More venting and a goodbye gift

Agua · 04-16-2018, 07:32 AM,

Dear Community!
Now it is time for some venting for me!
I feel encouraged by Peregrine´s thread (Wisdom run Amok) and I wholeheartedly agree!
(Although I´m not quite sure "where" he puts me in that regard)
But I dont want to derail his thread, that´s why I started a new one.
I have to say in advance, that probably some might feel offended, this is not my intention, my intention is rather a wake-up call!

i have been here before as some might know, but I left since I felt what I have to share is not of use for anyone here.
And I have to say, things didnt change much and I am at the same point again.

The experiences and methods I am trying to share require an openness to go beyond the intellect and the willingness to "activate" deeper portions of your being, which is your HEART!
However, everytime I suggest something or contribute something along these lines, there is a strong resistance!
Either the thread just dies and nobody answers anymore, or there is some strange answers just relativating and refering to the form or some other outer aspect. Mostly nobody refers to what I am actually saying. Just defensiveness!
Some members are expecially active in this, but its more of a general vibe.

Does anybody realize there is almost no "discussion" about the content of what I am trying to say?
Its just a debating "if" the intellect is usefull or not instead of "why". There´s no refering to the specific arguments I say.
Why is that?

That really baffles me!
I mean, you are all so very scientific in your approach. Thats fine!
But wouldnt it be a scientific approach to maybe just try it? Conduct an experiment, try what this idiot suggests, do it for a while and see what kind of results it brings!
But it seems it is just being ignored!

I am not saying never think again, I am not saying never use your brain again.
All I am saying is:
Can you be open to give it a try?
I cant believe what I am trying to convey does not make sense to you.

Why dont you sit down in meditation and try to not think for maybe ten minutes?
When you´ve done this and you really didnt experience something considerably deeper, and a whole new world, then okay, then this is not usefull for you.
But I suspect you simply cant!
So could it be you turn your limitations into a "method"?
Thoughts keep bothering you whenever you sit down to meditate.
But why the f*** is there never a discussion about "how can I get beyond?"? Why dont you ask such questions?
Would your image of "i am so advanced" collapse? Do you think the others dont struggle with this?

Do you realize that there is no support if anyone offers something that is not technical, mechanical, intellectual, there is even a lot of resistance actually.
Did you notice, that over time everybody that has not a purely technical approach leaves this board? Maybe for frustration, lack of support, resistance…

I have to say, I give up up on this!
Let me share why I came to the conclusion the intellect is no good tool for seeking and why I think it is the biggest obstacle on the spiritual path, consider it my goodbye gift.
There is no need to discuss this or answer or comment. Maybe you want to read it, maybe not, maybe you can use it maybe not.

Whenever you think, you move in a conceptualized world. You create an abstraction and then you think about your abstraction. You create your abstraction based on your beliefs, limitations.
There is not much to gain, it only reflects what you already know.
Its like standing on a beach and never having been in the ocean. Then you think about the ocean, you read books about the ocean, you discuss with people about the ocean, most of these people also never have been in there. Oh, there are so many experts on ocean!
But you still have not been in there. You can think and debate for years, it will not bring you closer to the actual experience, in fact, it keeps you from going in there.
You might even believe you "know" how its in there and there is no need to really get in.
In case you ever get into the ocean, you will realize, that all the concepts have nothing to do with being in the ocean, its so completely different from what you thought!
Do you wanna spend the rest of your life standing on the beach and already "knowing" everything about the ocean?

All concepts, all thinking has something in common:
Its the intensity. Or rather the lack of intensity.
If you think about a piece of s*** or the creator, it all has the same intensity, almost no intensity.
All deeper spiritual experience has an immense intensity in common!
Remember the "steps of light"? Moving along the steps until the intensity gets too much?
Do you notice the coincidence?

All thoughts, all concepts happen in a tiny little chamber. Oh, its a little bit cold in there, this is because there is no love, thought cuts you off from love.
The creator is love, life is love. It is warm and it is huge!
it is so incredibly huge you might fear to get lost in it!
Do you believe that any concept or thought in its abstractness, coldness, lifelessness and lovenessness will ever be able to make you understand what you truly are, what life truly is, what the creator truly is?
So you stay in that tiny little chamber. yes, its safe in there. Nothing can enter that you dont want in there, you can use denial for this. Nothing threatens you.
You can completely control it, it is YOUR abstraction!
But real life is dangerous, spiritual life is dangerous!
You have to become vulnerable again to experience the miracle of life again!
Maybe you remember that you have been like that when you were very young. You closed your heart.
You´re not vulnerable anymore.
The dangers of life are no threat to you anymore, you sit in your safe concept-chamber.
But you lost all the magic, you lost life, you lost compassion and you lost love!
Was is worth the price?
Would you be willing to take the risk and open up again, little by little, leave your intellectual snail-house and see, if its maybe safe now? Do you think regaining magic, love and life would be worth the risk?

Do you realize, that thinking analyzes, fragmentized and partitions every "thing" you view?
Do you realize that you move in a space of limited dimension?
All deeper spiritual experiences I have encountered so far have a few "aspects" in common:
its all so huge, there are no borders, its infinite, it feels infinite, it feels so multidimensional and at the same time dimensionless.
There is no space and at the same time an infinite space.How can you hope to "understand" infinity with a finite instrument, with an instrument whose very use creates borders and limitations by design?
It is all eternal, there is a complete absence of time and at the same time an infinite amount of what we experience as time.
How can you expect a tool that relies on time to make you understand eternity and presence?

In thinking, consciousness feels like being in a small circle, when not thinking, the circle expands greatly and suddenly becomes a sphere. It keeps not only gaining size but also more and more dimension(s).
Do you really believe that an instrument like the intellect can give you an accurate understanding of any spiritual matter when it excludes all the "aspects" that are the very core of the experience?

And do you believe you can understand wholeness by fragmentizing it (this really should make any serious seeker laugh!)?
You are wholesness, the creator is wholeness, life is wholeness, when you seperate this in portions you understand the portions but you still dont understand wholess!

And finally: presence
The creator is absolute presence. The closer you are to the creator, the more present you are.
The whole creation is present, living in the present moment.
Except humans. At least thinking humans.
You cannot think yourself into the present moment, you can only think yourself out of the present moment.
But presence is the core of each deeper spiritual experience. I bet many of you agree here.
When you take away "presence" from a spiritual experience, it has no depth anymore.
When you think, you take away presence.
So by thinking, you take away what is needed to have a deeper spitritual experience and so make it impossible, and then you seriously expect to have usefull results from a non-present conceptualized seeking :/

Meditation would be a nice example here:
It is probably the time or occassion where your seeking is most intense, since you´re turning "inward" fully.
Now, if you believe the intellect to be a good seeking tool, wouldnt it be logical that many thoughts arise, wouldnt it be logical that your favourite and beloved instruments becomes fully activated?

But I suspect you are afraid of going deeper.
You are afraid of stillness, you are afraid of your consciousness expanding, you are afraid of your heart opening.
And so you found the perfect solution:
You seek with the intellect!
You can have a credible self-image of someone who is seeking sincerely while at the same time and with the exact same tool preventing any of those dangerous things to arise!
Seeking with a tool that makes sure you dont find what you seek!
you cant be much safer from tall those dangers Smile

You might find this arrogant or whatever.
I have to say, I struggled and still struggle with all these things, just as you do.
But I do not deny it.And this helps me to move away from this more and more.

And so , dear fellow seekers, I hope that you are not only pissed now but maybe also inspired a little bit.
If not, I apologize for wasting your time.
I wont waste your time anymore nor will I waste mine.

I wish you all a good, fruitfull and enjoyable journey on this planet!

Sincerely
Agua

P.S.: For the not very probable case somebody feels drawn to discuss this further, feel free to PM me anytime

IndigoGeminiWolf · 04-16-2018, 07:48 AM,

Hey Agua,
I understand that you must go. It's been great talking with you.
You helped save my sanity I'm sure.
I have worked on being present as you suggested.
Thank you for being there for me, and for others.
I think regaining magic, love and life is worth the risk.
Yes, I had been afraid of expansion in the past, but am working to get past that.
I am not upset at all. Thank you for sharing.

Minyatur · 04-16-2018, 09:58 AM,

Have you considered that people put into practice most of what you talk about already?

Diana · 04-16-2018, 01:39 PM,

(04-16-2018, 07:32 AM)Agua Wrote: Do you realize that there is no support if anyone offers something that is not technical, mechanical, intellectual, there is even a lot of resistance actually.
Did you notice, that over time everybody that has not a purely technical approach leaves this board? Maybe for frustration, lack of support, resistance…

There is some truth in this as I recall this forum since 2011. I understand the frustration, but some of that frustration comes from attachment to outcomes. And considering that, why then be here at all? I wonder about this myself.

But for me it's no different than what I do in life. I live my life from my perspective and awareness, and there are others around me everywhere who aren't even slightly aware of the deeper things at play in this world. So I just continue to be me, and if I provide some sort of example I am not attached to that, because if I am I succumb to wanting to control things. And while there are so many things I would love to control (such as stopping military wars and factory farms) my understanding is that the only input I have is in who I am and what I do, (aside form becoming an activist).

I suppose I am very used to being outside the mainstream of thought, so perhaps it's easy for me to engage without results. It must be very challenging for those who are in the healing arts.

Thank you for your perspective, information, and experience. Heart

Surfboard · 04-16-2018, 01:42 PM,

Is it wrong if this made me laugh Sad

I would like to stress that I am unable to do what you suggest

You see, my Crohn's flares up if I concentrate on anything for too long

Even concentrating on not concentrating kills meh

Just remember everyone's dealing with their own distortions and predestined paths and not everyone is going to think like you since they haven't experienced your experiences

On a side note isn't this post an intellectually based opinion?

Ps I only skimmed tidbits and pieces due to crohns, so if something doesn't make sense, don't mind it

Minyatur · 04-16-2018, 07:33 PM,

The issue I see at hand here is to have great expectations toward seeing others reflect your own thematics in awakening, or personal steps.

These two quotes came to mind on the subject :

Quote:83.16 Questioner: What techniques and methods of penetration of the veil were planned and are there any others that have occurred other than those planned?

Ra: I am Ra. There were none planned by the first great experiment. As all experiments, this rested upon the nakedness of hypothesis. The outcome was unknown. It was discovered, experientially and empirically, that there were as many ways to penetrate the veil as the imagination of mind/body/spirit complexes could provide. The desire of mind/body/spirit complexes to know that which was unknown drew to them the dreaming and the gradual opening to the seeker of all of the balancing mechanisms leading to adepthood and communication with teach/learners which could pierce this veil.

The various unmanifested activities of the self were found to be productive in some degree of penetration of the veil. In general, we may say that by far the most vivid and even extravagant opportunities for the piercing of the veil are a result of the interaction of polarized entities.

Quote:15.7 Questioner: What is the greatest service that our population on this planet could perform individually?

Ra: I am Ra. There is but one service. The Law is One. The offering of self to Creator is the greatest service, the unity, the fountainhead. The entity who seeks the One Creator is with infinite intelligence. From this seeking, from this offering, a great multiplicity of opportunities will evolve depending upon the mind/body/spirit complexes’ distortions with regard to the various illusory aspects or energy centers of the various complexes of your illusion.

Thus, some become healers, some workers, some teachers, and so forth.

My personal advice to anyone struggling with having strong expectations toward this forum, and being frequently hurt over it, is to opt for the attitude those of Q'uo said we should have toward the entire world here :
You are not here to clean it up. You are not here to make it right. You are not here to fix it. You are here to love it. Take Bring4th in your arms and embrace it. This is how you came to serve. This is your glory and your crown. Wear it well and rejoice in being here.

Never in all my years here have I been displeased with the place. Yet, I've seen both people find it too focused on wisdom, just like I've seen others that found it not enough focused on wisdom. Across these two judgments, I've remained of the thought the forum is as the people composing it, and it does not make much sense to me to wish for the people to be otherwise than they are and express other people I would like more, and so I am left only able to wish that the person with a problem with the place may resolve their inner issue and become free to appreciate this place as much as I can appreciate it myself. Each person has something to bring so long you don't expect a singular offering from everyone.

Stranger · (This post was last modified: 04-16-2018, 08:08 PM by Stranger.)

The greatest lesson I think that I've learned so far is this: the goal of being in this place (whether forum or density) is to learn to vibrate love to the Creator behind every mask, in every circumstance. If you can't love the mask, love the Creator behind the mask - but still, love!

And if something comes along that brings up distress of some kind inside, balance it within you first. Figure out what's being triggered - because God's Great Sun is always shining love upon you; what, then, popped up inside you that is blocking that sun at the moment? Find it and love it away.

Then you end up in a balanced state - it doesn't have to be strong love, just friendly acceptance of what is, with kindness rather than demands toward all the players involved. Having reached that point, then you can venture forth and interact with the "external" reality - and your actions will automatically express that love. The treasure Love brings with it is its ability to bring all things into harmony, and your actions will automatically contribute to increasing harmony if they are imbued with love. But that harmony must exist within first, regardless of what exists outside.

peregrine · 04-17-2018, 04:33 AM,

(04-16-2018, 07:44 PM)Stranger Wrote: The greatest lesson I think that I've learned so far is this: the goal of being in this place (whether forum or density) is to learn to vibrate love to the Creator behind every mask, in every circumstance. If you can't love the mask, love the Creator behind the mask - but still, love!

No argument, but the challenge can be that wisdom comes organized one way an love comes organized differently, and it's not so easy to balance these.

Love doesn't sway, but surrenders and gives itself freely, whereas wisdom steps back and takes in the larger view. Structurally speaking, it's hard to do both of those together in the same moment, no?

Louisabell · (This post was last modified: 04-17-2018, 06:43 AM by Louisabell.)

I might be controversial here, but aren't people just doing the same thing that they're accusing Agua of doing by judging his experience as unloving or not accepting? I believe it can be a tremendously loving action to open up about your frustrations and disappointments to a whole forum, afterall isn't love just truth in essence?

I for one regret not being more responsive. I took value from your suggestions, Agua and I didn't really try to offer any value back. Perhaps I believed I had no value to offer. Not a useful belief.

Also, I do relate to what you are saying. I took my need to know very far and deconstructed my reality to the point that it started to turn on me, I experienced tremendous confusion and realised before I was truly ready that I basically didn't know anything for sure, anything. In this state the LOO could just as easily be my eternal liberation or alien brainwashing intended to induce psychosis. Who really knows? We are so vulnerable behind the veil, and I believe it is this vulnerability that is not being totally admitted to and explored here. Is this what you are saying?

Infinity is mind-blowing ecstasy, awe-inspiring and absolutely terrifying all in one, and that is still a foggy incomplete perception of it. I am reminded by certain trip reports where people who took psychedelics were taken way too far into the throws of infinity before they were ready and they experience the void - the place of thought where if you are everything, and all is one, does that also mean that you are totally alone for eternity, only using illusion to distract yourself of timeless isolation? Granted this is the danger of interfacing the ego with infinite realms, but still this experience has badly traumatised some foolhardy people.

It's really hard to not have any thought constructs to hold onto, just to have some context as you go hurling into the endless infinite waters of creation, even to be attached to non-attachment is a paradox.

Then there is what is. Not quite as stimulating, but the only real thing here. Like really listening to what someone has to say. Or just a smile. So thank you, frank honesty is always a gift to me.

*Bring4th_Plenum* · 04-17-2018, 08:07 AM,

Thanks for all your efforts Agua.

I know you have a message to share Smile

(04-16-2018, 07:32 AM)Agua Wrote: And finally: presence
The creator is absolute presence. The closer you are to the creator, the more present you are.
The whole creation is present, living in the present moment.
Except humans. At least thinking humans.
You cannot think yourself into the present moment, you can only think yourself out of the present moment.
But presence is the core of each deeper spiritual experience. I bet many of you agree here.
When you take away "presence" from a spiritual experience, it has no depth anymore.
When you think, you take away presence.
So by thinking, you take away what is needed to have a deeper spitritual experience and so make it impossible, and then you seriously expect to have usefull results from a non-present conceptualized seeking :/

There is some really deep truth here.

Some things just have to be experienced; before they can be comprehended.

Namaste.

JJCarsonian · 04-17-2018, 04:20 PM,

If this were a yahoo forum, i would be a complete troll, but i've tended to keep myself in check on these forums Wink

Anyways, i think its a little odd to get worked up over an idea. I really dont see anything wrong with "not thinking" during meditation. Both forms of meditation are perfectly helpful - i believe Ra discussed it in the material.

Ra did say that the purpose of space/time is to evolve, and one cannot evolve without reflecting. So if you never think, you never evolve... Thats not to say that you cant "not think" from time to time.

If you dont want to think and evolve, then thats noone's concern but your own.

Agua · 04-18-2018, 02:19 PM,

Thank you all for taking the time to respond, I appreciate that very much!
And thank you all who pm'ed me!

It will take some time to answer all of this carefully!

agua

flofrog · 04-18-2018, 04:04 PM,

Agua, we are all in the same pool though, dont give up !! Wink

Agua · 04-19-2018, 01:29 PM,

(04-16-2018, 07:48 AM)IndigoGeminiWolf Wrote: Hey Agua,
I understand that you must go. It's been great talking with you.
You helped save my sanity I'm sure.
I have worked on being present as you suggested.
Thank you for being there for me, and for others.
I think regaining magic, love and life is worth the risk.
Yes, I had been afraid of expansion in the past, but am working to get past that.
I am not upset at all. Thank you for sharing.

I really thank you for that, Indigo Smile

And I am very glad it did help at least for now!
Because I really care and hope you get through this all!

Agua · 04-19-2018, 01:30 PM,

(04-16-2018, 09:58 AM)Elros Wrote: Have you considered that people put into practice most of what you talk about already?

Honestly, no!
When I look at the feedback and the responses I get on that subject, no, not really...

Agua · 04-19-2018, 01:39 PM,

(04-16-2018, 01:39 PM)Diana Wrote:
(04-16-2018, 07:32 AM)Agua Wrote: Do you realize that there is no support if anyone offers something that is not technical, mechanical, intellectual, there is even a lot of resistance actually.
Did you notice, that over time everybody that has not a purely technical approach leaves this board? Maybe for frustration, lack of support, resistance…

There is some truth in this as I recall this forum since 2011. I understand the frustration, but some of that frustration comes from attachment to outcomes. And considering that, why then be here at all? I wonder about this myself.

But for me it's no different than what I do in life. I live my life from my perspective and awareness, and there are others around me everywhere who aren't even slightly aware of the deeper things at play in this world. So I just continue to be me, and if I provide some sort of example I am not attached to that, because if I am I succumb to wanting to control things. And while there are so many things I would love to control (such as stopping military wars and factory farms) my understanding is that the only input I have is in who I am and what I do, (aside form becoming an activist).

I suppose I am very used to being outside the mainstream of thought, so perhaps it's easy for me to engage without results. It must be very challenging for those who are in the healing arts.

Thank you for your perspective, information, and experience.

Thank you

As for the attachment, well, I am attached obviously!

This has two parts I guess.
One surely is a biographical thing and I could not heal it yet.
So it´s not easy to "detach", there´s a big danger of just denying, if you know what I mean.
And I dont want neither to disconnect from myself nor from the people I try to share with.
As long as there is something (I cant see yet) attached, I prefer to take the frustration or whatever and see where it leads me.
Frustration is not always bad.

And that would be the second part.
Sure I am hoping for a certain outcome.
I am not hoping for a special person to "provide" that outcome.
But if I have the impression that what I try to offer is not needed or not usefull, or people are simply not interested, then frustration is not sooo bad.
I makes me evaluate my "service".
I either have to modify my service or realize that its not the right community for what I have to offer.

I guess you know what I mean, I struggle with language here...

Diana · 04-19-2018, 01:42 PM,

(04-19-2018, 01:39 PM)Agua Wrote: Thank you
As for the attachment, well, I am attached obviously!

This has two parts I guess.
One surely is a biographical thing and I could not heal it yet.
So it´s not easy to "detach", there´s a big danger of just denying, if you know what I mean.
And I dont want neither to disconnect from myself nor from the people I try to share with.
As long as there is something (I cant see yet) attached, I prefer to take the frustration or whatever and see where it leads me.
Frustration is not always bad.

And that would be the second part.
Sure I am hoping for a certain outcome.
I am not hoping for a special person to "provide" that outcome.
But if I have the impression that what I try to offer is not needed or not usefull, or people are simply not interested, then frustration is not sooo bad.
I makes me evaluate my "service".
I either have to modify my service or realize that its not the right community for what I have to offer.

I guess you know what I mean, I struggle with language here...

I think you did very well in describing your mindset. I understand. Nothing is simple and all is unique. We must all follow our own paths and hearts. Smile

Agua · 04-19-2018, 01:45 PM,

(04-17-2018, 04:33 AM)peregrine Wrote: No argument, but the challenge can be that wisdom comes organized one way an love comes organized differently, and it's not so easy to balance these.

Love doesn't sway, but surrenders and gives itself freely, whereas wisdom steps back and takes in the larger view. Structurally speaking, it's hard to do both of those together in the same moment, no?

Seems I view one critical thing quite different here:

There is a lot of talk about wisdom here in this place.
And its quite often "equaled" in a way with the wisdom Ra speaks about, you know, the wisdom that is being developed in 5th density.

And in my opinion, I see an incredibly huge difference between what intellectual speculation brings forth and wisdom.
For me, these are two completely different things.

Taking into account that the wisdom in question is being developed AFTER 4th density, AFTER living for a very very long time with unconditional love, a fully open heart, might be a hint to what I mean!

Agua · 04-19-2018, 02:00 PM,

(04-17-2018, 06:38 AM)Louisabell Wrote: I might be controversial here, but aren't people just doing the same thing that they're accusing Agua of doing by judging his experience as unloving or not accepting? I believe it can be a tremendously loving action to open up about your frustrations and disappointments to a whole forum, afterall isn't love just truth in essence?

Thank you! I fully agree!
Love is first of all truth.
Being untrue to myself or about myself could maybe appear loving, but it would be only fake-loving!

(04-17-2018, 06:38 AM)Louisabell Wrote: I for one regret not being more responsive. I took value from your suggestions, Agua and I didn't really try to offer any value back. Perhaps I believed I had no value to offer. Not a useful belief.

I dont believe it would have no value what you have to offer!
You have unique experiences and a unique perspective!

And, you know, just a little "that was helpful" "I agree" "I could use it" is actually worth quite a lot.
Quite a few times, when I tried to point beyond the intellect, the reaction I got was just resistance, some relativating, dissecting, and mostly not even refering to the content of what I said.
Then these post get some likes additionaly, while no one actually refers to the content of what I said.
Not that its about likes or whatever.
But I guess its quite clear, that after this happens a few times, you come to the conclusion that you better stop sharing that useless s***…

That wasnt meant as criticism on your person!
More about the general thing…

Also, I do relate to what you are saying. I took my need to know very far and deconstructed my reality to the point that it started to turn on me, I experienced tremendous confusion and realised before I was truly ready that I basically didn't know anything for sure, anything. In this state the LOO could just as easily be my eternal liberation or alien brainwashing intended to induce psychosis. Who really knows? We are so vulnerable behind the veil, and I believe it is this vulnerability that is not being totally admitted to and explored here. Is this what you are saying?

Infinity is mind-blowing ecstasy, awe-inspiring and absolutely terrifying all in one, and that is still a foggy incomplete perception of it. I am reminded by certain trip reports where people who took psychedelics were taken way too far into the throws of infinity before they were ready and they experience the void - the place of thought where if you are everything, and all is one, does that also mean that you are totally alone for eternity, only using illusion to distract yourself of timeless isolation? Granted this is the danger of interfacing the ego with infinite realms, but still this experience has badly traumatised some foolhardy people.

(04-17-2018, 06:38 AM)Louisabell Wrote: It's really hard to not have any thought constructs to hold onto, just to have some context as you go hurling into the endless infinite waters of creation, even to be attached to non-attachment is a paradox.

That is a very important realization in my view.
That makes the "invisible fear" we have of going beyond the intellect much more tangible!

Then there is what is. Not quite as stimulating, but the only real thing here. Like really listening to what someone has to say. Or just a smile. So thank you, frank honesty is always a gift to me.
[/quote]

Thank you for your warm hearted response Smile

Agua · 04-19-2018, 02:01 PM,

(04-17-2018, 08:07 AM)Bring4th_Plenum Wrote: Thanks for all your efforts Agua.

I know you have a message to share

(04-16-2018, 07:32 AM)Agua Wrote: And finally: presence
The creator is absolute presence. The closer you are to the creator, the more present you are.
The whole creation is present, living in the present moment.
Except humans. At least thinking humans.
You cannot think yourself into the present moment, you can only think yourself out of the present moment.
But presence is the core of each deeper spiritual experience. I bet many of you agree here.
When you take away "presence" from a spiritual experience, it has no depth anymore.
When you think, you take away presence.
So by thinking, you take away what is needed to have a deeper spitritual experience and so make it impossible, and then you seriously expect to have usefull results from a non-present conceptualized seeking :/

There is some really deep truth here.

Some things just have to be experienced; before they can be comprehended.

Namaste.

Thank you, dear friend Smile

Agua · 04-19-2018, 02:13 PM,

(04-17-2018, 04:20 PM)johncarson698 Wrote: Ra did say that the purpose of space/time is to evolve, and one cannot evolve without reflecting. So if you never think, you never evolve... Thats not to say that you cant "not think" from time to time.

If you dont want to think and evolve, then thats noone's concern but your own.

I honestly believe there are some misconceptions:

You seem to equate being conscious with thinking.
And vice versa "not thinking" equals "unconscious"

Quite the opposite is true

Its not desirable to fall BELOW thinking, like if you´re totally drunk,
it´s about going BEYOND thinking, rising ABOVE the intellect.

I guess you did not make the experience of consciously experiencing presence yet.
If you do make this experience, it is like waking up, las if you had been sleeping your whole life.

"When all thought subsides and you fully into presence, you have access to an INFINITE GREATER intelligence…"
That´s a quote by Eckhart Tolle, since people like quotes Wink

(I recommend checking him out btw)

I dont want to convince you, this cannot be understood on an intellectual level anyway.
But you could practice is, make your own experience and judge by YOUR own experience!

And, it it were just hypothetically true, then this would mean, that you actually accelerate your evolution a whole lot if you use presence as a "tool", whereas you would slow down your evolution considerably by using your intellect as a "tool"