(04-20-2020, 04:02 PM)Infinite Wrote: No. I see it like you.

I will try to explain my vision on this topic, trying my best to base myself on LOO.

I classify as dimension the same that Ra called sub-density / plane. Within our third density there are 7 sub-densities / planes / dimensions, within each sub-density there are 7 sub-sub-densities / sub-plans / sub-dimensions and so it increases infinitely. These 7 divisions are analogous / representations of the 7 rays and also of the 7 densities. Therefore, the dimensions of the third density are infinite and when I use the term fourth dimension it is as if I were referring to a color. This color itself can be divided into infinite frequencies or infinite tones. I do not classify these sub-densities / planes / dimensions as simply spatial and temporal perceptions. A more precise term is vibratory frequency.

Now, these 7 sub-densities / dimensions / planes are divided into space / time and time / space. In esotericism, this difference is called outer planes and inner plans. I suppose you understand the difference between space / time and time / space.

Space / time is where incarnations take place, catalysis is experienced and lessons are learned. Physically we can consider that this space / time is that whose photons that make up physical matter (since everything that exists is formed by a universal substance, Ra called it Light, the ancients called it Ether or Akasha) vibrate at a speed that approaches the speed of light. That is why physicists say that the borderline speed of the universe is the speed of light. Ra said that when a ship approaches the speed of light it disappears from that reality and temporarily exists in time / space. This is how the slingshot effect works.

Time / space is where healing and revision of an incarnation takes place. Time approaches infinity and that is why time is no longer linear, that is, it is not counted every second, but it can be accessed as a whole. It's like opening any page in a book instead of reading each page sequentially. It is my hypothesis that each plane vibrates faster and faster and therefore is getting closer and closer to zero time or infinite time.

In my view, dimensions 1-3 form the physical plane, while dimensions 4-7 form the inner planes.

(04-20-2020, 04:02 PM)Infinite Wrote: What I can assume at this moment, is that as entities from first to third density live in the same environment, the difference is in the perception and the way in which they can interact with that environment. From the fourth onwards, the environments are different, more subtle and the bodies of the entities are also more subtle than ours. However, I have no idea if 4D entities can see 5D and 6D in the same environment as animals can see us.

Quote:13.20 Questioner: Is there any physical difference between first and second density? For instance, if I could see a second-density planet and a first-density planet side by side, in my present condition, could I see both of them? Would they be both visible?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. All of the octave of your densities would be clearly visible were not the fourth through the seventh freely choosing not to be visible.

(04-20-2020, 04:02 PM)Infinite Wrote: I gave my opinion on this above. Just a detail: taking into account all the literature on the astral plane, it is a fact that on the astral plane a dimension is added. This is one of the reasons why I prefer to consider it as our fourth dimension.

(04-20-2020, 04:02 PM)Infinite Wrote: Time in time / space is like I said spherical. I would say that it does not make sense to speak in dimensions of time, but of an eternal present.

(04-20-2020, 05:39 PM)flofrog Wrote: but time in time/space seen as spherical is a pretty good image within our limited words  

(04-20-2020, 04:02 PM)Infinite Wrote: Really enlightening chapter on fourth dimension. It's from the book "The Astral Body" by Arthur E. Powell:

(04-20-2020, 10:33 AM)the Wrote: just to share what i heard from this video;
we're in 3D(Dimension) earth now, will ascend to 5D(dimension). 3D,5D co-exist all the times.
in the transition process, there's a lot of fluctuation, which is 4D(Dimension)

this is the video has some diagrams which explains this clearly (in my humble opinion)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXipt-Vqfik&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR0WOfjfa1LGN-I8yD0jRQ-nZYYWgfe5ADudXOaMzQXj2g1KBIo2R4kYmn4

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: In my view, if we "erase" all densities, space/time and time/space continue to exist albeit in a different form but there is still space and time.

In your view, there will be much more numbers of space and time (certainly more than 6/6). And if we "erase" all densities in your view, there will be no space, no time, no space/time and time/space because they are a part of densities.

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: I believe this is another area where our views differ. In my view, all densities share the same space and time and we can see 4d/5d/6d but in reality we cannot only because they have chosen not to (Ra 13.20). 

Quote:13.20 Questioner: Is there any physical difference between first and second density? For instance, if I could see a second-density planet and a first-density planet side by side, in my present condition, could I see both of them? Would they be both visible?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. All of the octave of your densities would be clearly visible were not the fourth through the seventh freely choosing not to be visible.

Quote:The fourth density is, by choice, not visible to third density. It is possible for fourth density to be visible. However, it is not the choice of the fourth-density entity to be visible due to the necessity for concentration upon a rather difficult vibrational complex which is the third density you experience.

Quote:From the sixth dimension, we are capable of manipulating, by thought, the intelligent infinity present in each particle of light or distorted light so that we were able to clothe ourselves in a replica visible in the third densityof our mind/body/spirit complexes in the sixth density.

Quote:The third-density conditions are not hospitable to the life-forms of your peoples. The fifth and sixth dimensions of that planetary sphere are quite conducive to growing/learning/teaching.

Quote:As fourth density occurs there is a new planet and new physical vehicle system gradually expressing itself and the parameters of bellicose actions become those of thought rather than manifested weapons.

Quote:In some cases there is a kind of battle. This is a battle of wills and the weapons consist of the light that can be formed by each contender.

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: In your view, as each density has their sub sub densities of space and time, beings in different densities lives in different space/time and thus the issue of how different densities can see each other arise. But I believe there are the possible ways to deal with this issue but personally i have not thought of any.

Quote:The space/time and time/space distinctions, as you understand them, do not hold sway except in third density. However, fourth, fifth, and to some extent, sixth, work within some system of polarized space/time and time/space.

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: I am fine with defining dimension as a sub-density and calling the astral plane the 4th dimension. However, by redefining the meaning of dimension, it is no longer the same as that of the "scientific" dimension. Thus I think contradictions arise when I see what is an attempt to combine both definitions.
I would think there will be no contradictions if the number of space and time is left ambiguous and thus a mystery and I am fine with this approach as well.

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: As I mentioned to claim to see the tesseract in the astral plane suggests that there are 4 dimensions of space. However, to me, this does not imply that the astral plane is the fourth dimensional in the scientific sense, nor is this "4 dimensions" identical to the 4 dimensions of your view for our definitions of dimension is different.

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: I believe there are other explanations that could allow one to "see" the interior of a cube - one way by invoking the concept of the Law of One, another way is that it can be done in time/space (i.e. my view of time/space being 3 space and 3 time, but which also includes the astral and inner planes).

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: It would seem his definition of dimension is more similar to mine than yours. I'm sorry to say I do not find the chapter convincing either scientifically or spiritually. He could have called the astral plane the fifth dimension and let time be the fourth dimension and it would achieve the same purpose that he wanted, the ordering is not important.

(04-22-2020, 10:48 PM)Infinite Wrote: Your second statement is closer to what I believe. Because space / time and time / space is what densities are, shall we say, organized. Besides the fact that Ra said that sub-density is equal to plane. Now, if Ra says that within each density there are infinite divisions, what would those divisions be for you?

(04-22-2020, 10:48 PM)Infinite Wrote: What Ra meant was that entities other than 3D could "get thicker" and show themselves to us:

Quote:The fourth density is, by choice, not visible to third density. It is possible for fourth density to be visible. However, it is not the choice of the fourth-density entity to be visible due to the necessity for concentration upon a rather difficult vibrational complex which is the third density you experience.

(12.17)
That is, the "native" fourth density vibration is invisible to us, as it is of a higher frequency of vibration. It is the same with our inner planes.

(04-22-2020, 10:48 PM)Infinite Wrote: Let me share something. In many traditions (and in the LOO itself) it is said that the microcosm is a reflection of the macrocosm. So it seems to me that the lower 3 chakras are somewhat related. In man they form the basis of what we call mundane. Thus, similarly, the first 3 densities are of the "material" or "mundane" type. The fourth density, like the heart chakra, marks the transition from the mundane to what I call "semi-spiritual" (since the upper triad begins at the throat chakra). That is exactly the nature of the astral plane, there are still forms, but in a more subtle state than in the physical. The mental plane is already a spiritual plane itself. This is one of the reasons that I believe that these first 3 densities exist in the same environment, separate from the others.

(04-22-2020, 10:48 PM)Infinite Wrote: Speaking of the fourth density itself, in my varied studies I came to the conclusion that the fourth density is similar to what we call the astral plane. Remember that Ra said that the green ray's body is the astral body. So, 4D's environment has to be compatible with this body. Another detail is Ra's description that the fourth density is an environment where thought is used instead of mechanics (another characteristic of the astral plane):

(04-22-2020, 10:48 PM)Infinite Wrote:

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: In your view, as each density has their sub sub densities of space and time, beings in different densities lives in different space/time and thus the issue of how different densities can see each other arise. But I believe there are the possible ways to deal with this issue but personally i have not thought of any.

This is easily understood through the concept of true color. The true color green is not the same as the true color yellow. It's an octave up. So, both cannot have the same sub-octaves, because the color green is of a higher nature. In addition, Ra said that up to sixth density there is some kind of space / time and time / space:

Quote:The space/time and time/space distinctions, as you understand them, do not hold sway except in third density. However, fourth, fifth, and to some extent, sixth, work within some system of polarized space/time and time/space.
(57.33)

(04-22-2020, 10:48 PM)Infinite Wrote: Well, it could be that Leadbeater and others are wrong in that definition. But you will find most esoteric and spiritualist sources classifying the astral plane as the fourth dimension. And I think it would be scientific to call time the fourth dimension, when the term dimension refers more to space / locality.

(04-22-2020, 10:48 PM)Infinite Wrote: I suggest forgetting the term "scientific". Our physics is still archaic in not accepting multidimensionality due to not understanding the importance of vibration. So, it is not entirely reliable.

(04-22-2020, 10:48 PM)Infinite Wrote:

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: I believe there are other explanations that could allow one to "see" the interior of a cube - one way by invoking the concept of the Law of One, another way is that it can be done in time/space (i.e. my view of time/space being 3 space and 3 time, but which also includes the astral and inner planes). 

I did not understand this part.

(04-22-2020, 10:09 AM)keith Wrote: It would seem his definition of dimension is more similar to mine than yours. I'm sorry to say I do not find the chapter convincing either scientifically or spiritually. He could have called the astral plane the fifth dimension and let time be the fourth dimension and it would achieve the same purpose that he wanted, the ordering is not important.

The importance lies precisely in the fact that in the astral plane a fourth coordinate is added.

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: To me, the infinite divisions in space/time are different from the infinite divisions in time/space. Beyond this, I could only speculate that the divisions in space/time correspond to the different kinds of people we meet in the world (From the more "survival oriented" to the more "angelic" people). And the divisions in time/space correspond to the different inner planes (Based on what was mentioned in the LOO books: astral, devachanic, etc). 

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: What I was trying to point out previously was that because we are able to see them when they allow it, that this indicates we share the same space as them. Though this being a mechanical point, I think it is perhaps not as useful.

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: Yes I have some knowledge of the traditional and spiritual beliefs that which you shared and agree that it is a helpful perspective and that it supports your view. Personally, I do not see such a distinction between the densities other than higher densities are of a higher vibration and find they are all equally sacred to the Creator. As such to me, for my view, the underlying structure of all densities in this octave are the same.

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: Are you saying that the astral plane is the fourth density?

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: It is not entirely correct, but it is also responsible for many of our existing technology, and thus living here on Earth, I feel I cannot dismiss it. That is my personal view, it is not in total conflict with my view and so I did not disregard it. But I agree that we should stop discussing about the scientific aspect.

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: First possible explanation:
This is based on extrapolation from my own experience rather than what Ra or Q'uo said. There was a time when I was lying on the bed that I felt that I could sense the sky outside through the roof and it made my felt quite naked and uncomfortable. What this suggest to me was that it may be possible that a properly trained entity would be able to have conscious awareness of the unity of reality and through this connection be able to observe without obstruction. We can't see the inside of a box because light does not reach the inside, but with awareness and connection with all particles within the box, we can "see" the interior.

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: Second possible explanation:
In my view, my interpretation of time/space is that time is the active portion and space is "fluid". An analogy is a video player but which has 3 time sliders to see all possible past/future. Because space is "fluid", one will be able to seemingly "pass" through objects and see the inside. I think an analogy is that of the no-clip mode in 3D games or 3D programs, where you can fly through walls and see the interiors. 
The description is part intuition and part interpretation from the LOO material.
I think the description of the result is the same as yours, except that there are still only 3 spatial dimensions in mine. 

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote:

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: To me, the infinite divisions in space/time are different from the infinite divisions in time/space. Beyond this, I could only speculate that the divisions in space/time correspond to the different kinds of people we meet in the world (From the more "survival oriented" to the more "angelic" people). And the divisions in time/space correspond to the different inner planes (Based on what was mentioned in the LOO books: astral, devachanic, etc). 

So, that's exactly how I think.

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: What I was trying to point out previously was that because we are able to see them when they allow it, that this indicates we share the same space as them. Though this being a mechanical point, I think it is perhaps not as useful.

So, my point is: the environment and all "objects" of the fourth density exist in another range of vibration. Just like each TV channel there are different bands. Just as the astral plane exists in a different vibration range from that of our physical plane.

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote: I did not say that they are not sacred. I just said that its characteristics are distinct. The first three densities exist to prepare the entity for choice (to create spiritual viability). The rest of the densities are to refine this choice, even so it makes sense to exist separate from the first three.

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote: No, but that is the representation of the fourth density in our third density. The fourth density would be a kind of more complex astral plane.

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote: Yes, I also see it that way. In fact, it would be interesting to research if there is any scientific "debate" about the fourth spatial dimension (tesseract) x time as the fourth dimension.

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote:

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: First possible explanation:
This is based on extrapolation from my own experience rather than what Ra or Q'uo said. There was a time when I was lying on the bed that I felt that I could sense the sky outside through the roof and it made my felt quite naked and uncomfortable. What this suggest to me was that it may be possible that a properly trained entity would be able to have conscious awareness of the unity of reality and through this connection be able to observe without obstruction. We can't see the inside of a box because light does not reach the inside, but with awareness and connection with all particles within the box, we can "see" the interior.

It is difficult to judge this experience. In the Leadbeater's book he talks about a clairvoyance below astral clairvoyance, etheric clairvoyance, which allows you to see through objects (like x-ray vision). However, I don't know if it's related to your experience.

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote:

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: Second possible explanation:
In my view, my interpretation of time/space is that time is the active portion and space is "fluid". An analogy is a video player but which has 3 time sliders to see all possible past/future. Because space is "fluid", one will be able to seemingly "pass" through objects and see the inside. I think an analogy is that of the no-clip mode in 3D games or 3D programs, where you can fly through walls and see the interiors. 
The description is part intuition and part interpretation from the LOO material.
I think the description of the result is the same as yours, except that there are still only 3 spatial dimensions in mine. 

Now I understand, although I disagree.

(04-25-2020, 12:56 PM)keith Wrote:

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote:

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: To me, the infinite divisions in space/time are different from the infinite divisions in time/space. Beyond this, I could only speculate that the divisions in space/time correspond to the different kinds of people we meet in the world (From the more "survival oriented" to the more "angelic" people). And the divisions in time/space correspond to the different inner planes (Based on what was mentioned in the LOO books: astral, devachanic, etc). 

So, that's exactly how I think.

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: What I was trying to point out previously was that because we are able to see them when they allow it, that this indicates we share the same space as them. Though this being a mechanical point, I think it is perhaps not as useful.

So, my point is: the environment and all "objects" of the fourth density exist in another range of vibration. Just like each TV channel there are different bands. Just as the astral plane exists in a different vibration range from that of our physical plane.

Yes, I agree with you, but I think this discussion arose as our views differ on how it relates to space and time. 

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote: I did not say that they are not sacred. I just said that its characteristics are distinct. The first three densities exist to prepare the entity for choice (to create spiritual viability). The rest of the densities are to refine this choice, even so it makes sense to exist separate from the first three.

I agree that what you said seems consistent and supports your view, but personally I do not see it as a sufficient reason, for me, to have a separation from the first three densities. It is also not required for my view.

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote: No, but that is the representation of the fourth density in our third density. The fourth density would be a kind of more complex astral plane.

I would agree that it is a helpful way to visualize fourth density, given that we are living in third density and subjected to its various limitations. 

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote: Yes, I also see it that way. In fact, it would be interesting to research if there is any scientific "debate" about the fourth spatial dimension (tesseract) x time as the fourth dimension.

I am sure there would be. Many scientists has agreed that there are still many things they do not understand about time. I think some scientists are trying to develop theories that exclude time as a dimension. But given that general relativity, which established time as the 4th dimension and makes gps technology possible, is still one of the important cornerstone of physics, any new theories will have to match the achievements of it.
 
I think one of the more popular theory is string theory/M-theory which models particles as one dimensional vibrating strings (sounds familiar?) instead of the conventional zero dimensional points, and which predicted that the world should have 10 or 11 dimensions. They have their own explanations of why we only observed 3 space+1 time but I find it rather unconvincing. However, it is still theoretical and they have not found any experimental proof of the theory afaik, unlike the two currently accepted theories general relativity and quantum mechanics. 

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote:

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: First possible explanation:
This is based on extrapolation from my own experience rather than what Ra or Q'uo said. There was a time when I was lying on the bed that I felt that I could sense the sky outside through the roof and it made my felt quite naked and uncomfortable. What this suggest to me was that it may be possible that a properly trained entity would be able to have conscious awareness of the unity of reality and through this connection be able to observe without obstruction. We can't see the inside of a box because light does not reach the inside, but with awareness and connection with all particles within the box, we can "see" the interior.

It is difficult to judge this experience. In the Leadbeater's book he talks about a clairvoyance below astral clairvoyance, etheric clairvoyance, which allows you to see through objects (like x-ray vision). However, I don't know if it's related to your experience.

I agree it is questionable how my experience might relate to Leadbeater's experience, but it is sufficient to allow me to believe that his experiences are possible. I would go with the second explanation as the more probable one though.

(04-24-2020, 03:45 PM)Infinite Wrote:

(04-24-2020, 10:18 AM)keith Wrote: Second possible explanation:
In my view, my interpretation of time/space is that time is the active portion and space is "fluid". An analogy is a video player but which has 3 time sliders to see all possible past/future. Because space is "fluid", one will be able to seemingly "pass" through objects and see the inside. I think an analogy is that of the no-clip mode in 3D games or 3D programs, where you can fly through walls and see the interiors. 
The description is part intuition and part interpretation from the LOO material.
I think the description of the result is the same as yours, except that there are still only 3 spatial dimensions in mine. 

Now I understand, although I disagree.

Yes, because it is part of my view which disagree with your view.