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Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - turtledude23 - 11-15-2011
Some people have shittier lives than others. Sometimes because of internal factors within their control, sometimes because of external factors beyond their control, and sometimes because of some hard to define grey area in between. The most extreme example of catalyst I can think of is trauma induced mind control (http://secretarcana.com/hiddenknowledge/monarch-programming-mind-control/). Either life is fair, or it isn't. If it is fair it's possible it's fair in some way beyond our comprehension, if it isn't then there isn't much we can do about it and have to make to most of our lives anyways. The only way I could see it being fair is if throughout reincarnation people have their external factors average out e.g. if they have a terrible life one time, they'll have an easier life another time. Or I suppose if a life is chosen pre-incarnatively the soul could see wisdom in having alot of shitty lives, but its hard to see that wisdom while suffering, and that would raise the question: are the free will decisions of an entity not behind the veil more important than the free will decisions of that same entity behind the veil? Or maybe it isn't hard to see wisdom if one suffers enough. I have suffered alot, but I assume many people in the world have suffered far more than I have, so I don't really know what it really entails, I do know suffering is most likely to bring about change in ones self, in either polarity, but I also know balance and moderation are important: too much suffering could bias even the most whole-heartedly STO inclined soul towards STS, insanity or suicide - I think. Your thoughts?
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - zenmaster - 11-15-2011
One doesn't have polarizing conditions for either orientation if one is constantly engaged in some fear-based survival mode - it's like a black hole. One must be provided the conditions which allow for development and use of the will.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - Bring4th_Austin - 11-15-2011
(11-15-2011, 01:07 AM)zenmaster Wrote: One doesn't have polarizing conditions for either orientation if one is constantly engaged in some fear-based survival mode - it's like a black hole. One must be provided the conditions which allow for development and use of the will.
Then how can we explain/justify an incarnation with such conditions? That's something I struggle with in subscribing to spiritual beliefs.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - Oceania - 11-15-2011
me too.
it's unfair.
freewill behind the veil should be the most important law. that noone's free will be infringed. I invoke 3rd rule of Fight Club.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - turtledude23 - 11-15-2011
Hmm, it seems we all agree that how our world works right now is unfair. If the creator wants to experience itself in every possible way then I suppose that would also include unfairly suffering. Maybe the really bad stuff only happens to people who haven't chosen their polarity yet. In any case I'm glad it doesn't happen to me.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - B61zz13 - 11-15-2011
Well, based on what I read on channelings, it's said that we choose our life even before we take our first breath of life, but it's possible to "bite off more than you can chew" in choosing our lessons to learn in the period of incarnation, and even choose to learn those lessons at another time with some sort of compromise with your Oversoul.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - Namaste - 11-15-2011
(11-15-2011, 01:55 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote:(11-15-2011, 01:07 AM)zenmaster Wrote: One doesn't have polarizing conditions for either orientation if one is constantly engaged in some fear-based survival mode - it's like a black hole. One must be provided the conditions which allow for development and use of the will.
Then how can we explain/justify an incarnation with such conditions? That's something I struggle with in subscribing to spiritual beliefs.
We must always remember that each are learning specific lessons.
From our own perspective, many others (billions, in fact) are living a life of 'lesser' conditions. But, therein lies the lessons of third density. To deny that experience is to deny the evolution of a soul, and to deny aspects of oneself.
If we are indeed Wanderers, we would have lived countless lives in third density, struggling just as the others we have compassion for. In those lives, there would have been Wanderers helping us, just as we help others here.
Not to mention, souls looking to experience aspects of the Creation, in which to merge and become one with it, would find such harsh lives as useful. The more a soul experiences, the closer it is to understand the infinite nature of experience.
In short, the Creator/Cosmos is infinite. By definition, that must include darkness, as without the darkness it would not be infinite. Souls which strive towards the union with Creation must experience all aspects of it, both light and dark. Hence we must accept it and offer ourselves to those who call for help.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - AnthroHeart - 11-15-2011
Is it possible to help others if we are ourselves are not in balance?
I guess though we can't be completely out of balance.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - godwide_void - 11-15-2011
Every circumstance of every event in your incarnation, all forms of catalyst, would not have been programmed into your cycle of existence if they were not necessary for your chosen path of growth and agreed upon prior to entering this life. All catalyst serves various purposes. Perhaps one event is there to reinforce an ideal or notion you had, or to bring into question an aspect of your life you need to address, perhaps the catalyst is karmic alleviation, or karmic punishment, and more often than not the catalyst and experiences you undergo manifest due to whatever mental distortions you have developed.
It is possible, in a cycle of experience, to begin to take the reigns and begin setting in motion a reprogramming of your existence. After all, you are the Creator. Simply develop the corresponding attitude, disposition and approach, and you will begin to see that the reality you are creating is more in line with what you seek and desire rather than what you are thrust into.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - AnthroHeart - 11-15-2011
Good points Godwide. Just have to overcome the unsettling amount of synchronicities that happen when one begins to be a conscious creator.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - UnifyingFactor - 11-15-2011
It seems to me that fairness is not an absolute, it's more like a subjective judgment of a particular experience. You might say you're suffering, I might say you are blessed. Considering that all catalyst is neutral then to say one is fair and one is not would imply separation, rather than unification.
More notably... if your conscious mind were developing a bias toward an unintended direction than initially desired, then your higher self would need to program in the appropriate strength of catalyst to get you back on track. If not used efficiently then you will be adjusted over and over until you do.
The stronger the catalyst is the more potential you have to do work in consciousness and polarization. Meaning you are blessed.
and :idea:
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - 3DMonkey - 11-15-2011
(11-15-2011, 02:02 AM)Oceania Wrote: me too.
it's unfair.
freewill behind the veil should be the most important law. that noone's free will be infringed. I invoke 3rd rule of Fight Club.
Hey! They didn't establish the 8th rule. Unless this all our first night!!!
(11-15-2011, 12:53 AM)turtledude23 Wrote: Some people have shittier lives than others. Sometimes because of internal factors within their control, sometimes because of external factors beyond their control, and sometimes because of some hard to define grey area in between. The most extreme example of catalyst I can think of is trauma induced mind control (http://secretarcana.com/hiddenknowledge/monarch-programming-mind-control/). Either life is fair, or it isn't. If it is fair it's possible it's fair in some way beyond our comprehension, if it isn't then there isn't much we can do about it and have to make to most of our lives anyways. The only way I could see it being fair is if throughout reincarnation people have their external factors average out e.g. if they have a terrible life one time, they'll have an easier life another time. Or I suppose if a life is chosen pre-incarnatively the soul could see wisdom in having alot of shitty lives, but its hard to see that wisdom while suffering, and that would raise the question: are the free will decisions of an entity not behind the veil more important than the free will decisions of that same entity behind the veil? Or maybe it isn't hard to see wisdom if one suffers enough. I have suffered alot, but I assume many people in the world have suffered far more than I have, so I don't really know what it really entails, I do know suffering is most likely to bring about change in ones self, in either polarity, but I also know balance and moderation are important: too much suffering could bias even the most whole-heartedly STO inclined soul towards STS, insanity or suicide - I think. Your thoughts?
Life is certainly not easy. I suppose that is unfair. I would certainly choose easy over this. Maybe!! The grass is always greener
. All this spiritual stuff is about coming to terms with it, to find that "happy place" in our mind.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - Namaste - 11-15-2011
(11-15-2011, 01:29 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: Is it possible to help others if we are ourselves are not in balance?
I guess though we can't be completely out of balance.
A very good question, and I don't think the answer is black or white. Sometimes one can act in ways which seem entirely out of balance, yet ultimately help someone in very profound ways (especially long term).
I do think however, that a more balanced person can offer help of a more specific nature, and will have more tools in which to empower another (I tend to equate balance with wisdom - personal experience of truth).
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - Diana - 11-15-2011
(11-15-2011, 05:39 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: Life is certainly not easy. I suppose that is unfair. I would certainly choose easy over this. Maybe!! The grass is always greener
All this spiritual stuff is about coming to terms with it, to find that "happy place" in our mind.
I agree. I will add though, that at some point we learn to consciously create.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - 3DMonkey - 11-15-2011
[/quote]
(11-15-2011, 06:14 PM)Namaste Wrote:I like this story better than the next.(11-15-2011, 01:29 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: Is it possible to help others if we are ourselves are not in balance?
I guess though we can't be completely out of balance.
A very good question, and I don't think the answer is black or white. Sometimes one can act in ways which seem entirely out of balance, yet ultimately help someone in very profound ways (especially long term).
(11-15-2011, 06:14 PM)Namaste Wrote: I do think however, that a more balanced person can offer help of a more specific nature, and will have more tools in which to empower another (I tend to equate balance with wisdom - personal experience of truth).I think this is the method that can be documented, so it makes one feel "wise". It can be just as effective, but not necessarily more effective. IMO.
(11-15-2011, 06:15 PM)Diana Wrote:(11-15-2011, 05:39 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: Life is certainly not easy. I suppose that is unfair. I would certainly choose easy over this. Maybe!! The grass is always greener
All this spiritual stuff is about coming to terms with it, to find that "happy place" in our mind.
I agree. I will add though, that at some point we learn to consciously create.
I'd love to read more about your views on this. A fresh view.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - Oceania - 11-15-2011
the 8th rule is the worst. we shouldn't have to participate in parts of creation that we don't want to. that's WRONG.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - Namaste - 11-15-2011
(11-15-2011, 06:21 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: I think this is the method that can be documented, so it makes one feel "wise". It can be just as effective, but not necessarily more effective. IMO.
Agreed, sometimes personal experience is what the doctor ordered, not the words from another. Also, an experience that worked for one, may not work as well, if at all, for another, as their lessons could be entirely different.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - zenmaster - 11-15-2011
(11-15-2011, 01:55 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote:If you're new to the game, you're going to be learning survival oriented lessons. If you're more experience, you're going to be programming your own lessons which may be attempting to bite off more than you can chew. Some lives experience with heavy catalyst/struggle can greatly accelerate evolution as opposed to an "easy life" - allowing one to go far beyond "harvestability" . A lot of the difficulties experienced are actually in the personal mind and due to misunderstandings (biases) that one is being confronted with. You can program a life in such a manner as to attempt to alleviate many biases. Too much demanded, too much challenge, and you often wind up yelling at "the Creator" in despair, asking 'why' or 'why me'? I've grown to like it when that happens, as it usually means I've come to a point where I can apply honesty.(11-15-2011, 01:07 AM)zenmaster Wrote: One doesn't have polarizing conditions for either orientation if one is constantly engaged in some fear-based survival mode - it's like a black hole. One must be provided the conditions which allow for development and use of the will.
Then how can we explain/justify an incarnation with such conditions? That's something I struggle with in subscribing to spiritual beliefs.
There are things like maps and plans, as Ra discusses. The psyche itself is a lot like a landscape. If and when one starts to take responsibility for their lives - they may start to see this map and that plan. Metaphysical principles begin to aid the understanding (or not aid, if the intuition is abused). "Faith" sort of replaces hope, so with that there is no intermediate idea-based justifications sought for "what should be".
(11-15-2011, 01:29 PM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: Is it possible to help others if we are ourselves are not in balance?You can always offer some opportunity to another, regardless of balance. The more free of distortions with regard to what is being offered, the more viable the opportunity probably. After all, you must be able to recognize what opportunity apparently needs to be offered and that ability to recognize requires some balance in the first place.
I guess though we can't be completely out of balance.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - 3DMonkey - 11-15-2011
Zen is working on a trifecta to tonight!
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - godwide_void - 11-16-2011
(11-15-2011, 07:06 PM)Oceania Wrote: the 8th rule is the worst. we shouldn't have to participate in parts of creation that we don't want to. that's WRONG.
Think again...
Quote:In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are.
This is the Law of One.
Sound familiar?
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - yossarian - 11-16-2011
Fairness is a human concept, not a metaphysical principle, not a law of creation.
Life isn't fair, creation isn't fair, none of it is fair. People get what they ask for. It is hard to see how people would choose suffering, and yet this is precisely what they do. The very fact that it is possible that people in the midst of suffering cannot see that they chose the suffering is a kind of ultimately mystery of our nature, our nature as creators, our nature as One Infinite Creator.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - turtledude23 - 11-16-2011
(11-16-2011, 09:42 PM)yossarian Wrote: Fairness is a human concept, not a metaphysical principle, not a law of creation.
Life isn't fair, creation isn't fair, none of it is fair. People get what they ask for. It is hard to see how people would choose suffering, and yet this is precisely what they do. The very fact that it is possible that people in the midst of suffering cannot see that they chose the suffering is a kind of ultimately mystery of our nature, our nature as creators, our nature as One Infinite Creator.
But you don't know that for sure, maybe they don't ask for it. And asking for something before incarnation without the veil, or "asking" for something unconsciously, is not the same thing as consciously wanting something.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - zenmaster - 11-16-2011
(11-16-2011, 09:42 PM)yossarian Wrote: Fairness is a human concept, not a metaphysical principle, not a law of creation.An idea of circumstantial fairness is a human concept which is limited, as in:
"...This is not a dimension of knowing, even subjectively, due to the lack of overview of cosmic and other in-pourings which affect each and every situation which produces catalyst."
"83.13 Questioner: I would say that a very high percentage of the laws and restrictions within what we call our legal system are of a nature of enslavement of which I just spoke. Would you agree with this?
Ra: I am Ra. It is a necessary balance to the intention of law, which is to protect, that the result would encompass an equal distortion towards imprisonment. Therefore, we may say that your supposition is correct. This is not to denigrate those who, in green and blue-ray energies, sought to free a peaceable people from the bonds of chaos but only to point out the inevitable consequences of codification of response which does not recognize the uniqueness of each and every situation within your experience."
(11-16-2011, 09:42 PM)yossarian Wrote: Life isn't fair, creation isn't fair, none of it is fair.Life, creation, all of it is 100% fair and fool-proof. Circumstantial comparisons and the imagination allow it to be seen as unfair, where "unfair" = "what I think I don't want vs what I think should be".
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - yossarian - 11-16-2011
(11-16-2011, 10:19 PM)zenmaster Wrote:(11-16-2011, 09:42 PM)yossarian Wrote: Life isn't fair, creation isn't fair, none of it is fair.Life, creation, all of it is 100% fair and fool-proof. Circumstantial comparisons and the imagination allow it to be seen as unfair, where "unfair" = "what I think I don't want vs what I think should be".
If you stop using conventional word definitions and understandings, it's possible to argue anything.
Humans consider it unfair when one person is born to poverty while another is born to wealth. This is a human definition, this is widely regarded as unfair by humans, therefore from our perspective unfairness exists.
From the ultimate perspective everything looks fair, but that ultimate perspective does not answer the human question about unfairness.
Basically I think you're context switching with this comment. Context switching can cause a lot of confusion and appear antagonistic. Of course, Zen masters don't mind causing confusion.
(11-16-2011, 10:18 PM)turtledude23 Wrote:(11-16-2011, 09:42 PM)yossarian Wrote: Fairness is a human concept, not a metaphysical principle, not a law of creation.
Life isn't fair, creation isn't fair, none of it is fair. People get what they ask for. It is hard to see how people would choose suffering, and yet this is precisely what they do. The very fact that it is possible that people in the midst of suffering cannot see that they chose the suffering is a kind of ultimately mystery of our nature, our nature as creators, our nature as One Infinite Creator.
But you don't know that for sure, maybe they don't ask for it. And asking for something before incarnation without the veil, or "asking" for something unconsciously, is not the same thing as consciously wanting something.
It's just a fact of reality that our unconscious runs the show. The conscious mind is a tiny little fleck that is really just along for the ride.
You can started shedding light on the unconscious, making it conscious, and then you start to see how you have been choosing your life.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - zenmaster - 11-16-2011
(11-16-2011, 10:36 PM)yossarian Wrote:(11-16-2011, 10:19 PM)zenmaster Wrote:(11-16-2011, 09:42 PM)yossarian Wrote: Life isn't fair, creation isn't fair, none of it is fair.Life, creation, all of it is 100% fair and fool-proof. Circumstantial comparisons and the imagination allow it to be seen as unfair, where "unfair" = "what I think I don't want vs what I think should be".
If you stop using conventional word definitions and understandings, it's possible to argue anything.
Humans consider it unfair when one person is born to poverty while another is born to wealth. This is a human definition, this is widely regarded as unfair by humans, therefore from our perspective unfairness exists.
From the ultimate perspective everything looks fair, but that ultimate perspective does not answer the human question about unfairness.
Basically I think you're context switching with this comment. Context switching can cause a lot of confusion and appear antagonistic. Of course, Zen masters don't mind causing confusion.
I'm a human and think it's all fair. So, guess you'd be wrong. From your perspective, it's not fair, from mine it is. Not sure how there has to be an argument, but Yoss arians like to identify with the mass mind.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - yossarian - 11-17-2011
(11-16-2011, 10:43 PM)zenmaster Wrote:(11-16-2011, 10:36 PM)yossarian Wrote:(11-16-2011, 10:19 PM)zenmaster Wrote:(11-16-2011, 09:42 PM)yossarian Wrote: Life isn't fair, creation isn't fair, none of it is fair.Life, creation, all of it is 100% fair and fool-proof. Circumstantial comparisons and the imagination allow it to be seen as unfair, where "unfair" = "what I think I don't want vs what I think should be".
If you stop using conventional word definitions and understandings, it's possible to argue anything.
Humans consider it unfair when one person is born to poverty while another is born to wealth. This is a human definition, this is widely regarded as unfair by humans, therefore from our perspective unfairness exists.
From the ultimate perspective everything looks fair, but that ultimate perspective does not answer the human question about unfairness.
Basically I think you're context switching with this comment. Context switching can cause a lot of confusion and appear antagonistic. Of course, Zen masters don't mind causing confusion.
I'm a human and think it's all fair. So, guess you'd be wrong. From your perspective, it's not fair, from mine it is. Not sure how there has to be an argument, but Yoss arians like to identify with the mass mind.
I literally meant Zen Masters. Like, Masters of Zen. Just a different approach to modeling reality.
What is the sound of one hand clapping?
I don't identify with the mass mind, I just use their words when speaking to them. So they know what I'm saying. It's the Hindu approach, you are taking the Zen approach. I get it.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - zenmaster - 11-17-2011
What's the conventional, human definition of "fair"?
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - turtledude23 - 11-17-2011
(11-17-2011, 01:00 AM)yossarian Wrote: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooj1noUU2NM
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - yossarian - 11-17-2011
(11-17-2011, 01:23 AM)zenmaster Wrote: What's the conventional, human definition of "fair"?
It's a complicated word but I think most people use it to mean equal treatment, equal opportunity, equal rule application, stuff like that. A lot of people believe that the world is inherently just and that people get what they deserve. This "belief in a just world" is closely related to the common idea of fairness.
RE: Severity of Catalyst and "Fairness" - Whitefeather - 11-17-2011
(11-16-2011, 09:42 PM)yossarian Wrote: ...People get what they ask for. It is hard to see how people would choose suffering, and yet this is precisely what they do. The very fact that it is possible that people in the midst of suffering cannot see that they chose the suffering is a kind of ultimately mystery of our nature, our nature as creators, our nature as One Infinite Creator.
I do not think that people choose the suffering for the suffering, I think rather that people are living their DNA, is what happens to them, suffering included.
Let's face it! The main service of wanderers is the cleansing of the DNA so that humankind makes the jump at this time. It is because the DNA is reaching Light status at this particular space/time. Space/time is meeting with time/space.
DNA expresses itself in people, one task at a time. And every time it does and manifests in the person' life a dark part of itself in need of healing, it is because it is looking for the optimal response. The new response (choice) will then change the old program and paradigm. A positive response such as forgiveness, peace, non-judgment, love, compassion and blessings, etc. will polarize the individual positively obviously. It is the heart aligned response.
A response which turns around bad thoughts and feelings, cursing, resentment, hoping something bad happens to the adversary, slandering, lying, pushing, forcing, manipulation in order to gain societal group power and harming, will polarize the individual toward the negative path. It is the mind aligned response.
Now, everyone DNA should be cleared by now so, how is it possible that so much DNA is still uncleared in too many people when we are reaching ascension time? It is the result of the work of the negative forces. The poisons, toxins, radiations, illnesses, traumas, vaccinations, word programming, deceptions, wars, disinformation, judgments putting people against one another, etc. all which they are putting in here massively renders the natural process of ascension a very difficult thing for everyone to go through.
The word "fair" does not exist amongst the negative entities... or only to make believe and as tool of deception.
L/L