My partner and I rent a room in a shared household.
The house is owned by two sisters. One of them lives with her own family at another house. The other, our landlady, splits her time each week between the house and an out of state job, where she stays at the spare room of another family member.
The landlady's guy is at the house most of the time, except when he occasionally visits her out of state rather than her coming back here.
There's another couple here, who often party hard with the rock star drug scene but are fairly mellow sweethearts at home. The guy used to be in the military and is big on how military, prison, etc. can wake up a drifting person and give them a sense of focus and self-discipline. Then there's a couple of empty small bedrooms left over. It's a big house.
Into one of the small bedrooms moved the deeply troubled nephew of the landlady. He's suffered for years from schizophrenia, depression and bipolar disorder. He's been given heavy duty medication that just makes him sleepy, and clueless counseling that doesn't resolve anything. He has terrible inner pain and emptiness from his father abandoning his family when he was just a few years old, and from other ups and downs (mostly downs) throughout his life. Since he just turned 18, his Mom doesn't want to have to take care of him any more. His family's Catholic and he'd like to believe in God but doesn't know what meaning his life could have. When he's prayed, he hasn't felt any different.
His way of dealing with this has been to take lots and lots of various drugs. He was kicked out of high school for dealing dope. He was later able to get a medical marijuana prescription. There's some brain damage but it's not clear to me if this was before or after he started taking all the drugs, both official and self-medicating.
His grandfather just died and left him a lot of money. Invested responsibly, the interest would easily cover his basic cost of living. He's blown through a lot of it on various drugs and stupid mistakes. He supposes that if he could only get busy with a girlfriend, that would solve his feeling of emptiness.
I could tell something was wrong, but I didn't know all the history until tonight.
The kid just got three pit bull puppies and put 'em in the backyard, and a python whose terrarium was on the kitchen counter for a week until he got around to taking the snake up to his room. The aunt has a strict no pets rule for the house.
A few days ago the kid disappeared without a trace. The roommates had to buy dog food. A nice young family who's good friends of the rock stars came by and the kids loved playing with the puppies. The landlady, who's out of town for the weekend, said she was going to have her brother who's in town come and toss the kid out tomorrow, whether or not he had another place to go.
The rock stars went out this evening and said they'd be back tomorrow, but give 'em a call if the kid showed up. There was a fear that he might destroy the vintage guitar rig.
The kid arrived back tonight. I happened to be up late in the living room, surfing the web on the couch. I was bored but couldn't get to sleep. I didn't have much concentration to write, so I just poked around at some pointless stuff... found a nice Mahjong game. I finally figured some spiritual conversation would be interesting, so I opened up this site to see what's up. Just then the doorbell rang.
The prodigal son returned, without his house key. He came back from a few days of taking 30 ecstasy pills, a dozen acid hits and a few other things I can't remember. He thought he bought some friendship by paying for the whole crowd of people he doesn't know to go to a fun spot, but when the money ran out they abandoned him. While on acid he saw visions of the lizard people ghosts who hate him. He had goosebumps while telling all this. His phone battery had died and it didn't occur to him to try to call anyone from a pay phone. It's cold tonight and he came back at midnight with just shorts and a T shirt.
We had an interesting conversation for a couple of hours. He sounds genuinely remorseful and sorrowful for messing up. He realizes that suicide would leave behind a lot of hurt and confused people. He realizes that trying to solve disrespect by gaining it with a gun is not a good option for him any more. He realizes what he's been doing doesn't work and he has to learn something better.
I told him that I also haven't had any direct spiritual experiences, but I do think that some people try to help and serve others at least half the time, some choose to be manipulative SOB's, most people are too busy with their worries to make a choice, and spiritual forces try to push us to see which way we'll go. If there is free will, it means people have the right to mess up and be hurtful. If there is a God or spiritual forces, they respond to sincere requests for help. Maybe life doesn't have an intrinsic meaning, but we get to choose what our lives mean. It would be best for someone who's not emotionally stable to not take acid trips that bring him face to face with the ghost lizard people. Maybe learning how to be responsible is enough of a challenge for now. He liked those ideas a lot.
I think within the next few days: The dogs will wind up with a caring home. The snake will likely go to a pet store. The guns will wind up in the care of the military guy until they're sold. A local 12-step group will have a new member sponsored in. A one-month transition plan will lead to the kid's next home: a motorhome, studio apartment, or room in a sober living house. Counseling from someone equipped to have these kinds of heavy talks as often as he needs will be available.
My partner happened to have insomnia and joined the conversation with her own point of view about spiritual matters and life choices, pretty much reinforcing the same ideas.
After releasing some overdue tears, the kid finally had a few new ideas to ponder about how to turn over a new leaf.
The kid decided to smoke a bowl and then go to bed. The rock stars got their request call and a suggestion that they wait and see what happens rather than try to enforce their own version of discipline on the situation. The partner has insomnia and your Questioner doesn't really have any questions about all of this. Just noting with interest the providential coincidence that the kid happened to be greeted by someone in a mood to stay up late and wax metaphysical.
Thanks for letting me share my experience. I stayed up long past my bedtime, and tomorrow will likely be an action-packed day of further catalyst. I hope to have time to get online at some point tomorrow.
Damn Questioner...that's heavy.
And on top of all that, I had a dream last night that was VERRRRY similar to the situation you just described. To make a long story short, I feel as if my dream was a reflection of what you just went through with that kid, and talking to him.
This life is super mysterious, and mega weird. Anyway, it sounds like if this kid is going to get some stability in his life, you did an awesome job at getting him pointed in the right direction
Godspeed!
(02-20-2010, 07:33 AM)Turtle Wrote: [ -> ]This life is super mysterious, and mega weird. Anyway, it sounds like if this kid is going to get some stability in his life, you did an awesome job at getting him pointed in the right direction
One cannot point another in any direction. The other must do this for them self. Good intentions keep drug users able to use.
The kid obviously has drug problems, and unfortunately this is for him to decide. Kicking him on his a$$ into the street would be the best place to start. Sorry for the harshness of these words, but they convey the harshness of what one must do.
Actions result in consequences. This is a most important lesson for each and every one of us, being even more important for those using drugs.
Turtle, thanks for the encouragement.
Peregrinus, I don't think he'd last long on the streets. Here is what I imagine would be best.
Get the dogs to a loving home that can take care of them.
Get good medical and mental health care so his brain chemistry is stabilized.
Get into a sober living household so he can learn to be responsible for himself. His mother has picked up after him most of his life and I think he doesn't know how to cook. I know he doesn't know how to handle money.
Or, have his own studio apartment or motorhome, and someone who randomly checks in a couple of times a week to see how he's doing.
Between sober living and something like a couple of 12 step meetings each week, start a journey of sobriety in community.
He liked that I respected his interpretation of his vision. As I see it, the problem is not the particular drugs he took, but his desperate desire to not have feelings or connection to the reality of his life.
I think he truly wants to choose a way to be of service to others. But he is clueless about how to do that.
He has an interest in a professional training program that would take a few months and get him into a steady job helping people. But he's got to get sober and balanced first. What good would be classes he skips out on?
I think with the massive drug misuse, he's opened the door to powerful negative spiritual forces who want to make him their next trophy. He also might have projected the brainstem's lizard-like survival fears as outside forces. Who knows? Certainly everything about the "mindset and setting" of his bad trips wouldn't meet Leary's criteria for respectful use of entheogenic.
The hurt little boy who wonders if Daddy abandoned him at 5 for not being good enough has a few tears left to cry. Once that pain's released, I think he's not going to try to be his own shaman any more.
He wanted to trust me as his guide, but I told him I can't take on that obligation now. Once he's out of the house, I could only be available now as a friend who has a conversation with him every week or so.
If he gets chances like this - which I think his family will help make possible - and then blows it, yeah, he's on his own.
It's amazing timing that Kristy's situation came up recently (including Blade8r's description of how his Dad taught responsibility). And that the rock stars were gone. And that the landlady was gone. And that I was sick earlier in the day, so I had to skip an invitation with friends for the evening. And that for some strange reason, I couldn't go to sleep myself. As my partner likes to say of the "spiritual posse's chess game:" "Good work, guys."
I shall refrain from further comments. You will do as you desire, just as he will do as he desires. I accept all as perfect, as God desires.
(02-20-2010, 12:52 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]One cannot point another in any direction. The other must do this for them self.
"a poignant example of both the necessity and the near-hopelessness of attempting to teach."
(02-20-2010, 12:52 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]The kid obviously has drug problems, and unfortunately this is for him to decide. Kicking him on his a$$ into the street would be the best place to start.
Actions result in consequences. This is a most important lesson for each and every one of us, being even more important for those using drugs.
Sounds like a compassion vs. wisdom issue.
Questioner Wrote:It's amazing timing that Kristy's situation came up recently (including Blade8r's description of how his Dad taught responsibility). And that the rock stars were gone. And that the landlady was gone. And that I was sick earlier in the day, so I had to skip an invitation with friends for the evening. And that for some strange reason, I couldn't go to sleep myself. As my partner likes to say of the "spiritual posse's chess game:" "Good work, guys."
+1. It sounds like you are listening to the still small voice.
Peregrinus, I would welcome your further comments. I do respect that the kid and his family are the ones with the final decisions. Could you please help me see how the outcome I envision is at risk of unwise enabling? Why do you see "tough love" as the better way to go? At this point I'm just trying to gather additional ideas and perspectives. The landlady's not returned our voice mail yet and the rock stars are still out painting the town red. So this is a perfect time for me to learn something new.
Compassion is waste of positive energy, of love, if not accepted, and drug users are manipulative by requirement of environment. When one is in the dark, one must seek the light, yet the addict MUST choose this them self. More exactly, they must have both the want and the need. If available, they will steal the energy from one of light, the one offering compassion and love, to allow them to remain in the dark. I've been there; almost had my incarnate life force drained trying to help. By nature, addiction is a deep exploration of the sts side of oneself. It is their choice. Allow them to explore. When/if they decide to choose life, they will do so on their own terms. Until then, all help will be used to further their own agenda.
Treatment facilities are successful in having 1.5% of addicts remain clean , a fact they do not advertise. By comparison, 7% of addicts clean up on their own. They don't need help. They need to decide, and only they can do this for them self. This leaves 91.5% that end up in jail, institutions, or die. Addiction is not pretty.
And then comes the effect on those that get involves with an addict such as myself. It almost destroyed me.
When I was at a support meeting several months ago, there was this fellow came in. He asked lots of questions, told this story on how he cared for this addict and had thoughts of trying to help her. All I could think to tell him was to run away as fast as you can, but I did not. I allowed him to learn on his own, and several months later he came back, confirmed all I knew would happen to have happened, and he was low on finances, short on home things (because she stole money and things to pay for her addiction), and was emotionally a huge mess. In dealing with an addict, the outcome is always the same.
I guess I should say the same to you. If you like pain and suffering, get involved.
Thank you, I believe I understand your perspective now.
The rock stars arrived home and we had quite a conversation. The guy pulled himself up by his own damn bootstraps through miserable experiences, some similar to yours. As he once again fixed the kitchen window blinds the kid carelessly broke, he explained that he has no patience for any further nonsense. For everyone's safety he and the kid should be in different cities. His lady has talked with the kid for hours, and she agrees that any transformation of his life will have to start within the kid's own free will.
My partner and I are entrusting the future of the kid to his own decisions, along with whatever help his family can provide.
Our involvement is limited to providing some suggestions, as friends of the family, for their consideration.
If the kid would like to talk things over with me as a friend now and then, I'm leaving the door open for him to do so. It would have to be on his own initiative, at a convenient time for me. And with the disclaimer that it's his own responsibility to use or to set aside whatever ideas I offer.
Has the A&E network called yet? This sounds like a great setting for one of their reality shows.
Eddie:
HAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....
... deep breath ...
AAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!!!
Thanks man!
Edited to add:
There may be some interesting songs about all this on the rock star's next album. As Peregrinus mentions it's a story that millions of people can relate to.
My partner and I realized that we should encourage the family to get the kid out of this house ASAP. It's not fair to rent-paying tenants to have to deal with all this secondhand drama. We all have more than enough firsthand drama baggage we brought with us to this place.
(02-20-2010, 05:22 PM)Eddie Wrote: [ -> ]Has the A&E network called yet? This sounds like a great setting for one of their reality shows.
There are literally millions of these dramas going on every moment of every day. The addicts life is pure drama, and I pity any well meaning souls that fall into the darkness of the holes the addicts dig for themselves.
(02-20-2010, 05:47 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]The addicts life is pure drama, and I pity any well meaning souls that fall into the darkness of the holes the addicts dig for themselves.
Your posts, and re-reading Kristy's thread, are inspiring me to rethink my open-door policy of talking more with the kid. I think it might be best for me to simply wish him well finding those who are equipped to offer the help he needs, and which he is able to accept on a day to day basis. AFTER he has established his own foundation and meaning for his life, with proven stability, he's welcome to look me up and tell me about his adventures.
Peregrinus, thank you for sharing wisdom from your painful experiences. I am learning to have more respect for the free will of those who would choose to explore their own self-directed path of separation and darkness. Your persistence at helping me see this may well have saved myself a three-legged race into the swamp.
A final few thoughts then.
An open door policy is alright, but you must set up clearly defined boundaries and the result of crossing a boundary. If it is crossed, the consequence must be met. Failure to carry through with a consequence is a failure to be of any further help to the addict, because the addict will simply use it as a foot in the door to begin manipulation.
Having any sort of relationship with an addict is a huge commitment, and many times it is too much for even family members to take. Many, such as I, had to discontinue the relationship.
My addict is still an addict despite all I did to try and help her. As I explain to people, addiction is the only thing stronger than the motherly instinct, and it is very often stronger than the will to survive. If one understands that, they understand what little chance they have of changing the addict; none.
Yet another perspective. Do you have any habits you would like to change? Ok, change it now. There, wasn't that easy? or not?
A habit begins forming after a repetition of six times doing the same thing, and from then on only becomes stronger. How many times has that addict relied on drugs? How many times will it take to beat it? It takes a lifetime, if you ask one that has cleaned up. They are never over it. The most they can hope to achieve is staying clean, for the urge will always remain. It take a lifelong commitment on their part.
As is said. An addict will walk a hundred miles to get a fix. How far will they walk to stay clean?
Everything Peregrinus says is very wise. And yet... it's not wisdom that is the lesson/goal of this density.
Would it be possible to reach out without being sucked in?
(02-21-2010, 11:50 AM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: [ -> ]Everything Peregrinus says is very wise. And yet... it's not wisdom that is the lesson/goal of this density.
Even though I am a wanderer of the fifth density, the density of light (understanding)?
Seriously, these lessons have been that which I have learned over and over again in this incarnate experience, and is a large part of the lessons I am learning.
(02-21-2010, 11:50 AM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: [ -> ]Would it be possible to reach out without being sucked in?
Is it possible to put ones arm in the lions cage and have it not ripped off? Yes, it is ever possible, but not probable. The voracious appetite of both the lion and the addict take as they need to feed their hunger without concern for the other.
Boundaries are essential. This is the cage separating one from the lion.
Then there is love. If the addict knows they are loved, this is a light at the end of the tunnel for them, but if the other does not set up boundaries, the addict will use this love of another to manipulate. Notice I said
a light, because it is not
the light.
The light must come from within. Love from another can only be a secondary incentive. First they must love the self.
Even though most addicts actions are service to self, I just now have come to the realization that the addict is not necessarily an sts entity. Because they do not love the self, their actions cannot be sts. This only leaves, as was said in a channelling I read, that the addict has a very strong desire to be with the One Creator, and has a larger than typical empty feeling which they try to fill with drug use. It is also my understanding that this is the reason that spirituality becomes so predominant in so many recovered addicts lives. They springboard out of the darkness so very high into the light. Of course, if one helps the addict to never find the bottom by padding their fall (enabling them) every time, the addict will continue on in the sinkhole of indifference.
Forgive my use of Ra quotes. They have more than a single meaning and use in different contexts, and are excellent use of the vibratory sound complex. I believe they were pleased with me when I was writing some parts of this post.
(02-20-2010, 03:58 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]the addict MUST choose this them self. More exactly, they must have both the want and the need. If available, they will steal the energy from one of light, the one offering compassion and love, to allow them to remain in the dark. I've been there; almost had my incarnate life force drained trying to help. By nature, addiction is a deep exploration of the sts side of oneself. It is their choice. Allow them to explore. When/if they decide to choose life, they will do so on their own terms. Until then, all help will be used to further their own agenda.
Peregrinus, I respect your experience, but I'm confused. How can you be sure that this young man hasn't made the choice to choose life? Couldn't the fact that he chose to discuss this, and had an emotional breakthru, possibly be an indication of that first step towards choosing life? How do we decide whether their request for help is sincere or not? Are you saying we should never help addicts, but that they will always heal themselves on their own without any help? Are you saying that helping them is never appropriate?
I agree that there there is truth in what you're saying. I started becoming addicted to snorting speed at age 21...I had a boyfriend who was into it and made all sorts of excuses for his addiction. At first, I used it to be more productive at work...but after almost a year, I realized I was becoming addicted, and I walked away from it, without any help. Later, I walked away from all other drugs as well. So my own experience supports your idea that most addicts who quit do so on their own, when they are ready. However, what about that 1.5% who do get helped via rehab of some sort? And how many others, that are not included in those statistics because they are unknown, who get helped via the support of family and friends? How can we be so sure that this particular person might not actually be ready to receive help?
I agree that if the person is in a downward spiral, to not get sucked into it. Been there done that! But I also don't think we can ever put a 100% absolute on any type of person or situation. Every person is unique and this might just be among that small percentage who do welcome help, or he just might be at the point where a little support might help nudge him in the direction he's already chosen...or even help him make that choice. I disagree that we should automatically assume that ANY addict is beyond our help and that we should just 'run away' from their call for help. I think the real question is not whether we should help them, but what kind of help is appropriate for this particular case. And only our own personal guidance can really give us the answer to that.
(02-20-2010, 02:44 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think he'd last long on the streets.
That does seem a bit harsh.
(02-20-2010, 02:44 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]Here is what I imagine would be best.
Get the dogs to a loving home that can take care of them.
Someone who understands pit bulls! That could be a problem in itself.
(02-20-2010, 02:44 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]Get good medical and mental health care so his brain chemistry is stabilized.
If he is open to that and his family can get it done, sure! But I doubt it is that simple. It's not a simple matter of, "OK do this and this and you will be healed."
(02-20-2010, 02:44 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]Get into a sober living household so he can learn to be responsible for himself. His mother has picked up after him most of his life and I think he doesn't know how to cook. I know he doesn't know how to handle money.
Or, have his own studio apartment or motorhome, and someone who randomly checks in a couple of times a week to see how he's doing.
This sounds very nice...but who would do all that?
I agree with Peregrinus that the issue isn't that he doesn't have options...He must choose to be healed, and then he will have options manifest.
(02-20-2010, 02:44 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]Between sober living and something like a couple of 12 step meetings each week, start a journey of sobriety in community.
Ah, the key word being
sober living. He could choose sober living at any time. That's not something anyone can do
for him. It's not like you can just get him into a 'clean' environment and he will be fine. It's not that simple. If he isn't ready to clean up, he will find a way to get his addiction satisfied. While it's true that being in a negative environment can influence those trying to clean up (ie. their peers pulling them back down), it's also not quite as simple as just getting into a 'clean' household. He's already in a clean household, right?
I'm not sure if the 12-step approach works well with kids. But sure, some sort of support group specifically for teen addicts would be good to suggest.
Here's my suggestion, and it's a simple but very powerful one: Invite him to read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Wonderland-Avenue-...540&sr=1-1
Don't tell him it has any redeeming value. Just tell him it's full of profanity, drugs, sex, and rock-n-roll. I can't even begin to convey how powerful this book is, because it isn't preachy, but takes the reader on a roller coaster ride of decadence and what appears to be the glamor of drugs, but then, just when the reader has developed a trust in the writer, it takes a turn down into the pit of hell, so to speak, so they see for themselves the stark, gritty reality of lives falling apart and death from addiction. And the message is all the more powerful because it isn't some adult authority, but someone who's actually been there. It's a true story.
(02-20-2010, 02:44 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]He liked that I respected his interpretation of his vision. As I see it, the problem is not the particular drugs he took, but his desperate desire to not have feelings or connection to the reality of his life.
Agreed! Any addiction is just masking deeper issues, so the key is always to address those issues...ie treat the cause, not just the symptom.
(02-20-2010, 02:44 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]I think with the massive drug misuse, he's opened the door to powerful negative spiritual forces who want to make him their next trophy. He also might have projected the brainstem's lizard-like survival fears as outside forces. Who knows? Certainly everything about the "mindset and setting" of his bad trips wouldn't meet Leary's criteria for respectful use of entheogenic.
Maybe you already said, but I missed...what types of drugs is he doing? Besides acid and pot? LSD can certainly mess with his head.
Seriously, if I were in your situation, I would buy him
Wonderland Avenue and give it to him as a gift, and tell him to contact me after he's read it.
(02-20-2010, 06:52 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]addiction is the only thing stronger than the motherly instinct, and it is very often stronger than the will to survive.
Very true!
Wonderland Avenue makes this abundantly clear.
(02-20-2010, 06:52 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]If one understands that, they understand what little chance they have of changing the addict; none.
When the addict is still an addict, I would agree with this. But, having kicked a habit myself, I believe that everyone has the potential to change. So it really depends on when you happen to offer them help. If you happen to offer your help at a time when they are choosing to quit the addiction, then your help might very well be received and it might even be of great service to the person. I don't think it's absolutely futile to ever offer help.
(02-20-2010, 06:52 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]Yet another perspective. Do you have any habits you would like to change? Ok, change it now. There, wasn't that easy? or not?
Heh, good point!
(02-20-2010, 06:52 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]A habit begins forming after a repetition of six times doing the same thing
And some drugs, like meth, can be addictive after only once!
(02-20-2010, 06:52 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]It takes a lifetime, if you ask one that has cleaned up. They are never over it. The most they can hope to achieve is staying clean, for the urge will always remain.
I know that's what the 'experts' say but that's not taking into account spiritual transformation.
(02-21-2010, 01:59 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]Peregrinus, I respect your experience, but I'm confused. How can you be sure that this young man hasn't made the choice to choose life? Couldn't the fact that he chose to discuss this, and had an emotional breakthru, possibly be an indication of that first step towards choosing life? How do we decide whether their request for help is sincere or not? Are you saying we should never help addicts, but that they will always heal themselves on their own without any help? Are you saying that helping them is never appropriate?
This showed
the want Monica, but did not show
the need.
The want is powerful, but it is useless without
the need. Even those addicts in treatment that do not have the need think they are doing so better, and they try hard. They even convince them self and others, very easily, that they have beat it. Those that have interventions, are given the choice to clean up or jail, go to jail, or end up in institutions, 99.99% of the time go back to using the first chance they get.
No, one cannot help them. They must, just as the baby must do, take the first steps on their own. It is something one cannot do for the addict, or a baby. Can we live their life? or will they do as they desire to do until that desire changes? Can we change that desire for them if they do not have
the need to change that desire?
(02-21-2010, 01:59 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that there there is truth in what you're saying. I started becoming addicted to snorting speed at age 21...I had a boyfriend who was into it and made all sorts of excuses for his addiction. At first, I used it to be more productive at work...but after almost a year, I realized I was becoming addicted, and I walked away from it, without any help. Later, I walked away from all other drugs as well. So my own experience supports your idea that most addicts who quit do so on their own, when they are ready. However, what about that 1.5% who do get helped via rehab of some sort? And how many others, that are not included in those statistics because they are unknown, who get helped via the support of family and friends? How can we be so sure that this particular person might not actually be ready to receive help?
I agree that if the person is in a downward spiral, to not get sucked into it. Been there done that! But I also don't think we can ever put a 100% absolute on any type of person or situation. Every person is unique and this might just be among that small percentage who do welcome help, or he just might be at the point where a little support might help nudge him in the direction he's already chosen...or even help him make that choice. I disagree that we should automatically assume that ANY addict is beyond our help and that we should just 'run away' from their call for help. I think the real question is not whether we should help them, but what kind of help is appropriate for this particular case. And only our own personal guidance can really give us the answer to that.
To be clear, I am talking about the three big ones, heroin, crack, and meth. All addicts have a DOC (drug of choice), but they will do whatever is available to make do.
Questioner said this young man sat there and smoked a bowl before going to bed while talking to him. Does that sound like someone who has hit their bottom? ...ready for the biggest change and the most difficult commitment he has ever made in his life?
If he is ready, he will fight tooth and nail for it. When the addict has made the choice by gaining
the need, there is no doubt, and I mean
NO DOUBT whatsoever. It takes every fibre of an addicts being to break free of the hold addiction has on them, and to remain clean. The first second one thinks the addict may have fallen off the wagon and might be using... they have been before you even suspected. Addicts have all the excuses, every lie, every trick in the book.. and use every one of them to be able to continue their use.
Until the addict has both
the want and
the need, cries for help are a lure for the unsuspecting do-gooder.
The truth is, you can catch an addict with the needle in their arm or with a pipe in their hand blowing out smoke, and they will tell you that what you saw is now what you think you saw. Mine swore that she wasn't using, swore the surprise drug test would probably lie... even though I knew she was using, found her stash, and the drug test came back positive... it just never ended. Here is a small list of the 1000's of things addicts say. I've heard them all, but there are so many I couldn't possibly list them here...
“I’m really hungry and I only have an eighth a tank of gas. I need to borrow $20 bucks so I can look for a job tomorrow.”
"I thought you loved me..."
"You are not helping right now"
"Can I have $200 to put my stuff in storage before I turn myself in for jail ?"
"I think I should just kill myself"
"If you don't give me the money they are gonna kill me/beat me up"
"If you don't give me the money he gonna come in here and just take whatever he wants and he is a real big man"
"I need $$$ !! You don't understand. This is a life or death situation"
"I am really trying to quit"
"I don't go looking for it. People be giving it to me for free"
"I cant go to rehab, I called and they don't have any beds available"
"Ive been doing this for 15 years so I'm used to it. It doesn't even have an effect on me anymore"
"I can handle it...Its not like I have to do it every day"
"You are not strong enough to handle my addiction"
"I lied because I love you"
“I know eventually I’m going to end up killing someone to get the money if you don’t help me.”
"I didn't want to tell you the truth because I know you wouldn't like it"
"I don't do it that often. "
"I am not hurting you. I am only hurting myself."
"You can drug test me anytime you want."
"I'm just going for milk."
(02-21-2010, 12:19 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]has a larger than typical empty feeling which they try to fill with drug use.
I think that's exactly this kid's situation.
We didn't get a conversation with the landlady yesterday. We might see her today. The other housemates agree that we need to ask the kid's family to get him out of the house. It's not appropriate to ask paying tenants to be ready to talk down someone who self-medicates enough to chat with demons, who wonders if using guns is a good way to gain respect, who abandons pit bulls, etc. Even if he doesn't do anything else destructive, there could also be a time that he's alone at the house, and simply walks out with the door left wide open and the water running. He clearly needs help that is inappropriate to demand or expect of tenants. I think the landlady might not have realized just how bad off her nephew really is. She will soon.
One of the other roommates is friends with a young family that may well be happy to take the dogs. I never knew before that pit bull puppies are such cute little bags of wrinkles. I think the dogs will be fine.
We can offer to suggest some ideas about what's next for the kid. But it's not up to us if those options are welcomed or used. The kid's 18, so unless his family seeks legal guardianship (which they'd probably win, or might already have), it's his choice.
He recently got a six-figure inheritance, so money is not going to be an issue for the kid's next move. His recent episodes have wasted more than enough money for the health care I need and the business I want to start. No shortage of funds there.
Monica, since the kid was kicked out of high school and apparently has some brain damage, I don't know what his reading level is like. I don't know if he'd have any interest in reading a book. I'm reluctant to recommend a book I haven't read, to someone who doesn't show an ability to assess the value of information. From the reviews, I think the author did more self-destructive things than the kid has ever got into. Reading the book might inspire him to try to match that level of excess! I'm sure that you'd offer him the book, but I don't think I will.
Quote:I agree with Peregrinus that the issue isn't that he doesn't have options...He must choose to be healed, and then he will have options manifest.
Absolutely. His troubles bother him enough that he sometimes really
wants to get better. I don't know whether or not this will rise to the level of the primary
need in his life. I hope for his sake it does. But as you keep reminding me (and thank you for the reminder!), that's not up to me.
(02-21-2010, 04:40 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]No, one cannot help them. They must, just as the baby must do, take the first steps on their own. It is something one cannot do for the addict, or a baby. Can we live their life? or will they do as they desire to do until that desire changes? Can we change that desire for them if they do not have the need to change that desire?
I'm not disagreeing with you. As I mentioned, I had a boyfriend that was addicted to speed, and I too began to get addicted for awhile (though I caught it soon enough, before it took over my life, thankfully, but it was enough to give me a taste of what addiction is like). And, I learned a great deal from Danny's story in Wonderland Avenue...enough to know that that list of excuses you listed is very true...and more...even watching loved ones die isn't enough to bring them out of their downward spiral.
My point, though, is: You mentioned that the addict must take those steps on his own, like a baby takes those first steps. How do you identify those steps? How can you know that someone who seems to be having a breakthru, isn't actually taking those baby steps? How can you be so certain? Are you saying that if the crack addict or methhead or junkie still enjoys a glass of wine, or a toke, then he isn't serious about quitting the harder addiction? Are you saying that he must eliminate 100% of even mild substances like weed, to be taken seriously? What about caffeine and sugar? Must those be eliminated also, since they too are addictive?
Peregrinus, I appreciate the intensity of your passion on this issue...it is clear that you have had a very intense experience with an addict, and my own experience was probably mild by comparison. The scariest thing that ever happened to me was the time the drug dealers followed us in a limo! when my ex-boyfriend's brother's chemistry lab blew up. But I never had to deal with the really heavy stuff because I got out before it got that heavy, thankfully. So I definitely do respect your experience! But I question the absoluteness of your advice. I think that, even with some rock-solid evidence that 99% of people will do x or y, ultimately our personal guidance in that particular situation should take precedence over any dogmatic absolute rules. I guess I tend to have an aversion to such strict absolutes. I agree that letting someone take advantage of our compassion isn't cool, and I'm definitely not saying to do that...but at the same time, I like to leave open the possibility that this might just be that exception, that person that's in the 1%, or it just might be the point in time in which the person is at a crossroads, choosing to change their life...it might just be a matter of timing. Your experience was at a time in which your friend wasn't yet ready to quit...she was still in the midst of her addiction...and Questioner's young friend might also be at that point...OR, he might be at a different point. I'm just asking: How can you be so certain which point he is at?
hey questioner, i've been following this thread with interest
i don't have any experience of addiction, dependency perhaps by close friends and a family member, but not the addiction that peregrinus and monica describe
but having just finished reading michael newton's book i felt promoted to chip in a reminder that no matter what this kid is going through, he almost certainly chose to experience this before he incarnated. on his journey he will undoubtably learn much and there's a good chance his learning will be accelerated because of his difficult experiences. you can be a light shining in the darkness which may provide an opportunity for him to reassess and choose to continue on this path or to go another way - and perhaps he will encounter many such lights on his journey before he takes that alternative path away from drug use, if he ever does so.
the synchronicities you describe would certainly suggest that his encounter with you was significant, but you have no responsibility for his life, his circumstances, his choices and the outcome of his choices. it can be very challenging to be that lighthouse and yet to stay unattached to the outcome
(02-21-2010, 04:40 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]To be clear, I am talking about the three big ones, heroin, crack, and meth.
Wouldn't you also include alcohol in that list?
(02-21-2010, 04:40 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]Questioner said this young man sat there and smoked a bowl before going to bed while talking to him. Does that sound like someone who has hit their bottom? ...ready for the biggest change and the most difficult commitment he has ever made in his life?
I don't know. I wasn't there. What if he had had a glass of wine, or a cigarette, or a bowl of ice cream, instead of the weed?
(02-21-2010, 04:40 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]If he is ready, he will fight tooth and nail for it. When the addict has made the choice by gaining the need, there is no doubt, and I mean NO DOUBT whatsoever.
What brings them to that point? We've established that the young man had childhood trauma. What makes addicts suddenly decide to quit? Could it be that they are ready to quit when they've healed that trauma? (at least to some degree)
If so, then wouldn't it be beneficial to assist in the healing process, if possible? In other words, instead of trying to help the kid quit drugs, why not try to help heal the trauma, which might actually work on the root cause of the addiction? It sounded to me like the kid was seeking help with the root cause, not the addiction. The addiction is just a symptom of a deeper issue. Of course they will return to the addiction, if they try to quit before resolving the deeper issue that caused the addiction in the first place!
Tough love isn't going to resolve the deeper issue or heal the trauma. Neither is jail time. So of course they just return to the addiction. The addiction is preferable to the pain they feel from the trauma. Even the tough love or jail time is preferable. They need coping skills. The underlying causes must be addressed.
I submit for your consideration: Those who finally chose to get clean did so because somehow, because of life's catalyst, they were able to get some degree of healing on their deeper issues. Then, making the choice to quit was possible. It was still difficult, but the underlying cause had been neutralized.
(02-21-2010, 05:17 PM)Lorna Wrote: [ -> ]the synchronicities you describe would certainly suggest that his encounter with you was significant, but you have no responsibility for his life, his circumstances, his choices and the outcome of his choices. it can be very challenging to be that lighthouse and yet to stay unattached to the outcome
I agree! My suggestion is to be a lighthouse, but stay unattached, and do not feel responsible for the outcome.
(02-21-2010, 05:14 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]still enjoys a glass of wine, or a toke, then he isn't serious about quitting...
Monica, I have a working definition of addiction. I'm not sure if I came up with it myself. I might have read it somewhere like Dr. Drew's book.
To me, addiction is any time anything destructive or self-destructive is compulsively done. All just to try to escape conscious awareness of pain or unhappiness.
The central point is the anxious flight from presence with one's own life. At its core is a lack of compassion for one's own human suffering. Perhaps also fear that the pain will never end and consume all of one's self.
Any number of destructive actions or materials can be used. By this definition, it doesn't have to be the same thing each time for a person to be an addict. If the kid at the house took a different drug every day and never repeated one for a year, he'd still be an addict. By this definition, my folks were addicted to a cult: their mind-altering substance was misuse of the mind itself. They added clearly unhealthy ideas, so they didn't need to add unhealthy chemicals.
A person can have addictions triggered in some ways, but be completely sober in other ways. For example, my parents were 100% responsible and organized about paying taxes and utility bills. I wouldn't be surprised if P's ex was still somewhat functional enough to make people wonder if his suspicions and accusations were paranoid. In Slash's memoir, I'm amazed at how he could be too far gone to even stand up, but prop him up with a guitar and he could put on a show.
I think you might be saying exactly the same thing here, just in different words. For the kid, the trauma is repeated rejection by those with whom he wanted to share loving care and his search for a greater spiritual truth.
Lorna, thank you. I'm not familiar with Michael Newton's book. But I feel your analogy is right on. It might be that the kid crashes into the rocks now Later in life, he uses some other lighthouse as his guide to a safe harbor.
When the kid and I wrapped up our conversation, he said he was going to his room to toke up. I wasn't present while he did that.
questioner - it's a book called destiny of souls, life between lives - a lot about pre incarnative choices
it's giving me a lot to think about at the moment - there was a thread dangling about the book awhile back, but i'm going to digest before posting more
(02-21-2010, 05:24 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2010, 04:40 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]To be clear, I am talking about the three big ones, heroin, crack, and meth.
Wouldn't you also include alcohol in that list?
Yes indeed.
(02-21-2010, 05:24 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2010, 04:40 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]Questioner said this young man sat there and smoked a bowl before going to bed while talking to him. Does that sound like someone who has hit their bottom? ...ready for the biggest change and the most difficult commitment he has ever made in his life?
I don't know. I wasn't there. What if he had had a glass of wine, or a cigarette, or a bowl of ice cream, instead of the weed?
I'm just saying, talking about quitting drugs while doing drugs is a fairly clear indicator of a lack of want and need.
(02-21-2010, 05:24 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2010, 04:40 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]If he is ready, he will fight tooth and nail for it. When the addict has made the choice by gaining the need, there is no doubt, and I mean NO DOUBT whatsoever.
(02-21-2010, 05:24 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]What brings them to that point? We've established that the young man had childhood trauma. What makes addicts suddenly decide to quit? Could it be that they are ready to quit when they've healed that trauma? (at least to some degree)
It has varying names. Hitting bottom, rock bottom... it has to be something devastating to them, where they realize it is life and death. It isn't from desire alone. It has to be traumatic.
(02-21-2010, 05:24 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]If so, then wouldn't it be beneficial to assist in the healing process, if possible? In other words, instead of trying to help the kid quit drugs, why not try to help heal the trauma, which might actually work on the root cause of the addiction? It sounded to me like the kid was seeking help with the root cause, not the addiction. The addiction is just a symptom of a deeper issue. Of course they will return to the addiction, if they try to quit before resolving the deeper issue that caused the addiction in the first place!
In order to heal the original problem/trauma, the person must be clean. Of course, this is a chicken/egg scenario, but there isn't a shrink/etc that would try to help an addict when still in active addiction. It just can't be done.
(02-21-2010, 05:24 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]Tough love isn't going to resolve the deeper issue or heal the trauma. Neither is jail time. So of course they just return to the addiction. The addiction is preferable to the pain they feel from the trauma. Even the tough love or jail time is preferable. They need coping skills. The underlying causes must be addressed.
Again, which they acquire in becoming drug free. How does an addict learn to cope when high? Drunk?
(02-21-2010, 05:24 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: [ -> ]I submit for your consideration: Those who finally chose to get clean did so because somehow, because of life's catalyst, they were able to get some degree of healing on their deeper issues. Then, making the choice to quit was possible. It was still difficult, but the underlying cause had been neutralized.
I can only speak of experience when it comes to the several addicts/alcoholics in my life, and in this instance, my addict ex-spouse. My addict cleaned up several times, for months at a time even, but the underlying issues of Borderline Personality Disorder, Sociopathy, and Bulimia still remained. For her, a one year mental health therapy was/is the only treatment, and if one expects an addict to show up for even one session... she always said she was going to the therapy. She was accepted, she wanted to go, but when it came the time for each course, which came and went, she had an excuse she couldn't, even when clean. She never even tried to make the three week prerequisite course, even though it was so very important to her...
These things I learned the very hard way, and I don't think anyone who has not gone through them can understand. I had post traumatic stress disorder after leaving the relationship... it is simply devastating what an addict can do to not only them self, but to others around them.
Indeed this is a life changing catalyst, but it is one they chose pre-incarnation. This is their major lesson. If one chooses to become involved, it then becomes a major lesson for you too. It sure became mine.
(02-21-2010, 05:50 PM)Questioner Wrote: [ -> ]To me, addiction is any time anything destructive or self-destructive is compulsively done. All just to try to escape conscious awareness of pain or unhappiness.
The central point is the anxious flight from presence with one's own life. At its core is a lack of compassion for one's own human suffering. Perhaps also fear that the pain will never end and consume all of one's self.
Any number of destructive actions or materials can be used. By this definition, it doesn't have to be the same thing each time for a person to be an addict. If the kid at the house took a different drug every day and never repeated one for a year, he'd still be an addict. By this definition, my folks were addicted to a cult: their mind-altering substance was misuse of the mind itself. They added clearly unhealthy ideas, so they didn't need to add unhealthy chemicals.
I agree with this definition. Where do we draw the line? To a lesser degree, aren't we all addicts to some degree? Haven't we all, on occasion, used a candy bar, a glass of wine, or a bowl of ice cream as comfort food? Sugar and caffeine are both highly addictive substances, but they aren't considered drugs in our society because they're relatively benign.
The only difference is the intensity. Drugs like heroin completely suppress life's catalyst, for a few hours of Nirvana. That's what it is, really...a suppression of catalyst. But then, other catalyst takes its place...a different kind of catalyst...the catalyst of dealing with the addiction itself, as well as having to deal with well-meaning loved ones, possibly jail or even death due to OD...etc.
It's still all catalyst and I don't think we really have the right to say that the person is running away from their problems...they just have new, different problems. They're making choices we don't agree with...but how are their choices any better or worse than anyone else's?
I guess the part I'm having trouble with is the idea of withholding service/love to anyone based on any sort of judgement of their life choices.
I contend that the real issue isn't whether the other-self is able to utilize our service or not...
the real issue is whether we have enough wisdom to be of service without getting sucked into their downward spiral.
(02-21-2010, 06:16 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]I'm just saying, talking about quitting drugs while doing drugs is a fairly clear indicator of a lack of want and need.
Pot is considered a drug only because of political and economic propaganda. It's not even physically addictive at all, so I wouldn't classify it the same as meth or heroin. It's not even remotely in the same league!
Cigarettes, on the other hand, are quite addictive, but they're legal drugs. If he had lit up a cig instead of a j, would the reaction have been the same?
Cigs aren't in the same league either, because, even though they ultimately cause a slow, painful death, they aren't mind-altering so offer only a partial escape, at best.
The question is: By whose criteria do we get to judge whether someone is ready to change their life? How can we be sure we aren't injecting our own biases into the assessment? Someone whose dad died of lung cancer might have an intense reaction to cigarettes...But I really have never heard of anyone having experienced any intense trauma because of weed, so I contend that classification of weed along with meth/heroin/alcohol/crack is likely based on cultural conditioning, rather than its actual attributes.
I just don't see the kid lighting up a bowl as being relevant to whether he quits meth or not. What if he had had a beer instead of a bowl?
I'm not trying to be difficult...just trying to make a point about how we judge things.
Lorna, I remember about the book now. Never got around to reading that one.
Peregrinus, as I continue my story in the other thread, I look forward to comparing our discoveries about how borderline, psychopathic and post-traumatic stress distortions affect the offering and receiving of love in this 3D world.
Another roommate just gave me the update here.
The aunts who are nurses out of state will take care of the kid, making sure he gets medical diagnosis & treatment. His stuff will be parked here for now. There's discussion of his moving back here after he's been through rehab. But the roommate thinks that once they learn how much he's out of touch with mainstream reality, they're going to have him live where they can keep a close eye on him. The kid should be on the way to this new situation tomorrow.
I'd be happy to see this thread continue for discussion of addiction, premature & unwise attempts to instant enlightenment, and all the other subjects that have come up. In any event, I'll post back with an update when there is one.
(02-21-2010, 06:16 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]It has varying names. Hitting bottom, rock bottom... it has to be something devastating to them, where they realize it is life and death. It isn't from desire alone. It has to be traumatic.
OK...so we've established that some childhood trauma predisposed this kid to becoming addicted in the first place...now you say that the only way to kick the addiction is to suffer a new trauma?
Respectfully, I don't agree with this. This does not allow for any possibility of spiritual transformation via forgiveness, which is the hallmark of the Law of One.
(02-21-2010, 06:16 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]In order to heal the original problem/trauma, the person must be clean. Of course, this is a chicken/egg scenario, but there isn't a shrink/etc that would try to help an addict when still in active addiction. It just can't be done.
Again, I respectfully disagree with this, because I am living proof. I quit all my addictions because of spiritual transformation. (Granted, I was never a junkie or a methhead, so mine were mild by comparison, but I struggled with them nonetheless.) And I know others who did the same. When the spiritual/emotional issues are healed, one no longer needs the addiction, and it falls by the wayside naturally.
I would agree that if a therapist is trying to force someone to heal on demand, without getting to the root issue, without the spiritual component, then he is spinning his wheels. In that case, the person gets clean, but, as you said, they're never really free of it, and it's a lifelong battle. On the other hand, if they get clean because they had a spiritual transformation, then they ARE free of it!
(02-21-2010, 06:16 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]Again, which they acquire in becoming drug free. How does an addict learn to cope when high? Drunk?
Just because someone is high or even drunk doesn't mean they can't have spiritual insights. Sometimes powerful epiphanies occur when under the influence of some drug. I'm certainly not advocating using drugs as a crutch in that way, but it does happen. The mind doesn't quit working just because the doors of perception are flung open.
(02-21-2010, 06:16 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]I can only speak of experience when it comes to the several addicts/alcoholics in my life
That is precisely my point! Your insights based on your own experience are entirely valid. But, I don't think they apply to every person or every situation. The issue I have is with the absolutes.
(02-21-2010, 06:16 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]These things I learned the very hard way, and I don't think anyone who has not gone through them can understand. I had post traumatic stress disorder after leaving the relationship... it is simply devastating what an addict can do to not only them self, but to others around them.
I'm sorry to hear of what you went thru! Having experienced only a small taste of what you experienced, I can only imagine how difficult that must have been!
(02-21-2010, 06:16 PM)Peregrinus Wrote: [ -> ]Indeed this is a life changing catalyst, but it is one they chose pre-incarnation. This is their major lesson. If one chooses to become involved, it then becomes a major lesson for you too. It sure became mine.
I agree! As I said, the only point I disagree on is whether your particular experience necessarily applies to all other situations dealing with addicts. They may or may not be in the same stage as your ex...they may or may not have the same pre-incarnational programming...any number of factors could be different.
My father went to his grave drinking. I've seen two friends go to the grave from cocaine, one disappear from his debt, and two who lost their nose to cocaine, only to turn to crack. I understand and accept that I don't know everything, and I am sure there are exceptions to the rule, but there aren't many. I have yet to see an exception, seeing only the rule.
I was told by police, ambulance and many other people to get away from my addict ex-spouse and to stay as far away as I possibly could, because they had never seen good come of it, never seen anyone beat it and stay clean. I stayed and tried, to no avail, and it almost destroyed me. It was, however, the dark I needed to catapult me into the light to be sure, so for me this last relationship was a huge lesson.
Yes there are lessons, but second guessing what each addicts is, and then trying to control the situation to make them better, I would suggest is negatively polarizing to the self, and is not going to help unless the addict has hit their bottom. Ask any recovered addict what changed their life. It was trauma. That, I guarantee, is a rule.