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RE: In regards to eating meat - @ndy - 04-03-2012
I'm not talking about taking things personaly.... or animals (so I'm prolly of topic sorry) I was specificaly wondering about someones ability empower or disempower.
You seemed certain that it was not possible to empower of disempower another - that is what I was refering too.
I compleatly agree I am responsable for my actions. As my line if thinking is of the topic I'll leave this now and go back to evolving
RE: In regards to eating meat - Monica - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 03:09 PM)Diana Wrote: With regard to 2D animals, we are 3D evolving to 4D. As I see it, we are caretakers of our environment. This is a different dynamic that 3D humans dealing with 3D humans.
Exactly. My (3D) next-door neighbor is totally oblivious and merrily buys chicken McNuggets for her children.
We're supposedly Wanderers. We know better.
As Edgar Cayce said: With ability comes responsibility.
Our ancestors had no choice but to depend on animals for survival.
We do have a choice.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Diana - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 03:28 PM)@ndy Wrote:
I was specificaly wondering about someones ability empower or disempower.
You seemed certain that it was not possible to empower of disempower another - that is what I was refering too.
I compleatly agree I am responsable for my actions. As my line if thinking is of the topic I'll leave this now and go back to evolving
You can love someone very much, but if they don't want your love, they won't accept it. In the same way, you can try to empower another person, but if they are not ready to be empowered, they won't accept your help. Neither can you disempower anyone else, unless they allow it. The choice is with the individual, not with someone outside of themselves.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Ankh - 04-03-2012
(04-02-2012, 06:26 PM)Shemaya Wrote: ...I am busy also, as you are.
I know all about the daily suffering that occurs on this planet, animals, humans. My focus and work in life has been more on humans, though I love animals. Working with humans is draining. I just came home from a 9 hour work day with patients....the work is physical, but then there are all the social/ emotional/ psyche issues that complicate things.
Hello sweetheart. I am in a similar situation, where my work shifts are 10,5 hours long, and when I am not working, I take care of my daughter who is five. Besides this there are other issues to be addressed, such as: spiritual studies, duties/honors of another sort, friends, relatives and family to keep in touch with, paying the bills, shopping for groceries and clothes, cleaning the house etc. etc.
More often than not, I am buried with guilt of not doing enough, of not meeting my own expectations, and not performing my best. I think that I should try harder and do more, and that encompasses *everything*.
I think that I should recycle more, that I should engage more in environmental issues, not use any cars, but to walk and cycling, not to consume anything, not use too much power, too much water, and too much paper, and not produce any garbage, but to do everything in my power to save this planet, to save her resources, and to be the love and the light that shines for animals, and humans, and the planet itself; that I should do more things with my daughter, with my friends, with my patients, with my relatives, with my mom, with my granny, etc. etc. I also think that I should focus on spiritual studies more, and do my duties more effeciently, so that I can be more effective, and more loving, and more serving, and more understanding, and more happy; that I should take better care of my body too, by exercising more, eating better, and take care of my spirit too, and to do more work in consciousness... And... And.. And...
Ah... I fail to meet these expectations every.single.day.
You know what? There is always more that can be done! There is always more that you could do! There is always more, more, more...
Practically speaking, there will always be something that is in need to be done, there will always be something to be concerned with, and to be worried about. Whether it is food choices, animal rights, war, civil rights, and other injustices that exist in this world, besides all that practical third density stuff that we need to do, such as *take care of our families and go to work*.
With that being said, it doesn't mean that we should stop caring, or not doing anything. But stopping for a second, and just appreciating the moment, and appreciating ourselves exactly as we are and all the efforts and the service we are already doing - that's empowering, imho. And sharing that with other people, by building them up, is what raises the vibrations of the whole planet, right? And I never heard about guilt and doubts doing that to a person, but that love and respect does. And gratitude, and appreciation is what washes our souls, so that we can believe ourselves being that love and that light again, each equally admired and adored by the Creator no matter what.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Monica - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 04:28 PM)Ankh Wrote: More often than not, I am buried with guilt of not doing enough, of not meeting my own expectations, and not performing my best. I think that I should try harder and do more, and that encompasses *everything*.
I think that I should recycle more, that I should engage more in environmental issues, not use any cars, but to walk and cycling, not to consume anything, not use too much power, too much water, and too much paper, and not produce any garbage, but to do everything in my power to save this planet, to save her resources, and to be the love and the light that shines for animals, and humans, and the planet itself; that I should do more things with my daughter, with my friends, with my patients, with my relatives, with my mom, with my granny, etc. etc. I also think that I should focus on spiritual studies more, and do my duties more effeciently, so that I can be more effective, and more loving, and more serving, and more understanding, and more happy; that I should take better care of my body too, by exercising more, eating better, and take care of my spirit too, and to do more work in consciousness... And... And.. And...
Ah... I fail to meet these expectations every.single.day.
We all do. We all fail to meet those expectations. We can't all do everything. There is so much suffering in the world.
And that is precisely the point! Eliminating meat is arguably the single most effective way to accomplish so much...It's something we CAN do, that doesn't take any more time or money. In fact, it's cheaper to eat a vegetarian diet than to eat meat. It's something we CAN DO.
Quote:If everyone went vegetarian just for one day, the U.S. would save:
100 billion gallons of water, enough to supply all the homes in New England for almost 4 months;
1.5 billion pounds of crops otherwise fed to livestock, enough to feed the state of New Mexico for more than a year;
70 million gallons of gas -- enough to fuel all the cars of Canada and Mexico combined with plenty to spare;
3 million acres of land, an area more than twice the size of Delaware;
33 tons of antibiotics.
If everyone went vegetarian just for one day, the U.S. would prevent:
Greenhouse gas emissions equivalent to 1.2 million tons of CO2, as much as produced by all of France;
3 million tons of soil erosion and $70 million in resulting economic damages;
4.5 million tons of animal excrement;
Almost 7 tons of ammonia emissions, a major air pollutant.
...According to Environmental Defense, if every American skipped one meal of chicken per week and substituted vegetarian foods instead, the carbon dioxide savings would be the same as taking more than half a million cars off of U.S. roads. See how easy it is to make an impact?
Globally, we feed 756 million tons of grain to farmed animals. As Princeton bioethicist Peter Singer notes in his new book, if we fed that grain to the 1.4 billion people who are living in abject poverty, each of them would be provided more than half a ton of grain, or about 3 pounds of grain/day -- that's twice the grain they would need to survive. And that doesn't even include the 225 million tons of soy that are produced every year, almost all of which is fed to farmed animals
from http://www.alternet.org/environment/134650/the_startling_effects_of_going_vegetarian_for_just_one_day/
Why do the meat eaters speak as though they are being asked to start a garden and spend hours every day growing their own food? or cook elaborate meals? Why do they speak as though being a vegetarian is a lot of work?
It simply isn't. If anything, it's easier. You don't have to worry about disinfecting your cutting board after cutting up meat. You don't have to worry about the stench of spoiled meat in the frig. You will save $$ on your grocery bill, and maybe even on healthcare costs long-term.
It's simply a myth, that becoming a vegetarian takes more time, money or work. That's simply not true.
Going veg is easy! It really really is! Granted, going vegan or raw vegan does require more education and a little more adjustment on shopping and eating out. But just going vegetarian - meaning, still eating eggs and dairy - is ridiculously E-Z!!
And there is no other single action that has such a profound impact on one's health, the environment, and other people. (Since saving the animals from suffering doesn't seem to be a reason to do it.)
(04-03-2012, 04:28 PM)Ankh Wrote: With that being said, it doesn't mean that we should stop caring, or not doing anything. But stopping for a second, and just appreciating the moment, and appreciating ourselves exactly as we are and all the efforts and the service we are already doing - that's empowering, imho. And sharing that with other people, by building them up, is what raises the vibrations of the whole planet, right? And I never heard about guilt and doubts doing that to a person, but that love and respect does. And gratitude, and appreciation is what washes our souls, so that we can believe ourselves being that love and that light again, each equally admired and adored by the Creator no matter what.
Sure, those things do all raise the vibration of the planet. So sure, let's do that too!
But meanwhile, the suffering of untold billions of animals on a daily basis is lowering the vibration.
No vegetarian on this forum has said anything that shot anyone down, or imposed guilt on them. I invite you to consider where the guilt is coming from. It's not coming from me, Pickle, Diana, yossarian, Pablisimo, or any of the other vegetarians (if there are others I've missed).
I don't feel any guilt about the starving children in Africa. I feel sadness and compassion, but not guilt. Why? Because I'm not doing anything that directly is causing that.
You can talk to me all day about why I 'should' feel guilt, and it won't make one iota of difference. I'm not going to feel guilty about something I'm not directly causing. Sure, I will still do my prayers and meditation for those children, and I will consider how I am a part of the collective. But I'm not responsible for those starving children in the same direct way as I would be if I went out and intentionally killed someone.
Do you see the difference?
Guilt, when there's nothing we can do, is counterproductive.
Guilt, when there IS something we can do, serves a purpose.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Tenet Nosce - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 02:13 PM)yossarian Wrote: What kind of statement would I need to make now for you to conclusively win the debate?
You've already said all of the things I was curious to know about:
yossarian Wrote:I was experimenting with all kinds of diets and I felt better on this diet than I ever had before. It was like a drug. I felt airy and euphoric and extremely energetic. It was an altered state of consciousness. Maybe I was dying and that is what dying feels like.
yossarian Wrote:Emotionally I think it's wrong for me to promote views on a field where I don't have an education. My 2009 self was confident he was making accurate statements. I still basically agree with my 2009 self, based on a whole bunch of books I've read, but I have no motivation now to try and convince anyone or spread my beliefs.
yossarian Wrote:I have changed my moral position slightly. I've decided that ensuring the health of the human body is more important than preserving the lives of animals. I still think it's wrong to kill animals but I also think the value of a thriving human life outweighs the life of an animal. Until conventional science recommends veganism and social norms make it practical, therefore, I'm gonna be conventional.
In comparison, I used to think that preserving the lives of animals trumped any minor health concerns and practical concerns. I also thought that the risk to the body was worth it to preserve the lives of animals. So my values have shifted and my morals along with them.
Your words speak for themselves.
There is nothing to "debate" and nothing to "win". I wanted to know what was going on in your mind when you wrote those posts, and if and how your mind has changed since then.
That's all I wanted to know. Thanks for sharing. You were never under "attack" and weren't in need of "defense". Most of the ranting and railing has grown out of others answering on your behalf.
(04-03-2012, 01:25 PM)Diana Wrote: So, you are just responsible and not elite or superior, but I, as a vegetarian trying to discuss here, am elitist, fanatical, and prejudice, and not just being responsible? You are name-calling.
I like to be proactive. Can we get past the name-calling and discuss the subject?
Getting past the name-calling involves a willingness to stop using a perceived "attack" as a barrier to communication. I never called you- Diana- elitist, fanatical, or prejudiced. I said these are energies which we all participate in, to some degree. The only difference among individuals are those who affirm it, those who deny it, and those who ask why it happens in the first place.
(04-03-2012, 01:02 PM)plenum Wrote: you mean people take sides, like a football team?
Yes, but much more than that. Not only the taking of sides, but the assumption that the taking of sides is the "right" and "natural" thing to do in any circumstance. Beyond this, sports are a great example of how elitism, prejudice, and fanaticism get a "free pass" in our society. Because it is supposedly "entertainment" people not only allow, but encourage these manifestations amongst each other. Again, with the assumption that this is "natural" behavior that just needs some kind of outlet rather than seeing it as one of the very incubators by which these are born and propagated throughout society.
And before somebody comes along and says it... no I am not calling all people who play or watch sports elitist, prejudiced, or fanatical. I am referring to a social program which has been created around sports.
(04-03-2012, 03:27 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: ??? When you do it, it's 'observation' but when a vegetarian does it, it's 'judgement'?
No- of course not- and your asking of this sort of question is what leads me to question if you selectively read my posts.
Quote:Why is it ok for you to speak up regarding your body of knowledge, but not ok for the vegetarians to do the same?
Go back and read the posts, if you really care to know my opinion. HINT: It has something to do with the energies of elitism, prejudice, and fanaticism.
Quote:But if you wanted to challenge yossarian's statement about protein, why did you ignore my detailed post about protein?
Because I was speaking to yossarian, not you. I don't mean this in the sense that you don't have a right to speak, or that the information you provide isn't useful. I mean it in the sense of I had a charge on yossarian, and you inserted yourself into the middle of it. If I haven't done a good enough job making this intelligible by now, then I'm afraid it is quite beyond my skill to communicate in words.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Shemaya - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 01:59 PM)@ndy Wrote:(04-03-2012, 12:30 PM)Diana Wrote:(04-03-2012, 07:18 AM)Shemaya Wrote: So I think that is what bothers me most about this particular thread, I find it dis empowering.
I can only imagine that you find it disempowering because you are in conflict. I can tell from your writing that you are a sensitive, loving person. We are all here to discuss. And if you were comfortable in your choices, you would not feel disempowered no matter what anyone said.........no one can disempower you; only you can do that.
I'm not sure I agree with this.
Isn't this the way STS gain their bonus points? By controlling people - usually by disempowering them.
I also am aware of how disempowering my actions were on my partner (all be it totally unintentional) When I was trying to fix/help him, with what we both saw as 'his' problem.
I realised how I was compounding what 'I' thought of as 'his issue'.
I stepped back and I believed in his own power to help himself.... and almost overnight he did.
Our thoughts are powerful. They don't just affect ourselves.
Diana, I am well aware that I am the one who is balancing my own power. I am also acutely aware of the powerful/disempowered duality on the planet. I am comfortable in my choices, but as Ankh said there is always more to do. And as @ndy said, there are those STS entities with agendas that seek to disempower. One of those ways is in creating a guilt- complex, which they effectively did when the teachings of Jesus were corrupted and made into a religion. That is what I am finding uncomfortable in the thread, the implication that guilt is a good motivation for our actions and choices. To me that is a disempowered way of choosing.
Unlike what Monica said, I do feel responsible for the suffering in third world countries, for the billion of starving and dying children on the planet...there is so much more I can do to stop supporting agenda's that creates the disempowerment we see all around the world, I'm am doing the best I can in my life , but there is always more to do.
(04-03-2012, 12:30 PM)Diana Wrote: As for your environment, this is where I completely depart from your stance. Why on earth would this stop you, because others don't support it?
It doesn't stop me
(04-03-2012, 12:30 PM)Diana Wrote: You just eat the plant food and not the meat from a meal. Let me add that the meal, should, in the first place, be healthy for all; so there should be enough food choices for you. You can supplement with green drinks and superfoods.
I do that at times, at other times I don't.
@ndy Wrote:I get the impression that shemaya values the needs of her family and eating with them over her own desire to change her diet.
I'm also thinking about the love and intention that goes into preparing a meal for people you love. Food made to share, prepared with love and care has got to carry that energy with it.
Thanks for understanding @ndy
I believe there is value in sharing meals with my family at this juncture and not setting myself apart from them. Will it always be this way? I don't know, things could change.
I've already shared that I have health considerations. I started a gluten free diet for those reasons and am learning about that now. Actually there is much that I am learning right now (about many things), so I have to prioritize my time. I am now and have always strived towards a more sattvic diet.
(04-03-2012, 04:28 PM)Ankh Wrote: With that being said, it doesn't mean that we should stop caring, or not doing anything. But stopping for a second, and just appreciating the moment, and appreciating ourselves exactly as we are and all the efforts and the service we are already doing - that's empowering, imho. And sharing that with other people, by building them up, is what raises the vibrations of the whole planet, right? And I never heard about guilt and doubts doing that to a person, but that love and respect does. And gratitude, and appreciation is what washes our souls, so that we can believe ourselves being that love and that light again, each equally admired and adored by the Creator no matter what.
Thank you Ankh, it's feels good to be understood, we are each perfect in our own way, I agree.
I agree, building others up, gratitude and appreciation, encouraging each other to believe in ourselves, this will raise the vibe and move us from the yellow ray to the heart.
RE: In regards to eating meat - yossarian - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 06:45 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: Your words speak for themselves.
There is nothing to "debate" and nothing to "win". I wanted to know what was going on in your mind when you wrote those posts, and if and how your mind has changed since then.
That's all I wanted to know. Thanks for sharing. You were never under "attack" and weren't in need of "defense". Most of the ranting and railing has grown out of others answering on your behalf.
You keep characterizing me as a fanatic. Almost everyone would consider that an attack.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Shemaya - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 05:38 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: And that is precisely the point! Eliminating meat is arguably the single most effective way to accomplish so much...It's something we CAN do, that doesn't take any more time or money. In fact, it's cheaper to eat a vegetarian diet than to eat meat. It's something we CAN DO.
I disagree, there are many many things we can do other than eliminating meat, and many causes that we can champion, and as many different ways to serve as there are billions of individuals, who together make One. Thankfully , you are an animal advocate so I don't have to focus on that, and can direct my energy in the way I am called.
Quote:If everyone went vegetarian just for one day, the U.S. would save:
That's great, you can start a viral internet campaign to increase awareness and call it: Vegetarian for a Day, have cute pictures of animals, all kinds of info...it could go viral, and just think of the impact it would have....but I am not trying to tell you what to do
(04-03-2012, 05:38 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: Guilt, when there's nothing we can do, is counterproductive.
Guilt, when there IS something we can do, serves a purpose.
There is always something we can do. For instance, have you fostered or adopted any abused or neglected children? Others have. There are millions of children that need love and care, that are suffering.
My foster son is now 33 and has 3 children of his own. I feel kind of egoic talking about it, but I am trying to make a point.
That is: we each have our gifts to share, one way and one honor/duty does not fit all.
Gaia is OK with humans eating meat.
There are many things we can do to meet in the middle and move towards 4D, like treat farm animals humanely, and support farmers who use humane and sustainable practices.
We are all in this together, and are all impacted by the whole, we are not just individuals but in a community with others.
Motivating others to make choices because of guilt is not the highest and best way to motivate, imo.
RE: In regards to eating meat - 3DMonkey - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 03:38 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:(04-03-2012, 03:09 PM)Diana Wrote: With regard to 2D animals, we are 3D evolving to 4D. As I see it, we are caretakers of our environment. This is a different dynamic that 3D humans dealing with 3D humans.
Exactly. My (3D) next-door neighbor is totally oblivious and merrily buys chicken McNuggets for her children.
We're supposedly Wanderers. We know better.
As Edgar Cayce said: With ability comes responsibility.
Our ancestors had no choice but to depend on animals for survival.
We do have a choice.
So, "merrily" is bad for life?
It seems the spiritual implications of such merriment is positive and joyous.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Diana - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 08:17 PM)Shemaya Wrote:(04-03-2012, 05:38 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: And that is precisely the point! Eliminating meat is arguably the single most effective way to accomplish so much...It's something we CAN do, that doesn't take any more time or money. In fact, it's cheaper to eat a vegetarian diet than to eat meat. It's something we CAN DO.
I disagree, there are many many things we can do other than eliminating meat, and many causes that we can champion, and as many different ways to serve as there are billions of individuals, who together make One. Thankfully , you are an animal advocate so I don't have to focus on that, and can direct my energy in the way I am called.
I think what was meant was that you can do this without any extra effort. Nothing needs to be championed. You have to eat. So you eat in a way that doesn't cause harm. You don't have to write your congressman, or volunteer at the soup kitchen, or anything other than choose different foods to eat.
I'm not trying to convince you to not eat meat, just trying to get a clear picture of the situation represented here.
(04-03-2012, 08:26 PM)3DMonkey Wrote:(04-03-2012, 03:38 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:(04-03-2012, 03:09 PM)Diana Wrote: With regard to 2D animals, we are 3D evolving to 4D. As I see it, we are caretakers of our environment. This is a different dynamic that 3D humans dealing with 3D humans.
Exactly. My (3D) next-door neighbor is totally oblivious and merrily buys chicken McNuggets for her children.
So, "merrily" is bad for life?
It seems the spiritual implications of such merriment is positive and joyous.
"Merrily" is not bad for life, even in the context. That joy of getting her children something they like (because they are trained to like it) is the only thing good in this scenario.
First, feeding children this food is not responsible parenting. I don't mean any offense to parents, but I don't think there is any nutrition at all in McDonald's chicken McNuggets. Why feed them this sort of food? Additionally, it causes harm to the body.
Second, this kind of food is the result of major harm to the environment, as well as the animals.
So, I would have to say the negative aspects outweigh the "merrily."
(04-03-2012, 06:45 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:(04-03-2012, 01:25 PM)Diana Wrote: So, you are just responsible and not elite or superior, but I, as a vegetarian trying to discuss here, am elitist, fanatical, and prejudice, and not just being responsible? You are name-calling.
I like to be proactive. Can we get past the name-calling and discuss the subject?
Getting past the name-calling involves a willingness to stop using a perceived "attack" as a barrier to communication. I never called you- Diana- elitist, fanatical, or prejudiced. I said these are energies which we all participate in, to some degree. The only difference among individuals are those who affirm it, those who deny it, and those who ask why it happens in the first place.
Okay. You did not call me that, personally; but actually I did not mean it that way (just using myself as one of the vegetarians). I would like to get back to the subject of the thread. I don't feel there was a barrier because of a perceived attack (perhaps a short aside); I am still willing and open to discussing this material.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Tenet Nosce - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 08:11 PM)yossarian Wrote: You keep characterizing me as a fanatic.
Actually no, I have not once characterized you- yossarian- as a fanatic. At the most I insinuated that *your post* sounded fanatical to me. Just as when you called my view "bigoted" I didn't think you were characterizing me, as a whole person, a bigot.
In response to my post, you said:
yossarian Wrote:From my own perspective my behaviour then appears fanatical and extremist. But I basically express myself in a sensationalist, extremist way most of the time.
Then, you later said:
yossarian Wrote:I'm still a fanatic just not about food.
Looks like you called yourself a fanatic and are now accusing me of doing so for replying:
Tenet Nosce Wrote:Yes, I want to understand more of what it is like to be a fanatic. It appears that you have had success balancing this issue within yourself, and I would like you to share your wisdom with me about it. I feel it is my honor/responsibility to offer balance to the energy of fanaticism in the world, and I wish to be more empowered to do that through understanding the process by which a fanatic arrives at balance.
Is this what you are talking about? Otherwise I am at a loss.
yossarian Wrote:Almost everyone would consider that an attack.
No, I don't think so. Firstly- how about your own self?
yossarian Wrote:Only extremists and sensationalists are listened to.
So, I'm a little confused... you call yourself a fanatic, then claim that only extremists are listened to. Now you feel "attacked"? Sounds like you should feel "honored" to me. Isn't that what you are going for as a genuine expression of yourself?
Secondly- I wouldn't say "almost everybody" would perceive it as an attack. In my opinion, most people give fanaticism the silent nod, so long as it suits their own personal agenda, as I stated above. Besides that, I can think of several people who would be proud to call themselves a fanatic.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Monica - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 08:17 PM)Shemaya Wrote: I disagree, there are many many things we can do other than eliminating meat, and many causes that we can champion, and as many different ways to serve as there are billions of individuals, who together make One. Thankfully , you are an animal advocate so I don't have to focus on that, and can direct my energy in the way I am called.
Many people eliminate meat, without being animal activists.
Activism takes time.
Eliminating meat doesn't.
(04-03-2012, 08:17 PM)Shemaya Wrote: That's great, you can start a viral internet campaign to increase awareness and call it: Vegetarian for a Day, have cute pictures of animals, all kinds of info...it could go viral, and just think of the impact it would have....but I am not trying to tell you what to do
I already do that on a regular basis, but thank you for the suggestion.
However, you seem to have missed my point, which is that eliminating meat has an exponential effect, greater than just about anything else.
I'm hearing a lot of defenses about "oh I already do other things...I can't take on vegetarianism too...I don't have time...we can't all champion all causes" etc. and my response to that, that's true, BUT we CAN quit eating meat, and it doesn't take any time at all, and it would have a profound effect.
(04-03-2012, 08:17 PM)Shemaya Wrote: There is always something we can do. For instance, have you fostered or adopted any abused or neglected children? Others have. There are millions of children that need love and care, that are suffering.
My foster son is now 33 and has 3 children of his own. I feel kind of egoic talking about it, but I am trying to make a point.
By asking that question, it shows you missed my point. We're not having a contest to see who does the most for the planet.
No I haven't fostered any children, because "I can't do everything" and it's very nice that you have. Let's not get tit-for-tat.
I do animal activism, you foster children. Cool. In addition to animal activism and other stuff I do, I also don't eat meat. It's easy to do, and it doesn't require any time or extra money. It even saves me money.
Eliminating meat isn't in the same category as activism or fostering a child, because those things take time and money.
Eliminating meat is something most of us can do, without adding any additional burden to the stuff we already do.
(04-03-2012, 08:17 PM)Shemaya Wrote: Gaia is OK with humans eating meat.
Maybe so. But the animals aren't.
(04-03-2012, 08:17 PM)Shemaya Wrote: Motivating others to make choices because of guilt is not the highest and best way to motivate, imo.
No one can make someone else feel guilt.
Guilt comes from within.
I am not taking the blame for any meat-eaters feeling guilt.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Tenet Nosce - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 08:48 PM)Diana Wrote: Okay. You did not call me that, personally; but actually I did not mean it that way (just using myself as one of the vegetarians). I would like to get back to the subject of the thread. I don't feel there was a barrier because of a perceived attack (perhaps a short aside); I am still willing and open to discussing this material.
Great! Because I have been finding your posts interesting, thoughtful, and fairly devoid of the energies of which I was speaking.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Monica - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 08:26 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: So, "merrily" is bad for life?
No.
(04-03-2012, 08:26 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: It seems the spiritual implications of such merriment is positive and joyous.
That's the whole point. My next-door neighbor isn't aware, so her merriment about eating animals is innocent.
We are aware.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Shemaya - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 08:48 PM)Diana Wrote:. No I can't, it would require extra effort to do more than I do. And if I am buying and cooking meat for my family it is not causing any more harm, they are already eating it, me eating some of it changes nothing.(04-03-2012, 08:17 PM)Shemaya Wrote:(04-03-2012, 05:38 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: And that is precisely the point! Eliminating meat is arguably the single most effective way to accomplish so much...It's something we CAN do, that doesn't take any more time or money. In fact, it's cheaper to eat a vegetarian diet than to eat meat. It's something we CAN DO.
I disagree, there are many many things we can do other than eliminating meat, and many causes that we can champion, and as many different ways to serve as there are billions of individuals, who together make One. Thankfully , you are an animal advocate so I don't have to focus on that, and can direct my energy in the way I am called.
I think what was meant was that you can do this without any extra effort.
RE: In regards to eating meat - 3DMonkey - 04-03-2012
Okay, Diana. That's where I emphatically disagree with the spiritual tone of this thread. There is no harm in joy of the moment. Absolutely none. If joy of the moment is seen as a compromise of with evil three persons removed, then joy is never accessible, and we might as well lock ourselves in a tomb of purity.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Monica - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 09:28 PM)Shemaya Wrote: me eating some of it changes nothing.
It would change awareness.
Awareness isn't nothing. It's something.
RE: In regards to eating meat - 3DMonkey - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 09:27 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:(04-03-2012, 08:26 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: So, "merrily" is bad for life?
No.
(04-03-2012, 08:26 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: It seems the spiritual implications of such merriment is positive and joyous.
That's the whole point. My next-door neighbor isn't aware, so her merriment about eating animals is innocent.
We are aware.
Here we are back to judgement, again.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Shemaya - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 09:29 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:(04-03-2012, 09:28 PM)Shemaya Wrote: me eating some of it changes nothing.
It would change awareness.
Awareness isn't nothing. It's something.
I've already spoken extensively with them about it. They are aware. It does nothing and changes nothing for me to eat what I cook them for dinner.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Monica - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 09:18 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: Actually no, I have not once characterized you- yossarian- as a fanatic.
Yeah you did. In your post, you broke these apart, but this is how they originally appeared in post #2056.
Tenet Nosce Wrote:yossarian Wrote:Being a fanatic?
Yes, I want to understand more of what it is like to be a fanatic. It appears that you have had success balancing this issue within yourself, and I would like you to share your wisdom with me about it. I feel it is my honor/responsibility to offer balance to the energy of fanaticism in the world, and I wish to be more empowered to do that through understanding the process by which a fanatic arrives at balance.
(04-03-2012, 09:35 PM)Shemaya Wrote: I've already spoken extensively with them about it. They are aware. It does nothing and changes nothing for me to eat what I cook them for dinner.
I'm certainly not telling you what to do in your own situation. However I have learned from my own experiences that people tend to respond better to example, not words.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Shemaya - 04-03-2012
The animals are Gaia, their body is her body, and she has said through different channels the same message. You've said it doesn't resonate with you, Monica, and that's Ok, but it doesn't make it untrue.
It resonates strongly for me.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Monica - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 09:32 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: Here we are back to judgement, again.
How is saying "we are aware" judgmental? Do you deny that we are aware?
(04-03-2012, 09:38 PM)Shemaya Wrote: The animals are Gaia, their body is her body, and she has said through different channels the same message. You've said it doesn't resonate with you, Monica, and that's Ok, but it doesn't make it untrue.
It resonates strongly for me.
By that logic, then Gaia doesn't care about humans suffering either. So I guess we can just go around killing people.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Shemaya - 04-03-2012
Monica Wrote:(04-03-2012, 09:35 PM)Shemaya Wrote: I've already spoken extensively with them about it. They are aware. It does nothing and changes nothing for me to eat what I cook them for dinner.
I'm certainly not telling you what to do in your own situation. However I have learned from my own experiences that people tend to respond better to example, not words.
I do give them examples and talk to them about it....glad to hear you are not telling me what I should do
(04-03-2012, 09:40 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:That is not what she said at all, that's twisted logic actually(04-03-2012, 09:32 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: Here we are back to judgement, again.
How is saying "we are aware" judgmental? Do you deny that we are aware?
(04-03-2012, 09:38 PM)Shemaya Wrote: The animals are Gaia, their body is her body, and she has said through different channels the same message. You've said it doesn't resonate with you, Monica, and that's Ok, but it doesn't make it untrue.
It resonates strongly for me.
By that logic, then Gaia doesn't care about humans suffering either. So I guess we can just go around killing people.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Tenet Nosce - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 09:37 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: Yeah you did.
If I haven't already asked you to please stay out of the side discussion with yossarian, consider this a direct request. If you are unwilling to honor the request, please let me know, and I will take it to PM.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Monica - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 09:42 PM)Shemaya Wrote: I do give them examples and talk to them about it....glad to hear you are not telling me what I should do
What I meant was, if a hypothetical person, let's say Sue, wanted to raise her family's awareness, and reduce their meat consumption, it would be far more effective for her to quit eating meat herself, or at least reduce it. They would then notice her actions. Just telling them about it, while still eating meat, won't work at all.
You know the saying "children do what they see their parents do, not what they're told"
(04-03-2012, 09:42 PM)Shemaya Wrote: That is not what she said at all, that's twisted logic actually
Then please explain it to me. How are animals "Gaia's body" but humans aren't? Why does Gaia "not mind" her animal children suffering horribly, but does mind her human children being violent to one another?
Q'uo has stated that Gaia's turbulent weather is blowing off steam. I seem to recall that was from all the violence, hatred and fear energies from the humans.
So does Gaia mind or not?
(04-03-2012, 09:44 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote: If I haven't already asked you to please stay out of the side discussion with yossarian, consider this a direct request. If you are unwilling to honor the request, please let me know, and I will take it to PM.
I'm unwilling to censor myself. Anyone is free to respond to any post. There is no rule against that.
You are of course free to pm anyone you like, if you prefer privacy.
RE: In regards to eating meat - Shemaya - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 09:48 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:(04-03-2012, 09:42 PM)Shemaya Wrote: I do give them examples and talk to them about it....glad to hear you are not telling me what I should do
What I meant was, if a hypothetical person, let's say Sue, wanted to raise her family's awareness, and reduce their meat consumption, it would be far more effective for her to quit eating meat herself, or at least reduce it. They would then notice her actions. Just telling them about it, while still eating meat, won't work at all.
You know the saying "children do what they see their parents do, not what they're told"
I eat small amounts of meat when I eat it, unless I feel depleted in iron and feel that heme-iron would be beneficial in the moment. I have reduced meat consumption. Yes, children see what their parents do and many times they have two parents who have different viewpoints.
(04-03-2012, 09:48 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:(04-03-2012, 09:42 PM)Shemaya Wrote: That is not what she said at all, that's twisted logic actually
Then please explain it to me. How are animals "Gaia's body" but humans aren't? Why does Gaia "not mind" her animal children suffering horribly, but does mind her human children being violent to one another?
Q'uo has stated that Gaia's turbulent weather is blowing off steam. I seem to recall that was from all the violence, hatred and fear energies from the humans.
So does Gaia mind or not?
As far as I know, humans are Gaia's body as well, the whole planet is. Gaia grieves over all planetary suffering, animals , humans, and especially children.... all suffering is painful to her.
Eating meat does not necessarily cause great suffering to the animal. Death is not necessarily "suffering". Inhumane treatment and cruelty cause suffering however, and I am sure Gaia grieves over that also.
RE: In regards to eating meat - BrownEye - 04-03-2012
I think i have seen the light. I think there may be truth to the idea that bucking the system, con-sensus reality, the establishment, really does take an elitist zealot driven by fanaticism.
LoL!
RE: In regards to eating meat - Monica - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 10:03 PM)Shemaya Wrote: As far as I know, humans are Gaia's body as well, the whole planet is. Gaia grieves over all planetary suffering, animals , humans, and especially children.... all suffering is painful to her.
Eating meat does not necessarily cause great suffering to the animal. Death is not necessarily "suffering". Inhumane treatment and cruelty cause suffering however, and I am sure Gaia grieves over that also.
Oh, so are you saying Gaia is ok with humans eating animals, but not if the animals suffer?
RE: In regards to eating meat - Tenet Nosce - 04-03-2012
(04-03-2012, 10:04 PM)Pickle Wrote: I think i have seen the light. I think there may be truth to the idea that bucking the system, con-sensus reality, the establishment, really does take an elitist zealot driven by fanaticism.
LoL!
Don't forget uber-compassionate... and with squeaky "clean" chakras!