(10-27-2017, 07:12 AM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Wow, no wonder demons hate angels.  You get up to offer some poor bloke a beer and everyone thinks you're the monster when an angel is the one murdering you.

I have found that the goetia demons are often not going to bother with anyone trying to summon them.  Further I've found basically all of the people who 'conjure' such entities are themselves greatly delusional with megalomania.  It isn't hard to realize that such entities are not going to do anything more than what they will, and they don't seem to care for bothering in our affairs.

So when I read such fearful stories as people being 'crushed' I scoff because what would be the point? What is there to gain?  The story itself lends more credit to the being than the being itself.  It's a lie.  I might fear demons but I've been studying their nature long enough to know that our stories of them are almost always incorrect portrayals of their nature's.

I could worship Amaymon and Asmodeus, and know that they will never take notice in me because they're such powerful beings, to focus on me is like applying a microscope to examine a skin cell, why bother?

I could worship Lilith and know that no matter how much I do, I'll never get a succubus lover out of it.

I could even try to summon these beings and I know they would ignore me, or at the most take a little of my energy as a sampler then be done with me.

I think angels and demons are more...  Conscious than we give their nature credit.  Angels could be as destructive as demons.  Demons could be as helpful as angels.  While clear prejudices probably exist from past experiences, one bad apple doesn't mean the entire lot of them is bad.  The same can be said of a good apple.

Plus anyone attempting to be positive should not dabble in 'conjuration' as it's literally an attempt to curve and control another entity, it's wholly free will infringement.  No form of conjuration is positive just like no form of magic is done innocently.

I don't play with magic, or any of that.  I just study it, and have to say in relation to 'summoning demons' that there is an extreme amount if disinformation and fearful fictitious stories masquerading as fact.

Don't try to summon demons, why would you?
And don't try to summon angels, why would you do that?

Whatever happened to just making communications?  Why do people try to cage an entity to make it do stuff for them?

So rude lol..

(10-27-2017, 08:58 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: No I agree with you Apotheosis, don’t try and summons angels or demons. But there are real consequences and dangers when immature seekers try working grimoure magick. Most likely nothing will happen because how many people can actually perform the conjurations and rituals correctly? Magickal technique is a fine art.

But I do stand behind what I said. Obviously two people being crushed out of thin air is a rare case.  Believe it or not, that’s your choice. The point being that’s it’s dangerous to mess around with demonic entities. How do you know that they are ignoring you? How do you know they’re not there invisible awaiting further initiatives from the Magician? Demons are very clever.

I am not saying to be fearful. I am saying to be wise and cautious. Do whatever you want though.

Remember what Ra said to Don when he asked about the 5D negative’s name. Ra was reluctant to give it because Ra knew that had the group received his name, that they would be karmically tied / metaphysically linked with that being. Rather, Ra suggested the positive approach, which is to offer love to this entity and love it as the Creator. Names are unimportant in the open heart which loves ALL. All is one.

(10-27-2017, 10:08 AM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote:

(10-27-2017, 08:58 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: No I agree with you Apotheosis, don’t try and summons angels or demons. But there are real consequences and dangers when immature seekers try working grimoure magick. Most likely nothing will happen because how many people can actually perform the conjurations and rituals correctly? Magickal technique is a fine art.

But I do stand behind what I said. Obviously two people being crushed out of thin air is a rare case.  Believe it or not, that’s your choice. The point being that’s it’s dangerous to mess around with demonic entities. How do you know that they are ignoring you? How do you know they’re not there invisible awaiting further initiatives from the Magician? Demons are very clever.

I am not saying to be fearful. I am saying to be wise and cautious. Do whatever you want though.

Remember what Ra said to Don when he asked about the 5D negative’s name. Ra was reluctant to give it because Ra knew that had the group received his name, that they would be karmically tied / metaphysically linked with that being. Rather, Ra suggested the positive approach, which is to offer love to this entity and love it as the Creator. Names are unimportant in the open heart which loves ALL. All is one.

I won't deny there are dangers involved in forcing a being against their will to do what you want.  But I think that beyond that assault upon their free will, they have no reason to harm a human or even bother one, and in most cases they can resist and further, do the name's given of these entities properly link to them?  Is the demon Bune of the goetia really going to crush someone for their poor attempt at controlling it? Perhaps, but it's beyond our rules and reasonings, murder to us might be much more impractical to a demon when you consider metaphysically what their reality must be like.

I think your approach is somewhat based out of fear.  You see I'm certain there's no legitimate case of people being crushed or liked by demons.  I do not believe the YouTube videos of African children getting pulled away by invisible forces, I don't believe stories of demons murdering their commuters.

What I do believe is the mind's fantastic ability to create narratives from mere emotions of fear and circumstances of uncertainty and mystery.

No offense, but if two people were actually crushed by thin air while performing a satanic ritual, don't you think that would've caught a reporter's ear somewhere? That there'd be further investigation into their deaths?  The fear around the story is fictitious.  I so extremely highly doubt a good majority of demons would murder an actual incarnate human, the consequences would be great against them.  Their failure to control and manipulate would bomb their polarity, the average person isn't as Carla, killing them is not a service to any negative being or agenda, it's a disservice to the demon as much to the human's soul.  It's a failure of servicing the self, and in a way is a service to the other providing them catalyst to work with in a while new life.

In a similar way angels don't help people willynilly because to do so at their own desire is a service to the angel more so than the human.

I ask you this.  How do you know that demons aren't ignoring you?  How do you know they're invisible?  How can you surmise the behavior of these entities? A clever monster needn't wait in darkness to strike, for all you know the last time you dropped and lost your wallet or blew a tire out on a highway was the act of a demon.

Those fears are part of the misinformation narrative of an otherwise legitimate 'race' of entities.  Like calling every asian smart or black person athletic, only in this case we call every demon evil.

They're not all evil, and they're not all devious, and they're not all harmful.

And they definitely are not all that clever.  It is so very easy to be an invisible entity and to appear clever, when in reality they're doing research to appear clever, they paid attention, listened closely, connected the dots of what makes up a person before acting.

Further assuming some of those named entities are 4D+, some of them have access to reality in ways that grant them an extreme advanced knowledge of someone's interest in them.  They'll know a conjurer long before they've drawn a circle.

I find that pleas of caution come from fear, and that no matter how wise it may seem, being told to fear something is not the most wise advice to give, perhaps prudent and sincere, but wise?

It would seem more wise to advise anyone and everyone to avoid this kind of magical working, leave the containment of supernatural forces to those gifted in such, everyone else is merely being tricked into enslaving an entity for selfish reasons.

Let me ask you this.

The goetia demons can be commanded to take form (under hopefully the premise of it being a pleasant form), why has no one conjured one of these demons, made this commandx then taken a picture? What the human eyes can see, a phone camera should pick up on too.

Yet there is not ONE SINGULAR picture of any of those demons.  Not one shred of an attempt to do this.
You have HOURS OF VIDEO, of empty rooms and things going bump in the night, but a single picture of a demon said to be able to show itself?

We have hundreds of thousands of NDE reports, many of them do speak of a hell, some speak of demons, but never has one said that a demon took them away, or did anything more than scare the bejesus out of them.  Never has the hell one saw pulled them in, and only one NDE has spoken of someone being offered a 'Dark Immortality' by the king and queen of the underworld.

No haha, overall every story of demons is a narrative, a play of thoughtforms and emotional manipulation, meat to the skeleton that is the boogeyman, who will haunt you in your sleep, in your waking life, and ruin you.

The reality is demons are not like Paranormal Activity.  If you fear them, that's all that's needed to control you.

Don't fear the unknown, but do explore it carefully.

Don't listen to stories of invisible monsters.  I doubt even the 5D Entity was a 'demon', in fact I wonder often if that particular entity was another incarnation of Ra just doing their job all the same as was the Ra incarnation being interacted with and the Ra oversoul group (Ra in general) offering their information.

Perhaps Ra withheld the name, because the only one available to give was their own? How can we know? Why do we assume otherwise?

Sure, we can draw attention, but do you pay attention to every ant that wants you to bring it food? Or do you pay attention to every bird that picks at your crumbs?

I think you'd be more likely drawing attention from your higher self than from a demon.

Otherwise I should have several demons haunting my life just from when I was writing my book on demons, using full proper names and passages from the goetia, including full summoning incantations.  Even in mind it should work without the physical apertures.

Yet the most I ever had happen to me was after doing a chapter where the MC summoned up Asmodeus, I got sick and threw up out of nowhere while writing that chapter, once I stopped writing, I stopped getting sick.

The fear of a lack of protection would have me terrified that I'd be murdered if I believed that story of people being crushed.  My experience in reality is simply that they will inconvenience you to get you to leave them alone.

The 5D Entity was more dangerous than a demon by that standard.

I was once terrified of demons because of all of these stories of fear surrounding them.

It seems ever more apparent the further you discover their interactions, that they just want us to leave them alone, that we're like children pestering them.  Ants in their kitchen.  Birds in their garden.  How upsetting must it be when one of them then enslaves you and forces you to do their bidding but demand you respect their free will as they deny you yours?

Are the demons even really the bad guys here? Asmodeus got summoned up and chained then marched to Solomon's Temple, all he did was offer help and fall in love with a woman, the worst he did was knock over a tree he walked into.

Human's subsequently enslaved him, made him fall in love then deny him that love, then used him for his knowledge.

Lilith was an Egyptian Goddess of Sex brought down to a Mother of Demons by Judaism.  She was called the first wife of Adam who refused to be seen as anything except his equal and left him when he claimed to be her superior.  From there she was courting angels and demons and eventually became the mother figure of all demons.

The story surrounding the entities is not an accurate portrayal of such entities.  Their origins, their personalities.

There's so much to be discovered of our demon and angel brothers and sisters.  I've said often that demons scare me, but I'm more scared of their potential.

But to be fair, I fear humans in much the same way.

(10-27-2017, 08:58 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: Remember what Ra said to Don when he asked about the 5D negative’s name. Ra was reluctant to give it because Ra knew that had the group received his name, that they would be karmically tied / metaphysically linked with that being.

(10-28-2017, 05:32 AM)loostudent Wrote:

(10-27-2017, 08:58 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: Remember what Ra said to Don when he asked about the 5D negative’s name. Ra was reluctant to give it because Ra knew that had the group received his name, that they would be karmically tied / metaphysically linked with that being.

Isn't somewhere in LOO Book V written that Don tryed to make a deal with 5d negative entity - to leave Carla and torture him instead? That might caused his mental state and death.

(10-28-2017, 03:19 AM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Your question is a very unusual one in it's progression of events.  For what reason would one try to take a selfie after driving an entity to drive them mad?

Makes no sense and serves to disservice my point being that secrecy is an excuse to hide the fact a majority of those practicing this stuff are simply delusional and don't want the prying eye of other's judgment to interfere with their deluded perspective of reality.

I would similarly call you naive for believing in half of these people just as you believe yourself.

The only way I will ever believe that a person has managed a true real summoning of a demon is if they managed to take a picture of it after they so boldly claim in the grimoire that the demon can take form and appear to the naked eye.
Not talking about a selfie, although knowing the narcissistic behaviors of those deluding themselves with megalomania I could see someone misperceiving their request of 'get a picture of the demon and you'll never be questioned' with 'take a selfie of yourself with a demon'.

Of course it's not hard to maintain secrecy, especially about something that isn't true or real in a majority of the circumstances surrounding that which is being kept secret.

It's not hard.  A legit picture would still be denied as proof, it could be photoshopped, it could be some trickery.  Not providing that which you should be able to is the perfect example of a lie being perpetuated.

'Oh hey guy, I summoned this demon called Bune, he looked kind of like a dragon, I got him to take form then asked for his consent to photograph him, here take a look'
And if he presented a picture of a demon standing inside his room, I'd be satisfied.

Instead I get 'Oh hey guy, I summoned this demon, it's all secretive and stuff but I promise it's legit.'

I even challenged some people to prove their claim and at least attempt to do so.  I was met with excuses and rationalizations such as 'Oh it wouldn't work, demons can't be photographed' or 'I don't think they'd let me' or 'That's not how it works'.

How it works is you cage an entity, make it do what you say, so there's no excuse why you couldn't ask it to take pleasant form and then photograph it then go on with the task at hand.
No reason at all why not.

So, I argue it, most people who speak of doing this stuff, they are full of it.  They're full of themselves, and they're not honest with themselves or others.  Their perspective reality is built off of lies that they delude themselves to believe in then suck others in with the cryptic mysterious nature that they claim to be exploring when all they're doing us chanting in a room, alone, and believing they're important enough to not be resisted against by an entity they know nothing about except that they can conjure it up into a cage and make it do what they want as if some kind of pet dog being told to fetch.

I would say just don't mess with those kinds of things, no one has any reason to and considering how little has been gained over centuries of these practices you'd think someone by now would hold up a red flag and say 'hey, I think this is bullshit, you  brag about it despite keeping it a secret and you've nothing to show for it, not even another's misfortune, and I see you have the means to provide proof, evidence of your claims, but consistently choose not to.  Yeah, you're not legit.  I believe in the demons you speak of summoning, but I don't believe in you summoning them.  Prove me wrong otherwise stfu because you're basically crying wolf now.  If you really wanted attention or want to come off interesting, learn about the demons and mythos involving them instead of playing make believe with imaginary friends in an incomplete ritual you read in some tome.'

Or simply out, occams razor.  The most likely conclusion is these are lonely people trying to give some meaning to their otherwise insignificant life.

If you are so powerful to work with demons and angels, you probably don't need to gather evidence, it would be surrounding you in circumstantial coincidence, you'd be able to point out such.

But no one does.  Probably because no one legitimately does this stuff to such a degree, and those that do, aren't so lowly with ego that they need to be praised or liked or even known for doing such stuff.  They don't need to make excuses.

Like I believe more in someone praying to an angel and getting a response than someone conjuring a demon and making pacts or deals or commands of it.

There's an obscured truth here, and it's mostly obscured by those who practice these things, probably because they know it's often times not real but very...Metaphysical...

(10-28-2017, 11:08 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: To clarify things, my story was about the disregarding of magical protection. It’s not fear mongering about summoning demons. You will see warnings in any book discussing ritual evocation. Is that fear? No it’s not. I am not fearful, and I don’t appreciate you projecting that onto me. What am I afraid of? Summoning angels and demons? No, I don’t have the desire to do so. If you want to see what happens when you perform an elaborate and complicated ritual and evocation from the Goatia (go look at it in the book and you will see), and then in the middle of it decide “this is BS” and walk out of the circle and leave the ritual space, then go ahead and share the results. Is it fearful to say that you will put yourself in great danger if you do that? No, i don’t think so. I don’t know for certain what will happen, but I do know that magicians create circles of protection for a reason. In that specific case, the couple completely abdonded the working and left the circle. If anything it’s a story to warn those about disregarding the magical protection. Take it literally or not.

Imagine if Don and Jim, in the middle of a session, didn’t like what Ra said and just up and left, picked up Carla, and left the room without closing the working? Well, Carla would have died certainly and Don and Jim would’ve put themselves in the hands of their 5D negative friend.

Ra said that as one stands close to the light that one attracts attention from both positive and negative polarities. If that entity couldn’t take that light for himself, he sought to put it out. That means killing the seeker.

The knowledge and experiences of magicians through the ages is not common knowledge to the public. You will never see a newspaper speaking about summoning going insane or dying in ritual magick. Magicians are not concerned with taking pictures to prove demons and angels exist. Physical evocation is extremely difficult and rare. From what I’ve read, the closest to physical evocation is using a black mirror.

Anyway, I would love to hear what you have to share Aion. Only if you want to though.

(10-27-2017, 07:12 AM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Wow, no wonder demons hate angels.  You get up to offer some poor bloke a beer and everyone thinks you're the monster when an angel is the one murdering you.

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(10-28-2017, 11:28 AM)Aion Wrote:

(10-28-2017, 11:08 AM)Nau7ik Wrote: To clarify things, my story was about the disregarding of magical protection. It’s not fear mongering about summoning demons. You will see warnings in any book discussing ritual evocation. Is that fear? No it’s not. I am not fearful, and I don’t appreciate you projecting that onto me. What am I afraid of? Summoning angels and demons? No, I don’t have the desire to do so. If you want to see what happens when you perform an elaborate and complicated ritual and evocation from the Goatia (go look at it in the book and you will see), and then in the middle of it decide “this is BS” and walk out of the circle and leave the ritual space, then go ahead and share the results. Is it fearful to say that you will put yourself in great danger if you do that? No, i don’t think so. I don’t know for certain what will happen, but I do know that magicians create circles of protection for a reason. In that specific case, the couple completely abdonded the working and left the circle. If anything it’s a story to warn those about disregarding the magical protection. Take it literally or not.

Imagine if Don and Jim, in the middle of a session, didn’t like what Ra said and just up and left, picked up Carla, and left the room without closing the working? Well, Carla would have died certainly and Don and Jim would’ve put themselves in the hands of their 5D negative friend.

Ra said that as one stands close to the light that one attracts attention from both positive and negative polarities. If that entity couldn’t take that light for himself, he sought to put it out. That means killing the seeker.

The knowledge and experiences of magicians through the ages is not common knowledge to the public. You will never see a newspaper speaking about summoning going insane or dying in ritual magick. Magicians are not concerned with taking pictures to prove demons and angels exist. Physical evocation is extremely difficult and rare. From what I’ve read, the closest to physical evocation is using a black mirror.

Anyway, I would love to hear what you have to share Aion. Only if you want to though.

Skepticism is the standard mode of thought nowadays. Even if a genuine case was encountered do you really think it would feature in the mainstream without being turned in to a skeptical explanation? Even if it was accepted as unusual some mundane explanation would be given, it would be treated as a murder or suicide if someone died. Remember that the vast majority believe magic is only real in movies and on the stage. As you say, people who spend their time brooding on trying to provide 'proof' usually fall off the path because it is a distraction away from the real work.

Using a black mirror isn't all that likely to be an evocation. People think that anytime you "see" something that its been evoked but external reality can reflect internal reality so I think that most of the time when people see things it is this crossing over of the unmanifest self. Proper evocation (and let me be clear that evocation isn't just for demons) takes immense energy, focus and a good understanding of the nature of metaphysical construction.

(10-28-2017, 07:27 PM)Turtle Wrote:

(10-27-2017, 07:12 AM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Wow, no wonder demons hate angels.  You get up to offer some poor bloke a beer and everyone thinks you're the monster when an angel is the one murdering you.

Meh, it was a joke to suggest the importance of a person needing to choose whether to empower a demon or an angel by the focus of their attention.

(10-29-2017, 12:31 PM)Glow Wrote:

(10-28-2017, 07:27 PM)Turtle Wrote:

(10-27-2017, 07:12 AM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Wow, no wonder demons hate angels.  You get up to offer some poor bloke a beer and everyone thinks you're the monster when an angel is the one murdering you.

Meh, it was a joke to suggest the importance of a person needing to choose whether to empower a demon or an angel by the focus of their attention.

Some of us saw your intent. I actually print screened it, I thought it was so great. I had interpreted it as the person metaphorically slaying the demon, because by staying focused on the light the demon has no power.

(10-29-2017, 07:22 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Well that's more my understanding is some of us are initiated, we're actively producing the means by which magic can be imbued and made manifest.

Yet I mostly see people waving their arms pronouncing names and speaking of fearful stuffs.

So spooky.

It's funny you ask if something is bothering me.  It's like lately I've noticed so many people talking about being influenced externally, yet they all don't realize that it's all coming from their self.  Demons are not a valid area to shift responsibility upon.  We must accept that EVERYTHING we do is our responsibility even if influenced by a demon.

A spirit guide pointing my intuition is using my perceptions to direct me.  I am still directed by myself, it is still my responsibility, even though a spirit guide might be the origin cause.  A demon might put dark thoughts into my mind, they are still produced by my mind and thus my responsibility.

I just want to be able to explain myself clearly.  I still suck at it lol..

...Naw, I actually did lose a relative recently that has had me rather emotionally flustered and has gone into other areas of contemplation of emotion such as fear.  Overall I'm just tense and coming off all know it all and confrontational.

I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just adamant that no one else does either along these areas of the occult.

(10-29-2017, 07:22 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Well that's more my understanding is some of us are initiated, we're actively producing the means by which magic can be imbued and made manifest.

Yet I mostly see people waving their arms pronouncing names and speaking of fearful stuffs.

So spooky.

It's funny you ask if something is bothering me.  It's like lately I've noticed so many people talking about being influenced externally, yet they all don't realize that it's all coming from their self.  Demons are not a valid area to shift responsibility upon.  We must accept that EVERYTHING we do is our responsibility even if influenced by a demon.

A spirit guide pointing my intuition is using my perceptions to direct me.  I am still directed by myself, it is still my responsibility, even though a spirit guide might be the origin cause.  A demon might put dark thoughts into my mind, they are still produced by my mind and thus my responsibility.

I just want to be able to explain myself clearly.  I still suck at it lol..

...Naw, I actually did lose a relative recently that has had me rather emotionally flustered and has gone into other areas of contemplation of emotion such as fear.  Overall I'm just tense and coming off all know it all and confrontational.

I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just adamant that no one else does either along these areas of the occult.