Does anyone else find the fact that there should exist in this reality an Infinite Creator really ... surprising, perhaps, is the right word, if not downright startling? How does it come to pass that in a void a singular Infinite conscious being comes into existence - or exists eternally without beginning or end?
Let me clarify that I am not asking whether or not there is an Infinite Creator - I am almost completely certain that it is so. Rather, trying to wrap my mind around how it happened to come to pass.
I know that this is not a new question, and I am simply substituting "infinite creator" for the traditional God; and I am also aware that I am trying to grasp the origin of infinite consciousness with the mind of a monkey - nonetheless, it seems like there may be a whole other level of reality that the Infinite Creator exists within, perhaps with its own rules, and we, having our existence within its mind, cannot ever reach outside to encounter it - and perhaps that is why, as Ra said, "everything begins and ends in mystery."
You could argue that the Infinite Creator is infinite and therefore nothing can exist outside it (otherwise it would not be infinite), but it seems to me that 1) it is not infinite in every respect - otherwise it could not learn and discover new things; 2) its infinity may perhaps be understood as infinity of being, i.e., consciousness or intelligent energy - but that would not necessary preclude the existence of other similar beings possessing an infinity of consciousness, enabling each to imagine/create an infinite creation without limit or end. By way of analogy, if I can use an infinite number of integers and you can also, aren't we each in possession of an infinity of integers?
On the other hand, suggesting that the One Infinite Creator is actually perhaps One of Many Infinite Creators may simply be adding yet another level to a fractal reality -- another way of saying "the world rests on the back of a giant elephant, and it's giant elephants all the way down" -- without coming any closer to answering the Ultimate Question, which is why and how any consciousness should exist at all.
Here's a poem, potentially older than 5000 years, that resonates very strongly with this question for me:
Nasadiya: The Creation Hymn of Rig Veda
There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?
There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.
Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.
Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.
Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whence this creation has arisen
- perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not -
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know.
If the One Creator exists, it is the ultimate hedonistic being. It seeks pleasure through our trials.
I exist. That's the only evidence I need of infinity. If nothing ever existed before me, I wouldn't be here. Infinity doesn't impress me anymore especially considering how amazing I am.
Since I am the One Creator, as are you all, it must experience our difficulties. It must have an infinite understanding of what we go through. And maybe it sympathizes with us.
(08-24-2014, 02:43 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]Does anyone else find the fact that there should exist in this reality an Infinite Creator really ... surprising, perhaps, is the right word, if not downright startling? How does it come to pass that in a void a singular Infinite conscious being comes into existence - or exists eternally without beginning or end?
At one time I felt that way, that it seemed so fantastical and impossible.
But nowadays, I find the notion of "nothingness" even more improbable -- the idea that there was nothing and then there was something. I've since come to understand that "limitation" or "lack" or "absence" is the only thing that ever had a beginning, because all arises from, and dissolves back into infinity which always has, and always will exist.
(08-24-2014, 02:43 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]Let me clarify that I am not asking whether or not there is an Infinite Creator - I am almost completely certain that it is so. Rather, trying to wrap my mind around how it happened to come to pass.
I know that this is not a new question, and I am simply substituting "infinite creator" for the traditional God; and I am also aware that I am trying to grasp the origin of infinite consciousness with the mind of a monkey - nonetheless, it seems like there may be a whole other level of reality that the Infinite Creator exists within, perhaps with its own rules, and we, having our existence within its mind, cannot ever reach outside to encounter it - and perhaps that is why, as Ra said, "everything begins and ends in mystery."
You could argue that the Infinite Creator is infinite and therefore nothing can exist outside it (otherwise it would not be infinite), but it seems to me that 1) it is not infinite in every respect - otherwise it could not learn and discover new things;
I would submit to you that it is
precisely because it is infinite in every respect, that it learns and discovers new things. Infinity explores
everything. It knows all things, even what it is like to not know all things. Knowing
that gives rise to the experience of reality we are experiencing
right now, difficult as they may be to believe. The infinite scope of infinite consciousness knowing what it is like to not know everything, and thus, have the capacity to
learn, is
no different than our experience.
It's infinite understanding *IS* reality.
(08-24-2014, 02:43 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]2) its infinity may perhaps be understood as infinity of being, i.e., consciousness or intelligent energy - but that would not necessary preclude the existence of other similar beings possessing an infinity of consciousness, enabling each to imagine/create an infinite creation without limit or end. By way of analogy, if I can use an infinite number of integers and you can also, aren't we each in possession of an infinity of integers?
The continuum of consciousness is absolutely infinite in all directions, imaginable by us (human beings) and those pathways of energy expression that are too abstract for us to wrap our human minds around. Existence is endless. The great hallmark of an infinite creator is variety.
(08-24-2014, 02:43 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]On the other hand, suggesting that the One Infinite Creator is actually perhaps One of Many Infinite Creators may simply be adding yet another level to a fractal reality -- another way of saying "the world rests on the back of a giant elephant, and it's giant elephants all the way down" -- without coming any closer to answering the Ultimate Question, which is why and how any consciousness should exist at all.
It's one of those questions that cannot be adequately resolved with mind, but only be understood by resting in the spirit or heart.
Nothingness, the idea that there could be
lack, was always the lie, the artificially contrived distortion that anything other than absolute everythingness (infinity) could exist, and has always existed beyond all concepts of space and all concepts of time.
Even the very idea of nothingness existing is immediately a logical fallacy. If nothing exists, then it is something, and certainly not nothing. Having a word for a hypothetical state of infinite lack makes it seems like an thing, an independently existing object, that we may reference and use in our explanations of reality. But, it is a chimera, a false mirage, there has ever only been infinity, and we are simply exploring some of the outer orbits of that infinite knowing, where the knowing of distortion creates an illusory fracturing of consciousness from the infinite whole.
As Ra says, "The dissolution into nothingness is the dissolution into unity, for there is no nothingness."
(08-24-2014, 02:43 PM)Stranger Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a poem, potentially older than 5000 years, that resonates very strongly with this question for me:
Nasadiya: The Creation Hymn of Rig Veda
There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?
There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.
Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.
Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.
Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whence this creation has arisen
- perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not -
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know.
It is a nice poem.
I think Infinity is the Creator's veil and there is an incomprehensible mystery behind it whereby "Infinity Beings" are 'grown'. I do not know what, I do not think it is possible to know yet, but there is something beyond Infinity. I know it doesn't really make any possible sense, but then, I don't think it needs to.
This really is one of those quintessential questions posed by atheists/anti theists and such a question will never cease to amaze, befuddle, and downright frustrate anyone with a logical mind. I've comes to realize questions like this are actually counterintuitive because such an answer can never be had so why wonder in the first place. It's one of the milestones I have achieved with my ever so logical mind. Simply accepting that there are questions that I will never know the answer to has been quite the achievement in my life.
I don't believe that we will never know the answers to some of our questions. Maybe not in this life, but certainly in eternity or infinity we can find answers.
Maybe when we're on the other side of the veil we won't any longer have any questions.
We don't need answers. What we have right now for the remaining decades of our lives can suffice. Our lives can be complete with or without cosmological trivia.
We could also ask the question of why wouldn't it come into being? It seems infinity gets tired only to wake again, just as we do..and we are the infinite.
"However, it has been impressed upon us by our own teachers that there is a mystery-clad unity of creation in which all consciousness periodically coalesces and again begins. Thus we can only say we assume an infinite progression though we understand it to be cyclical in nature and, as we have said, clad in mystery."
I sometimes wonder if all this stuff is nonsense, and there really is a conscious architect like in the Matrix, where we simply design a reality and then immerse ourselves in it. Then when this life ends it's like "Well that was fun, what next?" No process, no nothing, no intense pain or suffering..just the creator having fun.
I don't understand. There is no true intense pain or suffering. It's all fun in the end?
(08-24-2014, 09:36 PM)Icaro Wrote: [ -> ]We could also ask the question of why wouldn't it come into being? It seems infinity gets tired only to wake again, just as we do..and we are the infinite.
"However, it has been impressed upon us by our own teachers that there is a mystery-clad unity of creation in which all consciousness periodically coalesces and again begins. Thus we can only say we assume an infinite progression though we understand it to be cyclical in nature and, as we have said, clad in mystery."
I sometimes wonder if all this stuff is nonsense, and there really is a conscious architect like in the Matrix, where we simply design a reality and then immerse ourselves in it. Then when this life ends it's like "Well that was fun, what next?" No process, no nothing, no intense pain or suffering..just the creator having fun.
That reminded me of when one of my best friends called me after watching the original Matrix on acid. As he was telling me how mind blowing it was, I heard a friend of ours start screaming in the background. He kept screaming "NOTHING IS REAL!! THERE IS NO REALITY!!!" I just laughed at off then but now, now I'm left wondering.
Adonai - Sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant is that I sometimes wonder if all the horrible things that happen are actually real. I've experienced mental and emotional pain, but nothing unbearable physically. So how do I know it exists? In other words, why would the creator allow itself to experience excruciating pain? Infinite possibility aside, it just seems really stupid.
Jeremy - I guess we'll find out someday! lol I'm looking forward to Jupiter Ascending..the Wachowski duo's new movie!
I can only say without the pain in the animal bodies we've used and currently use, we wouldn't have the necessary unconsciousness to form the soul. We have repressed parts of ourselves that form our desires going back many centuries of lives. Without the "pain", we just wouldn't be here. With that said... it's all a part of the veiling that I believe we've desired.