developmental process (i.e., process of maturing). An example is one's desire to serve may be from this unconscious desire to be needed by others bc person is feeling lonely. In other people this desire to serve may be due to this sense of being unable to trust life's process or other people to resolve their own problems so there is a need to interfere with others' progress by doing things for them. Lots of examples.
There is no progress without desire, because desire is what directs your will. If desire is unconsciously motivated, then and only then do you have attachment. Attachment is what supports suffering. Most desires have, within them, components which are unconsciously motivated because that's what makes it compelling. Through desire we pursue wholeness and the disparity between the current condition and that wholeness creates the opportunity for seeking.
Desire is a function of a belief of a negation of beliefs that lead to an incoherence in belief. The seeking of coherence in beliefs would be desires. This seeking can only be seen to be primordial.
Adonai could you illustrate your point with an example from life experience?
I desired to "know" reality. I found "knowingness" was an absolute that could only be based on a series of absolutes. With absolution being the negation of possible beliefs that could be later found to be believable, I found myself at an impasse with realistic thought and the concept of "knowledge" as it is currently subjective.
In other words, I found my belief in reality incoherent with what could be possibly seen and believed. I seek coherence in the face of this. This is my desire or my seeking of coherence in the face of primordial incoherence; e.g., seeking of "unity, "knowledge," "completion," "perfection," etc.
Another example:
I believed or "knew" (coherent belief within context) I did not have a life partner. This was incoherent with my belief in the belief of wanting a life partner, which stems down to simply a belief of believing in incoherence of my reality or the series of beliefs that constitute it. Thus I sought a series of beliefs or "knowledges" that lead to me believing or "knowing" I have a wife.
First we must ask, what is suffering?
Suffering is the negative emotional response to desire. Whether it be a desire to have something, or a desire for something to go away, it does not matter.
When one eradicates desire through purification of mind/body/spirit complex (removing distortions) we necessarily eradicate suffering. One way to achieve this goal is via vipassana meditation as taught by Gautama the Buddha.
That being said, even when we eradicate suffering, we will still experience pain and pleasure. However, we will not have attachment to pain or pleasure. No attachment, no suffering. That is why it is said, "Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional."
It is an error to believe that the eradication of desire causes suffering. The result is quite the opposite. For when one has reached the total eradication of desire, one reaches nirvana, and all that remains is the ecstasy of undistorted love/light.
Eradicating desire is the eradication of the self. The self is only desire for to desire to be, to believe in the self is to have desire. Are you not a self even in your primary nature as the creator? Have you not established what is before you as your identity? Does the creator desire to cease this entirely? Or are we not inherently fulfilled in desire by the desires we experience?
Doesn't there have to be a self there to perceive the idea of desire before desire can be experienced? I quite disagree that self = desire. Desire in itself con-notates "something" having "something else" which necessitates a self prior to desiring stemming from the self.
Something = A coherent belief in a thing = A thought = A will = A will to be a thing/have a thing = Desire
Idealistic monist philosophy in a nutshell.
That reads to me as incredibly convoluted and confused, but if you say so aha
I guess I just can't get in to your "mind-centric" viewpoint as I do not believe the mind to be the ultimate source of self or awareness but rather to be a tool or interface for infinity to interact with itself.
Also, not sure if you are thus equating love with desire and thus with the Logos, which to me is such a corruption of thought I don't even want to get in to it aha Reducing love to desire is like reducing fire to a flame.
I simply use the premise of no separation whatsoever. I'm left with my very perspective being a direct abstraction of all things. It all relates in one way and I find that to be consciousness. I do not believe our awareness is in any way directly separate from the origin of everything but is a direct in-line image of it.
(05-05-2014, 04:25 PM)Tanner Wrote: [ -> ]That reads to me as incredibly convoluted and confused, but if you say so aha
I guess I just can't get in to your "mind-centric" viewpoint as I do not believe the mind to be the ultimate source of self or awareness but rather to be a tool or interface for infinity to interact with itself.
Also, not sure if you are thus equating love with desire and thus with the Logos, which to me is such a corruption of thought I don't even want to get in to it aha Reducing love to desire is like reducing fire to a flame.
That's a scary thought. If the Logos desired anything, I guess we would see more of that thing.
(05-04-2014, 10:59 AM)Matt1 Wrote: [ -> ]The middle way can then perhaps be seen as simply being mindful of our desires not trying to overcome them nor indulging in them. It is in this awareness we can grow in acceptance of the desires within the self and make the conscious choice to cultivate those desires which are of compassionate nature and avoid those desires which are of a hateful nature, yet doing so in non-attached manner.
how would you describe or list some of your current desires Matt?
It seems to me that desire is what creates catalyst.
We desire things and attract the catalyst to polarise either way.
Along the STO path, when we desire something, and receive the opportunity for it, and then neglect that opportunity. We then get nudged towards things that we don't infact want. Because something inside us pushes us towards experience.
So this might be some of the metaphysical rules behind why the STS path is allowed to give people what they don't want.
(05-06-2014, 07:55 AM)Phoenix Wrote: [ -> ]So this might be some of the metaphysical rules behind why the STS path is allowed to give people what they don't want.
It still confuses me as to why anyone would want the path of that which is not, getting what they do not want. And pushing for 95% dedication in this path.
I wonder if 4th density negative is a nightmare world, or if it's actually appreciated by those on the STS path.
(05-05-2014, 09:53 PM)Bring4th_Plenum Wrote: [ -> ] (05-04-2014, 10:59 AM)Matt1 Wrote: [ -> ]The middle way can then perhaps be seen as simply being mindful of our desires not trying to overcome them nor indulging in them. It is in this awareness we can grow in acceptance of the desires within the self and make the conscious choice to cultivate those desires which are of compassionate nature and avoid those desires which are of a hateful nature, yet doing so in non-attached manner.
how would you describe or list some of your current desires Matt?
I am not really sure how i would put them in to words, i am currently dealing with perhaps only one desire that i see as out of balance, although i accept that there will be lots of different little things
How do we know if a desire is not in balance? Because it doesn't seem natural?
(05-06-2014, 01:40 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]How do we know if a desire is not in balance? Because it doesn't seem natural?
How does one define natural?
I'd say you know a desire is out of balance if you find yourself thinking about it a lot and debating internally whether or not it is 'balanced' (or whatever other term you want to use) or worth pursuing.
(05-06-2014, 01:58 PM)Spaced Wrote: [ -> ] (05-06-2014, 01:40 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]How do we know if a desire is not in balance? Because it doesn't seem natural?
How does one define natural?
I'd say you know a desire is out of balance if you find yourself thinking about it a lot and debating internally whether or not it is 'balanced' (or whatever other term you want to use) or worth pursuing.
I don't know. Guilt can cause confusion and cause one to conclude something that is balanced to be imbalanced.
If you truly remove guilt from your beingness (conscious and subconscious mind) , then examination of the process of the debate itself can indeed be useful.
I don't hold guilt over my desires. But they are not held by the majority of humans.
I do sometimes wonder if the bias I hold is beneficial to my spiritual development.
As in, can it help me seek Creator more efficiently?
(05-06-2014, 02:08 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]I don't hold guilt over my desires. But they are not held by the majority of humans.
I do sometimes wonder if the bias I hold is beneficial to my spiritual development.
As in, can it help me seek Creator more efficiently?
Do you see the Creator in your bias?
(05-07-2014, 02:57 AM)Tanner Wrote: [ -> ] (05-06-2014, 02:08 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]I don't hold guilt over my desires. But they are not held by the majority of humans.
I do sometimes wonder if the bias I hold is beneficial to my spiritual development.
As in, can it help me seek Creator more efficiently?
Do you see the Creator in your bias?
Since they're usually sexual, I'm not thinking necessarily thinking of Creator. But I guess I could.
I guess if one is comfortable with the nature of one's sexual desires then red ray is maybe balanced...Yet if for some reason one's desires begin to effect other parts of our lives (e.g., how we relate to other people, esp to those who may not be accepting or understanding of one's desires). That could possibly mean orange/yellow ray blockages or at least catalyst around it.
I guess this is why interacting with others is important, esp since on 3D earth we have so many different distortions and whatnot... Had we stayed in a bubble of people who were highly accepting and understanding or totally isolated ourselves, it would be difficult to experience catalyst, therefore no real opportunity for growth.
So am wondering whether the catalyst that comes with our desires thru our interactions with other people & society is what makes learning more efficient in 3D. Ra said we have a shorter lifespan on 3D so we do need catalyst e.g., this sense of separation and conflicts.
(05-07-2014, 05:31 PM)reeay Wrote: [ -> ]So am wondering whether the catalyst that comes with our desires thru our interactions with other people & society is what makes learning more efficient in 3D. Ra said we have a shorter lifespan on 3D so we do need catalyst e.g., this sense of separation and conflicts.
(Bold is my own.)
reeay, is "efficient" a word that applies? Not that I'm terribly consciously familiar with other third-density experiences (read: zero familiarity with other experiences), but our own third-density experience exhibits system-wide
inefficient use of catalyst, and therefore inefficient learning.
Maybe our multitude of desires (exercises in confusion though they may often be) creates not a more
effecient experience per se, but rather a more
catalytic third-density experience; one that tends to motivate/accelerate growth and the development and will and faith.
Just riffing on your good post.
Doesn't most catalyst go from mind to body unconsciously? As in we don't even notice most catalyst before it affects our bodies. This is what I gather from GLB's mention of inefficient use of catalyst.
Anyway, I don't feel judgmental about my desires. I'm glad I have them. They make life exciting to live. They make life worth living. I'll be glad when I can integrate them, and fully accept those that might seem unnatural. Because they too bring me great satisfaction.
My greatest desire is to merge with Creator, after a dream that I had of doing so. But that'll have to wait. I guess not having that now proves to be catalyst for me.
(05-08-2014, 10:09 AM)Bring4th_GLB Wrote: [ -> ] (05-07-2014, 05:31 PM)reeay Wrote: [ -> ]So am wondering whether the catalyst that comes with our desires thru our interactions with other people & society is what makes learning more efficient in 3D. Ra said we have a shorter lifespan on 3D so we do need catalyst e.g., this sense of separation and conflicts.
(Bold is my own.)
reeay, is "efficient" a word that applies? Not that I'm terribly consciously familiar with other third-density experiences (read: zero familiarity with other experiences), but our own third-density experience exhibits system-wide inefficient use of catalyst, and therefore inefficient learning.
Maybe our multitude of desires (exercises in confusion though they may often be) creates not a more effecient experience per se, but rather a more catalytic third-density experience; one that tends to motivate/accelerate growth and the development and will and faith.
Just riffing on your good post.
Yeah maybe efficient might not be the best word as it is for something like polarization being efficient, etc. What I meant was without catalyst that comes from our desires and our choices and whatnot, we'd be bored as hell and having less opportunities for growth when we have little time here on 3D. Yep more catalystic.