More Positive but Less Harvestable
06-28-2011, 10:10 PM,
#31
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
I want to go back to the post that I believe seejay21 was originally responding to.

(06-28-2011, 11:44 AM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  I don't believe there is a place in 4D/positive for those who believe that killing and war-making is the best course of action in any situation, despite how "noble" the cause may be.

I believe this is to some extent incorrect in that fourth density does participate in defensive actions in the light war between negative and positive.

"The fourth density is the only density besides your own which, lacking the wisdom to refrain from battle, sees the necessity of the battle."

"The impulse to protect the loved other-self is one which persists through the fourth-density, a density abounding in compassion."

Getting back to Patton, it seems possible that he was fighting, as suggested earlier in the thread, in order to protect loved other-selves.
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06-28-2011, 10:38 PM,
#32
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
I think seejay's understandably upset by seeing people discussing who is STS or STO, or whether or not a UFO shut down a nuclear weapons plant, or whether or not communism or democracy would be more fit for a 4D society, and vented a little bit here. Seeing people get caught up in these transient discussions saddens me inside too, when I would rather see deeper discussion, like how to apply higher thought processes to everyday life, or the sharing of experiences as we balance our lower centers and open our upper ones, or discussion on new Q'uo channelings, etc.

But discussions that may appear to be transient might not be to those who are participating in them in a deeper way. See unity100's examples of using this information to form a wider universe-view, to work from in the future. Not to mention, like zenmaster said, there's differences in the definition of the word "judgement" among people. Discussion may not be what it appears to be right off the bat too. Some people participating in this thread may be trying to put the subject into a mental box, others gathering information, and others comparing themselves to the subject, or any other number of things!
"A mountain holds an echo deep inside. That's how I hold your voice."
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Tenet Nosce
06-28-2011, 10:58 PM,
#33
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
seejay21, could you take a moment to read this a few times? I don't care about defending anything I've said. There is something heated in you, and I'd like to "see your hand of cards", to help you balance it.

(06-28-2011, 08:38 PM)zenmaster Wrote:  The word 'judgement' has different connotations for different people. I typically use it to refer to a rational evaluation that Jung indicated as the functions of psyche's thinking and feeling faculties. Judgements are what create experiential knowledge or a 'rational worldview'. It's a tool for polarization. The archetypal principle behind it is the 'experience of mind', or Tarot emperor card.

Other people may feel that judgement suggests non-acceptance. But I believe that would only be the case if one somehow blindly identified with their current opinions to the exclusion of acceptance (i.e. 'close-mindedness'). If you know that your 'weltanschauung' ['view of life'] is necessarily, inherently limited, and have the presence of honesty to put new learning before past learning, then you have a powerful tool for polarization - as Ra suggests.

To the extent a person does not develop worldview, they are subject to the determination of others that will do so. Progress continues regardless of self-imposed limitations, as the ones that bother to use their discernment simply become the 'logos' for those that do not.
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06-28-2011, 11:51 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-29-2011, 10:47 AM by Tenet Nosce.)
#34
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
Firstly:

Tenet Nosce Wrote:I don't believe there is a place in 4D/positive for those who believe that killing and war-making is the best course of action in any situation, despite how "noble" the cause may be.

If it was my quote that set seejay21 off then it would have been preferable to address a response directly to me, so that everybody else doesn't have to go off on tangents.

Secondly:

βαθμιαίος Wrote:"The fourth density is the only density besides your own which, lacking the wisdom to refrain from battle, sees the necessity of the battle."

"The impulse to protect the loved other-self is one which persists through the fourth-density, a density abounding in compassion."

These are good quotes which bear relevance to the discussion. Though I wonder what Ra means here by the "battle". Does this mean that physical wars consisting of people slaughtering each other on the battlefield persists through 4D? Or does the battle take a different form in 4D?

Thirdly:

seejay21 Wrote:If Hitler, by some miracle, is able to forgive his father, and himself, to know, to accept, to forgive, to balance, and to open the self in love, EVEN IN THE LAST SECOND OF THE LAST HOUR, he'd be free to move onto 4d postive harvest, NO PROBLEM.

Yes, according to my understanding, this statement is correct. I just don't see how it is incongruent with my post. If even in the last second of the last hour, Patton "saw the light" then he can graduate along with everybody else.

Still: I don't believe there is a place in 4D/positive for those who are proponents of killing and war-making as a solution to conflict.

Forget about Patton. Look all I know about the guy is what history has told me. I do know that he died suddenly in a car accident exactly six months after the famous Los Angeles parade. Did he come around by then? I don't know. Did he come around in the afterlife? I don't know.

Maybe the next incarnation of Patton is right here, right now, in this forum. Seeing as he was a General in the United States Army, I am sure he can take a little criticism, and doesn't require any defense.

I actually couldn't care less about labeling Patton STO or STS. Patton just happens to be referenced in the material, and so I continued to use the example that was given to discuss what the heck Ra meant.

So, with all due apologies and respect to seejay21, I do feel there is some shadow projection going on here.

What I absolutely DID NOT say or believe, is that anybody who ever participated in a war or killed another human being cannot be harvested. In that respect, I do apologize if my words were unclear.

What I DO believe is that when the cosmic clock strikes midnight, whomever STILL BELIEVES in their heart of hearts that war, killing, murder, torture, and all other forms of causing deliberate pain to another human being is an appropriate way to go about life will get another chance to use that catalyst again when they repeat 3D.

They are not going to 4D this time around. If somebody thinks that is judgmental, then they can take that up with the Creator. Making this statement does not mean that I think I am better than anybody else, or that 4D is better than 3D. I am just expressing my belief based upon my understanding of the material.

Now, anybody is more than welcome to offer their opinion on what I said. If somebody can make the case for why I am mistaken I am all ears. But please do not put words in my mouth or accuse me of being judgmental from up upon a high horse. I am just trying to contribute to a discussion here.

Since we are on the topic, let me take this opportunity to express how I really feel.

I admittedly don't have too much of a bleeding heart for people who participate in war. And I certainly don't buy into the idea that there is no other way to resolve our differences. When somebody goes to war, they know exactly what they are signing up for: War. War jacks people up, it jacks families up, and it jacks the world up. It has always been this way. So it's not like anybody is expecting a home-cooked meal and gets handed a raw fish. If somebody goes off to war thinking that it is going to be a glorious experience... well... all I can say is I'm sorry. And I, myself, do not feel that it is necessary for me to participate in war in order to reap the wisdom as there are many who have come before me that have already done that. I can learn just as well from their experiences.

Does war make for great catalyst? Absolutely. I can only hope something good comes out of 5000 years of near incessant killing of human beings by each other here on planet Earth. Because God knows, it has not once resulted in any sort of lasting peace.

This world has been held hostage by war mongers for far too long. Personally, I am sick and tired of the way that humanity has become conditioned to accept war as a normal part of every day reality.

We've got a War on Terror, a War on Drugs, a War on Cancer. Fight. Fight. Fight. Kill. Kill. Kill. OK now everybody wave a flag and cheer! And then even here in the "Land of the Free" people are made to feel guilty for speaking out against war because of all the people who died for our freedom. So does this mean we just keep warring with each other from now unto eternity? Shall we spread our warlike attitudes to the far reaches of the galaxy in pride and conquest because war is who we are? Since when did peace become unpatriotic?

I am 100% over it. Y'all can have your wars. I would prefer to continue my spiritual growth in an environment that is free of war. And I am pretty confident that the VAST MAJORITY of human beings agree. So if that pisses somebody off, well so be it. Please forgive my lack of compassion for the war-mongers of the world. I will be the first to admit that I have some learning yet to do on the compassion front.

Seejay21, I don't even know if you were referring to my post with your own. Either way, if you or somebody you love has found a way to use war as a catalyst for positive growth, then I honor and commend you for your commitment and bravery.

Actually, I think there is a very good Q'uo session that features just this kind of story. I will try to find it.

But for those who are still stuck in their warring ways, time is short and frankly I don't think I will miss them one bit. Luckily, in the end there is no judgment or condemnation. Only a very big missed opportunity.
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
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Monica
06-29-2011, 12:05 AM,
#35
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(06-28-2011, 11:51 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  I would prefer to continue my spiritual growth in an environment that is free of war.
Regardless of our day-dreamy preferences, if one lacks the 'wisdom to refrain from battle' then existence necessarily involves war. And before wisdom, understanding must be developed - about 30 million years of study.
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06-29-2011, 12:24 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-29-2011, 03:57 AM by Tenet Nosce.)
#36
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
Here it is:

http://llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/2009/2009_1020.aspx

Jim Wrote:M writes, “I was a Navy Seal for 24 years and now have been working as a security contractor for the last six years in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other hot spots throughout the world. I had an experience where I had the overwhelming sensation to send out the thought of love while in a situation where I intuitively knew my group was going to be attacked by rocket. The attack was thwarted. After that moment, over the next several years, I began to use the thought energy of love in order to thwart many more attacks and keep the groups I was protecting safe. My question is, how can the information about using the thought energy of love be shared with others so that they can contribute to changing the paradigm of war?”

Q'uo Wrote:The first thing that we would share with you is the awareness that there is a substantial distance between the paradigm of a warrior or protector that is enjoyed by those within your armed forces and the paradigm which has become crystal clear to you. The concept of both the entities who are on what they would call “our side” and those on the “other side” as being equally valuable, is perhaps at the center of the distance between the two paradigms.

Q'uo Wrote:Those who do not awaken to the power of love and begin to desire to serve the infinite One during the present cycle, which now draws to its close, shall take flesh once again upon another third-density planet and experience another great cycle of learning in third density.
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Monica
06-29-2011, 01:29 AM,
#37
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
We live here in the "here and now". Whatever a 6d or a 5d or a 4d being is suppose to do has nothing at all to do with where we are in the here and now. I'm not going to call out the posts or other statements that have been made in this thread. I decided before I ever posted that I would address it in the macro and not the micro.

The subject is seemingly micro though. "what about Patton?" What does it mean what Ra said about Patton? The question Don asks, in itself, is not a Divine question. It is a question that comes from behind the veil, our 3d illusion, and forgive me please, but it is also a naive, and the answer that Ra gives suites, basically an answer for a child to ponder. A childish question. A childish answer. I sometimes wonder if Ra is still stuck in his naive mistake himself. Answering the questions asked, knowing that the answers will be distorted, on purpose, to create catalyst. He never lies. He leaves it up to us to figure out.

Here we are though. To dicern, to "judge" the meaning of his "words". It is amazaing that there are no "words" for the questions that are asked, but Ra offers them nonetheless!

As far as Patton, in the micro, God bless him for being loyal to his 3d reality. Not many have the gumpsion to be purely true to the illusion as we all agreed to do. We wouldn't be here otherwise without the agreement we made. Don't make the mistake that he is distorted with "war mongering". He was true to his mission, and the will of his 3d brothers, even though it sucks, and to his own detriment.

War is an amazing catalyst. Ra says so himself. To assume that all who participate are evil doers is naive self indulgance. For most, War finds them, and not the other way around. People in the world do participate, and for the most part, anyone that hasnt had to make those hard choices should consider themselves lucky, and not judgemental of the ones that dare to choose to protect. I'm happy to report that I know personally many innocent women and children that are truely thankful for my commitment to them. Their persicuters, not so much.

What is my beef about it? There is nothing to prepare you for the reality of war, of killing other selves. Who new? The evil and wicked ones? Send them off to dream with Hitler, or let them destroy the world and suck us all down in 3d negative enslavement. Turning a blind eye because it leaves a sour taste in your mouth is selfish.
Tenet, being who you are, where you've been, was your question inline with the answer you were looking for?
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06-29-2011, 01:48 AM,
#38
Wink  RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(06-29-2011, 12:05 AM)zenmaster Wrote:  Regardless of our day-dreamy preferences, if one lacks the 'wisdom to refrain from battle' then existence necessarily involves war. And before wisdom, understanding must be developed - about 30 million years of study.

I would be interested to know your conception of how war is conducted in 4D. With the understanding that it would be pure speculation, of course.
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06-29-2011, 03:33 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-17-2011, 01:40 AM by Tenet Nosce.)
#39
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  The subject is seemingly micro though. "what about Patton?" What does it mean what Ra said about Patton? The question Don asks, in itself, is not a Divine question. It is a question that comes from behind the veil, our 3d illusion, and forgive me please, but it is also a naive, and the answer that Ra gives suites, basically an answer for a child to ponder. A childish question. A childish answer. I sometimes wonder if Ra is still stuck in his naive mistake himself. Answering the questions asked, knowing that the answers will be distorted, on purpose, to create catalyst. He never lies. He leaves it up to us to figure out.

These are all very good and intriguing observations. How the quality of the question affects the quality of the answer, and even the quality of some people's discussion about it on the Internet 30 years later. This deserves it's own thread!

seejay21 Wrote:We live here in the "here and now". Whatever a 6d or a 5d or a 4d being is suppose to do has nothing at all to do with where we are in the here and now.

I get your gist, but aren't the 6D, 5D, 4D beings also in the here and now? Also this discussion is taken in the context of what the criteria are necessary to graduate from 3D to 4D.

seejay21 Wrote:As far as Patton, in the micro, God bless him for being loyal to his 3d reality. Not many have the gumpsion to be purely true to the illusion as we all agreed to do. We wouldn't be here otherwise without the agreement we made. Don't make the mistake that he is distorted with "war mongering". He was true to his mission, and the will of his 3d brothers, even though it sucks, and to his own detriment.

By this point, I regret poor Patton being a part of this discussion at all. As I said, it was the example given in the material. The question got raised as to what could have held Patton back. I offered an explanation. I am really not attached to my explanation, though an alternative has not been offered.

I don't really have any idea what was going on in Patton's inner world. So it is really pointless to speculate. All I was trying to get at is that I don't believe the mentality which says, "I don't agree with what you are doing, so I am going to kill you." is consistent with what I conceive to be the values of a 4D/positive society. I'm not really sure why that would create such an uproar in the first place.

seejay21 Wrote:To assume that all who participate are evil doers is naive self indulgance. For most, War finds them, and not the other way around.

I will admit I did not have those people in the forefront of my mind when I made those comments. But I didn't say that all people who participate in war are evil doers. I only said that my heart doesn't bleed too much for them.

Look, you can package it up however you want, but in the end war comes down to the fundamental idea that "I need to kill you in order to get what I want/need from life." That is inclusive of the want/need being safety or protection from others.

All I am saying is that particular mentality belongs here in 3D, behind the veil. Along with the idea that in order for me to have something I want, somebody else has to have what they want taken away. Now that's naivete 101 in my schoolbook.

I didn't say it was wrong, or evil, just not compatible with 4D/positive. Killing as a means to an end seems to me to be more of a 4D/negative value. Obviously, both views exist here in 3D.

If you would like to offer a scenario where people are killing each other in a 4D/positive world, by all means share. Cause my mind just doesn't seem to be able to wrap itself around the idea.

seejay21 Wrote:I'm happy to report that I know personally many innocent women and children that are truely thankful for my commitment to them. Their persicuters, not so much.

Well I don't doubt that one bit. Nor do I think you are evil for having been there. I want to be very clear about that.

seejay21 Wrote:There is nothing to prepare you for the reality of war, of killing other selves. Who new?

Who knew? Well just about everybody that has ever gone to war. That's who. Our ancestors, our parents, our children, our brothers and sisters. You can hardly look around this place for more than a few minutes without being reminded about the travesty of war.

I haven't come across a book yet where somebody is talking about how happy and joyful they are about killing other human beings. Nor have I met a veteran of any war who expresses happiness and joy for having participated. Everybody I have talked to found war to be a very deeply troubling experience that came with many negative consequences.

That some people have managed to take such experiences and distill them into anything positive whatsoever is a testament to the tenacity of their soul, and near miraculous in my opinion.

When I talk about war mongers I am not referring to kids who enlist in the armed forces hoping to make a difference in the world. I am talking about grown men who plot and plan war as a business venture, or to further their career, or to simply stroke their own egos. It may be hard for some to accept, but those people are out there. There are people who think making war is a funny game. They look at all the people killing each other and laugh. The reason that they have been able to continue doing what they are doing is because they have become exceedingly effective at convincing other people that war is an inevitability. A foregone conclusion in the history of men.

The truth is that war is a deeply sorrowful thing, and humanity has known this for as long as we have been here. The first known account of war is the Mahabharata which is as old as civilization itself. Ironically, the first blood was shed on the very same land which is now the disputed border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. But I digress.

Quote:Tenet, being who you are, where you've been, was your question inline with the answer you were looking for?

Which question? I thought I was making a statement! I will tentatively say no. lol

So being who you are, where you've been, is war something you would bring to 4D with you if given the choice?
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06-29-2011, 07:19 AM,
#40
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(06-29-2011, 01:48 AM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  I would be interested to know your conception of how war is conducted in 4D. With the understanding that it would be pure speculation, of course.

Don asked a few questions about this. Here is the first:

Quote:25.5 Questioner: You spoke of an Orion Confederation and of a battle being fought between the Confederation and the Orion Confederation. Is it possible to convey any concept of how this battle is fought?

Ra: I am Ra. Picture, if you will, your mind. Picture it then in total unity with all other minds of your society. You are then single-minded and that which is a weak electrical charge in your physical illusion is now an enormously powerful machine whereby thoughts may be projected as things.

In this endeavor the Orion group charges or attacks the Confederation armed with light. The result, a stand-off, as you would call it, both energies being somewhat depleted by this and needing to regroup; the negative depleted through failure to manipulate, the positive depleted through failure to accept that which is given.

There were several follow-up questions. The quote and the follow-ups can be found here: http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?session_id=25&ss=1#5
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06-29-2011, 09:03 AM,
#41
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  What is my beef about it? There is nothing to prepare you for the reality of war, of killing other selves. Who new? The evil and wicked ones? Send them off to dream with Hitler, or let them destroy the world and suck us all down in 3d negative enslavement. Turning a blind eye because it leaves a sour taste in your mouth is selfish.
Tenet, being who you are, where you've been, was your question inline with the answer you were looking for?

We are getting closer to the issue here. This sounds like justification to defend an undesired judgement. What are the possible verdicts? Are the options STS and STO polarization? The self is the only judge and jury.

Patton, in all his fighting, and in all his life experiences of course, polarized overall more positive. So, you are correct in your justification that no one can know another's polarizing direction.

But you, personally, would like to defend yourself against being defined STS? Is that what you don't like? This would be understandable.

There is also an act of judging a particular path to be "wrong", and this judgement can act to create separation between selfs.
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06-29-2011, 09:21 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-29-2011, 09:38 AM by unity100.)
#42
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(06-28-2011, 09:09 PM)seejay21 Wrote:  I remember, but you are right in that I've forgotten most things. There is much more to the LOO than the questions asked too.

I don't understand that you don't understand my understanding? See the Creator? Have you heard any fishsticks jokes? Do you like fishsticks? Tongue JK Seems like that is the kind of disconnect you and I are having on this point.

excuse me, but your 'understanding' here, redefines or obscures what positive/negative is.

when adolf hitler, somehow, is NOT sts, despite he has been defined and given as an example of being sts (creating an elite and making others serve that elite), then what will the definition of sts will be ?

then, killing others in a war wont be a sts act. enslaving others, will end up to be an act that may not be sts.

'there is much more in loo than asked questions' -> quite. it defines creation, it defines the way it works, it defines the way to walk in that creation.

and you are basically, for some reason, arguing in order to muddle/obscure the information given in regard to those paths. most of the information given in ra material explain positive, negative, and how to choose one, polarize in one, progress in one. you dont even remember that.

(06-28-2011, 09:26 PM)111 Wrote:  Its easy to blast someones statements by saying "You don't know what your talking about" or "You don't understand fully what you post" and to try everything you can to keep "your" personall truths intact in your mind. The real challenge in unity is to disregard what "you" know and try accepting others words as a diffrent perspective of the same truth. That we are all one. Like my mama always said, If you don't have something nice ta say, don't say anything at all. I think we all can do better at this Smile P.S. This bugs me this happens in forums meant for L/L I think seejay had some pretty good points and is far more than entitled to them. Thanks for you contribution buddy Big Grin

there is nothing personal about it - majority of the ra material is about positive, negative, and knowing these from each other and polarizing in order to progress through 3d harvest, and further. up until 6d. even at that point, the knowledge and understanding of positive and negative is a necessity, in order to be able to balance these two facets. we are openly given definitions of what constitutes sts, what constitutes sto, what constitutes balanced, and examples on that.

and in that, adolf hitler, was given as an example of a sts polarized entity, and WITH detail too.

if, someone comes up and claims that, despite all that, adolf hitler is not told to be a sts entity (despite he was openly told to be) then it means the person either

a) hasnt read
b) doesnt remember
c) didnt pay attention

there is no other explanation to that. it is not some 'personal interpretation'. sts is defined, then, adolf hitler was defined with the definition of sts.

i dont even know why we are discussing about this. it defies wisdom.

(06-28-2011, 10:38 PM)Bring4th_Aaron Wrote:  I think seejay's understandably upset by seeing people discussing who is STS or STO, or whether or not a UFO shut down a nuclear weapons plant, or whether or not communism or democracy would be more fit for a 4D society, and vented a little bit here. Seeing people get caught up in these transient discussions saddens me inside too, when I would rather see deeper discussion, like how to apply higher thought processes to everyday life, or the sharing of experiences as we balance our lower centers and open our upper ones, or discussion on new Q'uo channelings, etc.

But discussions that may appear to be transient might not be to those who are participating in them in a deeper way. See unity100's examples of using this information to form a wider universe-view, to work from in the future. Not to mention, like zenmaster said, there's differences in the definition of the word "judgement" among people. Discussion may not be what it appears to be right off the bat too. Some people participating in this thread may be trying to put the subject into a mental box, others gathering information, and others comparing themselves to the subject, or any other number of things!

understanding and definition of sts/sto, is not something that is particular to those who are interested in deep information. that information is not even deep at all, in actuality.

sts/sto is something that concerns this harvest, and a few densities after this density. it is actually the subject matter of many on this planet. 3d entities, have to KNOW sts and sto acts, and have to choose in between them, and polarize in a certain direction. even if they do not consciously understand, they have to subconsciously know these acts from another, and polarize.

this is not something 'transient'. it is there, in the practical life everyone is living, every day, every hour, every moment, in interactions in between people. it is what is happening, here and now. feigning willful ignorance of it by saying 'everything is one' or 'but how can you even know' and leaving the matter to obscurity will not bring any kind of spiritual progress, bar the progress with the knowledge of NOT doing as such.

i dont know why i am even having to express this. that is the subject of a good majority of the material we are interested in - and in no obscure terms too.

.............

a long time ago, while discussing issues of political correctness, people's perspectives, 'all perspectives being valid and true', and whatnot, i told someone,

'what will you do when someone comes and redefines positive and negative, and makes positive not positive, and negative not negative ?'

and it happened just yesterday.
let me tell you what i see as happening here :

seejay has a relative or a close one who is in the army, or who is in some situation that may not be compatible with positive polarization, or, apparently not apparently positively polarized, and he is willing to go to the lengths of refusing the very definitions and examples given for positive/negative for it. even the denial of very definitions of positive, negative themselves. he may be the one in that situation too, maybe he is in the army or something.

thats not something uncommon or unnatural. many of us have relatives or close ones who we would want to see 'saved'. or get harvested.

tho as humane a desire it may be, it is not something that is wise :

neither the definitions of positive/negative will change with that desire, or, anyone who couldnt qualify for harvest, will qualify for it.

but furthermore, a soul which is wanting/needing to live certain experiences in 3d, has incomplete lessons to take, can not, and actually should not pass to 4d either. leaving aside that it wont happen, even if happened, the entity would have to revisit those lessons LATER, when it would be very hard on the entity to do that by returning from higher densities.

every soul has a development path, and every soul WILL pass through the densities and experiences and arrive at their destination. that does not mean every soul has to walk together for entire route from start to bottom.

you part ways with some at some point, maybe merge paths with them later, maybe never until the end.

the catch is, every soul has something that they WANT and NEED to experience in the path they are following - even if that means 'not succeeding' in getting harvested, this harvest. it means there is some experience that soul WANTS and needs to experience in 3d, and if it cant do it in this setting, it will do it in another 3d experience.
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06-29-2011, 10:56 AM,
#43
Lightbulb  RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(06-29-2011, 07:19 AM)βαθμιαίος Wrote:  There were several follow-up questions. The quote and the follow-ups can be found here: http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?session_id=25&ss=1#5

Thanks for the references. So, in a nutshell, 4D wars are fought with light and thought, not bullets and bombs.

Ra has spoken! lol I don't see how this could be interpreted any other way, but I am sure somebody, somewhere will come up with their own personal theory. Wink
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06-29-2011, 11:23 AM,
#44
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
i think it was 5d wars that were being fought with light and thought.
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Tenet Nosce
06-29-2011, 11:56 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-29-2011, 04:34 PM by Tenet Nosce.)
#45
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
***NOTE*** My use of the word "you" in this post is not referring to anybody in particular, so please don't take it personally.

3DMonkey Wrote:We are getting closer to the issue here. This sounds like justification to defend an undesired judgement. What are the possible verdicts? Are the options STS and STO polarization? The self is the only judge and jury.

unity100 Wrote:seejay has a relative or a close one who is in the army, or who is in some situation that may not be compatible with positive polarization, or, apparently not apparently positively polarized, and he is willing to go to the lengths of refusing the very definitions and examples given for positive/negative for it. even the denial of very definitions of positive, negative themselves. he may be the one in that situation too, maybe he is in the army or something.

I am not going to speculate on the details of seejay21's life- however I do think that this is getting closer to the issue.

Those who make war (i.e. the war-mongers) have done exceptionally well at spreading confusion, lies, and deceit regarding its true nature.

First and foremost, they manage to convince people that the war and the warriors are the same thing. So whenever somebody dares to criticize the war (whichever name they happen to give it at the time) all the military people get all butt-hurt over it and feel like they are personally being attacked. I am not attacking PFC JoeBob for joining the military. I am calling out the cowards at the top of the military food chain who are OK with sending PFC JoeBob out to do their dirty work for them. And I am definitely calling out all the "fine" Americans who have businesses that directly profit from war and think it's just dandy to live in a ten million dollar house, drive a fifty thousand dollar vehicle, and send their own kids off to fancy ivy league colleges, while somebody else's kid gets paid a PITTANCE, may not make it home alive, and even if they do it may be to a broken family and with permanent psychological and physical damage.

Military training does a great job of brainwashing people into perceiving the entire world through the filter of attacker/defender. See, it is very hard to try to get somebody to go out and attack another human being. It is much easier to convince them that somebody is out there trying to attack them, and they are simply defending themselves. Presto-change-o!

unity100 Wrote:what will you do when someone comes and redefines positive and negative, and makes positive not positive, and negative not negative
Join the military, I guess. Big Grin

"We're gonna fight 'em over there so we don't have to fight them here." Really? Cause I don't see any boats filled with the Taliban making their way across the ocean to attempt a military takeover of America. Just because somebody chooses to perceive something as a threat does not make it so. Hell, why doesn't the military just bust into my bedroom and shoot up my closets looking to take out the bogeyman? "Sorry about your closet, sir, you will thank us one day!"

The next very effective tactic is to censor the actual KILLING aspect of the war, and instead focus on the end result, whether it is (supposedly) peace, democracy, or whatever. Oh that's right, Americans shouldn't see those images because images of war are too "troubling". But we are more than happy to send your son or daughter off to experience it first-hand. Ummmmmmmmmm... yea THAT makes sense. Sit here on your couch and watch American Idol while your son or daughter gets shot up in Afghanistan. We wouldn't want you to feel troubled over it. Oh and by the way, it turns out that bin Laden wasn't in Afghanistan, he was in Pakistan! OOOOPPPS! I knew it was one of those "-stans"! Sorry about putting everybody in harm's way for nothing. Anyhoo can't stay and chat we gotta get over to Libya. Lots of great oil interests... ahem I mean innocent people... over there for us to protect.

Then, the master propagandists set out on using "national pride" and "national identity" to effectively DEHUMANIZE others who live in "enemy" territory. What is that? Our own people are protesting against our military tactics? No problem, we will just create a new legal term "enemy combatant" and use that to justify torture and killing of other human beings. See? They are not a flesh-and-blood person... they are an enemy combatant! Now we can torture and kill them with impunity. Well gee, isn't that clever?

Does anybody ever stop to think that the person they are about to KILL is maybe some poor, lost, scared soul that was lied to, taken advantage of and given a weapon? Didja look a man in the eyes before you took his life? Or were you sitting in your armored vehicle, looking at your "target" on a computer screen made to look suspiciously like Call of Duty? I got 10 frags today! Look there is my name up on the leaderboard! Hoooo-weeee let's kill us some more!

Sure, so we protected some innocent women and children... by KILLING the aggressors. And who exactly gets to decide about who deserves protection and who deserves death anyway? Did the people take a vote? If so, I missed it. Why do the Afghanis get military protection, while the Sudanese are left to fend for themselves. Hmmm? Gee I don't know. Could it have something to do with oil profits?

You know what? The Mujahideen have families too. They have moms and dads and brothers and sisters and children too. And despite the fact that they might be horribly misled, misguided, and dangerous, I'm sure that their friends and family are quite devastated when one of them gets their head blown off at the hands of some stranger. This is exactly what perpetuates the cycle of war.

AND THEN. If you happen to get far enough along in the argument out comes the trump card. "Well you weren't there so what do you know about it?" Oh wait, you are right. I don't get to weigh in on the issue because I wasn't there! Makes perfect sense. Well then let's just give everybody a weapon and start shooting each other so that way we can all have our say. Why not just hand out guns on the playground and tell our children that shooting each other is a great way to resolve their differences? No, no, that won't work. We will wait until they are at the ripe, wise age of 18, then we will hand them weapons and ship them off on their merry way.

Crap, the trump card failed? OK then I am just going to call everybody who wants peace NAIVE. Peaceniks. Dirty hippies. World peace *scoff* not in my lifetime! Those peace-loving hippies should THANK me for killing others to defend them. Well as much as I would like to stay here with all you treehuggers, I got me some DEMOCRACY to spread.

God it is such a mind&^(k! Am I really here on Bring4th.org arguing about whether or not KILLING OTHER HUMAN BEINGS is a fourth density value?

No. No. You're right. War is the answer. Eventually, if we just "stay the course" killing others will result in peace. And I am an ignorant sleeping fool. Yeah, whatever, wake me up when the last bullet flies. I will be napping on a beach somewhere trying to soak up the last rays of sunshine before we blow the planet to smithereens.
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06-29-2011, 11:57 AM,
#46
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
It could be that war in 4D positive has enemies accepting death at the hand of another in mutual acceptance as the necessary cards to play at that moment knowing that live continues on.

O wait. That's not war. That's just acceptance. Acceptance can't facilitate war. Militia talk will be snuffed out by 4D negatives and the 4D positives accept your departure to the sts complex.

Here's how 4D positives do battle. "I love you. I accept you. I love you. I accept you" they order a retreat when they start thinking "i find it difficult to accept you. RETREAT"
That was a lighthearted post of mine.
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Tenet Nosce
06-29-2011, 01:46 PM,
#47
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
I think session 25 is pretty clear in how the war is fought. Negative 4D attacks with thought-forms and 4D positive defends with an armor of light.

It is important to recognize that 4D positive isn't attacking others, they are only being defensive.
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Tenet Nosce
06-30-2011, 09:13 AM,
#48
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
i dunno if i was evil i'd accept death as a means of escape, you get reborn anyway, then i'd reincarnate and take those bastards! and i'd be ruler of all lands and i'd have vast armies.
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Tenet Nosce
07-04-2011, 04:38 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-04-2011, 12:33 PM by Monica.)
#49
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(06-28-2011, 05:43 PM)seejay21 Wrote:  Where does it say in the LOO "knowledge base" say that we should insashibly judge others. The word "Judgement" does not show up in the LOO even once.

There is no question that Ra stated we must discern.

The term judgment is often used interchangeably with discernment, but you seem to be referring to judgment in the context of deciding the fate of an other-self; ie. as fundamentalist religious people often do, when they say who is 'saved' and who is not.

But I don't see that happening here.

There isn't a single thread, anywhere on Bring4th, whose topic is idle gossip about celebrities, judging their exploits. Neither are there any discussions which seek to ascertain who is harvestable and who isn't, as I've seen on Christian forums. (Yeah, no kidding, I saw one entitled, "Once you're saved, are you always saved, or can you lose your salvation?" in which the participants proceeded to analyze who was 'saved' and who wasn't, all based purely on beliefs.)

Bring4th's guidelines require respect, not only to other members, but to other-selves in general. Rarely have I ever had to enforce this guideline; our members are generally very respectful even when discussing famous (or infamous) other-selves with whom they are in direct disagreement.

So, I don't see this particular thread as being judgmental, though it is definitely discerning. Rather, I see it as a sincere, constructive effort to understand polarity and the requirements of Harvest.

Ra never answered questions about contemporary figures. Ra only answered questions about historical figures. This indicates, to me, that Ra saw value in using those historical figures as examples, to illustrate what they were trying to teach us about polarity.

By studying Patton, Hitler, or any of the others mentioned by Ra, we can better understand how those intangible concepts like polarity manifest in real people, and we can learn from their lives.
(06-28-2011, 06:35 PM)seejay21 Wrote:  Someone along the way here stated Patton participated in War, he clearly isn't harvestable. This statement is wildly distrorted. the opposite is actually more true, participating in war might be the defining catalyst to see things clearly.

I haven't gone back and re-read all the posts, but I don't recall anyone saying that at all. What I do remember is this:

(06-28-2011, 11:44 AM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  I don't believe there is a place in 4D/positive for those who believe that killing and war-making is the best course of action in any situation, despite how "noble" the cause may be.

It seems that you interpreted the statement as saying that no one who ever killed can be harvestable STO. But that's not what Tenet said. (Unless you are referring to another quote that I missed...?)

This isn't fundamentalist Christianity. There are no 'unforgivable sins.'

All is catalyst. But we must learn from the catalyst, and make choices based on that catalyst.

Believing that killing and war-making are appropriate, isn't the same as participating in killing/war. Tenet's words are different from the words used when quoting him. He never said that anyone who ever fought in wars can never be harvestable. He seemed to be referring to those who view violence as acceptable.

One could participate in killing/war and then later realize that they aren't suitable for the STO path, and thus utilize that catalyst to polarize STO.

In fact, I know people who fought in wars, and they no longer accept war as suitable for their path. They have accepted responsibility for their past actions, and are working on forgiveness of self and other-selves, to clear the karma from their actions. I'm sure this happens a lot, being that this planet is so violent overall. Of course those who were violent can 'repent' (to use a Christian term) and polarize STO.

I think Tenet was referring to someone who participated in killing/war and yet, still thinks they are acceptable, instead of learning that they aren't. In Christian terms, refuses to "repent" for their past actions.

(Please excuse the Christian term but it seems appropriate in this case.)
(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  it is also a naive, and the answer that Ra gives suites, basically an answer for a child to ponder. A childish question. A childish answer. I sometimes wonder if Ra is still stuck in his naive mistake himself.

Wow. That's a first. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I've just never seen anyone refer to Ra as childish before. A civilization millions of years more advanced than we are...

(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  Answering the questions asked, knowing that the answers will be distorted, on purpose, to create catalyst. He never lies. He leaves it up to us to figure out.

Ra went to great lengths to minimize distortion.

(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  Here we are though. To dicern, to "judge" the meaning of his "words". It is amazaing that there are no "words" for the questions that are asked, but Ra offers them nonetheless!

Seejay, I'm getting the impression that some of Ra's words don't resonate with you.

(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  As far as Patton, in the micro, God bless him for being loyal to his 3d reality. Not many have the gumpsion to be purely true to the illusion as we all agreed to do.

Loyal to a 3D reality that is basically a school for juvenile delinquents? A planet that is far, far behind other planets, because of its bellicose tendencies?

I respectfully but strongly disagree with you here. We aren't supposed to stay loyal to such backwards, primitive actions like war. We didn't agree to any such thing. Quite the opposite! The objective is to lift the planet above such primitive, barbaric actions, so that the planet's inhabitants can evolve. I don't think we owe any loyalty to the machinations of war whatsoever.

(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  We wouldn't be here otherwise without the agreement we made. Don't make the mistake that he is distorted with "war mongering". He was true to his mission, and the will of his 3d brothers, even though it sucks, and to his own detriment.

Again I strongly disagree. He failed to become harvestable. We can deduce from that, that he failed in his mission. He had a chance to stand up to the atrocity of war, but instead chose to continue to participate in it.

(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  War is an amazing catalyst.

A common misconception is that if something is catalyst, that means we should give in to it. I disagree. The purpose of catalyst is to spur us into action, into making a choice. Sure, war can be a catalyst, but only if the STO-oriented entity realizes that it isn't suitable. If he continues to support war, then the catalyst has failed.

(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  Ra says so himself. To assume that all who participate are evil doers is naive self indulgance.

No one has said that.

(06-29-2011, 01:29 AM)seejay21 Wrote:  Turning a blind eye because it leaves a sour taste in your mouth is selfish.

I don't think anyone is doing that either. Rather, we are all confronting the issue and seeking to understand it, and do what we can to transmute it. But in order to transmute it, we must make a choice about its appropriateness for the STO path.

Seejay, I can see that this topic is raising some painful issues for you, because of your past involvement in war. We all have pasts that we seek to reconcile with our STO path. You are not alone. I hope that you find peace and healing! Heart

Edit: I joined this discussion late. I see that Tenet has already addressed the points I just addressed.

Edit #2: Sometimes our pasts can't be reconciled with our STO path. But they can be healed.
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07-04-2011, 05:52 AM,
#50
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(06-29-2011, 11:56 AM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  Am I really here on Bring4th.org arguing about whether or not KILLING OTHER HUMAN BEINGS is a fourth density value?

Tenet, I'm so glad you came back. I am reveling in all your posts. WELL SAID! ALL of it! Please stick around.
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Tenet Nosce
07-05-2011, 05:09 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-21-2011, 12:50 PM by Tenet Nosce.)
#51
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(07-04-2011, 05:52 AM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:  Tenet, I'm so glad you came back. I am reveling in all your posts. WELL SAID! ALL of it! Please stick around.

Thanks! Glad to be here!

Even though I did already address most of the points you brought up, it is good to see that you read what I wrote in the sense that I meant it. So, your interpretation of my words is spot on, just in case anybody was wondering!

I have been studying the Law of One material for over fifteen years now, and while I wouldn't purport to understand every last detail and nuance, I am pretty sure I get the main points very solidly.

At any rate, by this point I would like to thank seejay21 because his posts have acted as the catalyst for me to seek even greater clarity on the Law of One. And so I do have something more to share...

You actually set me up quite nicely because it has a lot to do with what happens when a person runs the LoO material through a Judeo-Christian-Muslim line of thinking.

Not to say that they are totally incompatible. I understand Carla herself operates within a Christian framework of belief. And yet, there are some really important discernments that need to be made in order to understand where Ra is coming from.

The main thing has to do with eschatology, which I will admit I didn't know the definition of until a few days ago. Basically, the term refers to beliefs about the end of the world.

What I learned is that there are two distinct categories of eschatology.

The first, called historical eschatology, is the kind you find in the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim school of thought. Which, I can't help but point out, is decidedly militaristic in its view. I'm down with the teachings of Jesus, but let's face it, Jehovah is a war god, pure and simple.

This is classic Book of Daniel and Revelations-type stuff. In this view, time is conceived of as linear and the entire history of the world is leading up to some sort of cosmic climax, after which we all just live "happily ever after" or in "eternal damnation", according to however one is judged by God.

A second, related idea is that of salvation. Again, most people who were raised in Western society take salvation to mean having something to do with a Savior or Hero who comes and rescues humanity from immanent doom. In some New Age circles, the Saviors are ETs come back to save us.

With all due respect to my Jewish, Christian, and Muslim friends, this is NOT the mental framework which Ra is coming from. And I will admit, that much of my frustration in discussing this topic, and with the world in general, is this stubbornly dogged one-track mentality which insists on interpreting EVERYTHING in terms of Judaeo-Christian-Muslim belief systems.

I just have found that line of thinking to result in some very closed-minded self-righteous people who think that it is just fine to kill another human being for simply not subscribing to their belief system. So sometimes I feel moved to draw a very hard line with these folks. Sorry, Jesus is not coming back. The apocalypse is not coming. The pearly gates are not opening for you. Sorry, you've got it all wrong. You and everybody else who has believed the lies of the "apocalypse" and "salvation" over the last 2500 years. This isn't just my opinion, it is out of history books filled with religious folk who believed that their time was the "end time" and that the Savior was about to come. I say, you've been duped. Again. At this point it is just silly to continue to believe in this horrible lie, and to live in the immense anxiety it produces, and call it a testament to "faith".

Not everybody, mind you, but one would be pretty hard-pressed to find a Hindu, Buddhist, or Taoist, for example, that would agree it is their God-given duty to make war on other human beings for failing to adhere to their belief system. This is because in a very fundamental sense, their concept of salvation is through self-actualization, and not divine grace.

Anyhow, according to my repeated and extensive readings of the Law of One, I have come to the conclusion that the 2012 eschatology that has become associated with it is a mythical eschatology which takes a cyclical view of time.

The Law of One is very crystal clear that no entity is lost in Creation. However, there is a specific time-frame for beings to achieve a particular vibratory frequency which is compatible with the next phase of human evolution. Otherwise, you repeat the cycle. This is not punishment, and in fact is yet another great opportunity for service.

That time-frame is now in its very last moments. Is there still opportunity for people to "wake up"? Absolutely. But for the most part, I view the Western world as filled to the brim with people who have been given every opportunity to choose differently in life, yet stubbornly hold on to their spiritually childish views, based on somebody else's spiritually childish views, which are erroneously taken to be the literal Word of God. Because, you know, God only talked directly to people in the distant past but has somehow since then become impotent to do so.

I can respect their free will to choose to believe in a falsehood. However, I do not have to entertain their beliefs out of a false sense of respect for their religion. Sometimes I feel the Love n' Lighters get a little carried away with their tolerance toward other people's intolerance, especially when it comes to religious belief systems. If we are supposed to "lead the way" into the next phase of human evolution, I believe it will be necessary to create an environment of strong social pressure against violent thinking. Especially at first.

I also think the harvesting process will take a lot of the burden off of the rest of society which is now so tied up in dealing with the minority of people who, not only persist in violent thinking, but have the means to carry it out on a global scale. Most people are ready to move on, but they have been held hostage to behaviors which are not only incongruent with, but antithetical to, a spiritually evolved society. This is not mere sin, but iniquity. (Just to throw in a Christian term) Smile

But there still will be many who teeter in confusion, as one who is recently separated from an abusive family. We will need to guide them. Yes, with love, but also with the wisdom to know better than to allow children to run out in front of moving vehicles.

So sorry, Patton, ol buddy, ol pal, that the war thing didn't work out for ya. I'll catch you next time around. Or not. Good thing for the warmongers is that there probably won't be much else to do but hunting and gathering for a long, long time. Wink
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07-05-2011, 06:46 PM,
#52
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
Tenet that was incredible. I grew up in a southern Baptist family. Very traditional. And where my family(of which I'm truly blessed) is very full of light and I believe are all very much harvestable, I still grew up in fear. Fear for my mortal soul. It was a very confusing and scary time for me. I didn't understand how God could throw a soul to the wayside, for being human in a human world.

Thank you for your post, in reading it I feel some doors have closed on that part of my life... I owe the Ra Material and the L/L Reasearch team for helping me break the Dogma in my mind that is a fear based Religon. And I agree that I need to put more coinsious effort in Revealing this fear to those still trapped in its grasp. Truly inspirational post Tenet!! Thank you!!
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07-05-2011, 07:02 PM,
#53
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  I can respect their ability to choose to believe in a falsehood. However, I do not have to entertain their beliefs out of a false sense of respect for their religion. Sometimes I feel the Love n' Lighters get a little carried away with their tolerance toward other people's intolerance, especially when it comes to religious belief systems. If we are supposed to "lead the way" into the next phase of human evolution, I believe it will be necessary to create an environment of strong social pressure against violent thinking. Especially at first.

a quite clear and precise approach.
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07-05-2011, 08:45 PM,
#54
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  the kind you find in the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim school of thought. Which, I can't help but point out, is decidedly militaristic in its view. I'm down with the teachings of Jesus, but let's face it, Jehovah is a war god, pure and simple.

Yes, and we know why, because we know who 'Jehovah' really was. I realized that, on my own after reading the old testament and being horrified by what I read, and then read the Law of One. It was one among many points that confirmed the Law of One for me.

(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  With all due respect to my Jewish, Christian, and Muslim friends, this is NOT the mental framework which Ra is coming from. And I will admit, that much of my frustration in discussing this topic, and with the world in general, is this stubbornly dogged one-track mentality which insists on interpreting EVERYTHING in terms of Judaeo-Christian-Muslim belief systems.

YES!! Me too! Even many New Age channels, flavor their channelings with their Christian backgrounds.

Another thing that stood out, and impressed me so much about the Law of One, was that it wasn't flavored (distorted) by any such religious programming.

(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  I just have found that line of thinking to result in some very closed-minded self-righteous people who think that it is just fine to kill another human being for simply not subscribing to their belief system.

You're right; it is the 'Abrahamic' religions that tend to do that. The difference is only in degree and whether it's directly or indirectly. Most Christians would never directly engage in terrorist acts, but don't see the contradiction when they support such acts indirectly, by supporting war.

(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  So sometimes I feel moved to draw a very hard line with these folks. Sorry, Jesus is not coming back. The apocalypse is not coming. The pearly gates are not opening for you. Sorry, you've got it all wrong. You and everybody else who has believed the lies of the "apocalypse" and "salvation" over the last 2500 years. This isn't just my opinion, it is out of history books filled with religious folk who believed that their time was the "end time" and that the Savior was about to come. I say, you've been duped. Again. At this point it is just silly to continue to believe in this horrible lie, and to live in the immense anxiety it produces, and call it a testament to "faith".

How have they responded, when you were blunt like that? I too have wondered if maybe it's time to be more blunt on some of these things. I have shocked some of them by telling them I cannot accept the Bible, because it doesn't meet my standards of basic human decency. It's too violent and is full of genocides, baby killing and other atrocities. That usually gets quite a reaction! Definitely not what they expected me to say!

I do it in a nice way that respects their choice, but hopefully will get them to at least start to question. But now I'm starting to wonder, whether we should be more blunt, because their fanaticism is affecting lots of other people. Look at how the current wars were largely supported by this community. Look at how some of their leaders actually support these wars, because they think it will set up events according to prophecy and facilitate the return of Jesus. They are free to believe whatever they want, but when it starts affecting others, to the point of violence based on beliefs, then they have crossed a line.

(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  Not everybody, mind you, but one would be pretty hard-pressed to find a Hindu, Buddhist, or Taoist, for example, that would agree it is their God-given duty to make war on other human beings for failing to adhere to their belief system. This is because in a very fundamental sense, the concept of salvation is through self-actualization.


Very true.

(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  I can respect their ability to choose to believe in a falsehood. However, I do not have to entertain their beliefs out of a false sense of respect for their religion. Sometimes I feel the Love n' Lighters get a little carried away with their tolerance toward other people's intolerance, especially when it comes to religious belief systems. If we are supposed to "lead the way" into the next phase of human evolution, I believe it will be necessary to create an environment of strong social pressure against violent thinking. Especially at first.

Well said!

(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  I also think the harvesting process will take a lot of the burden off of the rest of society which is now so tied up in dealing with the minority of people who, not only persist in violent thinking, but have the means to carry it out on a global scale. Most people are ready to move on, but they have been held hostage to behaviors which are not only incongruent with, but antithetical to, a spiritually evolved society. This is not mere sin, but iniquity. (Just to throw in a Christian term) Smile

But there still will be many who teeter in confusion, as one who is recently separated from an abusive family. We will need to guide them. Yes, with love, but also with the wisdom to know better than to allow children to run out in front of moving vehicles.

Well said!
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07-05-2011, 09:06 PM,
#55
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(07-05-2011, 08:45 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:  
(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  With all due respect to my Jewish, Christian, and Muslim friends, this is NOT the mental framework which Ra is coming from. And I will admit, that much of my frustration in discussing this topic, and with the world in general, is this stubbornly dogged one-track mentality which insists on interpreting EVERYTHING in terms of Judaeo-Christian-Muslim belief systems.

YES!! Me too! Even many New Age channels, flavor their channelings with their Christian backgrounds.

Another thing that stood out, and impressed me so much about the Law of One, was that it wasn't flavored (distorted) by any such religious programming.

(07-05-2011, 05:09 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  I just have found that line of thinking to result in some very closed-minded self-righteous people who think that it is just fine to kill another human being for simply not subscribing to their belief system.

You're right; it is the 'Abrahamic' religions that tend to do that. The difference is only in degree and whether it's directly or indirectly. Most Christians would never directly engage in terrorist acts, but don't see the contradiction when they support such acts indirectly, by supporting war.

I know a person who was raised with strict Christian dogma. Recently they have come to disbelieve all religion. What hasn't left this person is the dogmatic way of looking at the world. The judgements are still there. The inclination that their view is the only one that is correct is still there. Only, now, it seems the dogma is toward an inclination for war and hatred for "terrorists". Basically, the idea that all religious extremists should be met with extreme measures.

I don't have a reason for telling you this, other that it is something I am currently observing. It does show that our view, to continue with love, isn't the only alternative to realizing religion isn't entirely "truth".
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07-06-2011, 12:31 PM,
#56
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(07-05-2011, 06:46 PM)111 Wrote:  Tenet that was incredible. I grew up in a southern Baptist family. Very traditional. And where my family(of which I'm truly blessed) is very full of light and I believe are all very much harvestable, I still grew up in fear. Fear for my mortal soul. It was a very confusing and scary time for me. I didn't understand how God could throw a soul to the wayside, for being human in a human world.

Thank you for your post, in reading it I feel some doors have closed on that part of my life... I owe the Ra Material and the L/L Reasearch team for helping me break the Dogma in my mind that is a fear based Religon. And I agree that I need to put more coinsious effort in Revealing this fear to those still trapped in its grasp. Truly inspirational post Tenet!! Thank you!!

Thanks! And yes, I'm sure there are tons of good Christians out there that make the grade.

It is just really weird to me how many Christians hold on to fear-based programming, cause you know, I've read all of Jesus' words and I can't find one hair of fear anywhere in the message.

We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
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kycahi
07-06-2011, 12:46 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-06-2011, 12:47 PM by Bring4th_Austin.)
#57
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
(07-06-2011, 12:31 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  
(07-05-2011, 06:46 PM)111 Wrote:  Tenet that was incredible. I grew up in a southern Baptist family. Very traditional. And where my family(of which I'm truly blessed) is very full of light and I believe are all very much harvestable, I still grew up in fear. Fear for my mortal soul. It was a very confusing and scary time for me. I didn't understand how God could throw a soul to the wayside, for being human in a human world.

Thank you for your post, in reading it I feel some doors have closed on that part of my life... I owe the Ra Material and the L/L Reasearch team for helping me break the Dogma in my mind that is a fear based Religon. And I agree that I need to put more coinsious effort in Revealing this fear to those still trapped in its grasp. Truly inspirational post Tenet!! Thank you!!

Thanks! And yes, I'm sure there are tons of good Christians out there that make the grade.

It is just really weird to me how many Christians hold on to fear-based programming, cause you know, I've read all of Jesus' words and I can't find one hair of fear anywhere in the message.

I think it's because a lot of them listen to their church rather than Jesus. The church, for the most part, is a result of Orion impressions. Elite, hierarchy, someone leading you to believe that their interpretation of God is more correct than your's or anyone else's. So much comes from a place of non-acceptance rather than acceptance.
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kycahi
07-06-2011, 12:49 PM,
#58
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
Yes Tenet, thank you for your posts. They provide a perspective that I had not realized before. Look forward to more of them.
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07-06-2011, 07:52 PM,
#59
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
I have let that fear go, I know in my heart of hearts that this journey of exploring infinite creation is eternal. But everyone is not so comforted. I have a friend who is right this minuet struggling with this fear. She tells me every night, she opens her bible and begins to cry so hard she closes it again. She is struggling with her actions. She LOVES having relations with men, and does quite often with many. Her family drags her to church every sunday. She is in such turmoil it brings myself to tears :/

She herself is full of light and love, and likes to express herself through sex. But the fear of eternal damnation consumes her life. The idea is nothing more than control. A holy thumb pressed hard upon the backs of those who have never known another way. Its "unholy" to explore "blasphemous" teachings and understandings...

My mother, a christian of 30 years is coming around. I have, in very deep and intuitive discussions explained to her the many "miracles" and experiences I've had and explained the nature of creator in the mindset in which Ra presents it. And she has since agrees that there are "other" ways to seek god!! I could hear the release of fear in her voice Smile it was beautiful!! We may not all have the ability to reach millions with this message. But I believe that we are where we are for a reason.

This is a subject that has great resonance with me, I have known this fear.
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07-07-2011, 06:59 AM,
#60
RE: More Positive but Less Harvestable
i hope your friend comes out of her christian haze. :/ it's a sucky way to live.
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