Hardest catalyst to understand
12-16-2019, 09:53 PM,
#31
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  I would say that the native Americans philosophy is very STO and about being one with nature.

Indigenous people generally live in (wise) harmony with the land and all life. But today, in this world, we do not need to consume animals for survival.

(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  I'd trust their application of the Law of One, over most westernized thinking, anyday.

Two things:

Are you saying that certain members here are Westernized in their thinking? I personally subscribe to no way of thinking. I do that for myself.

Existence evolves. The indigenous ways were good. Now we evolve to another level of existence which includes technology for one thing, mobility, information about how the physical body works.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  That being said...its just as presumptuous to assume things happen to us, that weren't agreed upon, pre-incarnation.

That is off my trajectory. What I said, or rather meant, was, that all we know for sure in any real sense is what is now, here, perceived in the best way we can perceive it. I leave the door open to what lies beyond this reality we are experiencing.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  Everything happens perfectly, as an experience of the creator knowing itself.
To say it isn't ethical...is to miss the point.
The creator doesn't give a f*** about what we do.

Not sure what you mean by "it."

And I agree that whatever the source of this existence is, and you can call it the creator, I'm pretty sure it's impartial. Not sure how that relates to ethics.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  Why do we feel the right to judge how it learns?
I mean the hive mind may have agreed before it came...that it would be food, in a barren area with little vegetation. There may be some kind of symbiotic relationship,  in which they are the food and are thus taken in as new 2D-3D family members.
They treat the animal with love and respect. That the animal dies...could be a blessing.

The above is conjecture may be true. But I can't know what an animal chooses. I only know what I choose, and it is my choice to be respectful of all life. And if I don't need to kill an animal for food, why would I? Even if I pray for it. Humanity has the resources to evolve to a place where, even if the animal kingdom had agreed to be food, it would no longer be necessary to be tortured and killed for food and that agreement could end and evolution of consciousness would move on.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  Some people are still born...do they not learn something?
The length of an incarnation means nothing.
The value of each experience is equal, when speaking in objective terms.

You can't compare animals to humans.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  So tell me...why would an animal need more time here? Like they are cutting their experience short.

That is not the point. The point is each life form should be able to be free, to live its life in its own way. To experience all that it can. That is why I don't like zoos, aquariums, circuses, and other human entertainment vehicles which enslave life forms for our amusement, and use the excuse that the animals, fish, etc. are safe and cared for. They are being denied the full expression of what they are.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  To me...it seems human centric to propose that we would even begin to understand this level of free will mechanics.
If it is, it is for a reason.
Perhaps in a perfect world...all would have what they need and no consumption of animals would occur.
But in that world...people wouldn't kill each other. That's seen as catalyst and part of learning...why can't the service of the deer to the hunter and hunter to deer, be viewed in the same light?

Because 2D animals do not have the same awareness as 3D humans. Humans are the bullies of the planet, wreaking havoc for the planet itself and all the other life forms—because they can. That isn't symbiotic, it's one-sided control. In that sense, I suppose it would be STS behavior..


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  You consume fruit and assume it's ok...why? Because you can't hear screams of pain?

Because fruit is designed TO be eaten, to propagate the plant. 
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12-16-2019, 10:44 PM,
#32
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-16-2019, 09:53 PM)Diana Wrote:  
(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  I would say that the native Americans philosophy is very STO and about being one with nature.

Indigenous people generally live in (wise) harmony with the land and all life. But today, in this world, we do not need to consume animals for survival.
So if you're living on ice...in the north pole as an Inuit. No plants. Would you eat fish?
Or africa where there is no vegetation...what else would you eat?


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  I'd trust their application of the Law of One, over most westernized thinking, anyday.

Two things:

Are you saying that certain members here are Westernized in their thinking? I personally subscribe to no way of thinking. I do that for myself.
No...I'm saying that their view of nature is based on their Oneness with it. I'd believe what they believe the animal wants...over a human centric ideology of what is right n wrong as far as their evolutionary progress is concerned.
Existence evolves. The indigenous ways were good. Now we evolve to another level of existence which includes technology for one thing, mobility, information about how the physical body works.

So there are no indigenous still living the old ways?
This is the deer laying down its life scenario. Are you saying that's not a viable option? Just because some of the world has adopted modern technology, which affords some the choice to eat meat or not, doesn't mean all humans are living in hospitable conditions for growing other 2D food sources.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  That being said...its just as presumptuous to assume things happen to us, that weren't agreed upon, pre-incarnation.

That is off my trajectory. What I said, or rather meant, was, that all we know for sure in any real sense is what is now, here, perceived in the best way we can perceive it. I leave the door open to what lies beyond this reality we are experiencing.

what I mean is...how can we prescribe to the notion of "all is perfectly happening as it should...all is one", whilst claiming the same isn't true for lower density experience?

(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  Everything happens perfectly, as an experience of the creator knowing itself.
To say it isn't ethical...is to miss the point.
The creator doesn't give a f*** about what we do.

Not sure what you mean by "it."

And I agree that whatever the source of this existence is, and you can call it the creator, I'm pretty sure it's impartial. Not sure how that relates to ethics.

anything is what I meant by 'it'.
To judge anything other than the creator knowing itself through interaction with itself, is out of line with the Law of One.
I'm saying that ethics are subjective.
If you don't eat meat and wouldn't kill to live...that's awesome.
They might see letting their children die of starvation as worse.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  Why do we feel the right to judge how it learns?
I mean the hive mind may have agreed before it came...that it would be food, in a barren area with little vegetation. There may be some kind of symbiotic relationship,  in which they are the food and are thus taken in as new 2D-3D family members.
They treat the animal with love and respect. That the animal dies...could be a blessing.

The above is conjecture may be true. But I can't know what an animal chooses. I only know what I choose, and it is my choice to be respectful of all life. And if I don't need to kill an animal for food, why would I? Even if I pray for it. Humanity has the resources to evolve to a place where, even if the animal kingdom had agreed to be food, it would no longer be necessary to be tortured and killed for food and that agreement could end and evolution of consciousness would move on.

how is it torture to take the life of a being who chooses it so? Especially if it is done quickly. If you don't want to eat meat and respect it, that's awesome.
Personally...I don't eat meat. I see it as unnecessary in this day n with the soy products available to ween me off my conditioned taste for meat. I find it ridiculous that we make soy taste like carcass, to find it more palatable.
I can understand those who do. Outside of the meat farming industry. That's just f***** up. But the people in the industry will learn lessons n have to deal with whatever choosing it entails, karmically.
I'm actually not pro eating meat. But understand some have no choice. For them...i can especially empathize and see it how I do...when cutting the lawn, or trimming a hedge.
I thank the tree for its service. I thank the lawn for the soft bed for my feet.
It isnt the same to some...but it is to me. Respect for all life and an understanding that we take what we need.
That others over fish or take too much, is irrelevant to the subject of someone living in harmony with all that is.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  Some people are still born...do they not learn something?
The length of an incarnation means nothing.
The value of each experience is equal, when speaking in objective terms.

You can't compare animals to humans.
oh...so they don't learn anything, regardless of the length of incarnation then?


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  So tell me...why would an animal need more time here? Like they are cutting their experience short.

That is not the point. The point is each life form should be able to be free, to live its life in its own way. To experience all that it can. That is why I don't like zoos, aquariums, circuses, and other human entertainment vehicles which enslave life forms for our amusement, and use the excuse that the animals, fish, etc. are safe and cared for. They are being denied the full expression of what they are.
so should we...but do we?
You think everyone wants to do what they do?
You think humans don't have the same experiences?
Have you heard of the sex slave trade?
How we live matters. What if the giving of their life, is the greatest form of love they can offer?
It's not black n white.



(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  To me...it seems human centric to propose that we would even begin to understand this level of free will mechanics.
If it is, it is for a reason.
Perhaps in a perfect world...all would have what they need and no consumption of animals would occur.
But in that world...people wouldn't kill each other. That's seen as catalyst and part of learning...why can't the service of the deer to the hunter and hunter to deer, be viewed in the same light?

Because 2D animals do not have the same awareness as 3D humans. Humans are the bullies of the planet, wreaking havoc for the planet itself and all the other life forms—because they can. That isn't symbiotic, it's one-sided control. In that sense, I suppose it would be STS behavior..
some are bullies. It hardly seems bully like, to accept an animal who lies down as a sacrifice.


(12-16-2019, 09:09 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  You consume fruit and assume it's ok...why? Because you can't hear screams of pain?

Because fruit is designed TO be eaten, to propagate the plant. 
so how does one become human, from 2D animal?
I'd propose death and reincarnation as 3D.
Now all you have is the question of what is a beneficial or fair death?
Well...that would be up to the individual evolution of each being.
So why do you feel they shouldn't die, as an offering of sustenance to another?
Keep in mind that this is under the context of having no other option as a food source.
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12-17-2019, 12:13 AM,
#33
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
@ Kaaron. I don't seem to be making myself clear with my posts replying to you. I may try again later. 
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12-17-2019, 12:38 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-17-2019, 12:38 AM by Kaaron.)
#34
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
I feel like we need to fully consider what hive mind implies.
Taking a few fish from a school, would be akin to removing parts of a tree.
They aren't individually conscious beings, choosing how they see the world.
If you kill one, the rest would continue their progress and evolution.
I feel like they would be harvested as a school and then incarnate in 3D as the essence of the totality of that schools experience.
Pets...are where individual consciousness would be learned.
Probably not a good idea to eat your pets.
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12-17-2019, 02:47 PM,
#35
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-16-2019, 11:58 AM)Loki Wrote:  I believe the mental pain resulted from the physical pain of someone we love is the hardest catalyst to process.
And if the entity that suffers is 3D that pain might make some sense in the big picture of spiritual evolution.
However I cannot comprehend suffering at 2D level and certainly the catalyst is really tough to process on my side.

Can someone explain to me why the 2D physical suffering is necessary considering the fact that there is no spiritual gain for the entity that suffers?  4D, 5D, 6D don't have to deal with physical suffering why isn't 2D spared of it?

What is the "positive" (talking about big picture) a 3D gets from a 2D physical suffering?  
How can I be positive about it knowing how useless that suffering is?

I've seen much confusion in the discussion so far and would like to offer my perspective. 

I thought Ra (but it could be mostly Q'uo) had made it clear that only the 3rd density is veiled, so 2D is not. So far in the discussion many seem to take that as there is no individual consciousness, but there is another way to look at it. To use an analogy, without the veil, everyone/thing know that life is just a game that the souls play. Imagine a favourite video game of yours (sorry if you are not a gamer), you play each time to gain progress in the game, to earn some type of reward in coins, stamina, loot, etc. You know you are going to fail the first time you try in some games, you repeat it until you are great -- that's part of the fun. Then you will want to try the game in a different character. The point is, when you fail the game -- got slain by an opponent, eaten by a beast, beaten to a pulp -- do you suffer pain as a player? Of course you will be upset when these happen, but you know this is all part of the game. Challenges in a game is part of the fun of the game. Consider the pain a player experienced when being stabbed in a game that cost him the game to that of actually being stabbed IRL, that's probably similar to the different scale in pain an animal experience than us. 

What's the purpose of 2D? It's the creator experiencing itself in so many different way, and offering service to the 3D being (if there is any). Seeing the suffering in 2D is a great catalyst for us to choose the path we want to take. We have so much power over the animals, how are we going to use it? 
Is it “bad”, or not STO to kill animals and eat their meat? Well, Q'uo said many things on “being and doing”, the gist is we under value “being” and over value “doing”. What's the state of being when one kills an animal and eat its meat? If one does this to feel the power, the control, the gratification to its own senses – we know it's STS. On the other hand, native Americans killed when they need to, give thanks to the animals, honor their spirit – definitely STO. We want to judge people by their actions, but it's not the action that counts, it's the “being”, the intentions and thoughts that count. But we cannot see people's intentions and thoughts – learn to let go judgment is an important step in the spiritual path.



Then the question is, if the 2D beings do not suffer, dose it justify anyone to abuse them? Of course not! 3D is the density of the choice. To me, one way to make the choice is to discover who we are, in the deepest sense. We need to choose to align with what we are. We are kind, we are compassionate, we care. We want to manifest that towards 2D beings, we do not need an exterior reason for that.  But if one believes animals don't suffer when being hurt, they will use it as an excuse to hurt and abuse animals... well, that's why STS value wisdom, they can be satisfied with logic and choose not to follow the heart. Animals are here offering opportunities for 3Ds to choose, they provide equal opportunities for both paths.
How is knowing 2D not suffer helpful to a 3D STO in his/her spiritual development? To me this is how it could: it could relieve us from the hatret of other 3D beings who has not choose to act compassionate towards 2D beings. When you see someone abusing an animal, how do you feel? Probably many of you feel your blood boiling, some may even wish the abuser suffer the same or worse fate than the abused... Without knowing the power of our thoughts, these type of thoughts probably have kept the abuse and suffering going...



When you can see all is one, and recognize this game of Life, you will want to give thanks to the abused for its role in the abuser's development; you will wish the abuser not wasting the opportunity to learn and able to act aligned with his/her true nature soon; you will not contributing the circle of separation by wishing harm on the abusers; you will wish all abuse to stop. But is seeing “all is well and beautiful” going to stop the abuses? Well, based on teachings about “being” and the power of thoughts, being the Creator does not necessarily need actions – this is something hard for us to believe, and i feel can only be grasped through experience.

-my 2c
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12-17-2019, 04:17 PM,
#36
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-17-2019, 02:47 PM)Learner Wrote:  
(12-16-2019, 11:58 AM)Loki Wrote:  I believe the mental pain resulted from the physical pain of someone we love is the hardest catalyst to process.
And if the entity that suffers is 3D that pain might make some sense in the big picture of spiritual evolution.
However I cannot comprehend suffering at 2D level and certainly the catalyst is really tough to process on my side.

Can someone explain to me why the 2D physical suffering is necessary considering the fact that there is no spiritual gain for the entity that suffers?  4D, 5D, 6D don't have to deal with physical suffering why isn't 2D spared of it?

What is the "positive" (talking about big picture) a 3D gets from a 2D physical suffering?  
How can I be positive about it knowing how useless that suffering is?

I've seen much confusion in the discussion so far and would like to offer my perspective. 

I thought Ra (but it could be mostly Q'uo) had made it clear that only the 3rd density is veiled, so 2D is not. So far in the discussion many seem to take that as there is no individual consciousness, but there is another way to look at it. To use an analogy, without the veil, everyone/thing know that life is just a game that the souls play. Imagine a favourite video game of yours (sorry if you are not a gamer), you play each time to gain progress in the game, to earn some type of reward in coins, stamina, loot, etc. You know you are going to fail the first time you try in some games, you repeat it until you are great -- that's part of the fun. Then you will want to try the game in a different character. The point is, when you fail the game -- got slain by an opponent, eaten by a beast, beaten to a pulp -- do you suffer pain as a player? Of course you will be upset when these happen, but you know this is all part of the game. Challenges in a game is part of the fun of the game. Consider the pain a player experienced when being stabbed in a game that cost him the game to that of actually being stabbed IRL, that's probably similar to the different scale in pain an animal experience than us. 

What's the purpose of 2D? It's the creator experiencing itself in so many different way, and offering service to the 3D being (if there is any). Seeing the suffering in 2D is a great catalyst for us to choose the path we want to take. We have so much power over the animals, how are we going to use it? 
Is it “bad”, or not STO to kill animals and eat their meat? Well, Q'uo said many things on “being and doing”, the gist is we under value “being” and over value “doing”. What's the state of being when one kills an animal and eat its meat? If one does this to feel the power, the control, the gratification to its own senses – we know it's STS. On the other hand, native Americans killed when they need to, give thanks to the animals, honor their spirit – definitely STO. We want to judge people by their actions, but it's not the action that counts, it's the “being”, the intentions and thoughts that count. But we cannot see people's intentions and thoughts – learn to let go judgment is an important step in the spiritual path.



Then the question is, if the 2D beings do not suffer, dose it justify anyone to abuse them? Of course not! 3D is the density of the choice. To me, one way to make the choice is to discover who we are, in the deepest sense. We need to choose to align with what we are. We are kind, we are compassionate, we care. We want to manifest that towards 2D beings, we do not need an exterior reason for that.  But if one believes animals don't suffer when being hurt, they will use it as an excuse to hurt and abuse animals... well, that's why STS value wisdom, they can be satisfied with logic and choose not to follow the heart. Animals are here offering opportunities for 3Ds to choose, they provide equal opportunities for both paths.
How is knowing 2D not suffer helpful to a 3D STO in his/her spiritual development? To me this is how it could: it could relieve us from the hatret of other 3D beings who has not choose to act compassionate towards 2D beings. When you see someone abusing an animal, how do you feel? Probably many of you feel your blood boiling, some may even wish the abuser suffer the same or worse fate than the abused... Without knowing the power of our thoughts, these type of thoughts probably have kept the abuse and suffering going...



When you can see all is one, and recognize this game of Life, you will want to give thanks to the abused for its role in the abuser's development; you will wish the abuser not wasting the opportunity to learn and able to act aligned with his/her true nature soon; you will not contributing the circle of separation by wishing harm on the abusers; you will wish all abuse to stop. But is seeing “all is well and beautiful” going to stop the abuses? Well, based on teachings about “being” and the power of thoughts, being the Creator does not necessarily need actions – this is something hard for us to believe, and i feel can only be grasped through experience.

-my 2c
It's all catalyst.
Quote:Ra: I am Ra. There are no mistakes.

A hunter takes power over the animal, do you believe the hunter is STS? Let's say he is not hungry and he is not native and one more thing, he is not even a he, he is a she. STS?
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12-17-2019, 06:36 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-17-2019, 06:46 PM by Loki.)
#37
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-17-2019, 04:17 PM)kristina Wrote:  A hunter takes power over the animal, do you believe the hunter is STS? Let's say he is not hungry and he is not native and one more thing, he is not even a he, he is a she. STS?

A human killer takes power over the other human do you believe is STS? Let's say he is not in danger and he is not military and one more thing he is not even a he. STS?

Same thing. Taking a life just for your own pleasure is STS.
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12-17-2019, 06:53 PM,
#38
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-17-2019, 06:36 PM)Loki Wrote:  
(12-17-2019, 04:17 PM)kristina Wrote:  A hunter takes power over the animal, do you believe the hunter is STS? Let's say he is not hungry and he is not native and one more thing, he is not even a he, he is a she. STS?

A human killer takes power over the other human do you believe is STS? Let's say he is not in danger and he is not military and one more thing he is not even a he. STS?

Same thing. Taking a life just for your own pleasure is STS.

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12-17-2019, 07:05 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-17-2019, 07:08 PM by Loki.)
#39
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-17-2019, 06:53 PM)Great Central Sun Wrote:  
(12-17-2019, 06:36 PM)Loki Wrote:  
(12-17-2019, 04:17 PM)kristina Wrote:  A hunter takes power over the animal, do you believe the hunter is STS? Let's say he is not hungry and he is not native and one more thing, he is not even a he, he is a she. STS?

A human killer takes power over the other human do you believe is STS? Let's say he is not in danger and he is not military and one more thing he is not even a he. STS?

Same thing. Taking a life just for your own pleasure is STS.

[Image: f93c76303736d0ace43ec0892996cb214c5a81cc...cca144.jpg]

Agreed I feel that if someone channeled Orion they would say they are STO because they know better what is good for others.
They force the universe to do what is good for the universe and not auto-destruct in freedom which is you might say anarchy.
I always say a crime you are not aware about is not a crime.
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12-17-2019, 07:28 PM,
#40
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-17-2019, 06:36 PM)Loki Wrote:  
(12-17-2019, 04:17 PM)kristina Wrote:  A hunter takes power over the animal, do you believe the hunter is STS? Let's say he is not hungry and he is not native and one more thing, he is not even a he, he is a she. STS?

A human killer takes power over the other human do you believe is STS? Let's say he is not in danger and he is not military and one more thing he is not even a he. STS?

Same thing. Taking a life just for your own pleasure is STS.
Not necessarily but we can go with what you are exploring. If someone is attacking and I take power over the other person. Am I STS?
One more option. A hunter hunts for sport and not because he is killing to watch the animal suffer or delights in the animal's suffering is he STS? A human has been severely abused and he then abuses another human, is he STS? I say this is all catalyst and nothing more. Due to an array of other things but not necessarily negative polarity. Not according to The Law of One.
And the he is a she thing was me being silly. I wasn't being a jerk. I thought it would be kind of fun to use a female instead of only assuming men do these things.
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12-17-2019, 07:54 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-17-2019, 09:18 PM by Loki.)
#41
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-17-2019, 07:28 PM)kristina Wrote:  
(12-17-2019, 06:36 PM)Loki Wrote:  
(12-17-2019, 04:17 PM)kristina Wrote:  A hunter takes power over the animal, do you believe the hunter is STS? Let's say he is not hungry and he is not native and one more thing, he is not even a he, he is a she. STS?

A human killer takes power over the other human do you believe is STS? Let's say he is not in danger and he is not military and one more thing he is not even a he. STS?

Same thing. Taking a life just for your own pleasure is STS.
Not necessarily but we can go with what you are exploring. If someone is attacking and I take power over the other person. Am I STS?
No you are not. But then depends what you do with that power over the other being. If you decide to punish him after you have power over him you are STS if you decide to show him understanding you are STO.

One more option. A hunter hunts for sport and not because he is killing to watch the animal suffer or delights in the animal's suffering is he STS?
A sport that causes one life to be taken is an STS sport IMO. There are may way to shoot for sport that do not cause meaningless harm.


A human has been severely abused and he then abuses another human, is he STS?

Yes he is. If you feel the need to inflict pain because someone else caused you pain is STS. I've seen this mentality in the army where all the previously abused humans were abusing other humans. This is at the end of the day the very definition of STS hierarchy.

I say this is all catalyst and nothing more.
I agree but it matters what you do with it. Catalyst does not excuse a certain reaction. In fact catalyst is intended to test your commitment towards a path.
The easiest way is to inflict pain to other when you suffer but this doesn't make it the right thing to do.


Due to an array of other things but not necessarily negative polarity.

Catalyst indeed does not have polarity but reaction to it does. Catalyst is intended to force you chose your path. Your reaction to it can polarize you one way or the other.
Not according to The Law of One.
And the he is a she thing was me being silly. I wasn't being a jerk. I thought it would be kind of fun to use a female instead of only assuming men do these things.
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12-18-2019, 12:01 PM,
#42
Photo  RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
I have decided that I've made myself clear here upon reread. There are also countless pages in other threads, including a compilation made by 4 of us on the subject (though I don't know where it is—it's hidden away somewhere on these forums), addressing the subject of how we treat and eat animals.



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12-18-2019, 10:28 PM,
#43
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-18-2019, 12:01 PM)Diana Wrote:  I have decided that I've made myself clear here upon reread. There are also countless pages in other threads, including a compilation made by 4 of us on the subject (though I don't know where it is—it's hidden away somewhere on these forums), addressing the subject of how we treat and eat animals.

You might be referring to this substantial thread:

https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=239

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12-18-2019, 11:42 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-18-2019, 11:43 PM by Kaaron.)
#44
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-18-2019, 12:01 PM)Diana Wrote:  I have decided that I've made myself clear here upon reread. There are also countless pages in other threads, including a compilation made by 4 of us on the subject (though I don't know where it is—it's hidden away somewhere on these forums), addressing the subject of how we treat and eat animals.



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I understand your point.
It's just that its beside the actual point.
Compassion is a trait found in animals too.
Like the compassion to give up ones life so another may continue living.
Whether the choice is made pre incarnation or in the moment...it is a choice made by the creator for the creator.
To add labels or judgement is a dualistic notion.
If a dog dies protecting his family of choice, by laying down its life...how is that any different to walking up to a human, laying down and being sustenance for a family?
How is it STS when the animal is the one choosing?
It feels like some wanna victimize animals and label humans the bad guy...like it isnt all part of the same lesson of learning together.
Its pretty self evident that the animal understands the arrangement, as does the hunter.
It is quite an interesting game though...sitting in a completely different set of circumstances, imagining to know the workings, between one creation and the next.
I'm pretty sure they'd be interested to look in on our daily workings for a while n laugh at the people who sit in their heads n have time to chase with clocks being the judge. Paper rectangles to chase with the amount collected, affording the feeling of security.
Spending all day imagining we're living, when in reality, we just wait for the other person to finish talking, so we may reassert our point of view.
I'd rather be the "STS hunter" trying to live as one with all that is, offering gratitude and love to all.
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12-19-2019, 12:45 AM,
#45
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-18-2019, 11:42 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  I understand your point.
It's just that its beside the actual point.

Good to know you know what's up. Apparently I'm too stupid to get it.

(12-18-2019, 11:42 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  Its pretty self evident that the animal understands the arrangement, as does the hunter.

You must be living in a different world than the one I'm in. How can you possibly know the animal understands the arrangement?
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12-19-2019, 01:56 AM,
#46
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-19-2019, 12:45 AM)Diana Wrote:  
(12-18-2019, 11:42 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  I understand your point.
It's just that its beside the actual point.

Good to know you know what's up. Apparently I'm too stupid to get it.
I don't think you're too stupid. It feels like you're arguing side points though, as a means of avoiding the issue.
It's not about killing for sport, pleasure or through lack of compassion.
It's about one aspect of the all, recognizing an area it can offer service and being selfless.
The other aspect of the all, then recognizes the great sacrifice and love from the other aspect. It honors the perfection of the eternal moment and is grateful to both the animal and creator.
Then the hunter continues on their path of ascension, feeling a sense of communion with all that is.


(12-18-2019, 11:42 PM)Kaaron Wrote:  Its pretty self evident that the animal understands the arrangement, as does the hunter.

You must be living in a different world than the one I'm in. How can you possibly know the animal understands the arrangement?
Why would it lie down, if it had no idea of the arrangement?
Seems that it would be quite aware of the contract, if it acted in accordance with it.
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12-19-2019, 10:37 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-19-2019, 07:19 PM by Loki.)
#47
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
Dedicated to my beloved cat, Corona:

I’ll come to you, from across the veil
Back to space/time, life seems so frail
I’ll stand by you just for a while
I’ll play a bit to see you smile
I’ll take your hand and we can go
You’ll touch my heart, I love you so
I feel your pain; I know your fear
Open your eyes, for I am here
To be with you, to walk you through
Just take my hand, for I love you
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12-19-2019, 11:43 AM,
#48
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
Beautiful poem Loki. It made me cry.
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01-26-2020, 11:46 PM,
#49
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-16-2019, 03:26 PM)Minyatur Wrote:  
(12-16-2019, 11:58 AM)Loki Wrote:  I believe the mental pain resulted from the physical pain of someone we love is the hardest catalyst to process.
And if the entity that suffers is 3D that pain might make some sense in the big picture of spiritual evolution.
However I cannot comprehend suffering at 2D level and certainly the catalyst is really tough to process on my side.

Can someone explain to me why the 2D physical suffering is necessary considering the fact that there is no spiritual gain for the entity that suffers?  4D, 5D, 6D don't have to deal with physical suffering why isn't 2D spared of it?

What is the "positive" (talking about big picture) a 3D gets from a 2D physical suffering?  
How can I be positive about it knowing how useless that suffering is?

I don't think there is all that much of a difference between 2D and 3D entities. I would even venture to say that pain in 3D relates a whole lot to how close we still are to 2D, we have it by extension. To find acceptance of pain in humans, I really tend to always bring it down to 2D and how it is a part of nature. Outside the human drama, there is a deer somewhere that broke its leg and died of a fever and that had nothing whatsoever to do with us as humans. So everything is not about us and to understand the way of things we have to move away from a view centered upon ourselves and our evolution.

Each density has its catalysts to propell evolution and pain in 2D should relate to be a catalyst for self-realization and moving toward 3D.

Beyond that, I believe the One seeks to experience itself in various and complex ways and for this I believe that in 2D a lot of biases are accumulated to create a unique path and journey. The reason why the highest service is merely the offering of the self is because what we are experiencing as the One experiencing the One is infinite opportunity. Tripping on a rock, meeting a predator, falling in love, etc, is infinite opportunity and meeting the Creator as the Creator. Each expression of the Creator, as a multidimensional entity, seeks to be a unique aspect of unity in its very being. So while a lot of things may seem unfair, they become understood at a later point of an entity's journey and everything is seen as bound in free will.

Right and Infinite opportunity often seems like the experience folds in on itself, and a reaction/catalytic propelling takes place. Often times the momentary un-understanding, and the later recognizing/understanding, is apart of the potential/reaction/catalytic mechanism/function. Almost nothing makes sense under the lense of many-ness, its only when we view The Creation as One, and Created/designed by One Unity, does clarity begin to form.

Its not that all is predestined, or pre-designed, its that You; The One accepts it all.
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01-27-2020, 05:04 PM, (This post was last modified: 01-27-2020, 05:05 PM by flofrog.)
#50
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(01-26-2020, 11:46 PM)Infinite Unity Wrote:  Almost nothing makes sense under the lense of many-ness, its only when we view The Creation as One, and Created/designed by One Unity, does clarity begin to form.



if that isn't the truth, Infinite Unity, Wink Heart
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02-24-2020, 08:40 PM,
#51
RE: Hardest catalyst to understand
(12-16-2019, 01:06 PM)Diana Wrote:  
(12-16-2019, 12:47 PM)Great Central Sun Wrote:  I disagree in that I think that suffering of 2D accelerates them towards 3D.
At least when the animal chooses to give its life.
I think that when a deer dies to feed a native american hunter, that can be a positive spiritual
benefit to the animal.

I don't believe it's positive for the 3D to hurt a 2D, so I can't say for sure.

I seriously doubt a deer would want to give its life to a hunter, Native American or not. That is the point, to me. No animal "wants" to die, as they are driven by an instinct for survival. A human might give his or her life for others, but it doesn't seem likely in the case of 2D animals. They have a strong instinct for survival, and, a nervous system that registers pain.

Because humanity wants (not needs) to consume animals at this point, why cause this suffering? Why wouldn't it be just okay for our 2D animal brothers and sisters to advance through love, not pain, suffering, and the death resulting from that? I sincerely doubt a cow would choose to live out its life in a factory farm. I have many deer friends, who have come to my property. Some of them, I can tell, have advanced awareness possibly from interaction with 3D entities. Would it be better that they advanced instead because a bow hunter shot them, they died suffering and in pain? Would a prayer over the deer make this into a transition of love? Certainly, it has more respect and reverence for life when indigenous peoples hunted this way. But it is no longer necessary in today's world to eat animals. So why not let them be, and let them find love not painful death.

It's written in the Law of One that we need to eat animals. As above so below. We are of course glorified chimps.

Your response doesn't seem to consider that the hunter and the hunted are one and the same. Also, yes there are many many trillions of creatures who have agreed to eat and be eaten. Earth and its creatures and their designs and functions being a constant refinement of choices by the logos.

Combine these concepts and there is a game to play that is much deeper than the virtues that you are clumsily projecting.

Incarnation is a choice that you've forgotten that you've made, this applies to your woodland creatures as well. This choice always ends in death. Death is frequently painful, animals need to eat each other. The correct response to this always is love. Also these experiences are partially pre-programmed, not to mention a total illusion.

Regarding eating animals: I just say thank you before I eat them.
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