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+--- Thread: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? (/showthread.php?tid=4244)
Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - turtledude23 - 02-22-2012
This article discusses how some scientists want a basic protection of the rights of dolphins.
http://torontostandard.com/article/dolphins-and-humans-equal-rights
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Ruth - 02-22-2012
IMHO - dolphins and humans are no where near equal. Dolphins are far superior.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - BrownEye - 03-12-2012
http://boingboing.net/2012/03/09/the-case-for-dolphin-rights.html
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Ali Quadir - 03-12-2012
Douglas Adams Wrote:“Man has always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much...the wheel, New York, wars and so on...while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man...for precisely the same reason.”
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Ruth - 03-12-2012
Ali - while traveling this past few days I have been relistening to the radio plays that the BBC radio made. Just heard this very statement just yesterday! I think it is quite true that as the dolphins were leving just before the demolitions of the Earth, one of them said "so long and thanks for all the fish"
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Bring4th_Austin - 03-12-2012
(02-22-2012, 06:14 PM)Ruth Wrote: IMHO - dolphins and humans are no where near equal. Dolphins are far superior.
Just curious, could you expand on that a bit?
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - 3DMonkey - 03-12-2012
(03-12-2012, 07:25 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote:(02-22-2012, 06:14 PM)Ruth Wrote: IMHO - dolphins and humans are no where near equal. Dolphins are far superior.
Just curious, could you expand on that a bit?
You try living in the Ocean 24/7.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - godwide_void - 03-12-2012
Don't dolphins communicate telepathically, or at the very least have a sonar-based language? I wonder what sorts of discussions they have with each other?
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Oceania - 03-12-2012
they apparently send sonar based concepts. maybe it's the language of light.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Ali Quadir - 03-13-2012
I think it's just language. But the information density in their language is much higher than ours. And their audio processing brain centers are much bigger than ours. It's possible that they can communicate very complex information very quickly.
Since they observe the world through sonar. I would agree with oceania the content of their language is probably similar to sonar images. It would be most logical to mimic sonar images with their sounds if at all possible. Just like the early human writing resembled pictures more than letters.
Perhaps if they can communicate so efficiently they don't have all the misunderstandings we do.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Oceania - 03-13-2012
what are sonar images?
Q'uo said they send concepts.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Cyan - 03-13-2012
Imho, all species able to communicate complex mental concepts to one another, even highly theoretically, should be given full sentient creature protection.
No eating, testing or inhumane treatment, and no killing or harming except under direct threat to others(killing a rampaging gorilla for example).
Any animal in the self sentient category that is going to be put down can have prosecutor and a defence attorney speaking for it.
This would include things like larger whales and dolphins, most primates and possibly a few others.
Then again, fighting for animal rights seems like a worthy and noble cause on this level.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - norral - 03-13-2012
oh man beautiful post cyan. thanks for posting that. how very loving of you
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Cyan - 03-13-2012
(03-13-2012, 07:19 AM)norral Wrote: oh man beautiful post cyan. thanks for posting that. how very loving of you
I consider it common sense.
One of the only things I find truly interested is to pick apart the brain and the world view of another entity and see what their reflection of the intelligent infinity is. Besides, can you imagine getting high with a bunch of dolphins.
Or what about a micro-dose of LSD to a willing dolphin participant. Millions of years of purely biological evolution meeting 10.000 years of purely mechanical evolution.
I'm thinking dolphin manages to control the effects easily if brainsize to dose size ratio is kept human equivelant.
Can you imagine having that convo with a dolphin
"oh, did you see those golden shapes on the walls, they looked like macrils to me"
"oh, for me they looked like a golden flowing palace!"
And so on.
The worst service we can do to future generations is to eliminate the few sentient species that DO inhabit the same planet.
Anyway. Animal rights should be considerably stronger than today.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Oceania - 03-13-2012
why are then other animals allowed to be treated bad? they have rights too.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Cyan - 03-13-2012
(03-13-2012, 07:32 AM)Oceania Wrote: why are then other animals allowed to be treated bad? they have rights too.
Thats why I feel the best cut-off point is when we can prove that they have complex abstract reasoning skills + communication.
We can't say that "you shouldnt squash a bug cus it has feelings" and then expect people to treat anyone any different.
Either we all agree we are biological killing machines designed to turn living creatures into poo, or, we create a tiered system of understanding the universe.
I say that animals that we can communicate with should be viewed with higher regard than those that we can not communicate with.
I dont know about anyone else but i prefer:
Most living and able to communicate
to
Least living and able to communicate
If you see me at a sinking of a cruiser, you can be sure i'll be more concerned with first, saving my self, and then saving anyone else i can and only then worrying about the pet gerbils.
I judge a creatures worth if I have no internal understanding of it in the following way.
"larger brain + more developement = higher priority for communication"
That is because in my opinion evolution has advanced since single-cellular organisms. I'll shed more tears for the participants here than I do for the microbes destroyed by my immune system.
EDIT: should said participants perish ofcourse, felt should clarify it.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Ali Quadir - 03-13-2012
(03-13-2012, 07:08 AM)Oceania Wrote: what are sonar images?I don't know what Q'uo said.. But dolphins see with sonar. So a sonar image is what they see. If they, for example, see a whale they see an image of a whale made of sound. When they express whale they would mimick the sound that would cause them to 'see' it. That mimick won't be perfect, but I expect that is what Q'uo meant.
Q'uo said they send concepts.
It's not the same as a visual image. A visual image has colors while a sonar image has vision inside the object... If for example a pregnant woman swims with dolphins they'll be able to see the children inside of her.
@Cyan
I totally agree with you... Well put.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Oceania - 03-13-2012
i don't squash bugs, nor do i want to kill animals. if i have to feed my pet i would kill fish for him, but this is not about respectfully hunting anf fishing what you need to eat, it's about treating animals like objects. all animals, not just sentient people ones have rights in how they're treated, Cyan. i can't believe you think animals are there for us to exploit like that.
and if you leave a dog on a sinking ship you deserve to go down with it. imo.
Gandhi: "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members."
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - godwide_void - 03-13-2012
(03-13-2012, 07:31 AM)Cyan Wrote:(03-13-2012, 07:19 AM)norral Wrote: oh man beautiful post cyan. thanks for posting that. how very loving of you
I consider it common sense.
One of the only things I find truly interested is to pick apart the brain and the world view of another entity and see what their reflection of the intelligent infinity is. Besides, can you imagine getting high with a bunch of dolphins.
Or what about a micro-dose of LSD to a willing dolphin participant. Millions of years of purely biological evolution meeting 10.000 years of purely mechanical evolution.
I lol'd both at the idea itself and the sheer awesomeness of it. A dolphin in psychedelic-altered senses, considering its already advanced mental capabilities, would probably get into a looooong existential reflection on itself and contemplate on the sheer, infinite vastness of this random liquidy abyss it finds itself wading through, then it would probably reach the insight that it's a microcosmic representation of the macrocosm; its sonar-communication capabilities would probably evolve into pure telepathy and upon trying to communicate this advanced tripped out concept to its fellow dolphinites, would end up unlocking that part deep within itself that comprehends itself and its fellow dolphin peers as Creator in aquamarine animal form. Who knows, we might end up seeing the formation of an advanced underwater Atlantis-esque civilization run by dolphins, or they'll somehow gain the ability to create galaxies in their blowholes, or at the very least fire laser beams from their blowholes.
Hypothetically speaking, anyway.
RE: Dolphins and Humans: Equals? - Cyan - 03-13-2012
(03-13-2012, 11:22 AM)godwide_void Wrote:(03-13-2012, 07:31 AM)Cyan Wrote:(03-13-2012, 07:19 AM)norral Wrote: oh man beautiful post cyan. thanks for posting that. how very loving of you
I consider it common sense.
One of the only things I find truly interested is to pick apart the brain and the world view of another entity and see what their reflection of the intelligent infinity is. Besides, can you imagine getting high with a bunch of dolphins.
Or what about a micro-dose of LSD to a willing dolphin participant. Millions of years of purely biological evolution meeting 10.000 years of purely mechanical evolution.
I lol'd both at the idea itself and the sheer awesomeness of it. A dolphin in psychedelic-altered senses, considering its already advanced mental capabilities, would probably get into a looooong existential reflection on itself and contemplate on the sheer, infinite vastness of this random liquidy abyss it finds itself wading through, then it would probably reach the insight that it's a microcosmic representation of the macrocosm; its sonar-communication capabilities would probably evolve into pure telepathy and upon trying to communicate this advanced tripped out concept to its fellow dolphinites, would end up unlocking that part deep within itself that comprehends itself and its fellow dolphin peers as Creator in aquamarine animal form. Who knows, we might end up seeing the formation of an advanced underwater Atlantis-esque civilization run by dolphins, or they'll somehow gain the ability to create galaxies in their blowholes, or at the very least fire laser beams from their blowholes.
Hypothetically speaking, anyway.
I see we are at the same level of awesomeness here.
I was thinking of a man-machine interface followed by a dolphin-machine interface and then dolphin-man interface
reminds me of that american dad episode where the CIA teaches dolphins to talk but all they want to talk about is macril. Lucky creatures.