(03-03-2019, 10:46 AM)Stranger Wrote: This is a thought that has bothered me for some time now, and reading Zingdad's The Ascension Papers 3rd edition Book 1 has finally crystallized the thought sufficiently for me to express it.

I don't expect an answer because I don't think there is an answer, but the question is worth considering.

Part 1 - The Question.
The One who started out as an undifferentiated whole still exists within parameters.  At the very least, the One exists; is capable of creation; capable of experiencing itself; has at least one motive - eg, the motive to explore itself and its infinite capacities.  It has capacities.  It exists in bliss rather than just "exists."

In other words: The One has a *structure* inherent in it, even at the highest level, apart from all of its creation/illusion.  It is not just an undifferentiated amorphous blob of Being - not even at its very core. 

And at this point I am way past the materialistic/mechanistic belief that things just happened to be the way they are.  That isn't true at any level of what is, and certainly even less so the higher (closer to the One, further from illusion) one goes.  So no, The One did not "just happen" to have these attributes.

And if you say to me that The One does not have attributes apart from those attributes that it chose to create and explore, then that very statement contradicts itself. Choosing to create and explore attributes within itself requires the attributes of, again, choosing, creating, wishing to explore, and ability to experience its creations. 

So then why does The One have these attributes in the first place?


Part 2 - The Hypothesis.
In The Ascension Papers Book 1 Chapter 10 - What Is Evil? - the author/entity channeled presents a very compelling account of how The One's wish to experience many-ness was taken to its logical extreme (we hope) of asking, what would it be like to be trapped in many-ness, sinking ever deeper into it?  And as a result of this inquiry, other thoughts arose which, being the One's thoughts, became manifestations rather than abstract speculations.  The Veil, ego and hatred were among the secondary thoughts that came into existence to allow this possibility to be explored, so that separation would not only be experienced but deepened further from within by the choices and creations of the veiled parts of the One. 

The veiled beings (us) have the full capacity to experience ourselves as random accidents in an impersonal Universe, with nothing beyond that.

According to The Father, The One is not aware of anything apart from itself.  Yet it has attributes inherent in it (including being itself).

What if The One is also, itself, a (hyper-)veiled part of a larger Reality?

(03-03-2019, 12:22 PM)Infinite Unity Wrote: Sounds like your describing Logos.

(03-03-2019, 01:06 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: It's probably super easy to solve a paradox at the level of the One.
Even paradoxes are solved at like 6th density.

I don't think Ra has any paradoxes.

Is unity the same as a solution to all paradoxes. Does Unity mean no paradoxes?

(03-03-2019, 10:46 AM)Stranger Wrote: This is a thought that has bothered me for some time now, and reading Zingdad's The Ascension Papers 3rd edition Book 1 has finally crystallized the thought sufficiently for me to express it.

I don't expect an answer because I don't think there is an answer, but the question is worth considering.

Part 1 - The Question.
The One who started out as an undifferentiated whole still exists within parameters.  At the very least, the One exists; is capable of creation; capable of experiencing itself; has at least one motive - eg, the motive to explore itself and its infinite capacities.  It has capacities.  It exists in bliss rather than just "exists."

(03-03-2019, 10:46 AM)Stranger Wrote: In other words: The One has a *structure* inherent in it, even at the highest level, apart from all of its creation/illusion.  It is not just an undifferentiated amorphous blob of Being - not even at its very core. 

And at this point I am way past the materialistic/mechanistic belief that things just happened to be the way they are.  That isn't true at any level of what is, and certainly even less so the higher (closer to the One, further from illusion) one goes.  So no, The One did not "just happen" to have these attributes.

And if you say to me that The One does not have attributes apart from those attributes that it chose to create and explore, then that very statement contradicts itself. Choosing to create and explore attributes within itself requires the attributes of, again, choosing, creating, wishing to explore, and ability to experience its creations.

(03-04-2019, 06:33 PM)anagogy Wrote: I guess I disagree with the initial premise: that the One has organized parameters (which I would define for the purposes of our conversation as planned "limitations" or "structure"). You mentioned abilities like: will, and capacities, like creating, and existing in bliss, but I don't see these as "parameters" (planned structure) so much as simply the natural state, and/or powers, inherent in not collecting into pools of illusory separation. Infinity does have natural attributes simply by virtue of being infinity. Just like a still pond is different from a rippling pond. The image reflected will be different. Unity is simply the opposite of separation or distortion. You wouldn't call the lack of separation a part of planned structure would you? It is more of a natural attribute. You experience disorder, and disharmony, in separation because there is the illusion of moving parts which builds up the illusion of friction as the very thoughtform of separation is the essence of entropy -- the tendency towards disorder rather than order.
  
I agree that oneness contains attributes (though most eastern spiritual traditions forbid speaking of them for this very reason of confusion). It is infinity though, which is all potential attributes (that doesn't mean all attributes are manifesting at once because that would be a logical contradiction). Light and dark cannot exist in the same place in equal concentrations for example. There is the unnatural (chosen caused attributes) and the super natural (latent uncaused attributes). There is an awareness in unity of that threshold at which Beingness starts to become distorted though. The threshold at which the Light of Truth (Beingness) begins to become "bent", causing a rainbow of distorted Light to occur. And it simply willed an exploration of this threshold. So to say infinity has attributes which surpass a willed limited state, like separation, doesn't contradict the idea that there are natural (again, I wouldn't call it structure) but orders to unity, or intelligent infinity. I would say unity, or intelligent infinity, is a perfect synthesis of order and chaos. It is order because is perfect harmony, but it is chaos because it was not a planned order. It is simply the natural attributes of unity. The uncaused causer. The unmoved mover.

So if I'm not speaking sufficiently clear: there are natural attributes to undistorted unity. But they are not created, they are just mathematical naturalistic qualities inherent in the essence of unity. Separation is the more unnatural attribute which is an exploration of falsity. Truth, or unity, really does have a natural order to it. The attributes we experience in the illusion are a distortion of the Original Attributes. We are perceiving the original attributes poorly, and this gives rise to the illusion. Their reality is derived from the original attributes of undistorted infinity. But the One *DID* just naturally have those attributes. Why do we find those attributes "good" (too good to be true that we must assume it can't just naturally be this way)? Because that is what Go(o)d is! Our very notions of what is good were rigged from the start! They were derived from the original substrates of unity, or nonduality. "God is good". And our concept of good is naturally derived from that unity.

"The one undifferentiated intelligent infinity, unpolarized, full and whole, is the macrocosm of the mystery-clad being. We are messengers of the Law of One. Unity, at this approximation of understanding, cannot be specified by any physics but only be activated or potentiated intelligent infinity due to the catalyst of free will. This may be difficult to accept. However, the understandings we have to share begin and end in mystery."

It cannot be specified by physics, but it may be specified, or clarified, by searching the heart.

It's either that or it is turtles all the way down, my friend! And you will always be looking for that next turtle until you find the uncaused causer (unity as opposed to dis-unity).

(03-05-2019, 10:22 PM)Stranger Wrote: anagogy, you have understood precisely what I was saying.

Your claim is that although infinity has attributes, those attributes are inherent in the definition of infinity rather than created.  My point is that this may be so, but it's an assumption and therefore may also not be so.

(03-05-2019, 10:22 PM)Stranger Wrote: What we seem to be a part of here is a consciousness of infinite creative capacity that does not understand itself and therefore has to create to make sense of itself.  If we consider that this is "the whole story", it sounds absurdly suspicious.  It implies a lack that this being has to work to remedy!  It sounds just like what happens when we are born in 3D and don't know our true nature, having therefore to fumble around creating this and that and experiencing our creations, until we figure out the larger story.

(03-05-2019, 10:22 PM)Stranger Wrote: I also don't think that the choice is between "this is all there is" and "turtles all the way down."  All I'm suggesting is that there may be another layer of turtles of which the One is not aware, busy as it is focusing inwards on its own creations.  Beyond that layer - who knows?  But even the existence of that one additional "layer" would recast the entire story into a different perspective.  (Not that it would have any impact on us little sparks!)

Quote:The ‎Book of Glory deals with this question through an imaginary three-sided debate between ‎Jewish philosophers concerning the nature of God, in response to the questions of a Spanish ‎king who wished to convert to Judaism. The first philosopher expressed the classic rationalist ‎position – God was totally invisible and unknowable and whatever any prophets claimed to ‎have ‘seen’ or ‘envisioned’ was a grand illusion. The second philosopher’s explanation, which ‎is taken from the writings of the 12th century Spanish Bible commentator, Abraham Ibn Ezra, ‎is the one that concerns us in this essay. ‎
‎ ‎
‎‘The highest aspect (literally ‘goodness’) of the Glory is attached to the Creator, and it is not ‎a creation. But the aspect of the Glory that faces the creations – the angels and the prophets – ‎they can see it when they direct the human mind to it…And Moshe requested from the ‎Creator to show him the highest aspect of the Glory that faces towards the Creator, which is ‎the absolute highest essence of the Creator – to see (it) And God said: For one who is alive it ‎is not appropriate to see...’ ‎
‎ ‎
The third philosopher agrees with the second on everything except one crucial point. This ‎third opinion is that of Saadia Gaon- that the Glory is a created entity and not an uncreated ‎intermediary between God and the creation. This is possibly, even likely, the crucial point of ‎disagreement between the philosophers and the mystics. ‎
‎ ‎
Analysis ‎
‎ ‎
This idea of the non-created Glory is expanded in the rest of the explanation of the second ‎philosopher. It seems to be taking a middle path in between the two opposing schools of ‎rationalist (Saadia Gaon) and literalist (the Biblical and rabbinic view in which God takes an ‎almost physical form). In this middle path, the Glory is the form God takes, but the Glory is ‎neither identical to God nor is it a creation. So what is it? ‎

More: http://fourquestionsofjudaism.com/5726828727631872

Quote:Hasidei Ashkenaz: 'Debate on the Glory of God'

King: Tell me what you think about the Creator--may God be blessed.

First Sage: What our first teacher said is true: there is a Creator who is not visible, and the things and images (DiMyonot) that the prophets saw are in [their] thoughts, for the Creator causes a thought to enter into their hearts, so that [God] is visible and is imagined (niDMeH) in a particular way, like an illusion. There is a barrier [placed] on humanity so that its eyes cannot see; hence [God] allowed this wondrous thing to be done by magicians, so that [people] should believe this thought. (131)

Second Sage: Truly, we know with our intelligence that there is a Creator, who has no end or measure, but the Glory (kavod) does have an end, and its attachment (devekut) is to the Creator. No creature has the power to see into the place of [that] attachment. Concerning this it says: 'You cannot see My Face' (Exodus 33:20)--which looks toward the Creator's essence. Therefore it does not say: 'A human cannot see My Face and live' but '[A human] cannot see Me [and live],' for the 'Face' looks toward the essence. (133-4)

Thus the Face appeared to the prophets and the Glory [looks] toward the creatures--just as it [looks] toward the essence, and towards [all] creatures, the prophets, the angels and those that ascended to their secret [Enoch, Elijah & the Riders of the Chariot?]. But in the [messianic] future, 'the Glory will appear' and 'they will see' (Isaiah 40:5)--that which [looks] towards the prophets, and the like; and the angels [will see that which looks] towards the Glory that [looks] towards created beings. (134-5)

However, [God] gave the prophets [permission] to see Him, and when they realised that He is the Glory, the greatest level, they fell on their faces, heard the words, and knew that the words [came] from before the Creator--may God be blessed--and not [from] another [being] nor [from] an angel. Thus [the divine] Name and the Face do not [look] towards the essence of the Creator, [but] towards the creatures. (135)

And when it appears (meDaMMeH) to the prophets like this, it is thus like the pupil of the eye and encompasses what it is like(?); and so in a place with windows [and] a shadow [or, a reflection] the shadow/reflection of everything the sun rises over, in water, milk or on a wall, everything is the same (DoMeH leDoMeH). Thus does the Face, and the Glory that [looks] towards [all] Creatures which is like that which [looks] towards the essence, appear to the prophets. Therefore, a person's heart turns upwards, like a person standing and speaking to a friend face to face. (136)

When a person's soul leaves the body, it bears evil corresponding to its sin. If [the person] was perfectly righteous, the soul ascends to the Throne of Glory and adheres to the Upper Throne, 'and may the soul of my lord be bound up (TZRuRah) in the bundle (biTZRoR) of life' (II Samuel 25:29). [The word] biTZRoR has the same numerical value as [the phrase] bakisse' hakodesh ('on the Holy Throne'). [Both equal 498.] And it is written 'God sits on His Holy Throne' (Psalm 47:9). (137)

Third Sage: Then the third sage said: Surely this is so, except that I differ regarding what you say about the Glory in relation to the Creator. This is not so; rather it [the Glory] is created, just as the angels were created, except that the Glory is much more wondrous and distinguished than all the angels. (137-8)

Said the third sage: the Glory is not able to adhere to the Creator. Every creature is created, and the Creator--may God be blessed--does not allow any creatures to see Him. So what the prophets saw was [something] created, a wondrous splendour. (140)

And the heart of the worshipper, with all the heart's substance, should consider the One who is supernal over all, but not consider nor imagine (yiDMeH) any sight in his heart. It is written: 'I will exalt You, O my God, O King' (Psalm 145:1); the Creator--may God be blessed--is above His blessing: 'His Glory is over the heavens' (Psalm 113:4), in order that the thought of the heart be [directed] upwards. Moreover, 'I will exalt You,' 'You are supreme over all gods' (Psalm 97:9). (140-141)

So what the prophets saw is [something] created, a wondrous thing, and what one says he saw, someone next to him would not see. For example, Elisha saw, but [his] servant did not see (cf. II Kings 5:15ff.).... Do not be surprised about this, for we also see that a person cannot look into a book until he bends his head and fixes his eyes on the book, and something that is not near to him seems merely like air to him. But '[God] made His wonders to be remembered' (Psalm 111:4); the one who is highest in [God's] memory sees and the one who asks hears. Yet do not be surprised at the voice that entered the ears of [God's] prophets, while those around them did not hear. When a person puts one end of a straw into the ear of a friend and speaks into the other end, [the friend] hears, but no one else hears. [Thus] one [person] may see visions, while another does not see. Thus some people see [visions] in thumbnails and in the 'archons of the cup', while another person does not. Thus do not be surprised about the prophets. (141)

from Oxford ms. 1567, fols. 8b-9a, in Joseph Dan, Torat HaSod Shel Hasidut Ashkenaz (The Esoteric Theology of Ashkenazi Hasidism) (Jerusalem: Mossad Bialik, 1968), pp.131-141.

http://www.tabick.abel.co.uk/hasidei_ashkenaz.html

(03-07-2019, 06:17 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: If there is something beyond the One, even sixth-density Ra didn't know, or didn't talk about it.

Quote:1.7 ▶ Questioner: [The question was lost because the questioner was sitting too far from the tape recorder to be recorded.]

Ra: I am Ra. Consider, if you will, that the universe is infinite. This has yet to be proven or disproven, but we can assure you that there is no end to your selves, your understanding, what you would call your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creation.

That which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. To have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. In an Infinite Creator there is only unity. You have seen simple examples of unity. You have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. This is a simplistic example of unity.

In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.

(03-07-2019, 06:17 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: If there is something beyond the One, even sixth-density Ra didn't know, or didn't talk about it.

Quote:Creation hath its origin in life unlimited,
Yet for the sake of manifestation
Doth that life descend into the appearance
Of Time and Place,
And that which hath neither end nor beginning
Appeareth to be born,
And to be brought at last to death.
Deluded by this appearance are those ignorant ones
In whom the light of my wisdom hath not yet dawned.
From their delusion springeth a false desire,
And from that false desire is generated unrighteous action.
Yet nothing is performed save by my power,
And I am the real Actor in these deluded ones,
As truly as in any sage.

From the fires of pain and suffering
Kindled by their ignorance,
In my good time shall they come forth,
Cleansed from the dross of illusion,
Resplendent images of my golden self.

9 My creative power is the projection of myself,
And produceth the semblance of another;
But know, O Israel,
That besides me there is none other.
I only am the Knower and the Actor,
The one I AM,
Whether alone and unmanifest,
Or appearing in the multiplicity of created things.

—The Book of Tokens by Paul Foster Case

(03-03-2019, 10:46 AM)Stranger Wrote: The One who started out as an undifferentiated whole still exists within parameters.  At the very least, the One exists; is capable of creation; capable of experiencing itself; has at least one motive - eg, the motive to explore itself and its infinite capacities.  It has capacities.  It exists in bliss rather than just "exists."

In other words: The One has a *structure* inherent in it, even at the highest level, apart from all of its creation/illusion.  It is not just an undifferentiated amorphous blob of Being - not even at its very core. 

The One did not "just happen" to have these attributes.

So then why does The One have these attributes in the first place?

What if The One is also, itself, a (hyper-)veiled part of a larger Reality?

Quote:"If intelligent infinity can be told to be 'discovering' something, it can possibly be that other thing. Which is separated from it. Which can be a lack of potential, or a lack of intelligence, judging from how infinite intelligence is differentiated from infinity. The simple reason is that infinite intelligence and its counterpart must complete each other to become infinity."