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+--- Thread: There isnt that much freedom it seems...and INFINITY (/showthread.php?tid=1460)
There isnt that much freedom it seems...and INFINITY - unity100 - 08-08-2010
We are told that, we have free will. That we can choose. That, there exists free will. Various philosophies and propositions exist to that extent.
Lets examine a rock. it is in the 1st consciousness of this octave. its free will, freedom of movement, manifestation, states that it can choose to be, are, what a rock can be.
Lets examine a single cellular organism. it is in the early 2nd consciousness. it can move about, manifest, choose states of being limited to a single cell organism. it cannot go more than this. the available set of choices to it, are defined.
Lets examine a late 2d organism. it moves about, it has various feelings, it can act socially, and make more choices. its choices are much broader.
Now a 3d entity. It is aware that there are other entities exist. the choices available to it increases.
A 4d entity is one that lives in an environment that thoughts reflect to become things. This effect is lower in early stages of 4d, and it increases to high level in late stages of 4d.
And when the entity moves to 5d, freedom increases even more. it can change its body to manifest as it wants, food can be created, light can be shaped.
by now i think we established a pattern :
The level of freedom and free will and choices increase as one goes higher in the octave and nears infinity.
Vice versa, finiteness, makes an entity lack free will and choice, proportional to the level of its finiteness. from rock, to 7d entity, there is a constant increase in freedom.
moreover, there are even more changes from octave to octave. back in the previous octave, there was the mover and the moved polarities.
can anyone now choose to be of mover polarity ? or the moved ? no. these polarities are now built in to manifestation, the archetypes of mind, body and spirit, and they cannot be totally separated from each other.
that means that, basically, the entities in this octave are much more free in various ways, but also, they are not free in some other ways ; regardless of how high you go in the octave, you cannot just choose to manifest the polarities and realities of the earlier octave in this octave, because, the fabric and rules of existence in this octave do not allow this.
thats, another limitation of free will and choices.
there is even a more curious conclusion ; even though freedom increases as one nears infinity, and, probably becomes totally infinite (with the rate it is going) at the point of infinity, infinity itself is not free ! because, infinity is infinity, and cannot choose to be anything other than infinity, if it remains as infinity. for infinity to have any choice, it must be finite. this, is impossible for infinity -> only its finite parts can choose, because, different states are only available to finites.
these philosophically limit the freedom and free will, and makes it not unbounded, and cannot be unbounded.
moreover, the way this octave is built, ie in graded steps, and in interactive cause->effect relationships as a functioning system makes it so that the available choices to an entity is limited and dependent on the set of possibilities its environment offers to it.
if we look at this light, then, various wisdom points come into light. i will use Ra's and yahweh's examples to illustrate these. tesla also can be used, or einstein actually.
now, in the history of this solar system, various 3d societies were offered various technological or spiritual boons. this, led maldek to be destroyed, mars become inhabitable, and earth to destabilize, (and maybe narrowly averted destruction) and innumerable other issues and troubles.
the corollary of the philosophical points above reflect in these cases as such :
what was given was beyond the set of freedom defined for 3d entities. hence, it created problems.
imagine putting a monkey in the control room of a nuclear reactor. or, a nuclear silo. it sounds absurd isnt it. it is. because, it shouldnt happen.
or, imagine giving shotguns, or the control of a crane to 4 year old kids. similarly, these shouldnt also happen.
there is also the idea that, when looked from the perspective of 7d totality, there isnt that much freedom because anyone's actions and choices changes things, and affects also others, making our choices and freedoms limited with all the entities manifesting in our octave. or maybe even beyond. but that is a separate, and lengthy topic it seems.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Peregrinus - 08-08-2010
I'm going to make a short reply to this at the moment because I am infinitely late for an appointment... Do you ever imagine "what if?" in your mind? This is what we are, the "what if?"s of the Creator's mind. One may try to change the imaginative sequence to as many possibilities as possible (forethought). This is the goal of the Creator, an infinite being creating infinite possibilities for infinite experiences. In this it will know the self infinity.
The only thing that ever stays exactly the same is that everything is always changing.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - unity100 - 08-08-2010
it doesnt seem to relate to free will.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Turtle - 08-08-2010
(08-08-2010, 10:58 AM)unity100 Wrote: these philosophically limit the freedom and free will, and makes it not unbounded, and cannot be unbounded.
What or who is ever truly unbounded? Infinity itself is the level of existence that is truly unbounded. I do not mean the Infinite Creator. To be an aware consciousness, you are already limited. Infinity itself "became aware" and realized it had infinite possibilities to explore...but it must downgrade it's awareness and freedom in order to experience any of those possibilities. Only when Infinite Creator or Infinite Consciousness decides to "rest" or "merge" back into it's true Infinite state of unity with all, does it finally transcend any and all limitations. It is then unaware of itself, and simply just exists.
Degrees of freedom are what we have to toy with. If your level of freedom of choice is even 90% unbounded/unrestricted by your ability to make that choice, then subjectively speaking your are "free enough" in my opinion. Free will DOES exist here, because it is free from direct influence and/or divine intervention as a general rule. That was the point of the veil.
We speak of free will...but free from what? If it is to be free from a certain restriction, then it can be called free will. If it is to be free from ALL restrictions, then having a will of your own at all, is the final restriction it would need to be freed from.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Questioner - 08-08-2010
I can't find the citation right now, so I'll share a paraphrase of a concept I came across the other day that made a great deal of sense to me. The message was something like this: "Physical reality and matter are made of up of divine Light slowed down and folded in on itself, perfectly expressing thoughts held at higher dimensions. It doesn't do you much good in your current situation to know all about how this works. Consensus physical reality is available for you to modify through your physical acts as the way to express your thoughts at your level. Later in your evolution the more metaphysical forms of creation will be more significant for you."
Along with that was this message from another source: "the mind that can bend a spoon can also start a fire, so purity of intent is important." In 3D, there is a delay between our thinking something and it becoming real, and we are typically challenged by getting more of what we don't want to confirm our decisions before they become manifest. This is the tricycle with training wheels of spiritual evolution.
For a kid who's just learning how to pedal, training wheels restrict their freedom. With less freedom to fall off, maybe the kid can have a more enjoyable time learning about the relationship between their pedaling and their motion. Later on the wheels will come off, pedaling will already be an innate habit, and attention can be paid to the finer points of how to lean into turns without wiping out. I think that 4D may be like that in terms of co-creating reality.
(08-08-2010, 11:48 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: Do you ever imagine "what if?" in your mind? This is what we are, the "what if?"s of the Creator's mind. One may try to change the imaginative sequence to as many possibilities as possible (forethought).
Yes, especially when I see carrie's posts that provide further explanation of what thoughts of the Creator might have resulted in our current situation.
The universe is one exceptionally long statement exploring the details of a nearly infinite IF-THEN continuum.
(IF there could be multiple entities with their own free will...
AND (IF some of those entities could operate at planetary scale ...
AND (IF some of those entities could choose separation and darkness...
...))))))))))) ... you are here ... upcoming Harvest punctuation just ahead ) ....
The universe seems unbalanced because God's not put on the closing ) yet.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - βαθμιαίος - 08-08-2010
I have only skimmed the first couple of paragraphs so far, but the issue of Light/Lines that I just received via email today looks to be discussing free will and its limits. http://www.llresearch.org/newsletters/issues/2010_2.pdf
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Questioner - 08-08-2010
There's a lot of great material in there that is immediately relevant, thank you for the link! I don't think of checking regularly for the newsletter... maybe I should.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - βαθμιαίος - 08-08-2010
You can sign up to have them emailed to you if you want. PM Bring4th_GLB or email contact@llresearch.org. Then you don't have to remember to check.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Ali Quadir - 08-09-2010
This is the same question as "Is it possible for God to create a rock that he himself cannot lift?" The answer is also the same of course.... The answer is we do have infinite choice, even if it seems we do not. God can create a rock he cannot lift.
While this seems to argue against omnipotence or our total freedom it does not. We are free to make choices that limit our experiences. There is a thing called consistency.
Consistency means any reality cannot be self contradicting. So in the end, any totality of experience cannot contradict itself. If I choose to limit myself by being a 3d entity. I cannot do something that would contradict my limitation without ceasing to be a 3d entity. If I could do that I would not be a 3d entity. But since I am,... I cannot. Or the universe would be inconsistent.
If the universe were inconsistent this would mean any choice is without consequences. Your choice would be detached from your experience. You would become a non event. Everything would revert to structureless chaos because a base requirement for structure would be missing..
So in short to give you choice. It was necessary for you to be bound to consequences. These consequences often seem to limit our options. But they should be perceived as limitations imposed upon ourselves.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Steppingfeet - 08-11-2010
Regarding the concept of freedom in free will and to what extent the actors within creation - be they rock, single-celled organism, human entity, or social memory complex - are endowed with actual free will in the purest, most philosophical sense, I would say that the limitations are self-chosen and self-generated, and follow in direct proportion to our degree of identification with the form of our manifestation.
To the extent that a rock thinks it is a rock, or a sparrow thinks it is a sparrow, or wind thinks it is the wind, it will be limited by the limitations intrinsic to that form. (By "think", i don't intend the term as we would use it. I mean whatever sensory/perception intelligence each manifestation has at its own level.) What distinguishes the human from lower stages of oneness-development is its capacity to transcend its bodily form, consciously recognizing that it's identity is much greater than a simple physical entity. Its range of free will expands accordingly.
Free will may also choose limitation as a means of generating catalyst for spiritual evolution:
Quote:25.2 Ra: I am Ra. This instrument is aware of the basic needs of its constitution, those being meditation, acceptance of limitations, experiences of joy through association with others, and with the beauty as of the singing, and the exercising with great contact, whenever possible, with the life forces of second density, especially those of trees...<snip>
As Ra indicates, acceptance of seeming limitation is also critical in the vertical movement of spiritual evolution, as symbolized by the crux ansata:
Quote:93.24 Ra: ... We may indicate that the crux ansata is a part of the concept complexes of the archetypical mind, the circle indicating the magic of the spirit, the cross indicating that nature of manifestation which may only be valued by the losing. Thus the crux ansata is intended to be seen as an image of the eternal in and through manifestation and beyond manifestation through the sacrifice and the transformation of that which is manifest.
Other ways to convey "valued by the losing" include:
--Accepting what IS, limitation included.
--Releasing our attachments and desires for something other than what is, including releasing our resistance to limitation.
As Carla writes in the commentary of Book V:
Quote:"In the time since Don’s death and the end of the Ra contact, I have come to much more of a peace with this issue, seeing clearly the way my limitations worked to refine me, to hone my sense of purpose and make ever more substantial those joys of spirit that informed my awareness."
Free will, will have its full range in the great circle of being as it traverses octaves and densities. As we are every thing, every entity, every emotion, every situation, every etc., we will have/are having/have had the opportunity of choosing infinite permutations under the sun, including being the sun.
It is a matter of identity, as far as I am aware. Seeming limitation and restriction of choice follows identity, itself a consequence of our point of view, or perhaps vice versa.
Quote:99.5 Ra: I am Ra. As in all distortions, the source is the limit of the viewpoint.
Recall that the entity who knows itself as the Creator is, "...basically capable of walking the universe with unfettered tread." - 48.9, Ra.
That knowing, however, is preceded by many experiences of limitation.
Take for instance the third-density limitation of the weakened physical vehicle:
Quote:
19.12 Ra: Consider, if you will, the tree for instance. It is self-sufficient. Consider, if you will, the third-density entity. It is self-sufficient only through difficulty and deprivation. (snip)
Thus, the weakening of the physical vehicle, as you call it, was designed to distort entities towards a predisposition to deal with each other. Thus, the lessons which approach a knowing of love can be begun.
(08-08-2010, 08:22 PM)Questioner Wrote: For a kid who's just learning how to pedal, training wheels restrict their freedom. With less freedom to fall off, maybe the kid can have a more enjoyable time learning about the relationship between their pedaling and their motion. Later on the wheels will come off, pedaling will already be an innate habit, and attention can be paid to the finer points of how to lean into turns without wiping out. I think that 4D may be like that in terms of co-creating reality.
Well illustrated! Great example of how limitation serves growth and is eventually released as later stages in development are embraced.
(08-08-2010, 11:48 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: Do you ever imagine "what if?" in your mind? This is what we are, the "what if?"s of the Creator's mind. One may try to change the imaginative sequence to as many possibilities as possible (forethought).
So, you're saying that John Lennon is the songwriter for the Creator? ; )
It can certainly and fruitfully be conceived as a big, grand "What if" experiment. What a great thought. What if I was an entity named Bryn who felt such and such a way and led such and such a life. What if I was Bryn's favorite hat which rested in such and such a place and appeared in such and such color. What if I was the continent upon which Bryn lived and was shaped in such and such way and contained such and such fauna and vegetation. What if I was GLB who interacted with Bryn and wrote such and such words and felt joy in such and such a way in so doing.
Love/Light,
GLB
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - unity100 - 08-12-2010
(08-11-2010, 11:13 PM)Bring4th_GLB Wrote: Regarding the concept of freedom in free will and to what extent the actors within creation - be they rock, single-celled organism, human entity, or social memory complex - are endowed with actual free will in the purest, most philosophical sense, I would say that the limitations are self-chosen and self-generated, and follow in direct proportion to our degree of identification with the form of our manifestation.
To the extent that a rock thinks it is a rock, or a sparrow thinks it is a sparrow, or wind thinks it is the wind, it will be limited by the limitations intrinsic to that form. (By "think", i don't intend the term as we would use it. I mean whatever sensory/perception intelligence each manifestation has at its own level.) What distinguishes the human from lower stages of oneness-development is its capacity to transcend its bodily form, consciously recognizing that it's identity is much greater than a simple physical entity. Its range of free will expands accordingly.
rock doesnt know how to be a sparrow. sparrow doesnt know how to be a human.
its not they chose and limited themselves to various manifestations and 'remembering', but they are approaching infinity from the finite side. they are finite, and learning to be infinite gradually.
this wouldnt change with 'there are others than me' understanding and abstract thought capability of the 3d entity. even if the entity is much more conducive now to various other states of being, it still doesnt know a lot of other states of being.
Quote:s Ra indicates, acceptance of seeming limitation is also critical in the vertical movement of spiritual evolution, as symbolized by the crux ansata:
except that the ll group were a group of wanderers. they are remembering the things they learned before, knew, and then forgot while incarnating. they arent 2d entities newly graduating into 3d.
Quote:Other ways to convey "valued by the losing" include:
--Accepting what IS, limitation included.
--Releasing our attachments and desires for something other than what is, including releasing our resistance to limitation.
these can only work for wanderers, and up to the point of their own natural level of advancement in relation to their own density. they cant go further than their own level, in their own density themselves. until they learn other states of being, and get closer to infinity.
Quote:Free will, will have its full range in the great circle of being as it traverses octaves and densities. As we are every thing, every entity, every emotion, every situation, every etc., we will have/are having/have had the opportunity of choosing infinite permutations under the sun, including being the sun.
going in circles would be a different kind of limitation, and, if it is to manifest infinity, it cannot be like that. to be infinite it needs to be infinite. that also would mean the free will may not go in circles.
Quote:Recall that the entity who knows itself as the Creator is, "...basically capable of walking the universe with unfettered tread." - 48.9, Ra.
That knowing, however, is preceded by many experiences of limitation.
note please, it says 'walking the universe with unfettered tread'. not infinity.
so, that entity who knows itself as the creator is, will still not be treading infinity in unfettered steps. there are still limitations.
the only way to be infinity, is to be infinity. and, only infinity is infinity. for a finite entity becoming infinite, infinite amount of time (or change) is needed. thus, the journey to infinity is, infinite.
we will never pass the same path again.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Questioner - 08-12-2010
There is an interesting concept from engineering called degrees of freedom. If two things are connected at just one point, they can swing around in any direction. Think of a ship that is tied to a buoy. Depending on the currents and winds, it can swing around this one point.
![[Image: mooring_buoy.jpg]](http://www.nps.gov/bisc/planyourvisit/images/mooring_buoy.jpg)
If there are two points of connection, a rigid line is formed, such a ship moored at both bow and stern.
![[Image: mooringpicsm.jpg]](http://www.gatorsupply.com/mooringpicsm.jpg)
With three points of connection, potential freedom of motion is even more locked down into a plane.
![[Image: ats_balloon_1.jpg]](http://www.historic-cornwall.org.uk/flyingpast/images/Exploring_Cornwalls_Past/Defended/ground_defence/ats_balloon_1.jpg)
("Women from the Auxiliary Territorial Service work the mooring ropes on a barrage balloon.")
With a fourth point of connection, a three-dimensional system is formed in the shape of a pyramid. This locks a shape in space but it can move in time.
![[Image: 1017607778_ee0eb5192b.jpg?v=0]](http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1109/1017607778_ee0eb5192b.jpg?v=0)
We can't physically access a fifth point of connection, but our memories lock reference points in both space and time.
The fewer points that are locked in place, the more degrees of freedom.
![[Image: six-degrees-of-freedom-347.jpg]](http://www.draganfly.com/images/features/DF-X6/six-degrees-of-freedom-347.jpg)
Perhaps higher densities mean more degrees of freedom. The highest connection point is unity with the Creator at a single point, and freedom to move in any direction through time, space, and possibilities. A lower density, more rigidly connected, would have at least two points through which a ray of light can be projected - perhaps this is Ra's level of 6D or 7D.
![[Image: Electro.jpg]](http://www.anonymator.cc/images.for.papers/Electro.jpg)
![[Image: radiance.png]](http://www.charlesmoyes.com/radiance.png)
Down lower are more connection points, such as the polarization of STS or STO - distortions that limit a portion of light from passing through a blockage, in order to better appreciate the remaining part.
![[Image: Capture-the-Ethereal-Beauty-of-Everyday-Objects-Us.jpg]](http://www.instructables.com/image/F0AJ1QKF2JKMXVK/Capture-the-Ethereal-Beauty-of-Everyday-Objects-Us.jpg)
Further connection points occur when a lack of wisdom makes behavior stereotyped or indiscreet. These are 5D and early 6D issues.
In 4D, Jesus' life showed a further connection point limiting an additional degree of freedom to reject his mission of demonstrating unconditional love at any cost - "Nevertheless, not my will but thine by done."
At our current level of 3D consciousness we don't even have the degree of freedom Jesus had to consciously accept or set aside our soul mission. We're further tied down to the locked-in limits of physical experience.
![[Image: neural.jpg]](http://www.codeproject.com/KB/IP/AnatomyOfASearchEngine1/neural.jpg)
continued next post so I can include all the images
continuing
2D consciousness of animals and trees doesn't have our freedom of Choice to be self-centered or giving. They just do what they need to do, instinctively.
![[Image: 599px-african-fish-eagle-just-caught-fish.jpg]](http://stopwildlifepoisoning.wildlifedirect.org/files/2009/07/599px-african-fish-eagle-just-caught-fish.jpg)
At the lowest level of consciousness is the 1D limitation of participating in elemental forces but without individual awareness.
![[Image: japanese_garden.jpg]](http://www.todaysgardenideas.com/images/japanese_garden/japanese_garden.jpg)
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - βαθμιαίος - 08-12-2010
Great post, Questioner. I think that's an extremely instructive way to think about it.
(08-11-2010, 11:13 PM)Bring4th_GLB Wrote:Quote:93.24 Ra: ... We may indicate that the crux ansata is a part of the concept complexes of the archetypical mind, the circle indicating the magic of the spirit, the cross indicating that nature of manifestation which may only be valued by the losing. Thus the crux ansata is intended to be seen as an image of the eternal in and through manifestation and beyond manifestation through the sacrifice and the transformation of that which is manifest.
I love that quote! I was just re-reading that session the other day and noticed it again, and now you post it.
(08-12-2010, 02:37 PM)unity100 Wrote: its not they chose and limited themselves to various manifestations and 'remembering'
If I understand this quote correctly, that's exactly what they did.
Quote:1.5 This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Cyclops - 08-13-2010
Ra Session 71 of the Law of One September 18, 1981
Quote:Questioner: It seems to me from this that the sub-Logos such as our sun uses free will to modify only slightly a much more general idea of created evolution so that the general plan of created evolution then seems to be uniform throughout the One Infinite Creation. The process is for the sub-Logoi to grow through the densities and, under the first distortion, find their way back to the original thought. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.
Questioner: Then each entity is of a path that leads to one destination. This is like many, many roads that travel through many, many places but eventually merge into one large center. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct but somewhat wanting in depth of description. More applicable would be the thought that each entity contains within it all of the densities and sub-densities of the octave so that in each entity, no matter whither its choices lead it, its great internal blueprint is one with all others. Thusly its experiences will fall into the patterns of the journey back to the original Logos. This is done through free will but the materials from which choices can be made are one blueprint.
Q’uo September 16, 1990
Quote:Free will in its raw and untamed state is almost precisely the opposite of true freedom of will, which is the will of one who is disciplined and freely chooses. Thus, not being blown about by the wind of the self, you may then internalize the wind and become aware of the spirit. And as you become aware of this spirit you shall find yourself moved in mind, in emotion, and sometimes even geographically, in order to do those things which you have not after all forgotten you came to do. The wisdom of the heart is full of this blueprint. The conscious mind, governed by logic and free will, can never accomplish this. To move from head to heart, while retaining the concept of mind, is not anatomically sensible, but it is the best vocabulary we have to describe the deep love and security which you may find when you have accepted the wind within you, for you are spirit. It is the body which is weighty and full of chemical reactions that are part of this illusion.
As you offer your free will to the blueprint you have planned for yourself, you become free and enabled in your actions. In this awareness there is nothing unacceptable, nothing unforgivable, but only that which may be seen as this or that distortion of love brought about by untamed free will.
Q'uo Special Meditation August 11, 2009
Quote:The first level of will is the will that has not been accessed by any entity. It is the wind on the water. It is the movement of that water as it moves from the rain to the aquifer to the sea to the air again. That free will that is the first distortion has no subject. It has no object. It is pure verb.
Hatonn Sunday Meditation March 4, 1990
Quote:The concept of freedom is a paradox, for as one thinks of freedom one is bound by one’s thought of freedom. One distorts the concept even as it is used in a reasoning and intellectual manner. Thus, freedom became infected with that trait of humankind which is absolutely necessary to set the stage for the making of choices, and that is the chaos of complete free will.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - unity100 - 08-14-2010
(08-12-2010, 02:50 PM)Questioner Wrote: At the lowest level of consciousness is the 1D limitation of participating in elemental forces but without individual awareness.
albeit, most of the entities you have in that image, are 2d entities. and actually some of them (some trees) may be more advanced than familiar 2d animals.
(08-12-2010, 10:07 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:(08-12-2010, 02:37 PM)unity100 Wrote: its not they chose and limited themselves to various manifestations and 'remembering'
If I understand this quote correctly, that's exactly what they did.
infinity can never be finity. because, if it could, it means it wasnt infinity from the start.
such a limitation or focusing is possible for aspects of that infinity, ie, finites.
infinite aspects can focus to infinite focuses. but, the infinity will still remain infinity even at this state. nothing changes for it.
so infinity will remain infinity at any given point, regardless of how many focuses the parts of it has.
then again, being an 'aspect' means that, the focusing aspect wasnt infinite in the first place.
so, the axiom again holds itself, infinity 'is'. it never changes. it is infinite.
what changes, are the alignment and situations of the infinite number of finites it comprises of.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Questioner - 08-14-2010
(08-14-2010, 02:02 PM)unity100 Wrote: albeit, most of the entities you have in that image, are 2d entities. and actually some of them (some trees) may be more advanced than familiar 2d animals.True! I didn't know how to find an image that would represent just the primary elements. I figured a Japanese or Chinese garden would depict earth, air (sky and wind blowing through the trees), water, and maybe some kind of fire... but I couldn't quickly find a picture of such a garden with torches.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - unity100 - 08-15-2010
a picture of the satellite io would suffice ?
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - βαθμιαίος - 08-16-2010
(08-14-2010, 02:02 PM)unity100 Wrote:(08-12-2010, 10:07 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:(08-12-2010, 02:37 PM)unity100 Wrote: its not they chose and limited themselves to various manifestations and 'remembering'
If I understand this quote correctly, that's exactly what they did.
infinity can never be finity. because, if it could, it means it wasnt infinity from the start.
Right. It's an illusion. In truth, infinity is all that there is and finity is an illusion. The point here is that portions of intelligent infinity choose to individualize themselves and explore finity. In doing so, they are choosing to (seemingly) limit themselves.
(08-14-2010, 02:15 PM)unity100 Wrote:βαθμιαίος Wrote:That's exactly what you do in seventh density and, correspondingly, in violet-ray work. You embrace all that there is, including all other entities' dark sides.
that cannot be as such. for starters, a finite entity can never encompass infinity by itself.
Ah, but it can, because there really isn't any such thing as a finite entity. By seventh density, entities are ready to drop the illusory husk of finity and become again that which they always were.
(08-14-2010, 02:02 PM)unity100 Wrote: so, the axiom again holds itself, infinity 'is'. it never changes. it is infinite.
It's an interesting question. Can infinity change? If not, why bother exploring finity at all?
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Ali Quadir - 08-17-2010
(08-16-2010, 11:43 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:(08-14-2010, 02:02 PM)unity100 Wrote: that cannot be as such. for starters, a finite entity can never encompass infinity by itself.
Ah, but it can, because there really isn't any such thing as a finite entity. By seventh density, entities are ready to drop the illusory husk of finity and become again that which they always were.
Precisely, in a holographic universe every part MUST contain the whole. And this universe most definitely is holographic. The base state is connection with all.. It requires effort to restrict awareness to only part of the information. But even when awareness is restricted being can never be restricted.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - unity100 - 08-17-2010
(08-16-2010, 11:43 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: Right. It's an illusion. In truth, infinity is all that there is and finity is an illusion. The point here is that portions of intelligent infinity choose to individualize themselves and explore finity. In doing so, they are choosing to (seemingly) limit themselves.
illusion ?
for infinity to be infinite, everything should be in it. that contains the concept 'illusion', if there was ever a concept that could be used in such a degrading manner regarding manifestations of infinity. first of all, if you take the 'illusion' concept out of infinity, it will not remain as infinity. so, illusion has to be there in infinity too.
second, the existence we know goes in octaves. so, there was an octave prior to this, and an octave after this, and according to what Ra says, infinite octaves. that means, manifestation in these octaves continue in the 'illusory' form as you dub it, towards infinity. so, there are infinite octaves going on in an 'illusory' manifestation. ie, the entities in the next octave, in its 2nd density, will still be limited in their 'illusion' according to their octave's rules and nature.
leaving the fact that even this makes that 'illusion' a permanent thing, because it goes towards infinity, there are philosophical considerations right from the start :
'you' cant choose to limit yourself to finity. because, if there is something that can be called 'me' , and any kind of choice that it can make, that means that that thing was not infinite from the start, but, finite.
infinity is. it doesnt make choices, because all choices are within it. it cannot be or choose to be anything other than itself, because then it wouldnt be infinite. leading to nothing existing, because everything is contained within it.
the 'seemingly' word is also out of place by the way. there is no other finite than this. the 'finite', is this. finity that is known, is this. dubbing it 'illusion' or 'fake' doesnt change the fact that as far as what we know, finite can be like this, and entities that are finite, are like this. ie, this is finity. the finite, is this. there isnt another 'finite' concept so that the finity can be an 'illusion'. finity we discovered, is as this.
in short, it doesnt matter whether the finite is dubbed as 'illusion' or else - if anything is so illusorily finite, it will take infinite amount of time, for it to be unillusorily infinite.
Quote:Ah, but it can, because there really isn't any such thing as a finite entity. By seventh density, entities are ready to drop the illusory husk of finity and become again that which they always were.
and then what happens ?
entities start the next octave in 8th again. just like how they started 1st of this octave, in the earlier octave.
there is infinite time passing in between that late 7th and late 8th, yet, there are infinite octaves which pass in between 1st and 7th.
that makes the two states pretty much equal.
Quote:It's an interesting question. Can infinity change? If not, why bother exploring finity at all?
in the question lies the answer.
infinity cant change. because even change is a concept that is contained within infinity, along with its antithesis, and their infinite versions. infinity, just can be infinity. it cannot explore anything, because it is explored and also unexplored. exploration is also a concept that lies within it.
answer is simple ; only finites can explore infinity. aspects of infinity. with this logic, also exploration is an entity, that can explore infinity, in infinite time.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - βαθμιαίος - 08-19-2010
(08-17-2010, 03:47 AM)Ali Quadir Wrote: But even when awareness is restricted being can never be restricted.
Very nicely put.
(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: illusion ?
Yes. The concept is straight from Ra.
(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: for infinity to be infinite, everything should be in it. that contains the concept 'illusion', if there was ever a concept that could be used in such a degrading manner regarding manifestations of infinity. first of all, if you take the 'illusion' concept out of infinity, it will not remain as infinity. so, illusion has to be there in infinity too.
I'm not saying the illusion isn't part of infinity. We are still part of the infinite Creator, even as we investigate finity.
(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: second, the existence we know goes in octaves. so, there was an octave prior to this, and an octave after this, and according to what Ra says, infinite octaves. that means, manifestation in these octaves continue in the 'illusory' form as you dub it, towards infinity. so, there are infinite octaves going on in an 'illusory' manifestation. ie, the entities in the next octave, in its 2nd density, will still be limited in their 'illusion' according to their octave's rules and nature.
Right.
(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: 'you' cant choose to limit yourself to finity. because, if there is something that can be called 'me' , and any kind of choice that it can make, that means that that thing was not infinite from the start, but, finite.
Right. That's why Ra calls it an illusion. You can only seem to be finite; really you're the Creator which is all that there is.
(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: infinity is. it doesnt make choices, because all choices are within it. it cannot be or choose to be anything other than itself, because then it wouldnt be infinite. leading to nothing existing, because everything is contained within it.
According to Ra, it does make choices. "Thus, the one intelligent infinity invested itself in an exploration of many-ness."
(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: the 'seemingly' word is also out of place by the way. there is no other finite than this. the 'finite', is this. finity that is known, is this. dubbing it 'illusion' or 'fake' doesnt change the fact that as far as what we know, finite can be like this, and entities that are finite, are like this. ie, this is finity. the finite, is this. there isnt another 'finite' concept so that the finity can be an 'illusion'. finity we discovered, is as this.
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. But our finity is different than that in other galaxies, according to Ra, in that our natural laws are different. Likewise, as you pointed out, our experience is presumably vastly different from that in the next octave.
(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: there is infinite time passing in between that late 7th and late 8th, yet, there are infinite octaves which pass in between 1st and 7th.
that makes the two states pretty much equal.
I don't disagree, but I may be missing your point. We were talking about becoming one with all in seventh density. (You had said that it wasn't possible to become one with all other selves' dark sides.)
(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: answer is simple ; only finites can explore infinity. aspects of infinity. with this logic, also exploration is an entity, that can explore infinity, in infinite time.
Right. And hence intelligent infinity's decision to investigate finity.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - unity100 - 08-20-2010
(08-19-2010, 10:31 PM)βαθμιαίος Wrote: Yes. The concept is straight from Ra.
(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: 'you' cant choose to limit yourself to finity. because, if there is something that can be called 'me' , and any kind of choice that it can make, that means that that thing was not infinite from the start, but, finite.
Right. That's why Ra calls it an illusion. You can only seem to be finite; really you're the Creator which is all that there is.
ra says infinite intelligence is without distortion, yet, we can contemplate that being 'intelligent' infinity has the distortion of being intelligent in the first place.
one should remember that Ra doesnt want to be remembered as bringers of unchanging dogma.
Quote:I'm not saying the illusion isn't part of infinity. We are still part of the infinite Creator, even as we investigate finity.
yes, and 'being part of' and 'being' are two different things. an icing on the cake is still part of the cake, but, it isnt the cake in its entirety.
Quote:(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: second, the existence we know goes in octaves. so, there was an octave prior to this, and an octave after this, and according to what Ra says, infinite octaves. that means, manifestation in these octaves continue in the 'illusory' form as you dub it, towards infinity. so, there are infinite octaves going on in an 'illusory' manifestation. ie, the entities in the next octave, in its 2nd density, will still be limited in their 'illusion' according to their octave's rules and nature.
Right.
the point here is, entities spent infinite time in the state of finiteness, through infinite octaves. that means finity as much a reality of existence, as infinity.
Quote:(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: infinity is. it doesnt make choices, because all choices are within it. it cannot be or choose to be anything other than itself, because then it wouldnt be infinite. leading to nothing existing, because everything is contained within it.
According to Ra, it does make choices. "Thus, the one intelligent infinity invested itself in an exploration of many-ness."
please notice that, intelligent infinity is infinity gained intelligence. it is not infinity.
infinity doesnt make choices. intelligent infinity does.
in short, intelligent infinity, is exploring infinity, the principle above it.
Quote:(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: the 'seemingly' word is also out of place by the way. there is no other finite than this. the 'finite', is this. finity that is known, is this. dubbing it 'illusion' or 'fake' doesnt change the fact that as far as what we know, finite can be like this, and entities that are finite, are like this. ie, this is finity. the finite, is this. there isnt another 'finite' concept so that the finity can be an 'illusion'. finity we discovered, is as this.
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. But our finity is different than that in other galaxies, according to Ra, in that our natural laws are different. Likewise, as you pointed out, our experience is presumably vastly different from that in the next octave.
the point is as i told in the earlier block;
entities spend infinite time in infinite octaves. even if the finity is different in each octave, it is finite. thus, there is infinite time spent being finite.
Quote:I don't disagree, but I may be missing your point. We were talking about becoming one with all in seventh density. (You had said that it wasn't possible to become one with all other selves' dark sides.)
this is different tho parallel. i say it is not possible for a single entity to be able to become one with all other selves' dark sides. moreover, it is impossible for a single entity to become one with all other selves' light sides either.
because, as a finite entity, it has finite capability.
only by increasingly merging with other entities and becoming greater groups (ie societal complexes, then totalities then so on), entities merge and become infinite.
in the end, infinite number of entities combine and become one with all others. this also implies that every entity becomes one with their light and dark sides one by one.
this is what i say.
Quote:(08-17-2010, 07:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: answer is simple ; only finites can explore infinity. aspects of infinity. with this logic, also exploration is an entity, that can explore infinity, in infinite time.
Right. And hence intelligent infinity's decision to investigate finity.
intelligent infinity is the one discovering. not infinity.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Experience You - 08-20-2010
Hello unity !
You seam to have the view point that things are somehow really separate from each other.
The only real thing about being finite is the experience of it, the perception, other then that you already are the alpha and omega of existence. You are existence itself.
You are. I AM
That's why trying to categorize things and putting conditions on them is in fact an illusion, that is the point of this "game" though.We Kidd ourselves in this.
There is no time there is no separation , there is no you and me, only the experience of that for the sake of the The ONE, which is us.
It may seen hard for you to understand that you are all that is already but it is so, in my understanding. It is like an Hologram.
Any and all definitions and separations are illusions.
What you experience as separated you is just a compartmentalization of your awareness. For lack of a better word.
The very fact i am explaining this is sort of a definition as well (illusion), but is the best i can do.
I AM. That is it
I don't follow Ra but what i feel on my heart and intellect. I came to this trough many teachings but mostly my discernment.
Edit: I don't wish to impose my view on reality, just sharing it, i have read some of your posts about what you perceive as infinite versus finite.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Questioner - 08-20-2010
Welcome to the forum, EU. Hmm, that sounds like the European Union. Or that you're a perfume in a bottle. I need to find another nickname to call you.
(Oh, and my standard disclaimer: I'm not the Questioner of the Ra books, I chose my username to show honor and respect for his work.)
(08-20-2010, 08:02 AM)Experience You Wrote: I don't follow Ra but what i feel on my heart and intellect. I came to this trough many teachings but mostly my discernment.I feel you'd like Ra. A couple of examples:
from Session 1
Quote:Ra: I am Ra. Consider, if you will, that the universe is infinite. This has yet to be proven or disproven, but we can assure you that there is no end to your selves, your understanding, what you would call your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creation.
That which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. To have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. In an Infinite Creator there is only unity. You have seen simple examples of unity. You have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. This is a simplistic example of unity.
In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.
and from Session 15
Quote:Questioner: What is the greatest service that our population on this planet could perform individually?
Ra: I am Ra. There is but one service. The Law is One. The offering of self to Creator is the greatest service, the unity, the fountainhead. The entity who seeks the One Creator is with infinite intelligence. From this seeking, from this offering, a great multiplicity of opportunities will evolve depending upon the mind/body/spirit complexes’ distortions with regard to the various illusory aspects or energy centers of the various complexes of your illusion.
Thus, some become healers, some workers, some teachers, and so forth.
The Ra books are available for free download through the Library tab at the top of this web page. Lawofone.info provides a free search engine to explore them. And printed copies are sold by LLR to help fund their work including this site. Just figured I'd point that all out so that you can be invited to explore the foundational messages that brought together this community.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Experience You - 08-20-2010
Questioner
This made my eyes tear a bit -P
Yes i am somewhat familiar with the books, i have seen this quote before, it is so beautiful, that is what i understand/feel within me.
Thanks for the warm welcome you can call me E if you want.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Ali Quadir - 08-20-2010
Hey E, you seem to have a good grasp of metaphysics, welcome to the forum!
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Richard - 08-20-2010
The only limitations of free will is what you impose on it. You are free to attempt anything you can imagine. You are also free to live with the consequences of trying anything you can imagine.
So use a little common sense in your attempts to apply free will. You really can fly…for a bit…mind the landing though.
Richard
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - Experience You - 08-20-2010
Richard
Yes of course but i don't think being fearful of yourself is a good idea. A valid approach though certainly.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - unity100 - 08-20-2010
(08-20-2010, 08:02 AM)Experience You Wrote: Hello unity !
You seam to have the view point that things are somehow really separate from each other.
The only real thing about being finite is the experience of it, the perception, other then that you already are the alpha and omega of existence. You are existence itself.
You are. I AM
That's why trying to categorize things and putting conditions on them is in fact an illusion, that is the point of this "game" though.We Kidd ourselves in this.
There is no time there is no separation , there is no you and me, only the experience of that for the sake of the The ONE, which is us.
It may seen hard for you to understand that you are all that is already but it is so, in my understanding. It is like an Hologram.
Any and all definitions and separations are illusions.
What you experience as separated you is just a compartmentalization of your awareness. For lack of a better word.
The very fact i am explaining this is sort of a definition as well (illusion), but is the best i can do.
I AM. That is it
I don't follow Ra but what i feel on my heart and intellect. I came to this trough many teachings but mostly my discernment.
Edit: I don't wish to impose my view on reality, just sharing it, i have read some of your posts about what you perceive as infinite versus finite.
things are both separate from each other, and both united with each other at the same time.
this lies behind all the polarity of existence, all the potential, and the action it generates.
ranging from mover/moved, to male/female, light/dark, and so on.
had everything been united with everything else, with the separateness being an 'illusion' (as is there can be an illusion), then there wouldnt be any action, anything happening because everything would be one, merged, and at point infinity.
had everything been separate from each other, nothing would know that some other thing existed, and therefore there would be no action, nothing would happen, because nothing would be able to interact with another thing.
there is infinity.
then there are subsets of it.
one of its immediate subset is infinite intelligence. it is different from infinity. it is intelligent.
that means, there should be another subset of infinity, which is the complimenting, partner factor of intelligent infinity.
when these two merge, they would become one with infinity. whenever these are not together, there should be potential in between them, and there should occur manifestation.
RE: There isnt that much freedom it seems - βαθμιαίος - 08-24-2010
I saw this quote when I was thinking about this thread and thought it might be relevant. "All serve the One Creator. There is nothing else to serve, for the Creator is all that there is. It is impossible not to serve the Creator. There are simply various distortions of this service."
(08-20-2010, 04:08 AM)unity100 Wrote: ra says infinite intelligence is without distortion, yet, we can contemplate that being 'intelligent' infinity has the distortion of being intelligent in the first place.
----
please notice that, intelligent infinity is infinity gained intelligence. it is not infinity.
infinity doesnt make choices. intelligent infinity does.
in short, intelligent infinity, is exploring infinity, the principle above it.
----
intelligent infinity is the one discovering. not infinity.
I'm not sure that your distinction between infinity and intelligent infinity is all that convincing. Ra doesn't describe intelligent infinity's intelligence as a distortion. The first distortion, according to them, is free will.
Infinity became aware. There is no longer, as I understand it, any part of infinity that is not aware or intelligent.
(08-20-2010, 04:08 AM)unity100 Wrote: one should remember that Ra doesnt want to be remembered as bringers of unchanging dogma.
Very true. However, the concepts of infinity/unity and the illusory nature of our experience are so basic to their teaching that I doubt that those are concepts they'd forsake. But, by all means, if they don't work for you, please let them go.
(08-20-2010, 04:08 AM)unity100 Wrote: yes, and 'being part of' and 'being' are two different things. an icing on the cake is still part of the cake, but, it isnt the cake in its entirety.
This gets back to the concept of a holographic universe. It's pretty fundamental to Ra's teaching, as I understand it. We have discussed the quote where Ra says that "any portion, no matter how small, of any density or illusory pattern contains, as in an holographic picture, the One Creator which is infinity." Here's how they put it another time: "the unity of the Creator exists within the smallest portion of any material created by Love, much less in a self-aware being."
(08-20-2010, 04:08 AM)unity100 Wrote: the point here is, entities spent infinite time in the state of finiteness, through infinite octaves. that means finity as much a reality of existence, as infinity.
It's definitely a reality, but the point is that it's an illusory reality.
(08-20-2010, 04:08 AM)unity100 Wrote: this is different tho parallel. i say it is not possible for a single entity to be able to become one with all other selves' dark sides. moreover, it is impossible for a single entity to become one with all other selves' light sides either.
because, as a finite entity, it has finite capability.
only by increasingly merging with other entities and becoming greater groups (ie societal complexes, then totalities then so on), entities merge and become infinite.
in the end, infinite number of entities combine and become one with all others. this also implies that every entity becomes one with their light and dark sides one by one.
this is what i say.
That's fine, that you say that, as long as you're clear that it's different than what Ra says, which is that each of us has access to infinite capability.