(11-14-2011, 02:02 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: I had thought about it, and you are more right than I would initially accept. But I think there are far more "aware" meat eaters than might be given credit for. There are many many people, like my customer base, who go to great lengths to learn about the process of meat production and what it means for themselves and the animal, practically and spiritually. As I said a while ago in this thread, I have a few (the number has increased) customers who used to be vegetarian because of the state of the meat industry, and now eat meat because they realize there are way to be involved with your food to a point where you can visit the farm that it comes from and ensure that you agree with the practices used raising the animals. This demographic is growing rather rapidly and as people learn about the state of the meat industry they are discovering that it doesn't have to be that way. Inhumane treatment of animals doesn't have to be the only option for meat.

However, there are some meat eaters in strong denial. For example, at my market, I have pictures of chickens on the front of my tent to show people how free and natural they are allowed to behave (our chickens are uncontained and can do absolutely whatever they want). A man passed by with his wife and said "Do you want to get some chicken?" She looked horrified and said "God no! I can't buy a chicken when I see it alive! That's horrible!"

This woman represents a very large demographic as well. People are in denial that the meat they eat was once a living being. What's even worse is the idea that she didn't want to know where her food came from...meaning she will most likely buy her meat from a big industry meat producer, where chickens are stuffed in a cage or a room, never see the sun or touch grass or anything natural at all.

To go even further, I might even say people that eat meat and aren't willing to kill the animal themselves are in denial. When vegetarians say "if everyone had to kill their own meat, there would be many more vegetarians," this is a true statement. There are different layers of denial for meat consumers. But I would ask, please don't ignore the consumers who aren't behind that veil of denial. They are fully aware of what they are doing and have much love and appreciation for what their food is and where it comes from, and try their hardest to be involved in the process.

That all being said, I would also say there are a number of vegetarians either grossly uninformed or in denial about the process that their food goes through as well. Is buying conventionally grown vegetables from the grocery store any more humane for animals or the environment than buying meat? The state of industrial food production, not just meat, is appalling. Some people think buying "organic" helps alleviate this problem, but it hardly does. If you buy organic produce from the grocery store, this act is supporting businesses which care little about the environment and do great harm to ecosystems, which would include all types of animals. There might be a very small percentage of food in a grocery store which is sustainably grown, but if you don't know exactly the source of your food, how can you know?

Also, while I know many vegetarians are aware of the state of the soy industry and the harm it does to the environment and agriculture in general, there are a great many who don't. GMO soy alone, which is nearly 99% of all soy production, is horrendous. These soy fields are carpeted with herbicide and pesticide which completely eliminate any traces of an ecosystem (including the thousands of being above ground as well as the trillions, yes TRILLIONS of beings bellow ground). There is also a horrendous amount of deforestation going on in South America to help meet a demand for soy. I would say that as many suffer and die because of these practices as do in the big meat industry.

Leaving aside soy, Big Produce in general treats the plants that they grow as separate from nature. They eliminate ecosystems and either carpet fields with chemicals, synthetic (convention) or not (organic). Many times, the produce you buy at the grocery store comes from all over the world. Think of the environmental damage that is done transporting food here? Much of it even comes from countries which are on the verge of famine and have food strikes. How awful is that? The laborers are often treated close to slave labor.

I feel that eliminating meat from one's diet is not enough to ensure the elimination of suffering of animals (and the Earth). Buying food local and making sure the producer is sustainable is the only way to be involved with your food intimately enough to know that it is responsibly produced with no suffering. This means giving up much of what we have become accustomed to. Learning to cook seasonally and giving up things which don't grow locally can be hard. No fruit in the winter, no tomatoes in the off-season...it requires much flexibility, but if you are buying conventionally grown (whether organic or not) produce from around the world, just think of the damage being done to ecosystems (which include animals) and the Earth in general.

(11-14-2011, 03:03 PM)Pickle Wrote: I felt the push to move away from wooden houses a couple years ago. Now I am fully interested in using earth and stone for building. I really do not like the idea of mass harvesting of wood either.

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(11-14-2011, 02:50 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: If I ever build a house, I'd probably opt for rocks rather than wood. But then I will probably be told that the rocks are beings too.

I think you need to change the vibrations of the rock to affect it. Heating and melting, encasing in cement, that kind of thing.

Crushing it tends to change it in the same sort of way you grow cuttings.

(11-14-2011, 03:14 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: Austin, as always, I am impressed by the depth of your thought and caring. (and even more so, now that I know how young you are.) Well said!

I recently gave up conventional corn and buy only blue or purple corn, after learning about how corrupted the corn is now. The deeper we dig, the deeper the rabbit hole goes.

This planet is a tough place to live in. It's all very complex and there are no easy answers. The first step is to increase awareness. I agree completely with all you said. We each have to do what we can to increase awareness. As I have mentioned to you before, I have great respect for how you run your farm. I can see that you are providing a very important service, that is helping to educate people.

(11-14-2011, 02:43 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 02:23 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: Austin, I absolutely do not buy into the theory that if I buy a product in a store then I am contributing to an all encompassing practicalities of its origination. I don't even want to discuss the topic, because I KNOW it will be a heated one. It's not right to do in this thread, at the least.

If you don't wish to discuss it, it is fine, but it escapes me that you cannot see how supporting a system perpetuates its continuation.

(11-14-2011, 03:12 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: The point about trees was that, according to Ra, members of the vegetable kingdom can become enspirited (not just trees). You had said that they couldn't.

(11-14-2011, 03:12 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: You look at the eating of meat from a specific point of view. In particular, you equate eating meat with slaughterhouses and industrial agriculture. Austin and I and others have tried to point out that there are other models out there.

(11-14-2011, 03:12 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: In my experience, raising and eating animal products, including meat, can be a deeply healing activity for the individual, the community, the environment, and the planet.

(11-14-2011, 03:12 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: And eating industrial vegetables, as Austin also pointed out, is not necessarily good for the vegetables, the humans, or the environment.

(11-14-2011, 03:12 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: I think it's indicative of a flaw, to some extent, in your thought process that you think you know better than our Logos how second-density should be structured.

(11-14-2011, 03:12 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: As I've pointed out, each offers itself to each. That can be a deeply spiritual realization, if you will let it. Consider the Native Americans, who Ra said were spiritually advanced. They ate meat (and still do), but they did so with honor and reverence for the sacrifice the animal was making.

(11-14-2011, 03:12 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: In my opinion, it's about consciousness, not about picking and choosing the correct set of actions. Yes, we should know how our food is raised and how it is harvested. Yes, we should do as much of it ourselves as we can. Those are areas where we can easily agree, and I think it might make more sense to focus on agreements rather than disagreements.

But the idea that eating blue-green algae out of a can is more evolved than eating a cow, chicken, goat, or pig one has raised oneself, or a deer one has shot oneself, is not a very compelling claim, in my opinion.

(11-14-2011, 03:29 PM)Oceania Wrote: i wouldn't kill the chicken. just cuz 99% does stuff doesn't make it right.

(11-14-2011, 03:22 PM)3DMonkey Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 02:43 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 02:23 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: Austin, I absolutely do not buy into the theory that if I buy a product in a store then I am contributing to an all encompassing practicalities of its origination. I don't even want to discuss the topic, because I KNOW it will be a heated one. It's not right to do in this thread, at the least.

If you don't wish to discuss it, it is fine, but it escapes me that you cannot see how supporting a system perpetuates its continuation.

I'll try to answer you and Diana with this post. (I'm gonna pull a "unity100" and say that we shouldn't go further down the road with it).

To me...

The only relevance in life is direct personal relationships. I think Ra explicitly agrees.

If this is true (and it is to me), then the practices of a Free Will 3D entity at a slaughter house is entirely between that person and who/whatever he/she has a direct personal relationship with. If it were me at the slaughter house, then you would see "me" act as I would choose to act. The worker has his choice as well. My purchase does not affect his/her decision at his/her personal relationship level. Put me in a direct personal relationship with that worker, and that worker and I will create a bond, good bad or indifferent. That is where spiritual evolution is born.

@Diana, if I go down the road of "every action I take affects the entire chain of events leading up to it" then I am personally responsible for every single act ever known to this planet. I'm not, and neither are you.

You see, the way I see it, the "perpetuators" are the ones that want to label, condemn, shift the power. Everyone thinks their own way is the right way, and people who want to fight.... well they are perpetuating fighting on the planet. The end to all of it is to accept. It is the only true way. (not that I do it, or that I'm optimistic it will ever happen.) If Gaia is so important, let Gaia handle it.

(11-14-2011, 03:35 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 03:12 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: The point about trees was that, according to Ra, members of the vegetable kingdom can become enspirited (not just trees). You had said that they couldn't.

Ra said trees, and even locations. My read of that is that, this happens in exceptional conditions, like the grandfather oak being loved by generations of children. That doesn't mean that every tree is individuated.

(11-14-2011, 03:38 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: I find the most significant part of the quote about trees to be "through the love it receives and gives in relationship to a third-density entity which is in relationship to it"

It is our perception, our "THOUGHT", that Ra is relaying here.

(11-14-2011, 03:43 PM)Diana Wrote: This is an awesome discussion.

(11-14-2011, 03:36 PM)Diana Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 03:22 PM)3DMonkey Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 02:43 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 02:23 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: Austin, I absolutely do not buy into the theory that if I buy a product in a store then I am contributing to an all encompassing practicalities of its origination. I don't even want to discuss the topic, because I KNOW it will be a heated one. It's not right to do in this thread, at the least.

If you don't wish to discuss it, it is fine, but it escapes me that you cannot see how supporting a system perpetuates its continuation.

I'll try to answer you and Diana with this post. (I'm gonna pull a "unity100" and say that we shouldn't go further down the road with it).

To me...

The only relevance in life is direct personal relationships. I think Ra explicitly agrees.

If this is true (and it is to me), then the practices of a Free Will 3D entity at a slaughter house is entirely between that person and who/whatever he/she has a direct personal relationship with. If it were me at the slaughter house, then you would see "me" act as I would choose to act. The worker has his choice as well. My purchase does not affect his/her decision at his/her personal relationship level. Put me in a direct personal relationship with that worker, and that worker and I will create a bond, good bad or indifferent. That is where spiritual evolution is born.

@Diana, if I go down the road of "every action I take affects the entire chain of events leading up to it" then I am personally responsible for every single act ever known to this planet. I'm not, and neither are you.

You see, the way I see it, the "perpetuators" are the ones that want to label, condemn, shift the power. Everyone thinks their own way is the right way, and people who want to fight.... well they are perpetuating fighting on the planet. The end to all of it is to accept. It is the only true way. (not that I do it, or that I'm optimistic it will ever happen.) If Gaia is so important, let Gaia handle it.

I actually don't think my way is the "right" way, nor do I think anybody's way is the "right" way, including Ra. We all have "working theories," and we are all evolving, including Ra. Your theories are as valid as mine, mine as valid as yours, and ours are as valid as Ra's. If this opinion doesn't fit with this site, I will humbly bow out.

If you purchase a product (meat, Chinese plastic toys), you are part of the market that demands that commodity, that sustains its production. No demand; no supply. So some responsibility must go to the consumer.

I take your point about Gaia, and Gaia dealing with Gaia's issues. Yet, we are a part of the creation of some of those issues, so are we not culpable?

(11-14-2011, 03:39 PM)Oceania Wrote: no Monkey. i don't have to prove anything.

(11-14-2011, 03:45 PM)Pickle Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 03:38 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: I find the most significant part of the quote about trees to be "through the love it receives and gives in relationship to a third-density entity which is in relationship to it"

It is our perception, our "THOUGHT", that Ra is relaying here.

An extended amount of time with interaction. "Man I love this table!"

Possibly interacted with for generations. Like enspiriting a rock. Not sure how it applies in the same way though.


hmmm..........
"Man this burger tastes awesome!"
Five minutes maybe?
An animal like savage in the butcher shop, then the guy that pulls it out of the freezer and spits on it while frying it. Then your 5 minutes of love.

Unless you hand form your burgers at home, then you can skip the spitting teenagers.

Sorry friend, I was laughing while typing this, don't take it seriously.

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(11-14-2011, 03:43 PM)Diana Wrote: This is an awesome discussion.

The only ones awesome for me are the ones that make my eyes water.
From laughter.

(11-14-2011, 03:35 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: Ra said trees, and even locations.

(11-14-2011, 03:35 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: You mentioned everyone except the animal!

(11-14-2011, 03:35 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: I agree with that. But what does that have to do with killing animals?

(11-14-2011, 03:35 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: The Native Americans had to kill animals to survive.

(11-14-2011, 03:35 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: The choice between imposing my will over an obviously individuated animal, who makes his choice clear that he doesn't want to be killed, by runnig away from me, vs. harvesting a primitive lifeform out of a pristine eco-system capable of feeding the planet? You see no difference between those?

(11-14-2011, 03:50 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: Monkey, thank you for continuing in this discussion. It has offered insight I would not have considered.

(11-14-2011, 03:51 PM)Oceania Wrote: i have no appetite for meat anymore. i miss chicken though. but i couldn't kill one myself. it was eashy to buy it from a store which is why i was a meat eater. no way would i have been if i had had to kill animals. i have cried over flies that died. a fly got burned on a lamp when i was a kid, and i felt really bad. when i was a kid i asked my mom to kill a fly because i was afraid, i didn't realize she would actually kill it, i just panicked. and she did being a mom, and then i felt bad and cried. cuz it died because of me. i have killed bugs, mosquitos which i no longer kill. and i've killed other bugs that threatened my sanity, now i regret my actions. all the living beings i've killed i regret a lot. i couldn't imagine killing a fucking chicken, Monkey. maybe hunger makes people do crazy things and i certainly would kill a chicken to feed my Cat because he's my son and i love him, but i don't believe i would kill a chicken to feed myself.

(11-14-2011, 04:01 PM)Pickle Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 03:51 PM)Oceania Wrote: i have no appetite for meat anymore. i miss chicken though. but i couldn't kill one myself. it was eashy to buy it from a store which is why i was a meat eater. no way would i have been if i had had to kill animals. i have cried over flies that died. a fly got burned on a lamp when i was a kid, and i felt really bad. when i was a kid i asked my mom to kill a fly because i was afraid, i didn't realize she would actually kill it, i just panicked. and she did being a mom, and then i felt bad and cried. cuz it died because of me. i have killed bugs, mosquitos which i no longer kill. and i've killed other bugs that threatened my sanity, now i regret my actions. all the living beings i've killed i regret a lot. i couldn't imagine killing a fucking chicken, Monkey. maybe hunger makes people do crazy things and i certainly would kill a chicken to feed my Cat because he's my son and i love him, but i don't believe i would kill a chicken to feed myself.

I think we should petition monkey to do an Ozzy Ozbourne imitation on video, with a chicken instead of a bat.

(11-14-2011, 03:53 PM)Diana Wrote: The only ones awesome for me are the ones that make my eyes water.
From laughter.

Pickle, I admire your attitude .

(11-14-2011, 04:10 PM)Pickle Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 03:53 PM)Diana Wrote: The only ones awesome for me are the ones that make my eyes water.
From laughter.

Pickle, I admire your attitude .

You would not believe the amount of trouble one gets into with this attitude.

When I was a teenager my line was "life is a joke". Then I grew up.

Now I have gotten to where "holy crap life really is a joke!" but I still need to take it seriously.

What is funny is how many take it too seriously.

(11-14-2011, 03:16 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: I will find the Ra quote if I am able to, but there is a passage where Ra speaks of a wooden table (bed stand? something of that nature) which Don made which is teeming with positive vibrations from the love put into its creation.

The implications of this for one who uses the Ra material as a spiritual backdrop are wide. Take from it what you will.

Quote:98.16 Questioner: That is perfectly fine with us. That noise occurs at the forty-five minute time period since the tapes are forty-five minutes on a side. I would just ask as the final question, then, if the new table that Jim has built for the appurtenances is satisfactory to hold them since it will give us more room to walk around the bed, and is it better to leave it in its natural condition, or is it better to coat it with linseed oil, varnish, or paint?

Ra: I am Ra. We view this appurtenance. It sings with joy. The pine vibrates in praise. Much investment of this working in wood has been done. It is acceptable. We may suggest it be left either as it is or rubbed with the oil which also is easily magnetized and holds the proffered vibration to a profound extent.

(11-14-2011, 04:44 PM)Diana Wrote: It is humans that have thrown the balance of nature out of whack. The ecosystem would find its equilibrium if we would stay out of it. Would you say hunting deer is the answer to an out-of-balance system we created?

(11-14-2011, 03:38 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: I find the most significant part of the quote about trees to be "through the love it receives and gives in relationship to a third-density entity which is in relationship to it"

It is our perception, our "THOUGHT", that Ra is relaying here.

(11-14-2011, 03:16 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: Thank you Monica. Not a day goes by I don't realize that the production and consumption of food is deeper and more complex than I had thought the day before. It is nearly impossible for one living in our society to eliminate consumption of goods produced irresponsibly and harmfully. Discussions like these are invaluable for spiritually aware people.

(11-14-2011, 03:16 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: Are you aware of minimum-soy diet techniques for vegetarians/vegans? It is information I would love to share with my veggie friends.

(11-14-2011, 03:16 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: If anyone here wants to know how they can find more local, sustainable foods in their area, just send me a message and let me know and I'll be glad to help track down a source.

(11-14-2011, 04:44 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 03:16 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: I will find the Ra quote if I am able to, but there is a passage where Ra speaks of a wooden table (bed stand? something of that nature) which Don made which is teeming with positive vibrations from the love put into its creation.

The implications of this for one who uses the Ra material as a spiritual backdrop are wide. Take from it what you will.

Great point. Here's the quote:

Quote:98.16 Questioner: That is perfectly fine with us. That noise occurs at the forty-five minute time period since the tapes are forty-five minutes on a side. I would just ask as the final question, then, if the new table that Jim has built for the appurtenances is satisfactory to hold them since it will give us more room to walk around the bed, and is it better to leave it in its natural condition, or is it better to coat it with linseed oil, varnish, or paint?

Ra: I am Ra. We view this appurtenance. It sings with joy. The pine vibrates in praise. Much investment of this working in wood has been done. It is acceptable. We may suggest it be left either as it is or rubbed with the oil which also is easily magnetized and holds the proffered vibration to a profound extent.

(11-14-2011, 05:45 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:

(11-14-2011, 03:16 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: Are you aware of minimum-soy diet techniques for vegetarians/vegans? It is information I would love to share with my veggie friends.

Please do share! I don't rely on soy like many vegans do. I do some organic tofu and tempeh now and then. If it's organic is it in that 99% of 'bad' soy?