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RE: Courting the maiden - Minyatur - 05-21-2016
I don't think opening the heart in service is folly, I simply try to tell you that the manner you find to be of service is not what I am consonant with. And I do believe that neither in this life nor after, will I come to experience the exact same perceptive and feeling you have of things.
I am fond of teaching because I both value and love wisdom, and consider it healing in itself. Wisdom is what made me come with peace with the whole of my fate, it is what made me distill all my experiences as love and light, just as to wish them to not have been any different than what they were. It is what lead me to perceive that every step along the way of my path was always there for a reason. And in the end I can only offer love as it is known to myself and not as I see it being known by others.
I am not saying that I will never change, but instead telling you that we will both change. That we are here working on different resistances we each have toward the end game. And this solely because as you said we enjoy participating in the system in our own ways, and desire not for the paradox of our identity within separation to end. So while we so often seek to see beyond separation, each always resist unity in it's awareness and pick among the many illusions those we desire to solve and those we desire to keep for a time.
You tell me that the things I speak of are unrelated to this, but then why does Ra say the exact same things as I do?
Quote:15.7 Questioner: What is the greatest service that our population on this planet could perform individually?
Ra: I am Ra. There is but one service. The Law is One. The offering of self to Creator is the greatest service, the unity, the fountainhead. The entity who seeks the One Creator is with infinite intelligence. From this seeking, from this offering, a great multiplicity of opportunities will evolve depending upon the mind/body/spirit complexes’ distortions with regard to the various illusory aspects or energy centers of the various complexes of your illusion.
Thus, some become healers, some workers, some teachers, and so forth.
I think all of my perspective is both within this quote and the two previous ones I shared in my previous post. So why are not these ideas consonant with the 6th archetype, and why should my desire to be a teacher, just as manner to find and radiate love from within myself, be untrue to the archetype only because it is not done through a feeling of courtship?
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-21-2016
Quote:And with wisdom comes transformation of the mind, letting go of distortions for higher ways instead as one becomes more and more aware to provide higher service.
I believe this is our fundamental disagreement. I believe, at its core, that the Transformation of the Mind is about love and specifically not wisdom. The male in the card has his eyes closed, he sees nothing.
I think it's possible you may be conflating the Transformation of the Mind with the Transformation of the Body? - in the Death card, we are consciously harvesting what we want to take with us to the next moment/day/birth. Wisdom and discernment are fairly paramount. But there is (hopefully!) little wisdom in courting a maiden, which is likely one reason why the analogy was chosen - we act stupid when we're in love. We're Fools. And within the archetype I believe comes the need to allow oneself to look/feel stupid. The dark imp serves the right hand path in the Significator.
I feel like the Q'uo sessions I shared described what I've been saying, one thing especially being about the point of catalyst is never to suffer through it, the point of catalyst is to rise above it in love and harmony. So yes, I do see where there could be some scenario where I'm not actually supposed to feed a hungry person, but the chances are that if I do feed them anyway, they'll still find the catalyst they need eventually. And I don't think it would be depolarizing, because I don't think a properly courted High Priestess would "depolarize" me for not listening to her to be selfish. That seems pretty twisted from my understandings of the Confederation teachings, which is that love is always more important than wisdom. Wisdom refines love. Only in 3rd density would we ever consider to put the cart before the horse.
The funny thing about the Ra material is that we can all take the same quote and use it to justify different points of view. Yes, the "haunt rather than explicate" quote is the one I had to use to defend myself for pages while you took umbrage with the maiden/prostitute analogy. You may have been talking about the Transformation in context the whole time, but the problem is, when you disagree with the core image of the archetype, how can we relate anything to any of the other imagery? How do we talk about it in context? How do we talk about what the closed eyes mean, or the arms crossed holding hands, or any of it? I asked what you let go of, and you say "these things fall away" but what things? And what about using the transformation consciously?
Quote:All of this happening through heightened awareness of it all (transformation of the mind)
Rereading your post, I'm not sure how "heightened awareness of it all" is a good quip for transformation of the mind. Ra says, "In this image of Transformation of Mind, then, each of the females points the way it would go, but is not able to move, nor are the two female entities striving to do so. They are at rest. The conscious entity holds both and will turn itself one way or the other or, potentially, backwards and forwards, rocking first one way then the other and not achieving the transformation. In order for the Transformation of Mind to occur, one principle governing the use of the deep mind must be abandoned." I mean, Ra says in the Transformation that something must be abandoned. It seems incongruent to the idea that in the Transformation, one must learn to contain more within the mind.
It also seems like you could be talking about the Catalyst/Experience (of the mind)? The Catalyst of the Mind has a box with eyes upon it, looking around at and aware of all of the catalyst and all of Creation, and then Experience decides where to distill it. The transformation is a whole nother thing. I mean, "through heightened awareness of it all" could be referring to the Great Way and its lifted veil, but I don't think that it describes the core meaning of the Transformation as a card within itself. You could be talking about getting to know the High Priestess, but still, you have to choose which High Priestess, you can't have both/all of them for the transformation to occur. That's been my point this whole time. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There's a quip for the Transformation of the Mind.
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-21-2016
What I also want to add, that I think is funny about this conversation, is that personally I've always felt that my personal distortions leaned more towards wisdom than love. That's why, upon realization that love was the way, I've gotten more and more gung-ho. But again, just my personal perspective, I've probably just depolarized myself to the green-ray with all my martyrdom.
RE: Courting the maiden - Minyatur - 05-21-2016
(05-21-2016, 04:11 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:Quote:And with wisdom comes transformation of the mind, letting go of distortions for higher ways instead as one becomes more and more aware to provide higher service.
I believe this is our fundamental disagreement. I believe, at its core, that the Transformation of the Mind is about love and specifically not wisdom. The male in the card has his eyes closed, he sees nothing.
I did not say it is solely about wisdom, but wisdom can't be totally unrelated. We speak of the mind, any newly gained awareness forces one to make new choices based upon love, which then can come to bring transformation.
To me the closed eyes can mean to look through the unconscious, which was part of my example, and which does not negate unconscious wisdom. I don't think I rationalize with my mind as much as I may have made it seem, what I do is to put my inner feelings into words if it is required because my feelings already are the harvest of inner wisdom. I trust my feelings and intuition quite a lot and seek to hone them. Also, love and wisdom should not be separated in my view, because within this original thought of love we gain wisdom of love. I don't think I denied love having meaning either, I simply mean that love is extremely different for each of us and the mirror of this experience shows more about our pasts and prior experiences of love within this original thought. If I spent what seems like an eternity not desiring compassion, nor accommodation nor to simply receive loving feelings from others, then it'd be weird that the harvest of those experiences would be to seek to give what was always unlike myself, and it would seem those I can provide the best service of myself to, are not the kind of that would require this type of service and may require a service one who would be able to provide the other, would not be able to provide them.
(05-21-2016, 04:11 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: I think it's possible you may be conflating the Transformation of the Mind with the Transformation of the Body? - in the Death card, we are consciously harvesting what we want to take with us to the next moment/day/birth. Wisdom and discernment are fairly paramount. But there is (hopefully!) little wisdom in courting a maiden, which is likely one reason why the analogy was chosen - we act stupid when we're in love. We're Fools. And within the archetype I believe comes the need to allow oneself to look/feel stupid. The dark imp serves the right hand path in the Significator.
I don't think I have mixed those although I can see how they could be seen as linked.
(05-21-2016, 04:11 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: I feel like the Q'uo sessions I shared described what I've been saying, one thing especially being about the point of catalyst is never to suffer through it, the point of catalyst is to rise above it in love and harmony. So yes, I do see where there could be some scenario where I'm not actually supposed to feed a hungry person, but the chances are that if I do feed them anyway, they'll still find the catalyst they need eventually. And I don't think it would be depolarizing, because I don't think a properly courted High Priestess would "depolarize" me for not listening to her to be selfish. That seems pretty twisted from my understandings of the Confederation teachings, which is that love is always more important than wisdom. Wisdom refines love. Only in 3rd density would we ever consider to put the cart before the horse.
The High Priestess is not punishing you, it is but your unconscious awareness/wisdom. By not listening to your High Priestess, I'd say you would simply betray yourself in some way. Your High Priestess will most likely talk to you through feelings, which can then be put into words if you so desire. So you would feel a resistance or have a feeling of doing what is wrong, which would be what is depolarizing in the scenario.
I see the fool quite differently than you do. The fool that desires to be wise in it's ways will take the required detours to find within himself to be wise. He knows where to go but may take wrong turns upon the path. This is how I am a fool with my High Priestess, I seek her wisdom and awareness and although it has lead me to strange places like the bible or any seemingly off path set of thoughts, each step had a purpose in teaching me something and acted as a gateway. The fool gets somewhere through his inherent faith and pure intent to seek.
(05-21-2016, 04:11 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: The funny thing about the Ra material is that we can all take the same quote and use it to justify different points of view. Yes, the "haunt rather than explicate" quote is the one I had to use to defend myself for pages while you took umbrage with the maiden/prostitute analogy. You may have been talking about the Transformation in context the whole time, but the problem is, when you disagree with the core image of the archetype, how can we relate anything to any of the other imagery? How do we talk about it in context? How do we talk about what the closed eyes mean, or the arms crossed holding hands, or any of it? I asked what you let go of, and you say "these things fall away" but what things? And what about using the transformation consciously?
I transformed the maiden/prostitute analogy into a polarized relationship with your unconscious mind, which keeps the core element that one makes choice upon the principle governing the resources of the deep mind. I don't dismiss the tarot image either, the symbolism is all there for a reason. The courtship focus is there to represent the positive relationship with one's deep mind, but I don't think that is confined to that particular image of a focus of positive relations. I resonate with the idea of conscious partnership much more than courtship and I don't deny that courtship could work for the vast majority if that is what they resonate with.
I've never been one in my life to consider others as things to plunder, but I'd consider this a more accurate representation of the negative relation aspect. To me it boils down to doing things through harmony or disharmony and what falls away are old distortions as new choices are made through heightened awareness. Instead of courtship, I said that you can find the positive relation through respect and appreciation or teaching. So I do not think I deny the tarot image. I think the courtship analogy is another image put upon the first one as to hint toward something. It's not like I have denied the idea that there is a polarized duality in one's relationship with the deep mind or others, which is what I've been saying the core idea is.
About using it consciously, well that is what I talk about when I speak of heightened awareness. So let's take how Ra first describes the archetype :
Quote:the student of the mysteries being transformed by the need to choose betwixt the light and the dark in mind.
What creates a need to choose in your opinion? To me that is heightened awareness. And then the choice is between the light and the dark in mind, which to me implies that it is love as known to the mind. To me this is what the first quote means, it is the distortion-less version of the archetype. The subsequent maiden/prostitute analogy, is a more colorful image that potentially provide a better opportunity of insight for one who resonates with it.
(05-21-2016, 04:11 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:Quote:All of this happening through heightened awareness of it all (transformation of the mind)
Rereading your post, I'm not sure how "heightened awareness of it all" is a good quip for transformation of the mind. Ra says, "In this image of Transformation of Mind, then, each of the females points the way it would go, but is not able to move, nor are the two female entities striving to do so. They are at rest. The conscious entity holds both and will turn itself one way or the other or, potentially, backwards and forwards, rocking first one way then the other and not achieving the transformation. In order for the Transformation of Mind to occur, one principle governing the use of the deep mind must be abandoned." I mean, Ra says in the Transformation that something must be abandoned. It seems incongruent to the idea that in the Transformation, one must learn to contain more within the mind.
You can't come in touch with your High Priestess without heightened awareness for one, and like I said above, heightened awareness allows you the opportunity to makes choices for the transformation.
(05-21-2016, 04:11 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: It also seems like you could be talking about the Catalyst/Experience (of the mind)? The Catalyst of the Mind has a box with eyes upon it, looking around at and aware of all of the catalyst and all of Creation, and then Experience decides where to distill it. The transformation is a whole nother thing. I mean, "through heightened awareness of it all" could be referring to the Great Way and its lifted veil, but I don't think that it describes the core meaning of the Transformation as a card within itself. You could be talking about getting to know the High Priestess, but still, you have to choose which High Priestess, you can't have both/all of them for the transformation to occur. That's been my point this whole time. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There's a quip for the Transformation of the Mind.
The transformation is linked to all of the previous cards and refines the last one in my view. When you have stumbled upon this archetype, it created catalyst for yourself and heightened your awareness of yourself. This lead you to make conscious choices in regards to what you want toward yourself and others, and this lead to transformation of the configuration of your mind.
I get the letting go of process. To me there is not truly 2 women, but one. So it's a matter of how you will treat that woman and the direction toward which it will lead you, because the woman is not there to decide but to offer you both possibilities. The conscious mind decides as it was placed under a veil for this purpose, to find within confusion what it truly desires.
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-21-2016
But... there isn't one maiden. There are two maidens. They represent polarity. You say you see polarity, but then at the end of your post, you say "There is only one maiden". The card is about walking the path of polarity within third density, and making The Choice. Of course outside of the illusion there is only one maiden, but we are trying to talk about within the system of polarity.
Quote:I did not say it is solely about wisdom, but wisdom can't be totally unrelated. We speak of the mind, any newly gained awareness forces one to make new choices based upon love, which then can come to bring transformation.
Yes, but there is a difference between "making a new choice based upon love" and "making a new choice based upon STO, green-ray love", and the card is about both but choosing the latter if you want to be harvested 4D+.
Quote:I see the fool quite differently than you do. The fool that desires to be wise in it's ways will take the required detours to find within himself to be wise. He knows where to go but may take wrong turns upon the path. This is how I am a fool with my High Priestess, I seek her wisdom and awareness and although it has lead me to strange places like the bible or any seemingly off path set of thoughts, each step had a purpose in teaching me something and acted as a gateway. The fool gets somewhere through his inherent faith and pure intent to seek.
You think the Fool's Journey is about obtaining wisdom, no matter what detours you have to take?
This is third density, shifting into fourth. The archetypes are a teaching tool for the third density experience. I just can't get past that you insist wisdom is more important than love.
This is how I see the Fool's Journey in the context of the archetype. The Fool has found the potential for love all around him, but to progress through the density (continue down his path), the Fool must decide if it wants to love carefully and with an always open heart, or without thought to the state of their heart chakra. This is the need to choose betwixt the light and the dark. As the Fool lets go of the prostitute and chooses to carefully court the maiden, this is the process upon which he hones his intuition, because through the veil in the mind complex, our initial unconscious impulses aren't "pure" I guess could be the word for it. We are working towards the athanor of the alchemist. As we take the time to carefully court her, that which she returns is greater in value. Ra says if we refuse to transform or use the left-hand path, "that which is gained is rough, prostituted, and without great virtue" - therefore, the High Priestess isn't giving you her best, because you aren't giving her your best. It's like when Ra talks about the blue-ray transfer between mated entities being a "jewel dearly bought" - it requires dedicated, conscious, willful effort towards polarizing on the STO path i.e. crystallizing the heart chakra.
The Higher Self too is without polarity. We choose the polarity, and then the priestess goes that way. And we can't abandon her hand and run back to the other priestess, or, clothe her in a different guise from time to time, because we undo the transformation. The paths are diverging.
Quote:What creates a need to choose in your opinion? To me that is heightened awareness. And then the choice is between the light and the dark in mind, which to me implies that it is love as known to the mind. To me this is what the first quote means, it is the distortion-less version of the archetype. The subsequent maiden/prostitute analogy, is a more colorful image that potentially provide a better opportunity of insight for one who resonates with it.
Yes, the need to choose is created by the heightened awareness given by utilizing the Catalyst/Experience duo. Ra's referring to the previous set of cards as he leads into #6. Is there something else you would say in the imagery of the Lovers card that points to "heightened awareness", other than the closed eyes, since we disagree on their meaning?
RE: Courting the maiden - Minyatur - 05-21-2016
(05-21-2016, 08:15 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: But... there isn't one maiden. There are two maidens. They represent polarity. You say you see polarity, but then at the end of your post, you say "There is only one maiden". The card is about walking the path of polarity within third density, and making The Choice. Of course outside of the illusion there is only one maiden, but we are trying to talk about within the system of polarity.
Semantics... there is two facet to the maiden. We can word this in many ways while not losing the original meaning.
(05-21-2016, 08:15 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:Quote:I did not say it is solely about wisdom, but wisdom can't be totally unrelated. We speak of the mind, any newly gained awareness forces one to make new choices based upon love, which then can come to bring transformation.
Yes, but there is a difference between "making a new choice based upon love" and "making a new choice based upon STO, green-ray love", and the card is about both but choosing the latter if you want to be harvested 4D+.
I never denied that, just that wisdom is intertwined to STO green-ray love also. I don't understand how you can perceive one without the other, sure you can be as loving as it can get in your desire to serve others, but you still learn from your experiences which creates change in how you perceive the world that surrounds you and forces you to make new choices in how you desire to interact with it in your desire to serve others. That does not keep you from loving any part of it, and can probably do more of allowing you to love more of it or love it more deeply with more understanding of it all.
(05-21-2016, 08:15 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:Quote:I see the fool quite differently than you do. The fool that desires to be wise in it's ways will take the required detours to find within himself to be wise. He knows where to go but may take wrong turns upon the path. This is how I am a fool with my High Priestess, I seek her wisdom and awareness and although it has lead me to strange places like the bible or any seemingly off path set of thoughts, each step had a purpose in teaching me something and acted as a gateway. The fool gets somewhere through his inherent faith and pure intent to seek.
You think the Fool's Journey is about obtaining wisdom, no matter what detours you have to take?
No I don't, I am talking about myself. I did not come into this world for the same reasons you did and have not programmed myself the same path and steps and they would most likely not be consonant with myself.
(05-21-2016, 08:15 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: This is third density, shifting into fourth. The archetypes are a teaching tool for the third density experience. I just can't get past that you insist wisdom is more important than love.
Not more important, they go hand in hand with one another and one cannot truly be without the other. Wisdom is knowledge that comes from experience of love.
I think whether one has a wisdom/love balance or love/wisdom balance does not prevent anything regarding the archetype and is more related to how they will be personified within self, which is supposed to be unique to each.
(05-21-2016, 08:15 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: This is how I see the Fool's Journey in the context of the archetype. The Fool has found the potential for love all around him, but to progress through the density (continue down his path), the Fool must decide if it wants to love carefully and with an always open heart, or without thought to the state of their heart chakra. This is the need to choose betwixt the light and the dark. As the Fool lets go of the prostitute and chooses to carefully court the maiden, this is the process upon which he hones his intuition, because through the veil in the mind complex, our initial unconscious impulses aren't "pure" I guess could be the word for it. We are working towards the athanor of the alchemist. As we take the time to carefully court her, that which she returns is greater in value. Ra says if we refuse to transform or use the left-hand path, "that which is gained is rough, prostituted, and without great virtue" - therefore, the High Priestess isn't giving you her best, because you aren't giving her your best. It's like when Ra talks about the blue-ray transfer between mated entities being a "jewel dearly bought" - it requires dedicated, conscious, willful effort towards polarizing on the STO path i.e. crystallizing the heart chakra.
I don't really disagree with any of this. Although I'd say the High Priestess is not like a universal thing and the essence of it is highly personal to each. I do not resonate with imposing the image of either a maiden nor a prostitute upon my High Priestess, because to me she is neither of those. But I still don't not deny the whole polarity aspect of it all nor the conscious choice that comes with it, and that there is an equivalent to maiden/prostitute to be made as they hint to an actual duality that is there.
I work on crystallizing each of my chakras, so it's not like I try to deny the heart either.
(05-21-2016, 08:15 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: The Higher Self too is without polarity. We choose the polarity, and then the priestess goes that way. And we can't abandon her hand and run back to the other priestess, or, clothe her in a different guise from time to time, because we undo the transformation. The paths are diverging.
You can ever change path, if it is what you are consonant with. I'd say it is unlikely once a path has truly been taken though and would require strong external catalyst.
(05-21-2016, 08:15 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:Quote:What creates a need to choose in your opinion? To me that is heightened awareness. And then the choice is between the light and the dark in mind, which to me implies that it is love as known to the mind. To me this is what the first quote means, it is the distortion-less version of the archetype. The subsequent maiden/prostitute analogy, is a more colorful image that potentially provide a better opportunity of insight for one who resonates with it.
Yes, the need to choose is created by the heightened awareness given by utilizing the Catalyst/Experience duo. Ra's referring to the previous set of cards as he leads into #6. Is there something else you would say in the imagery of the Lovers card that points to "heightened awareness", other than the closed eyes, since we disagree on their meaning?
Well outside the imagery, it's position within the archetypes of the mind and that the transformation(s) leads to the great ways of the mind. The male in the image represents what has been built up by the conscious mind, which then leads to the choice. The point of transformation needs to be reached by the magician.
RE: Courting the maiden - Minyatur - 05-21-2016
(05-21-2016, 04:25 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: What I also want to add, that I think is funny about this conversation, is that personally I've always felt that my personal distortions leaned more towards wisdom than love. That's why, upon realization that love was the way, I've gotten more and more gung-ho. But again, just my personal perspective, I've probably just depolarized myself to the green-ray with all my martyrdom.
What I find funny about this conversation, is that I feel we could both die and move on from these planes and still see the same things differently.
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-21-2016
True, we should probably just agree to disagree about our differences in how we see the archetype.
Fun thoughts though!
RE: Courting the maiden - ricdaw - 05-26-2016
A remarkable conversation. Thank you for sharing it.
In the conversation about courtship vs. plunder, and the various analogies spun off these, there is an objectification of the two female figures. At one level this works, as it represents the choice of polarity. The two females being about HOW you put the deep mind to work; for self or for other.
Bring4th_Jade wrote:
“[H]ow do you see the transformation? What are you "giving up" in terms of which principle use of the mind are you letting go of? Because to me that is the main concept of the archetype. * * * * This is about aligning your will with the will of the Creator, which is your will anyway - another paradox, but resolvable. And it's about consciously, constantly letting go of any attitude towards others that their resources are yours to use. Do you look for ways which you are viewing others as just resources, and reframing your intentions when you do? Because then you are using the transformation of the mind.”
But I see another kind of transformation in the card.
That male figure has closed eyes. In a row of “mind” cards, where even the Unconscious has open eyes (albeit veiled), this is a telling clue to me. How does mind/consciousness NOT be aware (see)?
I would expect the male figure to have open eyes, if he is making a choice between the two females. Open eyes being consciously looking at and evaluating the two possibilities.
But what if the transformation (at the deeper level) is not about choosing between the two female figures at all. Isn’t there another way expressed in this card? The male figure closes his eyes. No longer captivated by the apparent 3d choice of how to use the mind, the male abdicates the conscious (open eyed) choice to a deeper level of the male’s own being. The card is not, which will I choose? But, what is the longing waiting for me to give it form and life and action and purpose?
Do I choose the field, or does grass choose me?
Perhaps the transformation of the mind (at one level) is about the surrender to the deeper self?
The Magician consciously wills, draws forth from the receptive High Priestess.
The Emperor observes/experiences, from the possibilities of the Empress.
These are paired cards. Active and Passive.
But the transformation card, the Lovers card, is not paired. The only action is recursive. That male figure is looking within . . .
Perhaps the choice and the transformation is to abandon the concept, so apparent in the other cards, that “I” am the actor and in control. It is to surrender apparent control to the deep mind itself. To discover not what “I” want to do, but to hear the calling, the longing, from deep within that seeks to manifest THROUGH me.
Perhaps the card shows that the worldly competition for the male’s attention from these two female figures is actually the very distraction that needs to be abandoned. What must be given up is the very idea that “I” am here . . . for me.
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-26-2016
I think a fruitful exploration would be discussing why it's mostly the men who have a problem with the analogy.
Is this indicative of the struggle of the conscious mind in the mind cycle, which struggles with the idea of surrendering itself to the subconscious mind? That tangle...
I think you are right, Ricdaw, in most of your analysis. However, the Transformation card is paired with the Great Way, which is the active card. Think of the Chariot as a locomotive stopped at a fork, and "releasing one of the hands of the maidens" as "lifting up one of the impeding cross-bars", which allows the train to continue going along the path. Or, at least, that's how I conceptualize it. Neither path is accessible until a choice between the two is made.
The significator of the spirit is the two 'lovers' linked, and "walking towards the sun" as Ra describes it, so it is this action that allows the manifestation of spirit into 3rd density, the act of beginning to pierce the veil by linking up with your subconscious.
RE: Courting the maiden - YinYang - 05-27-2016
(05-26-2016, 09:51 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: I think a fruitful exploration would be discussing why it's mostly the men who have a problem with the analogy.
Ha-ha-ha! I was wondering the same thing...
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-27-2016
I actually think I know why, but I haven't articulated it properly. In one of the Q'uo sessions I linked, a question is asked at the end about why pornography addictions are so prevalent, and Q'uo mentions advertisements - advertisements that constantly tell men that women are out of their reach until they change something about themselves (something that can be bought obviously). I think getting this message your whole life will definitely distort this analogy. And, of course, most modern media stories/movies/TV shows have this distorted form of the archetype as well. Which is why I think it's so valuable to have this discussion, in an attempt to undistort the analogy, because it is about discerning the difference between "accepting" love and "manipulative" love.
RE: Courting the maiden - ricdaw - 05-27-2016
(05-26-2016, 09:51 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: Transformation card is paired with the Great Way, which is the active card. Think of the Chariot as a locomotive stopped at a fork, and "releasing one of the hands of the maidens" as "lifting up one of the impeding cross-bars", which allows the train to continue going along the path. Or, at least, that's how I conceptualize it. Neither path is accessible until a choice between the two is made.
How does the choice posed by the Transformation card play out in the Chariot then? Can you describe the differences between the two paths for that locomotive?
RE: the topic of men. I will not approach that with a 10 foot pole!
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-27-2016
In the Lovers card, the three players stand atop a triangle which represents the divergence of the "two paths", the fork in the railway. The man must let go of one of the hands of the females so that he is able to move forward, i.e. activate his Chariot, "One may also see the Way of the Mind as showing the kingdom or fruits of appropriate travel through the mind in that the mind continues to move as majestically through the material it conceives of as a chariot drawn by royal lions or steeds."
The Chariot is the "fruits of appropriate travel through the mind" i.e. proper, dedicated courting to whichever maiden you choose after proper distillation of catalyst/experience. If you choose the STO maiden, you are activating your Great Way in service to others, and your day-to-day is basically effortless for a time, because the mind "move[s] as majestically through the material it conceives of as a chariot drawn by royal lions or steeds." If you choose the STS maiden, you will be presented with an more-or-less effortless experience involving moving you closer to being polarized negatively, and continue to see others are resources for your pleasure.
The best way I can conceptualize/describe the "Great Way" is when you feel you have "done something right" and things are "activated" for a while. To "activate" the great way, one must use the transformation. This happens slowly, unconsciously, but can happen at lightning speed when one is consciously using the catalyst. But you can't make any movement forward until you release one of the hands of the maidens, abandoning any attachment to the other path. So you're either riding majestically on the love for other selves, or you're riding majestically upon the power to use the other selves.
The "steeds" have one bended knee, which Ra says shows that there are times when the Great Way is "resting" and times when it is active. I think the STS path is going to be more about forcing a transformation to activate the Great Way and the STO path is about allowing a transformation to take place. The veil is lifted more thoroughly on the right side, showing the "great treasures of the protracted courtship" and "That which is magical in the negative experience is much longer coming, shall we say, in the third density."
RE: Courting the maiden - Night Owl - 05-28-2016
Since Ricdaw's quote was actually a question asked to me I'll simply say he has answered exactly my thoughts in a way I would not have succeeded to explain properly. What I give up is exactly that which he has explained.
Why do men have a problem with this analogy? Probably because the male energy is the exploration of the conscious. If there is one lesson the experience of the conscious has to offer is that one can reach it's great way when one surrenders consciously(active), not unconsciously(passive) to it's intuition. Courting is an unconscious behavior relating to one's own need and desires. You said courting is not done out of need but I think you seperate what one needs and what one wants too easily. I think you applied the active/passive duality to the wrong part of the process. I think when one wants to court everybody, it is because one needs a positive reflection back to them. In short, if you actively seek to please everyone, you actually want to be pleased by their reflection. And this is something that can shadow the truth at a certain point.
The visual aspect of the card is clear to me. This was never a debate plundering vs courting. It is about knowing deep inside that they are both not the great way, there is a greater one. That's why the male closes his eyes to follow actively it's intuition rather than seeking it outward(passively) as ricdaw described. The choice of the two females is a passive distraction of what is actively going on inside.
If I follow your logic, you are telling me that the way you resonated with this analogy implies that you used to consider the ressources of your deep mind and others as prostitutes that were yours to plunder as you like? And that you came to transform by giving up that idea to find a desire to court others into your service just like it is for the unconscious mind? I personally don't think I have ever considered my intuition as something to be plundered. I also don't think categorizing the deep mind as a single duality will get one really far into understanding it. There is much more to it. Just like I wouldn't feel plundered by everyone that do not court me. Would you?
I asked you if courting was the greatest expression of your love and you said that it was and that you didn't know any other way. That to me is where we cannot relate to each other. I know and feel a greater love that doesn't go through courting. But it can only be learned through surrendering to the experience of separation. Experiences that I think happen when you surrender and have no expectations of positive/negative. Courting is an intention of projecting a positive outcome, like covering with a white blanket of love on every new thing that you meet. It is a positive intention, but it is not done in understanding, it is a mindless one. The best analogy I could do to explain this is the sun. The sun is a positive radiating entity that shines unconditonally. But do you think the way the sun loves you means the sun understands you?
When one releases any projection towards a desired outcome, experiences happen in different forms and are to be undertood as they truly are. That means seeing them as the ultimate complexity they bring to this universe and not as a simplistic concept, because at the source of things, the universe is ever complexifying not simplifying, and things should be loved for that, not for being the most simplistic versions of themselves. Seperation is to be understood and loved as separation not only as unity because it is the desire of separation that drives the foundation of this experience. I think that's what we're here for, loving in a way that the sun cannot do or provide. If one loves others like the sun loves everyone, one is actually not loving at the full capacity that it's m/b/s allows him/her to. Loving everything as unity in a seperate environnement is dismissing the actual gift that is provided by this experience. This means that when falling in love makes you want to take the burdens out of your loved ones it is good to know that there is much greater love to be found in catalyst than simply get off the weight on their shoulders if you also love what they live, fight and die for. If you truly love them, you would honor their reasons for being distorted and being alive. Ra imply in different ways that the real love has nothing to do with the kind of love we describe here on earth when thinking of mating relationship. And it seems especially important that I insert that here because seeing how you describe each archetype, especially the fool, I feel that you have a bias towards seeing each archetype through the lens of mating relationships. No offense meant by that. Not that there is something wrong with that or that the analogies coming out of this reflection are wrong but they do not cover the range they are intended to cover. The archetypes are a template of consciousness that goes well beyond 3D. I would ask then this: do you study the archetypes in hopes of better understanding others or do you study them to understand yourself? If the study is not done in a way that seeks to apply their concepts to everything that is part of this experience, tell me how is it useful?
I would not be able to apply the courting analogy to me just as I would not be able to apply it to a lot of people I know. Maybe you can relate your self to it. If mating relationship is a big part of your experiences as a self than it would make perfect sense that you resonate with the analogy in terms of experience. But if you want to be able to apply it to others, there needs to be some letting go of seeing it through your own experiences and instead you should explore them as experiences that are not your own. How would you expect someone who cannot even court to go through the transformation of the mind? Do you think this transformation of the mind to be only accessible to those whose courting abilities are strong enough?
I think the big differences between the different analogies that have been brought up in the thread is that some have been specifically crafted to work with a desired outcome that courting is a working analogy. The opposites were simply a meant to show that it is possible to bring forth many anomalies where it is impossible to apply the concept as broadly as intended at first. It is possible to discuss endless different scenarios where one will act accordingly to his/her heart or his/her mind, but the idea is simply that if it is not possible to apply the concept as a whole, we are no longer discussing how to build a well working representation of the archetype. It is not about trying to make it work or not work. It's about what would be the best way to simplify this concept for someone with no experience of the tarot. How would you explain that to your grandmother who doesn't do a lot of courting anymore or to someone whose culture forces marriages and involves no courting between the two partners?
An other thing I'd want to cover is what you said about advertisement and pornography. I think there is something much more effective and powerful at doing exactly what you describe and it is much more accessible and powerful. That is facebook. I think the difference between the two is that in the case of pornography, I think most users are well aware that they are simply fantasizing and I seriously doubt that most people would want that to actually mannifest. I know some do but there are extremes to every possible scenarios. It is possible that it distorts people's view of sexuality but sexuality is only happening with one other person or one other person at a time relatively speaking unless one regularly participates in orgies. On the other hand facebook is distorting every real relationships with real people they know in real life. Facebook bring out and entertain the worst of humanity's reflection. It seems normal to me it just happens to distort people's self worth and mating process.
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-28-2016
Quote:The sun is a positive radiating entity that shines unconditonally. But do you think the way the sun loves you means the sun understands you?
I guess I thought the goal was the radiate like the Sun (Significator of Spirit). I think the Sun is a being far greater than we can even imagine, and yes, that it loves and understands me. We are its sub-logoi!
Do you not see that within the nuance of courting, there is the extended act of "getting to know one another"? I mean, that's the whole point... treat others as if you are getting to know them so that you can love them properly.
Quote:The visual aspect of the card is clear to me. This was never a debate plundering vs courting. It is about knowing deep inside that they are both not the great way, there is a greater one. That's why the male closes his eyes to follow actively it's intuition rather than seeking it outward(passively) as ricdaw described. The choice of the two females is a passive distraction of what is actively going on inside.
But, the Transformation of the Mind is about getting to the "greater" path through the "lesser paths". You talk about how it isn't about polarity but it's about "surrendering to the experience of separation." ?? How is that different than "polarity"? The Transformation of the Mind is about polarity, service to others vs. service to self. I can't fathom how it would be otherwise. It is so specifically not about being "balanced" between the two paths because that means you aren't having a Transformation of the Mind. That's where we disagree. Within the context of the Transformation of the Mind, the "greatest path" is which ever path you invest your effort into, within the spectrum of polarity/separation. You have to choose one over the other to use the transformation.
Quote:If I follow your logic, you are telling me that the way you resonated with this analogy implies that you used to consider the ressources of your deep mind and others as prostitutes that were yours to plunder as you like? And that you came to transform by giving up that idea to find a desire to court others into your service just like it is for the unconscious mind? I personally don't think I have ever considered my intuition as something to be plundered. I also don't think categorizing the deep mind as a single duality will get one really far into understanding it. There is much more to it. Just like I wouldn't feel plundered by everyone that do not court me. Would you?
It's a spectrum. I grew up as a martyr and I did use my own resources as a "badly used prostitute" because that was what was often demanded from those around me. I can see what the analogy means. It means, I put demands upon myself without compassion for myself. If I behaved how I perceived to be poorly or like I was letting people down, I was hard on myself. When someone asked for my time/energy, I gave it without hesitation and care to my own well-being. When really, all I needed was -someone- (myself) to reassure me and place value upon myself, not just for how others and I could constantly have access to my resources to use on a whim. Sometimes, I don't feel like serving, and that's okay. I've learned to see myself as an ally, and a co-creator and not a victim who is plundered. "Service to others leads to service to self"... eventually. And with this experience of courting myself, I've becoming "greater", i.e. more crystallized and able to distill more love/light into the collective.
I also extend this analogy to just about everything I buy. How are we spending our money? Are we going to McDonald's and Wal-Mart, giving our energy (money) to entities that have shown obvious disregard for the resources of others? Or are we eating out at restaurants owned by local people, spending the few extra dollars to buy our groceries and household items at establishments that are not such obvious "resource rapers", just by obvious comparison? Are we driving a giant gas-guzzler when we can afford something with more economical mileage? These are issues that arise every day, resources that we often plunder without thought.
If it's hard for you to conceptualize how you use your resources or the resources of others in a negative way, then no, I don't think you are using the transformation. I can look around my room and see a dozen things that I am using as "resources" and am not properly connected with, and as I take the time to acknowledge ways that I am using things without full acknowledgement of their sentience and free will, I use the Transformation. Of course, this takes honest judgement of the self without any negative judgement or guilt as retaliation for what one perceives as a possible "failure".
Quote:If you truly love them, you would honor their reasons for being distorted and being alive.
Q'uo very recently said that the point of distortion is not to suffer it. Ra also says that we should feed the starving entity. Why would I let someone I love languish without comfort? It just seems implausible to me. But maybe I just don't truly understand love...
Quote:Ra imply in different ways that the real love has nothing to do with the kind of love we describe here on earth when thinking of mating relationship. And it seems especially important that I insert that here because seeing how you describe each archetype, especially the fool, I feel that you have a bias towards seeing each archetype through the lens of mating relationships.
Quote:84.22 Questioner: Before the veil, were there— Let me put it this way: Did the Logos, or did most Logoi plan before the veil to create a system of random sexual activity or specific pairing of entities for periods of time, or did they have an objective in this respect?
Ra: I am Ra. This shall be the last full query of this working.
The harvest from the previous creation was that which included the male and female mind/body/spirit. It was the intention of the original Logoi that entities mate with one another in any fashion which caused a greater polarization. It was determined, after observation of the process of many Logoi, that polarization increased many fold if the mating were not indiscriminate. Consequent Logoi thusly preserved a bias towards the mated relationship which is more characteristic of more disciplined personalities and of what you may call higher densities. The free will of each entity, however, was always paramount and a bias only could be offered.
This is not my bias. This is not my analogy. If you think it is wrong, you are disagreeing with the Law of One and Ra. That is entirely fine and each seeker should take what resonates and leave the rest, obviously. It just seems unnecessary then to repeatedly come into this thread to tell me that I'm wrong when I'm interpreting with the bias I was taught to interpret the material with.
I would be happy to see any quotes you have where Ra implies that 3rd density entities don't experience love through mated pairing.
I would also be happy to hear any other analogies or over-arching concepts of how the archetypes work without using any sexual/mated pairing analogies, although I understand if you don't have any because that sounds extremely tedious.
Here is another quote, that supports that Ra's third density experience also followed this bias towards mating pairing:
Quote:88.14 Questioner: Was the concept given to— let me ask— you say it originated there… was this concept devised for a training tool for those inhabiting Venus at that time or was it devised by those of Venus as a training tool for those of Earth?
Ra: I am Ra. The tarot was devised by the third-density population of Venus a great measure of your space/time in your past. As we have noted the third-density experience of those of Venus dealt far more deeply and harmoniously with what you would call relationships with other-selves, sexual energy transfer work, and philosophical or metaphysical research. The product of many, many generations of work upon what we conceived to be the archetypical mind produced the tarot which was used by our peoples as a training aid in developing the magical personality.
But it's likely that sexual/relationship stuff has no real deeper meaning, right?
Quote:How would you expect someone who cannot even court to go through the transformation of the mind? Do you think this transformation of the mind to be only accessible to those whose courting abilities are strong enough?
No... I'm not saying it's about literal courting, either. But I think one needs to understand what love, and affection, and devotion, and compassion feel like. These are these feelings that the Transformation of the Mind is talking about cultivating. Like when you see a puppy. You're not spraying yourself with cologne and practicing pick-up lines, you just get down on your knees and scrunch its face, and it licks you back and showers you with pure healing love. True, not everyone likes that sort of thing, but as 4D moves in those people are moving out and heading to another planet anyway. So I'm happy to let people have their separation, but I will continue to attempt to radiate love and unity like the sun, because I feel motivated to help with the transition.
And I agree about Facebook, I guess I just see Facebook as a giant advertising platform. People use it to advertise themselves, mainly! I don't think it's such an inherently negative thing, but if that's one of your main social interactions with others as a group (as it is for most people), I can definitely see how it can distort perceptions.
RE: Courting the maiden - Night Owl - 05-29-2016
Quote:Do you not see that within the nuance of courting, there is the extended act of "getting to know one another"? I mean, that's the whole point... treat others as if you are getting to know them so that you can love them properly.
I never said otherwise. What I think is that it's like loving a colony of ants by looking at them. Even if you take the time to understand their system and see them work, you don't really get to know them personally with what they experience and go through. It's seems actually impossible to think one can actually get to know them to be honest. I do think the sun is aware of the experience we go through on earth but I do not think the sun can know us personally and emotionally like we could not do the same with ants. The purpose of this is simply to be aware that loving unconditionally something that is very conditional to a particular experience without actually going through how it feels to be experienced is not as unconditional as it seems. I just hope I say this right. It is not an attack on radiating love like the sun.
Quote:But, the Transformation of the Mind is about getting to the "greater" path through the "lesser paths". You talk about how it isn't about polarity but it's about "surrendering to the experience of separation." ?? How is that different than "polarity"? The Transformation of the Mind is about polarity, service to others vs. service to self. I can't fathom how it would be otherwise. It is so specifically not about being "balanced" between the two paths because that means you aren't having a Transformation of the Mind. That's where we disagree. Within the context of the Transformation of the Mind, the "greatest path" is which ever path you invest your effort into, within the spectrum of polarity/separation. You have to choose one over the other to use the transformation.
I've never said it isn't about polarity. I've specifically said I've agreed it is a polarised relationship. What I said is that the positive way of doing it doesn't have courting as it's only mean of expression.
Quote:If it's hard for you to conceptualize how you use your resources or the resources of others in a negative way, then no, I don't think you are using the transformation. I can look around my room and see a dozen things that I am using as "resources" and am not properly connected with, and as I take the time to acknowledge ways that I am using things without full acknowledgement of their sentience and free will, I use the Transformation. Of course, this takes honest judgement of the self without any negative judgement or guilt as retaliation for what one perceives as a possible "failure".
It is not hard for me to conceptualize that. I think it is more about how one perceive that. If you think you are plundering some ressources of your life, it seems just likely that you will experience more negative polarity from them than one who has a different relationship with the same things.
Quote:Q'uo very recently said that the point of distortion is not to suffer it. Ra also says that we should feed the starving entity. Why would I let someone I love languish without comfort? It just seems implausible to me. But maybe I just don't truly understand love...
I have already said that I already know that I would do the right thing about this one. I have not been challenged by any analogies in this thread where I would have been confused as to what would be the positive and negative choice to do. I am discussing the specifics of different situations which are not my own.
Quote:This is not my bias. This is not my analogy. If you think it is wrong, you are disagreeing with the Law of One and Ra. That is entirely fine and each seeker should take what resonates and leave the rest, obviously. It just seems unnecessary then to repeatedly come into this thread to tell me that I'm wrong when I'm interpreting with the bias I was taught to interpret the material with.
I would be happy to see any quotes you have where Ra implies that 3rd density entities don't experience love through mated pairing.
I would also be happy to hear any other analogies or over-arching concepts of how the archetypes work without using any sexual/mated pairing analogies, although I understand if you don't have any because that sounds extremely tedious.
I have already also said like 5 times that I don't imply you are wrong or that the analogy is false. Again what I say is that this particular analogy represent a certain focus not the whole archetype. It is not without reason that Ra does not speak of courting when first mentioning the archetype but mention it when asked to go deeper. Ra uses specific experience to describe the principle and uses an analogy in which it is fitting. What I say is only that it is not fitting everywhere.
I also don't dismiss mated pairing to be an important part of the experience of this octave. I know very well that everything experience a duality of opposite energies. What I say is that it is not what defines the archetype it is was is experienced through it. It seems just important to differenciate both.
I'm also not a big fan of quoting I must admit. I sometimes find if I need quotes to support a point then I probably don't need to express it anyway. But there are many moments where Ra says that the desire of the creator is to know itself and the importance of finding love and acceptance in the moment. I'll give you a few. But what I mainly mean by them is that you can find the love in the way you react to catalyst but unless you also see the love in the moment in the already present state before even interacting with it is done without understanding and therefore it becomes a very personal experience. It is not wrong either. I mainly just preach the personal side of it and the relativity of each experience.
Quote:The nature of the vibratory patterns of your universe is dependent upon the configurations placed upon the original material or light by the focus or Love using Its intelligent energy to create a certain pattern of illusions or densities in order to satisfy Its own intelligent estimate of a method of knowing Itself. Thus the colors, as you call them, are as strait, or narrow, or necessary as is possible to express, given the will of Love.
Quote:The subjective acceptance of that which is at the moment and the finding of love within that moment is the greater freedom.
Quote:The nature of the vibratory patterns of your universe is dependent upon the configurations placed upon the original material or light by the focus or Love using Its intelligent energy to create a certain pattern of illusions or densities in order to satisfy Its own intelligent estimate of a method of knowing Itself. Thus the colors, as you call them, are as strait, or narrow, or necessary as is possible to express, given the will of Love.
Quote:However, the distortion of free will causes the social memory complex to appear as a possibility at a certain stage of evolution of mind. The purpose, or consideration which causes entities to form such complexes, of these social memory complexes, is a very simple extension of the basic distortion towards the Creator’s knowing of Itself, for when a group of mind/body/spirits become able to form a social memory complex, all experience of each entity is available to the whole of the complex. Thus the Creator knows more of Its creation in each entity partaking of this communion of entities.
Quote:No... I'm not saying it's about literal courting, either. But I think one needs to understand what love, and affection, and devotion, and compassion feel like. These are these feelings that the Transformation of the Mind is talking about cultivating. Like when you see a puppy. You're not spraying yourself with cologne and practicing pick-up lines, you just get down on your knees and scrunch its face, and it licks you back and showers you with pure healing love. True, not everyone likes that sort of thing, but as 4D moves in those people are moving out and heading to another planet anyway. So I'm happy to let people have their separation, but I will continue to attempt to radiate love and unity like the sun, because I feel motivated to help with the transition.
I guess I just wouldn't spare those people without getting to know them really and send them elsewhere. I desire that everything experience what it desires, even more than I wish to experience anything in particular.
Quote:And I agree about Facebook, I guess I just see Facebook as a giant advertising platform. People use it to advertise themselves, mainly! I don't think it's such an inherently negative thing, but if that's one of your main social interactions with others as a group (as it is for most people), I can definitely see how it can distort perceptions.
No it is not my main social interacion. I don't really use it actually. I just witness how it is being used.
I don't understand how I get such a negative feedback from you like you feel attacked or something but I am probably just failing at expressing what I mean. Sorry that you feel bothered by my words. I put no such intent while writing them. I simply answered questioned that were directed to me when the thread was revived. I simply find a need for expension in ideas about the archetype but maybe you are more interested in discussing courting. If that is the case just don't think I reject your point. I totally understand what you mean when you say that you court everything. I just see this as being your experience of it and having a different experience of it. I am probably one of those people which wouldn't want to be a dog that gets it's face scrunched.
Anyway the way I see it is that if I started loving the way you do I would probably lose everything I cherish in my life just as you would lose everything that you cherish in your life if you started loving like I do. We love in infinite ways and we explore different focus of love to help the creator to know itself and each of our ways has the purpose to help our personal path towards this direction.
RE: Courting the maiden - YinYang - 05-29-2016
Night Owl Wrote:I do think the sun is aware of the experience we go through on earth but I do not think the sun can know us personally and emotionally like we could not do the same with ants.
Our sun, which is a sub-logos of a larger, quite powerful logos (according to Ra), is not in a veiled environment, like we are. Consider that Ra knew everything about our 3rd density, and they weren't even on logos level. Don could ask about any entity, past or present, and they knew it all about that entity, along with all other happenings on the planet, seen and unseen. I think our logos knows us intimately, all our thoughts, distortions, struggles, hopes, polarisation, blockages, past incarnations, etc. It's not veiled, we are. Only in 3rd density do this sensation or perception of separation and "impersonalness", hold sway.
As for the earthly concept of marriage, I'm not a fan. The way I read Ra's "mating were not indiscriminate", for me, has nothing to do with the concept of marriage as we have it on earth. For me it has to do with love, friendship, affection and familiarity, rather than having sex with someone you just met. I have a vague remembrance, you can't even call it a remembrance, more of a sensation, that in higher densities it was more of a community affair, and not a "mated for life" situation. I'm cognisant of the fact that this bias of mine could very easily have been influenced by my exposure to unhappy marriages all my life, but I think I lean towards Alan Watts' view on this: "The more a thing tends to be permanent, the more it tends to be lifeless.” The institution of marriage removes spontaneity.
On a slightly unrelated note, Night Owl, your "ant colony" comment reminded me of one of our most famous past poets, Eugene Marais, who was quite a psychic, and unfortunately also addicted to morphine, who wrote a book "Die siel van die mier" (the soul of the ant). He was also a medical doctor, which gave him unrestricted access to morphine, but he had a very strong bond with nature, where he spend most of his time in "mesmerisation", as he called it. He also loved hypnotising people and animals, mostly baboons. He once hypnotised a paralysed woman, and afterwards she could walk. There's a movie about his life, "Die Wonderwerker" (The miracle worker). He said "the bible teaches us to go to the ant and become wise" (Proverbs 6:6), and from observing ants he spoke of unity, and how humans can also function as a "single unit", which would be what Ra calls a social memory complex "becoming able to grasp the needle and point the compass in one direction". He must have been a wanderer, in the end he couldn't get access to morphine and killed himself with a shotgun...off topic...
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-29-2016
Quote:I never said otherwise. What I think is that it's like loving a colony of ants by looking at them. Even if you take the time to understand their system and see them work, you don't really get to know them personally with what they experience and go through. It's seems actually impossible to think one can actually get to know them to be honest. I do think the sun is aware of the experience we go through on earth but I do not think the sun can know us personally and emotionally like we could not do the same with ants. The purpose of this is simply to be aware that loving unconditionally something that is very conditional to a particular experience without actually going through how it feels to be experienced is not as unconditional as it seems. I just hope I say this right. It is not an attack on radiating love like the sun.
So you just assume that we can't understand ants, so there's no reason to go through any effort to try to understand then? And it's not "unconditional" love that we are seeking, it's "universal", much like the Sun's radiation. Anyway, YinYang made the point I wanted to about the Sun not being veiled. I don't think it's impossible to communicate or get to know ants, or anything. I am the ant. The ant is not outside of me and without my reach.
Quote:I have already also said like 5 times that I don't imply you are wrong or that the analogy is false. Again what I say is that this particular analogy represent a certain focus not the whole archetype. It is not without reason that Ra does not speak of courting when first mentioning the archetype but mention it when asked to go deeper. Ra uses specific experience to describe the principle and uses an analogy in which it is fitting. What I say is only that it is not fitting everywhere.
It just seems like throwing around accusations like "You seem biased by the mated pair" and "Ra says Love isn't anything like 3D relationships" and "This isn't about the two paths it's about the greater path" is telling me that I'm wrong.
Are you saying you can extrapolate everything Ra wanted to teach from the sentence, "As you observe Archetype Six you may see the student of the mysteries being transformed by the need to choose betwixt the light and the dark in mind."?
Ra says the first step in learning the archetypes is to look at the cards, and decide what each of the symbols mean. Because this, as the archetypes are as a whole, is a lesson in "courting the maiden" and learning how to properly use our subconscious, intuitive resources. We are not born knowing how to do this, and likely most of us have never been taught before we began teaching ourselves. It's a "protracted" process.
Quote:I'm also not a big fan of quoting I must admit. I sometimes find if I need quotes to support a point then I probably don't need to express it anyway. But there are many moments where Ra says that the desire of the creator is to know itself and the importance of finding love and acceptance in the moment. I'll give you a few. But what I mainly mean by them is that you can find the love in the way you react to catalyst but unless you also see the love in the moment in the already present state before even interacting with it is done without understanding and therefore it becomes a very personal experience. It is not wrong either. I mainly just preach the personal side of it and the relativity of each experience.
The man loves what he is courting. It is what he is courting that is reacting to him. If he treats it well, it gives him "great treasure gained by careful courtship" or "that which is rough, prostituted, and without great virtue".
It's okay for us to talk about the archetype differently, but you can't totally change the gestalts of energy as I describe them. The conscious mind doesn't court because it doesn't see love, the conscious mind courts because it DOES see love in everything. Or, I guess, it feels love in everything, because his eyes are closed.
Quote:I guess I just wouldn't spare those people without getting to know them really and send them elsewhere. I desire that everything experience what it desires, even more than I wish to experience anything in particular.
Well, I guess I'm just being practical because the clock has ticked and another reality has already been prepared for the masses that haven't harvested. From those who are awakening, I get the feeling that most people don't want to repeat the major cycle and would rather harvest in this lifetime if they had the chance, so I suspect the same is for those who are sleeping or on the brink of waking up. There are not many of them out there who will make it, but they also need the opportunity to escape the cycles if they please. Mind you, I'm not saying the cycle is something to be escaped by any means, I'll happily reincarnate into 3rd density again, but it actually isn't until one is polarized that the switch flips and they actually want to stay.
Quote:I don't understand how I get such a negative feedback from you like you feel attacked or something but I am probably just failing at expressing what I mean. Sorry that you feel bothered by my words. I put no such intent while writing them. I simply answered questioned that were directed to me when the thread was revived. I simply find a need for expension in ideas about the archetype but maybe you are more interested in discussing courting. If that is the case just don't think I reject your point. I totally understand what you mean when you say that you court everything. I just see this as being your experience of it and having a different experience of it. I am probably one of those people which wouldn't want to be a dog that gets it's face scrunched.
I apologize if my tone is harsh, sometimes when discussing concepts like these in a "high wisdom" setting I lose my softness. I'm trying to articulate these concepts without emotional superfluity. However, I see passive aggressive digs from you as well, such as, "Maybe you are more interested in discussing courting" - doesn't seem like it's applying to the conversation, sounds more like a judgement against me. I'm interested in discussing the archetype in the context of the Ra teachings, so yeah, I'm interested in talking about courting, and getting it to a point where it's not as distorted so that people like you can understand the archetype in the context of the whole system.
I'm just frustrated because you are basically asking me to reinvent the wheel without offering any of your own reinvention. You say this isn't "entirely right", this doesn't resonate with you, this is biased, but I've still yet to see where you even actually grasp entirely what I'm trying to get at. It's just frustrating for you to reject the symbology of the archetypes, and therefore attempt to dismantle what I believe is a well thought out and understood treatment of what this archetype means. You can keep saying it doesn't resonate with you but it just feels like to me you're trying to justify not using the transformation.
Quote:Anyway the way I see it is that if I started loving the way you do I would probably lose everything I cherish in my life just as you would lose everything that you cherish in your life if you started loving like I do. We love in infinite ways and we explore different focus of love to help the creator to know itself and each of our ways has the purpose to help our personal path towards this direction.
"If you love something, set it free"?
Yes, the transformation is about release. I let go of things I love quite often because I know it's for the "greater good". That's why his arms are crossed in sacrifice. This is the whole point of the card.
RE: Courting the maiden - YinYang - 05-29-2016
Night Owl\ Wrote:Anyway the way I see it is that if I started loving the way you do I would probably lose everything I cherish in my life just as you would lose everything that you cherish in your life if you started loving like I do.
This indicates possession, and I believe there is no possession or ownership in love. I also feel that this is one of the primary lessons about love that 3rd density entities are learning now, as far as I can see, and suffering terribly in the process.
"Ah, the knowledge of impermanence
that haunts our days
is their very fragrance."
- Rainer Maria Rilke
You set yourself free as well, when you set that which you love free. It's the holding on and the fear of losing which causes us suffering.
Total surrender to the moment and the 'blink of an eye' you have together anyway, no control, no guarantees. Loss is also an illusion.
RE: Courting the maiden - AnthroHeart - 05-29-2016
Thank you Yin/Yang. I never knew our Logos was quite powerful, except that what is manifest is just a small portion of the whole Logos, which resides with Creator.
RE: Courting the maiden - YinYang - 05-29-2016
You're welcome, Gem, here you go:
Quote:Questioner: Let’s take as an example the planet that we are on now and tell
me how much of the creation was created by the same Logos that created
this planet?
Ra: I am Ra. This planetary Logos is a strong Logos creating approximately
250 billion of your star systems for Its creation. The, shall we say, laws or
physical ways of this creation will remain, therefore, constant.
RE: Courting the maiden - Minyatur - 05-29-2016
Quo - February 19, 2011 Wrote: Wrote:The vibration of love is the vibration upon which the planets turn in their courses, the suns rotate in the galaxies ever so slowly to your eyes [as they] climb the heavens. You are a spark of that one original Thought. Advancement in any density can be measured by how near the vibration of your consciousness matches the vibration of the one infinite Creator.
The key to this work is this: the consciousness that you share with all others who are self-aware is one. It is the consciousness of the Creator. It is the consciousness of complete and unconditional love. It is not love as known to the poets who speak of romance. It is not the love of brother for brother. It is not the love that is sentimentalized in valentines tied up with ribbons, gifted with pretty gems. This is a love that creates and destroys.
Hatonn - April 14, 1985 Wrote: Wrote:When you move past the ordinary descriptions of love, you find a concept which becomes difficult to describe in words and most attractive to seek in experience. Beyond that which you know as romantic love or the love of brothers and sisters, parents and children, teacher and student, there is a greater love, or shall we say, greater and greater perceptions and experiences of that called love. Indeed, my friends, as you pursue the path of seeking what you call truth, or the nature of your reality, you will find that within each portion of it is embedded a creative force which is described in many ways by many ways by those who discover it within your physics.
Love is seen as a focus through which the will of the Creator moves and makes that which is made. Love, then, in this description, is seen as a force which creates and creates and creates, that the one Creator in many portions might seek Itself, might then experience Itself.
Latwii - January 12, 1974 Wrote: Wrote:Love, my friends, is not what you think it is. The word in your language has a meaning that has various interpretations. But it is none of these things. We use the word when we speak to you, because it is as close as we can come to the concept, using your language. Love, my friends, is that force which does all of the things that are done in the entire creation. All of the things, my friends, even those that you would interpret as being without love.
Hatonn - February 22, 1976 Wrote: Wrote:My friends, it is not easy to come to an understanding of what love is, for among your peoples love is already named by so many lesser emotions and states of mind—and none of these is love. Do not become lost in emotion, for love is not emotion, and emotional service is often a “human” service, and not the service of love.
Hatonn - June 21, 1981 Wrote: Wrote:The new understandings are always built upon the never changing original Thought which the Creator used to create all of the creation. This thought, my friends, as you know, is based on the concept of love.
Love is the moving force, the foundation upon which all is built.
Out of curiosity, after reading these quotes are you able to explain the transformation of the Mind with a focus upon Love that is not romanticized?
I've thought about an example of the transformation of the mind which I have yet to go along the transformation.
During one of my early psychedelic experiences, it occurred to me that I can always question myself about whether something I am about to do is "good" or "bad". And that to ask myself opens myself to care and love more, while to not ask myself is to be indifferent. Yet when asking myself, to go along what I get is polarizing and to ignore it is depolarizing (positively). The point of this being that no two moments are ever the same, and that while an action can be useful most of the times, the complexity of each moment calls that each moment should be pondered upon if I truly desire to care. To apply transformation of the mind upon this, would be after having gone back and forth with catalysts/experience of this nature, to make the choice to always ask myself, whether any of my actions are "good" or bad", however seemingly "good" or "bad" they can be. To also accept that I can be called to serve in ways which are not the manner I can prefer to serve, to learn to serve in a more selfless way depending upon what is required by other-self and not what I can see it as requiring. The transformation here would be to accept to always question myself before any of my acts, because that would be showing respect toward that which I interact with and allow me to move where I am needed more than where I desire to go.
I could see you being called to go to McDonald, unlike what you said. Why? Because something that has been plundered of it's resources could help having love poured into it for example. Could need someone loving to tangle with it in this present moment and create a link with it for future moments also. Can need someone to internalize parts of it's traumas to be either worked upon consciously or unconsciously depending on the person. Not saying that you should make a habit of doing this, just that to be truly loving is being open to serve in whatever ways you can be called to serve. Of course if you are unable to feel love for some things that are, then you won't be called to serve them because it will be out of the reach of what you can provide as service.
You seem to think that the transformation of the Mind is a one time happening process, to me it is a process with many individual paths with each many steps of their own. There is no right/wrong way to serve and like expressed in the quotes above, Love is that which both creates and destroys. Polarity is how you feel in regards to others about doing what it is that you do, as such any thing that you see as negative, can be a positive service provided if they can be done with positive intent. This Earth both gives and destroys as we humans require it to act with us, through the karma we build for ourselves, but I do not think any portion of it is ever done without a greater positive Love which transcends any of our ways of loving.
RE: Courting the maiden - Minyatur - 05-29-2016
Transformation of the Mind as I understand it :
Integrating a transformation of the mind, is allowing a new mental configuration to take place. This relates to something/anything in regards to how self interacts with itself and others.
This is done through the previous archetypes of the Mind where the mental configuration fluctuates about it's previous configuration, until it leads all the way up to the transformation where a choice betwixt the light and dark is made within the Mind and integrated as the new configuration. In short, the pathways of the mind are rebuilt.
Meditation has this purpose a lot, some speak of reaching a Gnosis state of mind where you can rebuild your pattern of thoughts by acknowleding them and making choices upon how you desire them. Psychedelic drugs do really help this process a lot, as they put deep into the state of Gnosis and this is why it is so much easier to let go of habits through using them. Example : Steve did shrooms and lost all desire of smoking cigarettes. Steve on the deeper state of mind made the choice that he desires to pay respect to his body and himself.
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-29-2016
I don't believe it's that I have a problem seeing love and not romanticizing the concept, it's that both of you seem to have a problem with unromanticizing the word courting, which is what I've been making attempts to do by discussing it in context between entities that are not sexualized. Yes, we are seeking the "Greater love" but AGAIN this is NOT what the Transformation of the Mind is about. The myriad of triangles in the card represent how the paths split, how polarity splits, how you can be 99+% STO OR 99+% STS. This only has meaning within this system of third density, but the spectrum is meant to be used because that is how electrical charges work: The stronger the polarity, the stronger the charge, the more power one has. It's possible that in your argument you are presenting that you do not desire this "power of polarity" (or Ra calls it the "gift of polarity") because you do not desire to affect change on others. That's fine. But the archetypes are about developing polarity and integrating the mind/body/spirit complex to affect positive change.
Quote:The transformation here would be to accept to always question myself before any of my acts, because that would be showing respect toward that which I interact with and allow me to move where I am needed more than where I desire to go.
I disagree. My interpretation of Ra is that we are supposed to act first, then balance it later.
Quote:Ra: The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.
And you say you decide what is "good" and "bad" but from what point do we determine the relativity of good and bad? Ra uses the romantic angle because it's a subjective signpost: How would you treat the one you love the most? Again, this is still a personally subjective signpost, because some people would chop up and eat the ones they love the most. But if you loved someone and you were trying to court her SO YOU COULD chop her up and eat her, how would you treat her? That is the point of the exercise of the romantic angle.
Quote:I could see you being called to go to McDonald, unlike what you said. Why? Because something that has been plundered of it's resources could help having love poured into it for example. Could need someone loving to tangle with it in this present moment and create a link with it for future moments also. Can need someone to internalize parts of it's traumas to be either worked upon consciously or unconsciously depending on the person. Not saying that you should make a habit of doing this, just that to be truly loving is being open to serve in whatever ways you can be called to serve. Of course if you are unable to feel love for some things that are, then you won't be called to serve them because it will be out of the reach of what you can provide as service.
See, to me, this is just justification to avoid the transformation. There is no secret that McDonald's cares more about profits than resources. I still love McDonald's and accept that there are those who use that system. However, knowing what I know, I am unable in good conscience to participate in that system to procure my food, especially when I have so many other choices of much more positive systems to choose to feed my energy into. This is how I see the transformation: What energies am I choosing to feed? Am I feeding the systems that support prostitution of resources, or am I feeding systems that court their resources and aren't just focused on money and profits, at least to the best of my ability to discern?
Sure, I might feel called to send love and light to McDonald's, but it's hard to fathom for me how buying a Big Mac would lead to any huge shift in polarization either way, really. But the Transformation is about letting go of the choices that hold you back, the ones that have no net value or even a slight net loss. I see your point but again, in the context of the transformation, it's justifying avoiding it. Of course the prostitute needs love too and healing, too. I'm just not giving her any of my money because I get her services elsewhere.
Quote:You seem to think that the transformation of the Mind is a one time happening process,
Would you point out where I implied this? I'm pretty sure my main point in one of my last posts to Night Owl is that the Transformation of the Mind is basically always available to be utilized, all the time. Life on planet Earth is all about procuring and using resources to sustain our own life, and we are inherently selfish about how we use them because we have been taught to be very concerned about survival.
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-29-2016
(05-29-2016, 01:11 PM)Minyatur Wrote: Transformation of the Mind as I understand it :
Integrating a transformation of the mind, is allowing a new mental configuration to take place. This relates to something/anything in regards to how self interacts with itself and others.
This is done through the previous archetypes of the Mind where the mental configuration fluctuates about it's previous configuration, until it leads all the way up to the transformation where a choice betwixt the light and dark is made within the Mind and integrated as the new configuration. In short, the pathways of the mind are rebuilt.
Meditation has this purpose a lot, some speak of reaching a Gnosis state of mind where you can rebuild your pattern of thoughts by acknowleding them and making choices upon how you desire them. Psychedelic drugs do really help this process a lot, as they put deep into the state of Gnosis and this is why it is so much easier to let go of habits through using them. Example : Steve did shrooms and lost all desire of smoking cigarettes. Steve on the deeper state of mind made the choice that he desires to pay respect to his body and himself.
I see how this describes the mechanics of how the archetype works, but how does this apply anything Ra said about the archetype after the "betwixt the light and dark" choice? It isn't just about creating new pathways in the mind about "anything", it's about abandoning one type of use of the pathways, deliberately. It's about "going forth to court" the resources of others. Ra chose those words for a reason, IMO.
Quote:Ra: In this image of Transformation of Mind, then, each of the females points the way it would go, but is not able to move, nor are the two female entities striving to do so. They are at rest. The conscious entity holds both and will turn itself one way or the other or, potentially, backwards and forwards, rocking first one way then the other and not achieving the transformation. In order for the Transformation of Mind to occur, one principle governing the use of the deep mind must be abandoned.
It is to be noted that the triangular shape formed by the shoulders and crossed elbows of consciousness is a shape to be associated with transformation. Indeed, you may see this shape echoed twice more in the image, each echo having its own riches to add to the impact of this complex of concepts.
RE: Courting the maiden - YinYang - 05-29-2016
Minyatur, I don't understand the motivation behind your post about what love is, with all the Quo etc. excerpts, when the archetype is about the distinction between love of self and love of others. It's like veering of into a discussion about what exactly direction is, when the topic under discussion is about the choice between East and West... of course love of self destroys.
RE: Courting the maiden - Night Owl - 05-29-2016
Well I guess my sun analogy sucked. It was not a point of whether it's conscious or not just that we as humans if we try to love as sun, we would be wasting the ressources we have to love as we can do. The thing is you say you acknowledge my point but then you always leave like your interpretation is the definition of the archetype. I just said it is a representation by a particular focus and it does not define the archetype still saying it is not wrong. That's my whole point there is no need to dismantle anything else I've said. My post was maybe too long but I had many posts to cover. But that was the only real point I made. You say you don't romantize the card but then you talk about the fool and it seems romanticized again. So do you honestly not romanticize it or do you just hope that your analogy will not be perceived as romanticized?
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-29-2016
I don't have a problem with the romanticization and I see its point, and subsequently Ra's point. The whole thing is indeed based around a sexual analogy for a reason. I'm trying to un-romanticize it, here, for you guys, trying my best, because you two seem to have a huge problem with it.
I guess I don't see "romance" as a negative concept, anyway. I see it as the "magical spell of love". I intended for my analogy to be perceived as romanticized but I did not intend for the fallout of misunderstanding of those who have never been in love.
RE: Courting the maiden - Jade - 05-29-2016
Quote:ro·mance
rōˈmans,ˈrōˌmans/
noun
1.
a feeling of excitement and mystery associated with love.
"in search of romance"
2.
a quality or feeling of mystery, excitement, and remoteness from everyday life.
"the beauty and romance of the night"
verb
verb: romance
1.
court; woo.
"the wealthy estate owner romanced her"
2.
another term for romanticize.
"to a certain degree I am romancing the past"