Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
04-01-2019, 12:38 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-01-2019, 02:56 PM by Infinite.)
#31
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
The word "your" reffered the planes of Earth. Inner planes = time/space portion of the Earth. For example astral plane, mental plane, causal plane, etc. Each density until sixth-density has outer and inner planes or, as Ra called, the reciprocal system space/time and time/space.
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04-01-2019, 02:24 PM,
#32
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
When you dream, that's time/space, right?

You don't need a body there, so does time/space not have a body?

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04-01-2019, 02:42 PM,
#33
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(04-01-2019, 02:24 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  When you dream, that's time/space, right?

You don't need a body there, so does time/space not have a body?

Yes, the majority of dreams occurs on the astral plane. We have bodies in time/space, but aren't chemical bodies:

Quote:17.38 Questioner: Well, does each… does… this is difficult. Our physical plane: Are there seven sub-planes to what we call our physical plane here?

Ra: I am Ra. You are correct. This is difficult to understand. There are an infinite number of planes. In your particular space/time continuum distortion there are seven sub-planes of mind/body/spirit complexes. You will discover the vibrational nature of these seven planes as you pass through your experiential distortions, meeting other-selves of the various levels which correspond to the energy influx centers of the physical vehicle.

The invisible, or inner, third-density planes are inhabited by those who are not of body complex natures such as yours; that is, they do not collect about their spirit/mind complexes a chemical body. Nevertheless these entities are divided in what you may call an artificial dream within a dream into various levels. In the upper levels, desire to communicate knowledge back down to the outer planes of existence becomes less, due to the intensive learn/teaching which occurs upon these levels.
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04-01-2019, 02:52 PM,
#34
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
If there are an infinite number of planes, are they all discrete?
Like you cannot be in two planes at once, or have them overlap?

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04-01-2019, 03:01 PM,
#35
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(04-01-2019, 02:52 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  If there are an infinite number of planes, are they all discrete?

The majority is discrete to the perception of the third density entities.

(04-01-2019, 02:52 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  Like you cannot be in two planes at once, or have them overlap?

You exist in many planes at the same time. But, you are conscious of only one.
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Great Central Sun
04-01-2019, 03:21 PM,
#36
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
So when you close your eyes and see images, are you seeing another plane?
Or is that just the 3D chemical brain images?

I'm doing meditation now, seeking inward, trying to find answers, and wanting to know if what I see is real.

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04-01-2019, 04:03 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-01-2019, 04:04 PM by Infinite.)
#37
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(04-01-2019, 03:21 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  So when you close your eyes and see images, are you seeing another plane?
Or is that just the 3D chemical brain images?

As Ra said, there are planes where our thoughts are things. So, as the traditional esoteric teachings says, the thoughts-forms exist in lower astral plane.

The origin of the images that you see after you closer your eyes, depends of their origin. The clairvoyant can close your eyes and see etheric or astral matter. In this case, he is seeing other planes.
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04-01-2019, 04:12 PM,
#38
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
Thank you Infinite for your help.
I'm sure most of what I see in my mind is on other subplanes.
When I get deep in meditation, they can be beyond words.

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04-01-2019, 04:33 PM,
#39
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(04-01-2019, 12:20 PM)loostudent Wrote:  To me Ra's list of bodies is also confusing. First they list three physical (outer) bodies according to three lower densities. Then at once it shifts to inner plane (non-physical) bodies.


Quote:17.36 Questioner: I’ve heard that there are seven astral and seven devachanic primary levels. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. You speak of some of the more large distinctions in levels in your inner planes. That is correct.

Is there one inner plane (with several levels) fo each density? What does "your" mean in the quote above? I thought the astral planes are the inner planes of 1d-4d and devachanic inner plane corresponds to 5d.

In my opinion, there is one physical plane, one lower astral, one middle astral, one higher astral, one devachanic, and one causal, and one buddhic. Each density exists in each of those planes because each density has an inner and outer.  For example, a rock, a cat, and a human all sit there in the same physical plane. These beings are different densities, but occupy the same plane. But there could be other physical things, for example a fourth density physical being, that you don't have the appropriate sensory systems to detect, even though they are also physical, just like you can't perceive the entire electromagnetic spectrum. The same multi density occupation happens in every inner plane I listed (lower astral, devachanic etc.)

You could say that there are infinite levels to the physical level, astral levels, devachanic level, though. It just depends how you want to quantify it. You can subdivide physical planes, and ethereal planes infinitely. Seven within seven within seven, ad infinitum.

When Ra says "your inner planes", they mean, in my opinion, the portion of the inner planes that contain 3rd density consciousness. But as I pointed out with the physical plane example, different densities can interact in different inner planes. Just like the rock, the cat, and the human interact. The higher in density you are the more complex your reflection, or manifestation, becomes on each inner plane and physical plane.

(04-01-2019, 02:24 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  When you dream, that's time/space, right?

You don't need a body there, so does time/space not have a body?

You have the perception of a body, usually, which is made out of the "thought stuff" or "thought form" of that plane. The consistency of this "thought form" is consonant with what inner plane you are on. Astral levels will resemble physical to the extent you are conscious, and higher levels are more abstract.

(04-01-2019, 02:52 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  If there are an infinite number of planes, are they all discrete?
Like you cannot be in two planes at once, or have them overlap?

They can nonlinearly interact with each other. A physical human typically doesn't have the capability to do this though consciously. Other physical beings might have more complex brains that allow this.

(04-01-2019, 03:21 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  So when you close your eyes and see images, are you seeing another plane?
Or is that just the 3D chemical brain images?

I'm doing meditation now, seeking inward, trying to find answers, and wanting to know if what I see is real.

You are seeing snippets of the astral plane, to some extent. That doesn't mean they are conveying valid information though. A lot of it is just nonsense. Just like dreams are often nonsense. Other times, they are not nonsense. Discernment takes a long time to develop. Law of attraction is way faster in the inner planes, because they are faster vibrating.

(03-31-2019, 09:02 AM)Infinite Wrote:  I see the other densities as other octaves. The fourth density planes (space/time and time/space) are from another vibration above the yellow octave. So, we can't go to the fourth density, it's necessary to have a fourth density body. As the astral plane is the sub-density of fourth, for this reason I supposed fourth density has astral characteristics. For example, Ra said that in fifth density the entity function only by thought. That's the same description of the mental plane of the traditions.

If I understand you correctly, I would agree to a large extent. The physicalization of the true color will cause the crystallization (the physical plane) of that density to conform to the characteristics of the natural ray. They also mentioned in one session where the fifth density negative, accompanying the Ra channeling was leaving their physical body and traveling to them in their time/space body to work their psychic attacks on them.

(03-31-2019, 09:02 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Edit: Intersting passage of "Autobiography of an Iogue" when the deceased master of Yogananda appears to him in which seems a fourth density body. He talks about an "astral planet" and a new body:

Source: http://yogananda.com.au/aoy/beyond_death_1.html

Yes, that description by his master sounds very much like a fourth density planet, especially where he talks about them still being able to be injured but they can heal themselves with thought. Seems more evidence that fourth density physical is like a "physicalized higher astral".

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting.

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04-01-2019, 08:14 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-01-2019, 08:18 PM by Infinite Unity.)
#40
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(04-01-2019, 04:33 PM)anagogy Wrote:  
(04-01-2019, 12:20 PM)loostudent Wrote:  To me Ra's list of bodies is also confusing. First they list three physical (outer) bodies according to three lower densities. Then at once it shifts to inner plane (non-physical) bodies.



Quote:17.36 Questioner: I’ve heard that there are seven astral and seven devachanic primary levels. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. You speak of some of the more large distinctions in levels in your inner planes. That is correct.

Is there one inner plane (with several levels) fo each density? What does "your" mean in the quote above? I thought the astral planes are the inner planes of 1d-4d and devachanic inner plane corresponds to 5d.

In my opinion, there is one physical plane, one lower astral, one middle astral, one higher astral, one devachanic, and one causal, and one buddhic. Each density exists in each of those planes because each density has an inner and outer.  For example, a rock, a cat, and a human all sit there in the same physical plane. These beings are different densities, but occupy the same plane. But there could be other physical things, for example a fourth density physical being, that you don't have the appropriate sensory systems to detect, even though they are also physical, just like you can't perceive the entire electromagnetic spectrum. The same multi density occupation happens in every inner plane I listed (lower astral, devachanic etc.)

You could say that there are infinite levels to the physical level, astral levels, devachanic level, though. It just depends how you want to quantify it. You can subdivide physical planes, and ethereal planes infinitely. Seven within seven within seven, ad infinitum.

When Ra says "your inner planes", they mean, in my opinion, the portion of the inner planes that contain 3rd density consciousness. But as I pointed out with the physical plane example, different densities can interact in different inner planes. Just like the rock, the cat, and the human interact. The higher in density you are the more complex your reflection, or manifestation, becomes on each inner plane and physical plane.


(04-01-2019, 02:24 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  When you dream, that's time/space, right?

You don't need a body there, so does time/space not have a body?

You have the perception of a body, usually, which is made out of the "thought stuff" or "thought form" of that plane. The consistency of this "thought form" is consonant with what inner plane you are on. Astral levels will resemble physical to the extent you are conscious, and higher levels are more abstract.


(04-01-2019, 02:52 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  If there are an infinite number of planes, are they all discrete?
Like you cannot be in two planes at once, or have them overlap?

They can nonlinearly interact with each other. A physical human typically doesn't have the capability to do this though consciously. Other physical beings might have more complex brains that allow this.


(04-01-2019, 03:21 PM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote:  So when you close your eyes and see images, are you seeing another plane?
Or is that just the 3D chemical brain images?

I'm doing meditation now, seeking inward, trying to find answers, and wanting to know if what I see is real.

You are seeing snippets of the astral plane, to some extent. That doesn't mean they are conveying valid information though. A lot of it is just nonsense. Just like dreams are often nonsense. Other times, they are not nonsense. Discernment takes a long time to develop. Law of attraction is way faster in the inner planes, because they are faster vibrating.


(03-31-2019, 09:02 AM)Infinite Wrote:  I see the other densities as other octaves. The fourth density planes (space/time and time/space) are from another vibration above the yellow octave. So, we can't go to the fourth density, it's necessary to have a fourth density body. As the astral plane is the sub-density of fourth, for this reason I supposed fourth density has astral characteristics. For example, Ra said that in fifth density the entity function only by thought. That's the same description of the mental plane of the traditions.

If I understand you correctly, I would agree to a large extent. The physicalization of the true color will cause the crystallization (the physical plane) of that density to conform to the characteristics of the natural ray. They also mentioned in one session where the fifth density negative, accompanying the Ra channeling was leaving their physical body and traveling to them in their time/space body to work their psychic attacks on them.


(03-31-2019, 09:02 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Edit: Intersting passage of "Autobiography of an Iogue" when the deceased master of Yogananda appears to him in which seems a fourth density body. He talks about an "astral planet" and a new body:

Source: http://yogananda.com.au/aoy/beyond_death_1.html

Yes, that description by his master sounds very much like a fourth density planet, especially where he talks about them still being able to be injured but they can heal themselves with thought. Seems more evidence that fourth density physical is like a "physicalized higher astral".

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting.

"Inner Planes" to me is where 3d conscience is stationed. We must remember that there is no true movement, and everything is actually static, with the illusion of movement. "Inner Planes" could equate as time/space, the mental realm, However there are large differences between 3d inner planes, and 4d inner planes, and so on. Mainly in the information influx, and possible "movement" within these realms etc....

I would also agree that every density, is comparable to the larger: macrocosmic scale of the octave structure. There are Infinite "repetitions" equating through the entire system/scale. Like your cells, to you, as you are to the Earth, and so on at Infinium.

The fundamentals of Intelligence or the Original Identity, are.....inescapable, as they are still the generator/creator of all that is. These fundamentals are aspects like organization.
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04-02-2019, 05:20 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-02-2019, 05:21 PM by loostudent.)
#41
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(04-01-2019, 04:33 PM)anagogy Wrote:  In my opinion, there is one physical plane, one lower astral, one middle astral, one higher astral, one devachanic, and one causal, and one buddhic. Each density exists in each of those planes because each density has an inner and outer.  For example, a rock, a cat, and a human all sit there in the same physical plane. These beings are different densities, but occupy the same plane. But there could be other physical things, for example a fourth density physical being, that you don't have the appropriate sensory systems to detect, even though they are also physical, just like you can't perceive the entire electromagnetic spectrum. The same multi density occupation happens in every inner plane I listed (lower astral, devachanic etc.)

You could say that there are infinite levels to the physical level, astral levels, devachanic level, though. It just depends how you want to quantify it. You can subdivide physical planes, and ethereal planes infinitely. Seven within seven within seven, ad infinitum.

When Ra says "your inner planes", they mean, in my opinion, the portion of the inner planes that contain 3rd density consciousness. But as I pointed out with the physical plane example, different densities can interact in different inner planes. Just like the rock, the cat, and the human interact. The higher in density you are the more complex your reflection, or manifestation, becomes on each inner plane and physical plane.

Ah, I see! Thanks for a clear explanation. So these planes are like layers if onion. From most outer to most inner. I was confused because Ra used colors for lower/higher and also for inner/outer. Densities hold different levels of consciousness - from lover to higher or less conscious to more conscious. I guess more evolved beings have also more access to inner planes and are less dependent on physical body.
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04-03-2019, 09:39 PM,
#42
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(04-02-2019, 05:20 PM)loostudent Wrote:  Ah, I see! Thanks for a clear explanation. So these planes are like layers if onion. From most outer to most inner.

Exactly. It is crazy how something can seem so simple in your head and then you try to put it in words, and you see how confusing it can be. But explaining it over and over again over the last couple years has forced me to come up with clearer and clearer analogies. So I'm glad if this helped your understanding.

(04-02-2019, 05:20 PM)loostudent Wrote:  I was confused because Ra used colors for lower/higher and also for inner/outer.

Yes, as was I. I think that was the main confusion, is when they described the vehicles, it was not clear, in anyway whatsoever, that they were talking about the physical bodies of densities 1-7, because they were attempting to apply the labels that various occultists have attributed to inner plane bodies, to the physical bodies of the higher densities. In a way it was understandable, because we don't have good words to describe a higher density physical body. Also, they often described things in unusual ways (from our 3rd density perspective). Just like how they might describe a "noise" or a "name" as a "vibratory sound complex". They were doing the best with what they had. The group wanted names, and they did their best to associate them. But the first 3 described were clearly physical bodies, and they didn't make any distinction that the rest were nonphysical (because they weren't, though they were certainly higher vibrational physical energy).

The physical body of any density, is a crystallization of that thought form that makes up that ray. So there is sort of physicalized "higher astral body" (the body of fourth density physical), and there is a nonphysical higher astral body which resides in time/space. You can also think of the physical world bodies as "what kind of physical structure would allow this consciousness to be incarnate upon the physical level". For a third density being, it is the human brain/body, with its abstract capabilities allowing "self awareness" in the physical plane. It "translates" the physical world in a way that makes sense to consciousness that resides in the "middle astral" (the natural realm of yellow ray). In second density it is, what we might call, "the genetic body". In first density, it is the "elemental body". First density is native to the physical world, so its structure is correspondingly simple because no "translation" is needed. That is the natural vibration that this particular form of consciousness would "settle on" if it was capable of death. Much like the lower astral is the natural place a second density form would float to, upon cessation of its physical life until it recycles back into incarnation. Because the lower astral is the natural domain of orange ray consciousness.

(04-02-2019, 05:20 PM)loostudent Wrote:  Densities hold different levels of consciousness - from lover to higher or less conscious to more conscious. I guess more evolved beings have also more access to inner planes and are less dependent on physical body.

Yes, that is true as well. For example, just as 4th - 7th physical can hide themselves from us lower densities' physical sensory systems, the same is true on the other more inner planes. Higher density beings can cloak themselves from your presence, for example, if you were astral projecting. You might the get sense that someone was watching you, but you can't see them or perceive them. They have access to your time/space, but they can cloak their time/space from you if they really want to.

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04-30-2019, 03:59 PM,
#43
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(09-22-2016, 06:11 AM)anagogy Wrote:  
(09-21-2016, 06:58 PM)Infinite Wrote:  Hi. I have some doubts about the relationship of the planes of existence of the esoteric philosophies (Theosophy, Gnosis, etc.) and the densities. This is my vision:

Physical Plane - 3D
Eteric Plane - 4D
Astral and Mental Planes - 5D
Causal Plane - 6D
Buddhic Plane - 7D
Atmic Plane = 8D or Dimensional re-fusion?

I feel that this is not correct. Anyone have any ideia? Thanks. Peace, love and light

Yes.


Red Ray = Physical Plane/Prime Material/This is also the Etheric Plane (as is commonly referenced in occult literature -- not the version Ra was talking about). This is the most congealed manifestation of form, or tangibility.
Orange Ray = Lower Astral Plane (Selfish Vibrations/Vibrations Concerning Self/Lust/Personal Power/Lower Emotional Realm)
Yellow Ray = Middle Astral Plane (Awareness of difference between Self and Other/Societal Vibrations/Personhood in relationship to groups of entities/this is where you begin to see astral cities or conglomerations of souls living together/Lower mental plane.)
Green Ray = Higher Astral Plane (Awareness of others vibrations/empathy/understanding of what another is experiencing/unconditional love/astral heaven type worlds/awareness of harmony/higher emotional plane).
Blue Ray = Devachanic Plane/Mental Plane/vibrations of free communication and pure conceptual ideals/repository of the "pure vibrations" of a thing at a conceptual level/conceptual archetypes after which every further instance of a particular idea is a patternization of, i.e., Plato's ideas of "ideal forms")
Indigo Ray = Causal Plane (Awareness of self as an expression of Intelligent Energy/awareness of self as creator/what Ra called the "etheric body" or the place where light is given form. Think of it as an "eye" or "shutter" that focuses light, giving it form, which is why it is the primal Form Maker.
Violet Ray = Buddhic Plane or alternatively the "Atmic Plane" or the level of 'Christ Consciousness'. Realm of wholeness, and awareness of connection with everything. This is where the m/b/s totality resides. An awareness of the totality of experiential balance. This is the most intangible and "not constrained by form" level.

It is far more useful to think of occult planes and bodies in terms of their Rays, or vibrational architecture, than it is to think of them in terms of their occult names, which are matched and mismatched over and over by different occult teachers. However, I have correlated them as best I presently can to their occult terminology.

Each density exists within all the rays, yet each has a "native" vibration, or plane, that it is naturally attracted to (the plane, or subdensity, where the consciousness of that density naturally gravitates to). The "native plane" of 1st density is the subdensity that most closely correlates with it, which is Red Ray. So the native plane of 1st density is the Physical Plane. However, every 1st density object, like say, a rock, exists in all the other rays as well. It has all the ascendingly balanced bodies, or vibrational levels, to its consciousness just as everything does. So even a rock as a lower astral component, a middle astral component, a higher astral component, devachanic, causal, and buddhic component. It contains all the intelligence levels and vehicles from dense to fine. So similarly, the "native plane" of 2nd density is the orange ray Lower Astral. So when a 2d beings physical form deteriorates, and the aggregates of consciousness lose integration, the vibrational level that its consciousness gravitates towards naturally, or "settles to" is the lower astral plane, which is very "animalistic" consciousness. That is where it feels most comfortable. 

Everything has all the levels. However, the ability for a given perspective of consciousness to utilize the planes increases with density level. This is why your 3rd density chemical body is more complexly patternized than a 1st density chemical body, for example. You also have a more complex astral manifestation/devachanic/etc. manifestation and so on up the planes. The more complex the consciousness, the more complex the patternization or manifestation in each plane of existence. So while you can visit all the planes, no matter what density level you are because it is part and parcel of your 'consciousness continuum', your ability to 'take in' that continuum increases with each density. For example, as a human being, you could learn to inhabit the Buddhic Body or Violet Ray plane. However, your ability to take in that light, would not compare to a 7th density beings ability to 'take in' the light of that level. A higher density being has more complex vehicles in all of the planes, be they physical or any other plane. 

Your density level is a measure of vibrational distance from the One or Prime Unity. That distance is measured in terms of distortion, falsity, or illusion. Your level of distortion, or density, is how much of the creators light, or intelligent infinity, you are filtering, or warping, to your perspective. 

"The source of all distortions is the limit of the viewpoint."

The 8th level is infinity itself. It is the absolute, and it has no vibrational level. It has no distortion. It is Beingness itself. "all begins and ends in mystery". It is the sound of silence. Whereas the rays have relative vibrational pitches or frequencies, the 8th has no frequency and yet, it embodies or contains all frequencies. But everything cancels out in the absolute, except that which cannot be canceled out: Pure Awareness, or Pure Light, or however you want to conceptualize the essential fabric of existence itself. Pure Intelligent Unity.

Boom! Good reply and I thank you for that!
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05-12-2019, 06:45 PM,
#44
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(09-22-2016, 06:11 AM)anagogy Wrote:  Red Ray = Physical Plane/Prime Material/This is also the Etheric Plane (as is commonly referenced in occult literature -- not the version Ra was talking about). This is the most congealed manifestation of form, or tangibility.
Orange Ray = Lower Astral Plane (Selfish Vibrations/Vibrations Concerning Self/Lust/Personal Power/Lower Emotional Realm)
Yellow Ray = Middle Astral Plane (Awareness of difference between Self and Other/Societal Vibrations/Personhood in relationship to groups of entities/this is where you begin to see astral cities or conglomerations of souls living together/Lower mental plane.)
Green Ray = Higher Astral Plane (Awareness of others vibrations/empathy/understanding of what another is experiencing/unconditional love/astral heaven type worlds/awareness of harmony/higher emotional plane).
Blue Ray = Devachanic Plane/Mental Plane/vibrations of free communication and pure conceptual ideals/repository of the "pure vibrations" of a thing at a conceptual level/conceptual archetypes after which every further instance of a particular idea is a patternization of, i.e., Plato's ideas of "ideal forms")
Indigo Ray = Causal Plane (Awareness of self as an expression of Intelligent Energy/awareness of self as creator/what Ra called the "etheric body" or the place where light is given form. Think of it as an "eye" or "shutter" that focuses light, giving it form, which is why it is the primal Form Maker.
Violet Ray = Buddhic Plane or alternatively the "Atmic Plane" or the level of 'Christ Consciousness'. Realm of wholeness, and awareness of connection with everything. This is where the m/b/s totality resides. An awareness of the totality of experiential balance. This is the most intangible and "not constrained by form" level.

Do you think is possible relate these planes and rays with first dimension, second dimension, third dimension, fourth dimension, etc.? I think is just a matter of what we consider as "dimension", because the sub-frequencies of the planes are infinite. So, it's not easy make these correlations.
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05-12-2019, 08:35 PM,
#45
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
Astral travel (unless very well protected) is actually used by the soul to align with positive and negative attachments. If well protected positive, if unprotected you get pulled by negative attachments.
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05-13-2019, 04:12 AM,
#46
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-12-2019, 06:45 PM)Infinite Wrote:  Do you think is possible relate these planes and rays with first dimension, second dimension, third dimension, fourth dimension, etc.? I think is just a matter of what we consider as "dimension", because the sub-frequencies of the planes are infinite. So, it's not easy make these correlations.

Yes. Great question. In my opinion, densities and spatial dimensions *are* correlated.

Remember that Ra said there are 3 space/time directions and 3 time/space directions.

3 dimensions of space, and 3 dimensions of time.

The spatial dimensions are of the physical world, and the temporal dimensions are of the nonphysical world.

But they are all 90 degrees perpendicular to each other. Recall how Ra said the "L" shape was a symbol of transformation. This is why in my opinion. It is a mathematical and geometrical translation of inner transformation into the physical world. So the 90 degree angle is a symbol of that transformation. That is the "shape" that thoughtform takes on.

The first 3 spatial dimensions we are very familiar with: up/down (1D), left/right (2D), forward/back (3D). The next three are more nebulous to imagine for most people but I will attempt to describe them: past/future (4th), alternate timelines (5th -- this involves another 2 temporal directions perpendicular to the all the other dimensions), the next one, as best I can describe it, is: the "inner/outer" direction (6D), and the 7th is simply a summation of all those spatial and temporal directions (like the container and connector between all of them -- a thermometer of the whole).

So again, while densities and spatial dimensions are *not* the same thing, they are correlated.

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05-13-2019, 07:50 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-13-2019, 07:51 AM by Infinite.)
#47
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-13-2019, 04:12 AM)anagogy Wrote:  Remember that Ra said there are 3 space/time directions and 3 time/space directions.

(05-13-2019, 04:12 AM)anagogy Wrote:  Recall how Ra said the "L" shape was a symbol of transformation.

I don't remember of read that. Can you indicate what questions are?

(05-13-2019, 04:12 AM)anagogy Wrote:  past/future (4th)

What would be the correlation of this with tesseract? Charles W. Leadbeater from Theosophy said astral plane is the fourth dimension because is possible see all the sides of an object at the same time on astral plane:

Quote:but I can at any rate bear witness that he tesseract or fourthdimensional cube which he describes is a reality,for it is quite a familiar figure upon the astral plane.

Source: Clairvoyance by C.W. Leadbeater

And to him, the time is not the fourth dimension:

Quote:Time is not in reality the fourth dimension at all; yet to look at it for the moment from that point of view is some slight help towards grasping the ungraspable.

Source: Clairvoyance by C.W. Leadbeater

As I said above, it depends of what we consider as "dimension". If just an addition to spatial mensuration Leadbeater seems right. If we consider time as a dimension, your view makes sense. If we consider the sub-planes or "places" as dimensions the etheric plane could be the fourth or fifth dimension (it depends if how we see the time). So, this is very complex, much more than density concept, because this last is about frequencies of vibration and not necessarily places.
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05-13-2019, 12:11 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-13-2019, 01:31 PM by anagogy.)
#48
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-13-2019, 07:50 AM)Infinite Wrote:  I don't remember of read that. Can you indicate what questions are?


100.6 ▶ Questioner: Thank you. To continue with the tarot, I would like to make the additional observation with respect to Card Six that the male’s arms being crossed, if the female to his right pulls on his left hand it would cant, in effect turn him, his entire body, toward the right and the same is true for the female on the left: pulling on his right hand she will turn his entire body to her side. Which is my interpretation of what’s meant by the tangle of the arms. That the transformation occurs by pull which attempts to turn the entity toward the left or the right-hand path. Would Ra comment on that observation?

Ra: I am Ra. We shall. The concept of the pull towards mental polarity may well be examined in the light of what the student has already accreted concerning the nature of the conscious, exemplified by the male, and the unconscious, exemplified by the female. Indeed, both the prostituted and the virginal of deep mind invite and await the reaching.

In this image of Transformation of Mind, then, each of the females points the way it would go, but is not able to move, nor are the two female entities striving to do so. They are at rest. The conscious entity holds both and will turn itself one way or the other or, potentially, backwards and forwards, rocking first one way then the other and not achieving the transformation. In order for the Transformation of Mind to occur, one principle governing the use of the deep mind must be abandoned.

It is to be noted that the triangular shape formed by the shoulders and crossed elbows of consciousness is a shape to be associated with transformation. Indeed, you may see this shape echoed twice more in the image, each echo having its own riches to add to the impact of this complex of concepts.


They describe it as a "triangle" which it could also be viewed as I suppose. I mistakenly thought they said "L" shape. It still is, it is just tipped more.


OK. I’m sort of hunting around here for an entry into some information. I may not be looking in a productive area.

But you had stated that “we (that is Ra) had been aided by shapes such as the pyramid, so that we could aid your people with a shape such as the pyramid.” These shapes have been mentioned many, many times and you have also stated that the shapes themselves aren’t of too much consequence. I see a relation between these shapes and the energies that we have been studying with respect to the body, and I would like to ask a few questions on the pyramid to see if I might get an entry into some of this understanding.

You stated, “You will find the intersection of the triangle which is at the first level on each of the four sides forms a diamond in a plane which is horizontal.” Can you tell me what you meant by the word, intersection?

Ra: I am Ra. Your mathematics and arithmetic have a paucity of configurative descriptions which we might use. Without intending to be obscure, we may note that the purpose of the shapes is to work with time/space portions of the mind/body/spirit complex. Therefore, the intersection is both space/time and time/space oriented and thus is expressed in three dimensional geometry by two intersections which, when projected in both time/space and space/time, form one point.


There is another section where they make reference to three dimensions of time and three dimensions of space when talking about the physics of Dewey Larson with his reciprocal system. But sadly I cannot find it for the life of me at the moment. If I find it I will edit this post and add it. But essentially space and time are reciprocals of one another, and there are 3 directions of space, and 3 directions of time.

(05-13-2019, 07:50 AM)Infinite Wrote:  What would be the correlation of this with tesseract?

The correlation is congruency. A tesseract, in it's most basic geometrical form, is two 3 dimensional cubes joined by another 3 dimensional cube that goes through the fourth dimension. This describes a 4 dimensional cube (a tesseract). Well to be completely accurate, for symmetry there would be a total of 8 cubes connected in a proper tesseract, but let's not make this too complicated. Anyway there are 16 vertices. What are two moments in time stretching from past to future? A 3D space joined to another 3D space through the fourth dimension. In reality what you see as depictions of a tesseract are misleading because you have to keep in mind all the lines are the same length, so of course it cannot be properly conveyed on a 2D surface (like a book or computer screen). Also, in reality, time and space are more complex than the simple analogy of a cube and hypercube because they are actually ultimately spherical in nature, so instead of cubes and hypercubes you're actually dealing with spheres and hyperspheres. However, the dimensions remain perpendicular to each other, and the concept remains rather similar. But we can save that complexity for another time because it just adds to the confusion.

[Image: 385px-Dimension_levels.svg.png]

(05-13-2019, 07:50 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Charles W. Leadbeater from Theosophy said astral plane is the fourth dimension because is possible see all the sides of an object at the same time on astral plane:


Quote:but I can at any rate bear witness that he tesseract or fourthdimensional cube which he describes is a reality,for it is quite a familiar figure upon the astral plane.

(05-13-2019, 07:50 AM)Infinite Wrote:  And to him, the time is not the fourth dimension:

Quote:Time is not in reality the fourth dimension at all; yet to look at it for the moment from that point of view is some slight help towards grasping the ungraspable.

As I said above, it depends of what we consider as "dimension". If just an addition to spatial mensuration Leadbeater seems right. If we consider time as a dimension, your view makes sense. If we consider the sub-planes or "places" as dimensions the etheric plane could be the fourth or fifth dimension (it depends if how we see the time). So, this is very complex, much more than density concept, because this last is about frequencies of vibration and not necessarily places.

Well, with respect to Leadbeater, he was an occultist, and I don't think he was properly visualizing "time" (though he was right about the seeing all sides of an object at once because you have complete access to all points of the lower dimensional objects). It is indeed the fourth dimension. If I may offer an explanation of his probable thinking process: he was making the confusion that many occultists make, thinking that planes are the same thing as spatial dimensions, so being the occultist that he was, he came to the conclusion that the astral plane was obviously not time (from his perspective), so it logically couldn't be the fourth dimension. The confusion is understandable, because the astral plane is not the exactly the same thing as the "direction" we call time. It is correlated though because the natural complexity of space/time and time/space is associated with vibrational level. The medium that "vibrates" is awareness, or intelligent energy, and depending on the complexity of this vibration, or reciprocal vibration or motion, a certain degree of complexity, or "shape", of space/time and time/space accretes to it, causing a certain type of inner and outer experience. I realize this can be immensely confusing.

This may help the confusion in some small part: the 90 degree direction or axis associated with the progression of planes and bodies stretching from the tangible to the intangible, the physical to the ethereal, is the 6D inner/outer direction. Keep in mind, every higher spatial direction encompasses the one below it, so the 6th dimension contains all the lower dimensions within its substrate. This axis contains and structurally connects the grosser vibrations to the more subtle vibrations. I wish there were an easier way to describe these complex topics. It takes a lot of meditation on spatial directions for this to become natural to "see". It's incredibly difficult to visualize.

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05-17-2019, 02:19 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-17-2019, 02:20 PM by loostudent.)
#49
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-12-2019, 06:45 PM)Infinite Wrote:  Do you think is possible relate these planes and rays with first dimension, second dimension, third dimension, fourth dimension, etc.? I think is just a matter of what we consider as "dimension", because the sub-frequencies of the planes are infinite. So, it's not easy make these correlations.

There are many "dimensions" besides space and time. Dimensions are attributes that can be somehow measured, changed, divided in some distinctions/areas ... For example colour, sound, taste, temperature ...
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05-18-2019, 11:03 PM,
#50
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-13-2019, 12:11 PM)anagogy Wrote:  There is another section where they make reference to three dimensions of time and three dimensions of space when talking about the physics of Dewey Larson with his reciprocal system. But sadly I cannot find it for the life of me at the moment. If I find it I will edit this post and add it. But essentially space and time are reciprocals of one another, and there are 3 directions of space, and 3 directions of time.

Perhaps you confused this passage from Oxal with LOO:

Quote:I am Oxal. I am with this instrument. I have been called for the purpose of speaking to you on the nature and reality of time. Time is a field, like unto your electric field, your magnetic field. But what is a field, my friends? A field is an effect. A field is in your minds. A field has different effects at different distances. So does time. As you have recently stated, time and space are dependent, one upon another. It has also been stated that they are totally independent, and have no relationship.

Both of these statements are true. It simply depends on your point of view. The people of your planet at present do not appreciate the number of dimensions that are available for one to experience the creation. All of these dimensions are made up of a single place and a single time, and, for that matter, a single dimension, which has no dimension. But it is necessary to go from where you are to where you will be. Therefore, we shall speak of time as you know it and try to lead you to that place where you will know it.

Time is a field. It is space-dependent. Space is a field and is time-dependent. For this reason you recognize a reciprocal nature. The relationship between the two is the third power [of] displacement in either. This may be recognized by a simple equation or formula. T3 divided by 3 is equal to S3. S3 divided by 3 is equal to T.

There are three dimensions: therefore, the numeral “3” is used, both as a power and as a constant. Permeability of the field is dependent upon the speed of the reciprocal field. Your present constant, that which you call the velocity of light, is the basic speed of the field. The permeability of that which you know as matter is dependent upon this constant. In other words, my friends, the densities of which your world is composed, and the densities of the other planes of existence as you know them, are time-dependent. Their permeability is a function of apparent speed.

Condensation in dense form results from oscillations between reciprocally related space/time entities and permeability, or the basic density of this material, is a function of the apparent velocity of what you call light. There are six spaces and six times in each density. In your present form and state of awareness you recognize three. The other three you travel in in the state of sleep. In doing this. you become, quite often, mismatched with your awareness you possess in your waking state. For this reason you are able to perceive events that will occur in what is to you in the waking state the future. However, the future is an illusion, as is the past, for there is only the present. It is possible to slide, shall we say, along with respect to your awareness of time in the waking state simply by removing through the process of normal sleep the confines of the physical illusion. Space and time are then, as before, reciprocally related.

It in a difficult subject upon which to speak, and will require considerable intellectual thought for you to apply or communicate to others within the present illusion. How can one reduce to a mathematics fabricated within a system of illusion a truth that is totally outside the boundaries of that system? It may be possible, however, to make certain statements regarding the relationships between space and time in any system that will help to guide an individual attempting to work within a limited system to understand the truth of the actions and the limits of that system of phenomena of time. It would, however, be much better to eliminate from the individual’s consciousness preconceived notions of the nature of both time and space, for they are not what they seem to be, as depicted by their phenomena within the boundaries of your present limitations.

Space may be thought of as linear, if time is thought of as volumetric. Or you may reverse the process, as you do within your limitation, and consider space volumetric and time linear. Either is true. And either may be perceived to be true, depending upon the limitations of your thought. It is possible to move linearly in space and volumetrically in time, all with the same movement. You can be aware of what you call the past, the present, and the future, simultaneously.

Time is not so much time as it is space, and space is not so much space as it is time. They are one and the same thing, and yet they are reciprocally related. For is not 1/1=1? For there is only one thing and we are all parts of it.

There are six dimensions, but you must speak of three. And time is a field, and radiates from each nucleus of matter in all directions and may be evaluated as T = S3/3, where T is time and S is space.

I will be happy to speak with you in the future regarding this subject. However, it is thought that it will be necessary to consider that which has been given to you before further instruction will be of great benefit. It is a very difficult bridge to travel, between a world of semantics and a place of being. But we will serve you in any way that we can.

I am Oxal. I will leave you at this time. Adonai vasu borragus. It has been a great privilege. Peace be with you.

Source: https://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/1973/1973_0800.aspx

************************************************

Although Ra has used the terms "density" and "dimension" interchangeable, they used also as a synonym of "plane" or "place":

Quote:Therefore, this was not pursued further. There was a landing approximately three oh oh oh, three thousand [3,000], of your years ago also in your South America, as you call it. There were a few attempts to aid your peoples approximately two three oh oh [2,300] years ago, this in the area of Egypt. The remaining part of the cycle, we have never been gone from your fifth dimension and have been working in this last minor cycle to prepare for harvest.
(14.4)

That's indicates that fifth dimension is like a place. Here is a stretch from L/L Transcripts with something like that:

Quote:H: I have a question. I keep reading in the literature—metaphysical literature, psychic literature—that there are seven levels, seven states of consciousness, seven heavens, or something of this sort. Is this a valid concept?

We are aware of the question. I am Hatonn. You are no doubt familiar with the concept of quantum mechanics and also with the octave which you may find on any piano.

There are in a major scale, as this instrument would put it, seven different notes, having a relationship to each other which is pleasant. And then there is an octave. In that octave there is an identity—top note with bottom and the tonality begins again. Thus it is with quanta, where you have just so much occurring within a quantum; and then there is a leap, shall we say, to another set of configurations.

There has often been in your culture the term “seventh heaven” heard, and it is only one of many popular beliefs that there is not only a heaven but that there are various heavens for those who have done various things,

Your rather primitive Christian dogma would limit one’s heavens to two—one good and one bad—with a rather neutral zone in between for those who have not yet decided whether to be bad or good. This is not accurate.

There are, indeed, seven levels within the realm within the next dimension or quantum—from you. This plane has been called by Theosophists the astral plane. Beyond that quantum there is a further octave of seven, and that plane is sometimes called the devachanic. Beyond that plane there is another octave of seven, which is sometimes called spiritual by your people. Beyond that plane few among your peoples who are incarnate upon your planet have traveled.

There are an infinite number of octaves in the heavenly music. The number seven, however, is the number of completeness, for that is, shall we say, the scale of vibrations within each quantum.

Source: https://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/1979/1979_0617.aspx

If astral plane is the fourth dimension, the planes, the rays and the dimensions are not related, for example, red ray = physical plane = third dimension (but the third ray is the yellow not red). The lower, middle and higher astral planes being only one dimension or plane, and not three differente separations of the rays of colors. This is a really confuse subject.
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05-19-2019, 12:38 AM,
#51
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-18-2019, 11:03 PM)Infinite Wrote:  Perhaps you confused this passage from Oxal with LOO:

Source: https://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/1973/1973_0800.aspx

That wasn't quite the section I was thinking about, but it sounds like it is saying roughly the same thing.

(05-18-2019, 11:03 PM)Infinite Wrote:  Although Ra has used the terms "density" and "dimension" interchangeable, they used also as a synonym of "plane" or "place":

That's correct. They used dimension, plane, and density interchangeably at times. I don't agree with that, but I think generally they were only referring to one type of thing. I think they were using "dimension" and "density" to refer to "planes".

(05-18-2019, 11:03 PM)Infinite Wrote:  
Quote:[b]There are, indeed, seven levels within the realm within the next dimension or quantum—from you. This plane has been called by Theosophists the astral plane

Sounds like they were referring to 4th density since they refer to the next "quantum" from us, rather than just saying "inner planes".

(05-18-2019, 11:03 PM)Infinite Wrote:  If astral plane is the fourth dimension, the planes, the rays and the dimensions are not related, for example, red ray = physical plane = third dimension (but the third ray is the yellow not red). The lower, middle and higher astral planes being only one dimension or plane, and not three differente separations of the rays of colors. This is a really confuse subject.

Yeah, like I said, I'm fairly confident they were using all three terms in the sense of "planes". And I suppose that isn't a totally incorrect use of the words, because they were often used that way in popular culture at large, especially at the time of the channeling.

I see densities as different types of identification (with each of the true color rays). I see planes as different vibrational realms existing within the context of identification. And I see dimensions as 90 degree spatial/temporal directions.

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05-19-2019, 08:02 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-19-2019, 08:33 AM by Infinite.)
#52
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-19-2019, 12:38 AM)anagogy Wrote:  That wasn't quite the section I was thinking about, but it sounds like it is saying roughly the same thing.

Curious. I read the whole LOO, but not remember of Ra talking about of three dimensions of time and three dimensions of space.

(05-19-2019, 12:38 AM)anagogy Wrote:  That's correct. They used dimension, plane, and density interchangeably at times. I don't agree with that, but I think generally they were only referring to one type of thing. I think they were using "dimension" and "density" to refer to "planes".

In the really, I wrote wrong. I meant they used the term "dimension" as synonym of "density. But sometimes, as synonym of "plane" or "place" (as portion of our third density). But you understood.


(05-19-2019, 12:38 AM)anagogy Wrote:  Sounds like they were referring to 4th density since they refer to the next "quantum" from us, rather than just saying "inner planes".

I believe they used the term "quantum" many times as density or sub-densities. Here other examples:

Quote:H2: I have another question, since you’re here, Latwii. It’s something you said several weeks ago, when you were talking about the color green and its filling a room in which we dwelled in another part—not here but somewhere else—and you also said that you were enjoying our fifth dimension—I assume the vibration of our fifth dimension. Does that mean that we exist elsewhere as well as here?

It is not a question of location, my brother, for the dimensions are interpenetrating. However, you exist in denser and denser vibrations, according to your abilities. All of you exist into the fourth dimension, and there are adepts among you who are working at this time, actively, in the fifth dimension and are attempting to understand some of the teachings of the inner realms of the sixth dimension. There are a few people who work as far as the eighth, but there are two within this room who have seen it in visions and are aware of its nature, although they could not maintain it for any length of time. This is the octave of your universe, and these are the dimensions of that octave. To go beyond that, you must be free of your chemical body; and therefore we are talking to a roomful of those who are not going to be doing that any time terribly soon; however, there are many, many infinities to explore within those dimensions and much wisdom to learn. Therefore, we urge you onward; for the path becomes lighter, the teachings truer, and the laughter happier.

Source: https://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/1979/1979_0719.aspx

Quote:We are aware of the question. We will attempt to answer through this instrument. Your understanding, shall we say, is consciously of a physical nature. As you well know, in addition to the physical universe there dwell within your planetary spheres finer dimensions which possess their reality and are peopled with their own characters. In the dimension which is called by some of your peoples the lower astral planes, there dwell but these same peoples but are called thought forms. These thought forms are what you may call archetypes. They include your whole array of demons and monsters, if you will, your myths, your so-called Big Foot, and vampire and werewolf and all the fantastic (inaudible) of bestial characters having been created by the archetypical imaginations of your peoples dwell as thoughts forms and [they] come into your reality because of the excessive and pointed emotions. The place that such entities will appear is dependent on a seemingly random energy pattern and is, in effect, not random. To explain it to you would be far too complex for easy transmission. For the energies of the planet, the race, and what you call your nations and states and cities, your individuals, all must he taken into account.

Source: https://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/1978/1978_0313.aspx

Many times they used they term "dimension" as a place.

(05-19-2019, 12:38 AM)anagogy Wrote:  I see densities as different types of identification (with each of the true color rays). I see planes as different vibrational realms existing within the context of identification. And I see dimensions as 90 degree spatial/temporal directions.

I see densities as vibrational frequencies and planes as space and time. So, inside a density there're infinities planes or maybe we can call "dimensions". The confusion starts when we try identify these planes and their configurations. Probably the experimentation of these places is the only way to understand that subject correctly.
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05-19-2019, 06:25 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-19-2019, 06:30 PM by anagogy.)
#53
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-19-2019, 08:02 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Curious. I read the whole LOO, but not remember of Ra talking about of three dimensions of time and three dimensions of space.

I could be just completely out of my gourd. ;)

(05-19-2019, 08:02 AM)Infinite Wrote:  I believe they used the term "quantum" many times as density or sub-densities.

Do you have an example where they used quantum to refer to sub-density? I would be interested to see that if you have an example.

(05-19-2019, 08:02 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Here other examples:


Quote:H2: I have another question, since you’re here, Latwii. It’s something you said several weeks ago, when you were talking about the color green and its filling a room in which we dwelled in another part—not here but somewhere else—and you also said that you were enjoying our fifth dimension—I assume the vibration of our fifth dimension. Does that mean that we exist elsewhere as well as here?

It is not a question of location, my brother, for the dimensions are interpenetrating. However, you exist in denser and denser vibrations, according to your abilities. All of you exist into the fourth dimension, and there are adepts among you who are working at this time, actively, in the fifth dimension and are attempting to understand some of the teachings of the inner realms of the sixth dimension. There are a few people who work as far as the eighth, but there are two within this room who have seen it in visions and are aware of its nature, although they could not maintain it for any length of time. This is the octave of your universe, and these are the dimensions of that octave. To go beyond that, you must be free of your chemical body; and therefore we are talking to a roomful of those who are not going to be doing that any time terribly soon; however, there are many, many infinities to explore within those dimensions and much wisdom to learn. Therefore, we urge you onward; for the path becomes lighter, the teachings truer, and the laughter happier.

You see here it appears to me, that again they are referring to densities. When they talk about some utilizing the 8th level, in my opinion they are referring to the octave density, because there is no 8th subdensity. When they say we all exist in the fourth dimension, they are referring to the fact that we are in the 4th density space/time continuum right now. We are still 3D in structure, but we are being gradually molded by the new space/time parameters as we gradually morph into 4th density physical.

And we know from Ra quotes that there is a chemical body in fourth density, unless you believe that is distortion. Personally I don't. So when they say going beyond our octave means you no longer have a chemical body, this again points to densities to me, because that would in fact, be true in that case as the octave transition is truly beyond physical parameters of all kinds.

(05-19-2019, 08:02 AM)Infinite Wrote:  
Quote:We are aware of the question. We will attempt to answer through this instrument. Your understanding, shall we say, is consciously of a physical nature. As you well know, in addition to the physical universe there dwell within your planetary spheres finer dimensions which possess their reality and are peopled with their own characters. In the dimension which is called by some of your peoples the lower astral planes, there dwell but these same peoples but are called thought forms. These thought forms are what you may call archetypes. They include your whole array of demons and monsters, if you will, your myths, your so-called Big Foot, and vampire and werewolf and all the fantastic (inaudible) of bestial characters having been created by the archetypical imaginations of your peoples dwell as thoughts forms and [they] come into your reality because of the excessive and pointed emotions. The place that such entities will appear is dependent on a seemingly random energy pattern and is, in effect, not random. To explain it to you would be far too complex for easy transmission. For the energies of the planet, the race, and what you call your nations and states and cities, your individuals, all must he taken into account.

Here they appear to legitimately be referring to inner planes within the 3rd density spectrum.

(05-19-2019, 08:02 AM)Infinite Wrote:  
(05-19-2019, 12:38 AM)anagogy Wrote:  I see densities as different types of identification (with each of the true color rays). I see planes as different vibrational realms existing within the context of identification. And I see dimensions as 90 degree spatial/temporal directions.

I see densities as vibrational frequencies and planes as space and time. So, inside a density there're infinities planes or maybe we can call "dimensions". The confusion starts when we try identify these planes and their configurations. Probably the experimentation of these places is the only way to understand that subject correctly.

Gotcha, interesting. The reason why I say density is about identification is because you can have two different beings, for example, a feline and human, each being of a separate density, but both in the same physical plane together. The feline is identified with orange ray and thus it sees the physical plane through the perspective of orange ray. The human is identified with yellow ray, and thus it sees the physical plane through the perspective of yellow ray. But again, they both occupy the same physical plane.

But I suppose, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what words you use as long as you understand the context in which you are using them. Thanks for your thoughts.

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05-20-2019, 12:01 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-20-2019, 12:03 AM by flofrog.)
#54
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
Really interesting to me too Infinite. I was always tempted when reading Ra to think of what would be our third density as a dimension as I was thinking seeing the world around me in three D and then indeed, density, even though I didn't put it into words as you did so well, density appearing in effect much more an idea of vibration... thank you very very much... So yes for Earth evolving from her plane apparently in 3D, but already in 4th density in vibration.

really cool Heart
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05-20-2019, 07:58 AM,
#55
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-19-2019, 06:25 PM)anagogy Wrote:  Do you have an example where they used quantum to refer to sub-density? I would be interested to see that if you have an example.

I'll search. If I find I'll post.

(05-19-2019, 06:25 PM)anagogy Wrote:  You see here it appears to me, that again they are referring to densities. When they talk about some utilizing the 8th level, in my opinion they are referring to the octave density, because there is no 8th subdensity. When they say we all exist in the fourth dimension, they are referring to the fact that we are in the 4th density space/time continuum right now. We are still 3D in structure, but we are being gradually molded by the new space/time parameters as we gradually morph into 4th density physical.

Just analyse the question: "...and you also said that you were enjoying our fifth dimension". "Our" means not the fifth dimension of the ET's. But the fifth dimension of our third density. So, I believe Latwii was talking about the dimensions of third density. Probably "all of you exist on fourth dimension" referred to astral plane, because all people can access, but the other planes are more restricted.

And, do you believe is possible a 3D entity go to another density (a true color density not sub-density plane)? I don't believe. On another transcript is said that isn't possible go to another density:

Quote:Questioner: Yes, thank you. I got a letter today from a brother who is very, very busy seeking Nirvana of the quickie variety and he would like to know the answer to a question which is difficult for me to fathom. However, I will ask it as he asked it because I would very much appreciate being able to send him a reply. He has studied under a yogic philosophy for many years and would very much like to return to the source. He identifies this source as being at the ninth density. He would like to know if it is possible to bypass all the intervening densities in this lifetime and go back to the source using his yogic practices. Could you comment on these concepts and help our brother, who is truly an earnest seeker, in any way that you see appropriate, please?

I am Laitos, and am aware of your question. We are also aware that entities such as this brother upon your planet at this time seek with great intensity the meaning of their lives and a path which might bring them that which might be called enlightenment. Many are the ways which your peoples have chosen to seek this path throughout the history of your planet. Each path has provided integral pieces of the puzzle, shall we say, which are most necessary for the sincere seeker to utilize in the polarization of the self to a degree which is, shall we say, harvestable. Many such paths have produced those called the saints, the avatars, the gurus, each of which, through disciplined exercises of many kinds, has been able to balance the centers of energy in your mind and body/mind/spirit complex to a degree that is necessary for this harvest into the next density of the illusion of the one Creator. Each discipline, while providing a viable path for the spiritual evolution, also contains those facets which may be considered distortions or misapprehensions of certain spiritual qualities and descriptions.

It is our humble understanding that the path of spiritual evolution must be one which is straight and narrow and of some considerable length, traveling through many illusions and densities with the one goal of becoming one with the Creator. What this means for each entity in any illusion is that the instreamings of the love/light of the one Creator are available for use by each entity; this love/light or prana being channeled through the energy centers or chakras, if you will, in such a manner that the light is used efficiently, each density providing the seeker of union with a greater intensity of light.

Upon the completion of the cycle of incarnations in any density an entity is given the opportunity to, shall we say, grade itself by being bathed in the light of the one Creator until it is no longer able to withstand or utilize the increasing intensity of light. This light has degrees shall we say, of vibration. When the entity can no longer withstand or use the light, then it stops at that point and that point falls where it may. Wherever it falls it is then the entity’s choice, by its own ability to use the light, to continue its study in the appropriate illusion which matches the intensity of light which has been utilized.

Few there are upon your planet at this time who can withstand the intensity of the light of the fourth density. For this light is what might be called a quantum leap beyond that which you now experience within your third density.
If any entity were to experience it for but a moment and be able to withstand it, for that moment that entity would feel indeed that it had returned to its Source and would most likely be quite appreciative of that experience. For such seekers as your brother to desire to progress more rapidly than is possible, shall we say, realizing that all things are possible, is a commendable trait, but one which is not likely to be realized, for though your density provides an intense degree of catalyst and opportunity for traveling the spiritual path, to the best of our knowledge, it does not provide enough catalyst to build the polarity necessary to, shall we say, skip any density.

To the best of our knowledge, when this octave of densities is completed the individualized entities will find themselves at the level of the eighth density— one with the Source of this particular creation. But our teachers have not themselves found such union nor have their teachers told them of an end to such progressions.

We shall continue. For an entity to return to the Source does not mean the end to evolution. For an entity to desire to progress spiritually as rapidly as possible is quite commendable, but we would suggest that it is most necessary to learn to walk, shall we say, before one runs or flies or soars beyond the start. Yours is a density in which the child learns to crawl. Rejoice in the opportunities which are thusly presented to you.

(05-19-2019, 06:25 PM)anagogy Wrote:  When they talk about some utilizing the 8th level, in my opinion they are referring to the octave density, because there is no 8th subdensity.

Perhaps in "...as far as the eighth" they were talking about all third density as one thing. This is, people who can acess all dimensions.

(05-19-2019, 06:25 PM)anagogy Wrote:  And we know from Ra quotes that there is a chemical body in fourth density, unless you believe that is distortion.

On the transcripts they refers fourth density as electrical. I don't know why. I can search the stretchs. But, this is only important to understand that they were talking about third density body.

(05-19-2019, 06:25 PM)anagogy Wrote:  But again, they both occupy the same physical plane.

It's because the three first densities are about physical development. On the fourth starts spiritual refinement. It's like the planes. Astral level start becoming very different from physical plane. So, all the three first densities occurs in the physical plane. The others, on astral, mental, etc. characteristic environments.
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05-20-2019, 08:27 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-20-2019, 11:09 AM by Infinite.)
#56
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
Interesting:

Quote:This 90 degrees is a very important part of this work. The 90-degree turn is crucial to understanding how to make resurrection or ascension real. The dimensional levels are separated by 90 degrees; musical notes are separated by 90 degrees; the chakras are separated by 90 degree-90 degrees keeps coming up over and over again. In fact, in order for us to enter into the fourth dimension (or any dimension, for that matter), we must make a 90-degree turn.

Probably at this point I need to make sure we have a common understanding about what dimensions are-like third dimension, fourth dimension, fifth dimension and so forth. What are we talking about? I'm not talk-ing about dimensions in a normal mathematical sense, as in the three axes or so-called dimensions of space: the x, y and z axes-front to back, left to right and up and down. Some people call these three axes the third dimension and say that time becomes the fourth dimension. This is not what I'm talking about.

[...]

The dimensional levels are nothing but differing base-rate wavelengths. The only difference between this dimension and any other is the length of its basic waveform. It's just like a television or radio set. When you turn the dial, you pick up a different wavelength. Then you get a different image on your TV screen or a different station on your radio. It's exactly the same for dimensional levels. If you were to change the wavelength of your consciousness, and in so doing change all your body patterns to a wavelength different from this universe, you would literally disappear out of this world and reappear in the one to which you were tuned.

This is exactly what the UFOs do when you see them shooting across the sky, if you've ever seen one. They shoot across at unbelievable speeds, then make a 90-degree turn and disappear. The people onboard those ships are not being carried through space like we are on airplanes. Spaceship passengers are consciously connected psychically to the vehicle itself, and when they get ready to go into another world, they go into meditation and link all aspects of themselves into oneness. Then they make either a 90-degree shift or two 45-degree shifts all at once in their minds, actually taking the whole ship, along with its passengers, into another dimension.

Source: "Ancient Secret of The Flower of Life - Vol.1" by Drunvalo Melchizedek
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05-20-2019, 03:30 PM,
#57
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
(05-20-2019, 07:58 AM)Infinite Wrote:  Just analyse the question: "...and you also said that you were enjoying our fifth dimension". "Our" means not the fifth dimension of the ET's. But the fifth dimension of our third density. So, I believe Latwii was talking about the dimensions of third density. Probably "all of you exist on fourth dimension" referred to astral plane, because all people can access, but the other planes are more restricted.

I think that could be interpreted in different ways. "Our" could refer to the 5th density space associated with the earth, hence why it is associated with "us".

Also, the way I view rays in relation to densities is this: a ray is a portion of a density (and a density is vibrational identification with a certain concentration of light/vibration).

Now, how "big" a portion that ray constitutes is a factor of what density level you are. So all the rays, or energy centers, are "plugged" into the seven densities if you want to think of it that way. So we are third density, our blue ray center is connected to the devachanic realm. It is the exact same devachanic realm a fifth density being is in. The only difference is because we are a lower density being we partake "less purely" of that realm than a native fifth density would. So what I'm trying to explain is that the inner planes of 3rd density and the inner planes of 5th density are not separated from my perspective. They are connected. One just partakes less purely of that light than the other being. A third density being may project into that realm, they can access it, but it would be like a child wandering into a college. They are lost and confused by the complexity, but there is no separation there. All is available.

(05-20-2019, 07:58 AM)Infinite Wrote:  And, do you believe is possible a 3D entity go to another density (a true color density not sub-density plane)? I don't believe.

Like I said in the previous example, all the planes are connected, and a 3D entity can go to other densities "native planes", they just may not understand them or tolerate them well. Just like a rock, a feline, and a human sit in the physical plane together, so too can they call interact on the lower, middle, and higher astral, devachanic, causal, and buddhic plane. But the developmment, or complexity, on each given plane is a factor of density of light of consciousness. So just like a rock has a more simple physical expression than a human, so too are all the manifestations on the other planes simple as well. But all the planes are connected with the densities. Again, there is no separation there from my perspective. All the physical realms of every density are together as well. The only reason we can't see the "physicality" of higher densities is because it is being deliberately concealed from us. If it wasn't, it would just as visible as 2nd density, and 1st density are to us. It is just one physical plane with various degrees of complexity and stratification.

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
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09-01-2019, 10:53 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-01-2019, 11:12 AM by Infinite.)
#58
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
As Ra said, the planes are not so important, because which really matters is the mystical search for unity:

Quote:The space/time and time/space concepts are those concepts describing as mathematically as possible the relationships of your illusion, that which is seen to that which is unseen. These descriptive terms are clumsy. They, however, suffice for this work.

In the experiences of the mystical search for unity, these need never be considered, for they are but part of an illusory system. The seeker seeks the One. This One is to be sought, as we have said, by the balanced and self-accepting self, aware both of its apparent distortions and its total perfection. Resting in this balanced awareness, the entity then opens the self to the universe which it is. The light energy of all things may then be attracted by this intense seeking, and wherever the inner seeking meets the attracted cosmic prana, realization of the One takes place.
(57.33)

Therefore, this is a transient subject. And it will be a little long.

*****************************************************************
Since I read this answer of anagogy, I was taking that as true:

(09-22-2016, 06:11 AM)anagogy Wrote:  Red Ray = Physical Plane/Prime Material/This is also the Etheric Plane (as is commonly referenced in occult literature -- not the version Ra was talking about). This is the most congealed manifestation of form, or tangibility.
Orange Ray = Lower Astral Plane (Selfish Vibrations/Vibrations Concerning Self/Lust/Personal Power/Lower Emotional Realm)
Yellow Ray = Middle Astral Plane (Awareness of difference between Self and Other/Societal Vibrations/Personhood in relationship to groups of entities/this is where you begin to see astral cities or conglomerations of souls living together/Lower mental plane.)
Green Ray = Higher Astral Plane (Awareness of others vibrations/empathy/understanding of what another is experiencing/unconditional love/astral heaven type worlds/awareness of harmony/higher emotional plane).
Blue Ray = Devachanic Plane/Mental Plane/vibrations of free communication and pure conceptual ideals/repository of the "pure vibrations" of a thing at a conceptual level/conceptual archetypes after which every further instance of a particular idea is a patternization of, i.e., Plato's ideas of "ideal forms")
Indigo Ray = Causal Plane (Awareness of self as an expression of Intelligent Energy/awareness of self as creator/what Ra called the "etheric body" or the place where light is given form. Think of it as an "eye" or "shutter" that focuses light, giving it form, which is why it is the primal Form Maker.
Violet Ray = Buddhic Plane or alternatively the "Atmic Plane" or the level of 'Christ Consciousness'. Realm of wholeness, and awareness of connection with everything. This is where the m/b/s totality resides. An awareness of the totality of experiential balance. This is the most intangible and "not constrained by form" level.

But recently I've been thinking about and finding possible distortions in his view (although I have no formed opinion about the subject, because it's a really complex one).

Firstly, there are two ways of analyse that question:

1) We can think in space/time and time/space together as the 7 divisions of 3D.

2) Or we can think in space/time portion of 3D as having 7 divisions and the time/space as well. Observation: Of course each plane has 7 divisions which increase infinitely in reason of 7. But here, I refer to the 7 divisions or main colors of 3D.

I'll consider the first possibility as anagogy did.

When analyzing these questions I always use the hermetic principle of correspondence: "as above, so below". The microcosm is a reflex of the macrocosm and vice versa. Thus, the 7 chakras and the 7 bodies would be microcosmic repetions of the 7 densities and the 7 sub-densities of the 3D (the planes). It's possible to say that there is a body related to each one of the chakras and its respective ray.

I also always analyse these questions through the colors rays due the characteristics of each ray and the similarities between microcosm and the macrocosm with regards to these rays.

What I've been thinking is that perhaps the physical plane is not the first plane (red-ray portion of 3D), but the third plane (yellow-ray portion of 3D). Before I explain, let's analyse the bodies listed by Ra:

Quote:The red-ray body is your chemical body. However, it is not the body which you have as clothing in the physical. It is the unconstructed material of the body, the elemental body without form. This basic unformed material body is important to understand for there are healings which may be carried out by the simple understanding of the elements present in the physical vehicle.

The orange-ray body is the physical body complex. This body complex is still not the body you inhabit but rather the body formed without self-awareness, the body in the womb before the spirit/mind complex enters. This body may live without the inhabitation of the mind and spirit complexes. However, it seldom does so.

The yellow-ray body is your physical vehicle which you know of at this time and in which you experience catalyst. This body has the mind/body/spirit characteristics and is equal to the physical illusion, as you have called it.

The green-ray body is that body which may be seen in séance when what you call ectoplasm is furnished. This is a lighter body packed more densely with life. You may call this the astral body following some other teachings. Others have called this same body the etheric body. However, this is not correct in the sense that the etheric body is that body of gateway wherein intelligent energy is able to mold the mind/body/spirit complex.

The light body or blue-ray body may be called the devachanic body. There are many other names for this body especially in your so-called Indian Sutras or writings, for there are those among these peoples which have explored these regions and understand the various types of devachanic bodies. There are many, many types of bodies in each density, much like your own.

The indigo-ray body which we choose to call the etheric body is, as we have said, the gateway body. In this body form is substance and you may only see this body as that of light as it may mold itself as it desires.

The violet-ray body may perhaps be understood as what you might call the Buddha body or that body which is complete.
(47.8)

Note that the bodies of red and orange rays are not, different than expected, the physical body. According Ra, the physical body is of the yellow-ray (this itself is already different of all traditions I ever studied which generally relate the basic chakra (red-ray) with the physical body). For this reason, I thought that perhaps the yellow-ray body should inhabit the plane or sub-density corresponding the yellow-ray. As apparently it happens with the more subtle bodies: astral, mental, causal and buddhic which inhabits their respective colors. Thus, the physical plane would be the third, not the fisrt.

However, I've no idea of which would be the first two planes (red and orange) as I still don't understand what the first two bodies are.

A HYPOTHESIS I have now is that we can relate these two first planes with the 1D and 2D perceptions of physical plane, as the first two bodies of 3D entities are analogues to 1D and 2D bodies. I don't know, it's just a supposition. Many sources say we are in the third dimension, although I'm not sure that my hypothesis have much to do with height, width and depth. But, a interesting thing I found is the view of the authoress Lyssa Royal (which use the same terminology of Ra) about the first three densities, in your book "The Prism of Lyra":

Quote:FIRST DENSITY: Awareness as a point; Physical matter. This frequency level is the most basic. It provides the matter and energy for the creation of atoms and molecules. The basic life forms of mineral and water, for example, are all operating from first-density frequency. Humans possess this frequency within themselves as well. It makes up the basic genetic codes.

SECOND DENSITY: Awareness as a line; Biological matter; Development of group or species identity. The consciousness expressed by second-density vibration does not possess self-awareness (or ego). Most species within the plant and animal kingdoms exist here; however, their placement in density depends upon many additional factors, including the presence or absence of ego.

THIRD DENSITY: Volumetric awareness; Ego; Loss of group identity, development of individual identity; Ability to 4 DIMENSIONAL INFUSION remember past and cognize the future while retaining present awareness. This is the density where human beings emerge. It is a vibration that creates the illusion of separation and thus a challenge toward awakening. Presently humanity is going through a transition period into fourth-density reality which can account for the many rapid changes the human race is undergoing. This is the frequency that expresses the most separation from the Whole. It is from here that many lessons about integration are learned. This is the most intense of all levels in its cultivation of growth within the Self. Cetaceans (dolphins and whales) presently exist simultaneously in third and fourth densities and are transitioning out of third along with humanity. The consciousness of primates exists in third density as well. The evolution of primates is becoming increasingly apparent, as one begins to observe them displaying several characteristics that were once thought of as indigenous only to humans (such as language acquisition and pathological behavior).

In Lyssa's view there are conexions of the 1D, 2D and 3D perceptions with height, width and depth. And also, it seems to me that each density has elements evolved from previous densities (I quote again the first two bodies of 3D entities being analogues to the 1D and 2D bodies).

Well, this is mine current hypothesis about the correspondences of chakras, bodies, planes and densities in 3D perspective:

[Image: 5eDUqij.png]

1 - I used the word "electrical" to refer to traditional etheric body because Ra used this term:

Quote:Forgetting the pyramid will be of aid to you in the study of these experiences. The instreamings of energy are felt by the energy centers which need, and are prepared for, activation. Thus those who feel the stimulation at violet-ray level are getting just that. Those feeling it within the forehead between the brows are experiencing indigo ray and so forth. Those experiencing tinglings and visual images are having some blockage in the energy center being activated and thus the electrical body spreads this energy out and its effect is diffused.
(50.12)

2 - The same of the note above. I used the term "electrical" to refer the metaphysical portion of the physical plane.

The only problem with that my hypothesis, is how divide the levels red and orange in 7 portions.

*****************************************************************

About astral plane and the lower, middle and higher levels. It makes much sense what anagogy wrote. But, Ra related the astral body with the green-ray and seems to me (basing myself in the hermetic principle of the correspondence) that astral plane (with all your divisions) would be the subdivision of green-ray (4D) in our 3D.

Ra answered like that about astral plane:

Quote:17.36 Questioner: I’ve heard that there are seven astral and seven devachanic primary levels. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. You speak of some of the more large distinctions in levels in your inner planes. That is correct.

Quote:17.37 Questioner: Well, who inhabit the astral and who inhabit the devachanic planes?

Ra: I am Ra. Entities inhabit the various planes due to their vibrational nature. The astral plane varies from thought-forms in the lower extremities to enlightened beings who become dedicated to teach/learning in the higher astral planes.

In the devachanic planes, as you call them, are those whose vibrations are even more close to the primal distortions of love/light.

Beyond these planes there are others.

Ra used the term "astral plane" in the singular and the word "extremities" implying that is a unique distinction or color of our 3D. When Ra use "astral planes" to refer to the higher astral, I suppose Ra was talking about the sub-colors green to violet of the astral plane or perhaps, of the infinite frequencies that each sub-color contains.

Unfortunately Ra didn't talk more about astral plane.

In addition, all traditions I ever studied says that astral plane has 7 astral levels which encompass the so-called lower, middle and higher astral planes. The Theosophy is an example of school that see all these divisions as part of one unique plane. For all these reasons, perhaps all the divisions would be sub-divisions of the green-ray or 4D representation of our 3D. Something like this:

[Image: pt8kv71.png]

1 - The abysm is the lower portion of the astral plane. I read about in books about magick and others with spiritualist approach (very commum in my country). It's a really dense and heavy place, where there are beings who can't get out there due the danger they represents to the other entities.

It's also interesting note that we can suppose the three lower levels of our astral would be the subdivisions corresponding to the fourth density negative levels. As Ra said, the colors green and blue are missing in the STS planets:

Quote:The vibratory rates are not to be understood as the same in positive and negative orientations. They are to be understood as having the power to accept and work with intelligent infinity to a certain degree or intensity. Due to the fact that the primary color, shall we say, or energy blue is missing from the negatively oriented system of power, the green/blue vibratory energies are not seen in the vibratory schedules or patterns of negative fourth and fifth rates of vibration.
(47.3)

Quote:Let us clarify further. As we have previously stated, all beings have the potential for all possible vibratory rates. Thus the potential of the green and blue energy center activation is, of course, precisely where it must be in a creation of Love. However, the negatively polarized entity will have achieved harvest due to extremely efficient use of red and yellow/orange, moving directly to the gateway indigo bringing through this intelligent energy channel the instreamings of intelligent infinity.
(47.4)

A friend who already worked in a group which fight with STS aliens, said to me (and I also read that in books) that the STS aliens which comes to our planet generally stay in the lower and middle astral planes.
*****************************************************************
Finally, it's just a humble vision. I don't discard the anagogy's view and also don't take my view as better. It's just a hypothesis. I'm seeking the truth yet, although, as I said at the beginning of the post, the planes are not so important.
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09-18-2019, 06:42 PM,
#59
RE: Correspondence Between Densities and Traditional Planes of Existence
I have been thinking about the densities according to Ra in relation to the Fourth Way cosmology with its 7 cosmoses. So far, a logical unification seems to work out quite neatly. (On the Fourth Way teaching, Mouravieff's Gnosis books are the most philosophically compatible with Ra and this community.)


From the bottom up, the 7 cosmoses can be straightforwardly mapped to the 7 densities. Different types of bodies - including the subtle ones, and their theosophical labels (astral, mental, causal) - are mapped to different cosmoses as well. This is where it gets interesting.

1D: Outside the range of bodies. The bottom cosmos is the realm of "mineral life", or "inanimate" matter.

2D: Physical body. It is made of the same materials as plants and animals, hence is placed at exactly the same level. (Subtle life-energy or etheric layers are added at this level. These seem to be born and to die with the physical body.)

3D: Astral body. Above the near-physical levels of the invisible world, astral domains - and bodies of the "astral" type - are in the realm of 3D, part of human life but not that of plants and animals.

4D: Mental body. Its capabilities, as fully used by some accomplished yogis, include dematerialization, rematerialization, bilocation, etc. - which are 4D abilities.

5D: Causal body. The first level at which a being is so conscious that it can choose which chains of cause and effect it is involved in. At lower levels, the consciousness of the being is dwarfed by that of higher-density participants in the same drama, which seems to logically prevent this.

6D: Outside the range of bodies. Can a transcendent being which is One be said to have a body? (I think that in wanderers, some type of 5D construct is used as a "container" for the 6D presence to work through.)

7D: The level of the All, or Absolute, or Creator.


I find this to make more sense than pop-spiritual classification schemes, which to me seem to confuse levels and to view many things as higher in density (or generic "level" or "plane") than justified in comparison with Ra's cosmology, the Fourth Way teaching, and others that present higher realms as truly "real" in existence and effects of interaction.

But I tend to take descriptions of 4D attributes and those of other higher densities very seriously. Then the common teachings all seem to trivialize it away, when you compare what practitioners do with how densities are described.
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