Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
10-30-2012, 05:16 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
I find this similar to what you were saying Tenet.

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/1985/1985_1006.aspx Hatonn Wrote:...Things do not come from you as much as through you, for in whatever you may do, you are a channel. There is no situation in which you are not channeling and being used as an instrument either by yourself, by other entities, or by circumstances themselves. The great choice to make, then, in the desire to speed up the spiritual evolution is the choice to allow that through you which you desire to be spent through you...

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-02-2012, 05:24 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-02-2012, 05:25 PM by JustLikeYou.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
Oh, hello. I suppose it's time to respond.

Tenet Nosce Wrote:My whole thrust of discussion here is about avoiding reading things into the material that aren't there.

Likewise. But it is going to happen anyway.

Quote:Third density experience (represented by the 21 Archetypes) is the laying of the foundation, culminating in the last concept complex in Archetype 22- The Choice.

This is not a faithful representation of the quote (77.12), though the error is easy to make. Ra emphasizes more than once in Book IV that the Archetypes are not to be identified with experience that we have of those Archetypes. In this case, you have interpreted the foundation (the Archetypical Mind) as culminating in another Archetype (22), rather than an experience which is described by that Archetype. The entirety of the Archetypical Mind is the foundation, for this must be in place before the illusion is established. In other words, The Choice, as Ra has confirmed, is part of the Logoic plan. The concept complex of The Choice describes the culmination of the experience of 3D, but it, itself, is not that culmination.

Quote:The Choice, is relatively fixed and single. If it is single, that means it is not happening again and again.

In the context of that quotation, Ra defines what the word “single” means: “each foundation is itself not single but a complex of concepts...the foundations may be seen have unique facets and relationships for each mind/body/spirit complex” (77.13). Thus, “single” does not refer to the recurrence or non-recurrence of the experience of Archetype 22; rather, it refers to the simplicity of the Archetype.

Quote:Ra says: The Choice becomes available to each at third-density harvest.

Ra also says: “[T]he possibility of choice between the concept or distortion of service to self or service to others... marks the end of what you may call the unself-conscious or innocent phase of conscious awareness” (30.1). (Note that Ra was the one who introduced the word “choice,” which did not appear in the question.)

I find it appropriate to bring in a piece of tangential information.

27.13
Ra Wrote:The vibration or density of love or understanding is not a term used in the same sense as the second distortion, Love; the distortion Love being the great activator and primal co-Creator of various creations using intelligent infinity; the vibration love being that density in which those who have learned to do an activity called “loving” without significant distortion, then seek the ways of light or wisdom. Thus in vibratory sense love comes into light in the sense of the activity of unity in its free will. Love uses light and has the power to direct light in its distortions. Thus vibratory complexes recapitulate in reverse the creation in its unity, thus showing the rhythm or flow of the great heartbeat, if you will use this analogy.

In this passage, Ra draws a distinction between the Second Distortion, Love, and the fourth density vibration, love. Yet in this very same passage, Ra describes the vibrational densities as recapitulating in reverse the creation in its unity. If the two are distinct, how can they also be spoken of as the same? The key here is that love is a microcosm of Love. That is, the fourth vibrational density is a holographic reflection of the Second Distortion on a lower arc.

This same thought-process can be applied to The Choice. It is evident throughout the Ra Material that the purpose of 3D is to choose either positive or negative and then step into 4D where work exclusively within one of these polarities can then begin. To argue otherwise flies in the face of the whole of the work. Your emphasis on The Choice occurring at the end of third density seems to lose track of this simple common-sense message within the Ra Material. I do not disagree with you that the choice is offered at harvest – how can I, you have a quote to support it. However, I do disagree with you that this is the only interpretation of the word. I would suggest that the Choice offered at Harvest is the macrocosm, whereas the choice in each and every moment (STS or STO) is the microcosm. If you attend to each Archetype, you will see that each has macrocosms and microcosms. In the grandest macrocosm, the Archetype is always a singular experience. Archetype 20, for example, can be seen in macrocosm as representing the Harvest itself. 22 ought not to be seen as any different in this sense.

Quote:So... Ra polarized without being aware of the unifying archetype, number 22, The Choice. Again, if The Choice is making a decision between polarities, how is this possible? Answer: It's not possible.

First, Ra was aware of the archetype, but they were not aware of its significance.

Second, it is quite possible to make a choice without realizing that you had a choice. The unawakened do this on a regular basis. Before the veiling, service to others was always chosen because it was not realized that there was an alternative. After the veiling, the alternative, which always existed, became known as an alternative. Ra's experience is a microcosm of this grander picture.
All is well.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 2 users Like JustLikeYou's post:
Patrick, Tenet Nosce
11-05-2012, 05:15 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-02-2012, 05:24 PM)JustLikeYou Wrote:  ...it is quite possible to make a choice without realizing that you had a choice. The unawakened do this on a regular basis. Before the veiling, service to others was always chosen because it was not realized that there was an alternative. After the veiling, the alternative, which always existed, became known as an alternative. Ra's experience is a microcosm of this grander picture.

Well said !

Heart

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2012, 07:47 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-05-2012, 08:04 PM by Tenet Nosce.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-02-2012, 05:24 PM)JustLikeYou Wrote:  Oh, hello. I suppose it's time to respond.

No time like the present!

Quote:Likewise. But it is going to happen anyway.

Yes, it is. But it is not in any case necessary.

It is well for the seeker to notice when a projection has been made, and to consciously withdraw it. This attitude is what differentiates the disciple from the multitudes.

The multitudes, when presented with their own projection, further reject and disown it. This, of course, reinforces the seeming duality of "self" and "other" and acts as an agent of further imbalance in their experience, thus resulting in "karma."

Incidentally, if you were to happen to notice somewhere that I projected into the material, please point it out.

Quote:
Tenet Nosce Wrote:Third density experience (represented by the 21 Archetypes) is the laying of the foundation, culminating in the last concept complex in Archetype 22- The Choice.

This is not a faithful representation of the quote (77.12), though the error is easy to make... In this case, you have interpreted the foundation (the Archetypical Mind) as culminating in another Archetype (22), rather than an experience which is described by that Archetype.

JustLikeYou Wrote:The entirety of the Archetypical Mind is the foundation, for this must be in place before the illusion is established. In other words, The Choice, as Ra has confirmed, is part of the Logoic plan. The concept complex of The Choice describes the culmination of the experience of 3D, but it, itself, is not that culmination.

Ra says: "building and constructing and synthesizing of data culminating in The Choice."

Those aren't my words. Those are Ra's words. There is no more "faithful representation" than to state a direct quote.

As we know, and has been pointed out in this thread multiple times, entities can make a decision between "STS" and "STO" while being relatively unconscious. Therefore, how can this constitute a "building and synthesizing of data"?

Quote:rather, it refers to the simplicity of the Archetype.

I don't think so. If Ra meant "simple" they would have used that word. In that quote, Ra is making a differentiation of Archetype 22 from the other ones, by speaking of it as "fixed and single" relative to the other Archetypes.

Defining "single" as "simple" is fallacious.

Quote:(30.1). (Note that Ra was the one who introduced the word “choice,” which did not appear in the question.)

The Archetypes are not being discussed anywhere in Session 30. The discussion of the Archetypes doesn't begin until Session 66.

Quote:Ra describes the vibrational densities as recapitulating in reverse the creation in its unity.

That is a fascinating point!

Quote:If the two are distinct, how can they also be spoken of as the same?

Because human beings, due to certain limitations of our mind and language, tend to use the same word to refer to several different concepts. Moreover, we tend to conflate the various definitions of words due to a logical fallacy called equivocation.

Quote:This same thought-process can be applied to The Choice.

If the basic thrust of your point is "as above, so below", then you will get no argument from me. Yet the relationship of macrocosm to microcosm is that of congruence, not identity. They aren't the same thing.

Quote:It is evident throughout the Ra Material that the purpose of 3D is to choose either positive or negative and then step into 4D where work exclusively within one of these polarities can then begin.

It is evident that the purpose of 3D is to gain enough polarization in order to attract a sufficient amount of "light of harvestable quality" (85.11) in order to actualize Free Will through the Archetype of The Choice.

Which path of polarization that is used is secondary, and past 6D is irrelevant. The only relevance that it does bear in the lower densities is due to the strong bias of our Logos toward the positive path.

Quote:To argue otherwise flies in the face of the whole of the work.

To argue that there is a real distinction between "self" and "other" flies in the face of the Law of One.

Quote:Your emphasis on The Choice occurring at the end of third density seems to lose track of this simple common-sense message within the Ra Material.

Perhaps your strong bias toward ethics and activity is why it may seem to you that I have lost track of this common-sense message.

"Be nice and helpful to others." This is what you think is the big take-home message from the material? Ra made contact with L/L in order to offer us a common-sense message? Why would we need Ra to tell us what should be common-sense?

Quote:I do not disagree with you that the choice is offered at harvest – how can I, you have a quote to support it.

Then, whatever you are arguing against is your own projection.

Quote:However, I do disagree with you that this is the only interpretation of the word.

This would be your projection. I never said this. What I am pointing out is an obvious distinction between where Ra is talking about Archetype 22- The Choice, and where Ra is merely using the word "choice" in the usual sense.

Quote:I would suggest that the Choice offered at Harvest is the macrocosm, whereas the choice in each and every moment (STS or STO) is the microcosm.

I don't think so. The microcosm of The Choice, is to choose whether to polarize or to remain in the sinkhole of difference. The path of polarization is a secondary decision.

But yes, in each moment we recapitulate that choice by either deciding to use the catalyst at hand for service, or to let it fall by the wayside.

Quote:If you attend to each Archetype, you will see that each has macrocosms and microcosms.

Yes, clearly. But again, the relationship of macrocosm and microcosm is congruence, not identity. They are not the same.

Quote:Archetype 20, for example, can be seen in macrocosm as representing the Harvest itself.

Yes, exactly. Therefore, why do you suppose Ra put 22 - The Choice at the end of the deck, rather than at the beginning, where it is represented as 0 - The Fool?

(and why do I keep asking this question over and over again with no response?)

Quote:22 ought not to be seen as any different in this sense.

It is different because Ra says that it is "fixed and single", relative to the other Archetypes.

Quote:First, Ra was aware of the archetype, but they were not aware of its significance.

If Ra graduated without being aware of its significance, then why would they present it as something so important to us?

Quote:Second, it is quite possible to make a choice without realizing that you had a choice.

Not really, no.

Quote:The unawakened do this on a regular basis.

What the unawakened are doing is acting on subconscious impulses arising from their biases. That's not really a demonstration of free will.

However, we would presume that in the preincarnative veil-free state, the entity does in fact choose which biases to program the incarnation with.

But on this side of the veil, an entity acquires free will (i.e. makes choices) despite of their programmed biases, not because of them.

Quote:Before the veiling, service to others was always chosen because it was not realized that there was an alternative.

Due to the extreme bias of the Logos. Outside of our Logos, the negative path was surely known. And- it was known to our Logos else there couldn't have been a bias to begin with.
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2012, 08:01 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-05-2012, 07:47 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  ...
Quote:Before the veiling, service to others was always chosen because it was not realized that there was an alternative.

Due to the extreme bias of the Logos. Outside of our Logos, the negative path was surely known. And- it was known to our Logos else there couldn't have been a bias to begin with.

Tenet, I'm currious, what is your interpretation of this quote?

Quote:77.19 ...Those, what you would call, early Logoi which chose lack-of-free-will foundations, to all extents with no exceptions, founded Logoi of the service-to-others path. The, shall we say, saga of polarity, its consequences and limits, were unimagined until experienced.

Thanks ! Smile

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 2 users Like Patrick's post:
Parsons, Tenet Nosce
11-05-2012, 08:29 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-05-2012, 08:47 PM by Tenet Nosce.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-05-2012, 08:01 PM)Patrick Wrote:  Tenet, I'm currious, what is your interpretation of this quote?

Let us consider it in context:

Quote:77.18 Questioner: I guess, under the first distortion, it was the free will of the Logos to choose to evolve without free will. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

So, going into the next quote, they are discussing those Logoi that chose to evolve without free will.

Quote:77.19 Questioner: Do the Logoi that choose this type of evolution choose both the service-to-self and the service-to-others path for different Logoi, or do they choose just one of the paths?

Ra: I am Ra. Those, what you would call, early Logoi which chose lack-of-free-will foundations, to all extents with no exceptions, founded Logoi of the service-to-others path. The, shall we say, saga of polarity, its consequences and limits, were unimagined until experienced.

Since these early Logoi chose to evolve without free will, they (and their sub-logoi) all evolved on the positive path. It wasn't until a Logos chose to evolve with free will that the negative path became actualized. Prior to this, it still existed in potentiality.

Therefore, it had been perceived, but not yet experienced.

Quote:77.20 Questioner: In other words you are saying that originally the Logoi that did not choose this free will path did not choose it simply because they had not conceived of it and that later Logoi, extending the first distortion farther down through their evolution, experienced it as an outcropping or growth from that extension of the first distortion. Am I correct in saying that?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes.

Ra agrees.

Quote:77.21 Questioner: Then did this particular Logos that we experience plan for this polarity and know all about it prior to its plan? I suspect that this is what happened.

Ra: I am Ra. This is quite correct.

Don says that our Logos knew all about polarity prior to its plan. Ra says this is quite correct.

Quote:77.22 Questioner: In that case, as a Logos, you would have an advantage of selecting the form of acceleration, you might say, of spiritual evolution by planning what we call the major archetypical philosophical foundations and planning these as a function of the polarity that would be gained in third density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is exquisitely correct.

The Logos chose to use polarity as a means of evolution. Ra says this is exquisitely correct.

This is not to say that the Logos manifested the positive and negative paths of polarization, and then secretly "crossed their fingers" that sub-logoi would take one, and not the other.

Quite to the contrary, if none of the sub-logoi were to choose the negative path, then what would be the point? What would be the point of the negative path, if no entities were to experience it?

Also- Do you realize that an entity could polarize on the negative path, and not play the role of a "bad guy"? They could play the role of a "benevolent despot" for example.
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes Tenet Nosce's post:
Patrick
11-05-2012, 10:44 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-05-2012, 08:29 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  
Quote:...The, shall we say, saga of polarity, its consequences and limits, were unimagined until experienced.

Since these early Logoi chose to evolve without free will, they (and their sub-logoi) all evolved on the positive path. It wasn't until a Logos chose to evolve with free will that the negative path became actualized. Prior to this, it still existed in potentiality.

Therefore, it had been perceived, but not yet experienced.

To me "unimagined until experienced" means that it was not perceived before the first experience happened.


(11-05-2012, 08:29 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  
Quote:77.21 Questioner: Then did this particular Logos that we experience plan for this polarity and know all about it prior to its plan? I suspect that this is what happened.

Ra: I am Ra. This is quite correct.

Don says that our Logos knew all about polarity prior to its plan. Ra says this is quite correct.

Yes, this is very interesting. So we could say that our current experience has been setup with the saga of polarity in mind. Smile


(11-05-2012, 08:29 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  
Quote:77.22 Questioner: In that case, as a Logos, you would have an advantage of selecting the form of acceleration, you might say, of spiritual evolution by planning what we call the major archetypical philosophical foundations and planning these as a function of the polarity that would be gained in third density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is exquisitely correct.

The Logos chose to use polarity as a means of evolution. Ra says this is exquisitely correct.

This is not to say that the Logos manifested the positive and negative paths of polarization, and then secretly "crossed their fingers" that sub-logoi would take one, and not the other.

Quite to the contrary, if none of the sub-logoi were to choose the negative path, then what would be the point? What would be the point of the negative path, if no entities were to experience it?

Also- Do you realize that an entity could polarize on the negative path, and not play the role of a "bad guy"? They could play the role of a "benevolent despot" for example.

Like Ra said, the potential between positive and negative is what gives opportunity for greater work. Like it is for electricity. Also, those choosing the negative path are a part of our Logos, or sub-Logos in some cases. They are certainly not our enemies, they are fellow other-selves.

Humans are not all from the same sub-Logos and so are not all built using the same archetypes. It gives an even more extreme playground for experiences.

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 2 users Like Patrick's post:
Aaron, Tenet Nosce
11-06-2012, 10:13 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
Regarding the duality of our perception of the concept of "free will" (free vs. not free) and regarding whether logoi conceived of/perceived the STS path, there is this quote to consider:

Quote:78.19 Questioner: So the original evolution then was planned by the Logos but the first distortion was not extended to the product. At some point this first distortion was extended and the first service-to-self polarity emerged. Is this correct and if so, could you tell me the history of this process of emergence?

Ra: I am Ra. As proem let me state that the Logoi always conceived of themselves as offering free will to the sub-Logoi in their care. The sub-Logoi had freedom to experience and experiment with consciousness, the experiences of the body, and the illumination of the spirit. That having been said, we shall speak to the point of your query.

The first Logos to instill what you now see as free will, in the full sense, in its sub-Logoi came to this creation due to contemplation in depth of the concepts or possibilities of conceptualizations of what we have called the significators. The Logos posited the possibility of the mind, the body, and the spirit as being complex. In order for the significator to be what it is not, it then must be granted the free will of the Creator. This set in motion a quite lengthy, in your terms, series of Logoi improving or distilling this seed thought. The key was the significator becoming a complex.

The will has apparently always been free throughout the experiences of the universe. It's just that the concept evolves, like all other things, and has become "more free". Free will vs. free-er will rather than free will vs. not free will.
"A mountain holds an echo deep inside. That's how I hold your voice."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 2 users Like Aaron's post:
Patrick, Tenet Nosce
11-08-2012, 11:34 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-08-2012, 11:52 AM by Icaro.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(10-21-2012, 10:16 PM)zenmaster Wrote:  
(03-13-2012, 10:43 AM)Patrick Wrote:  An evil entity does not open his heart chakra (green, compassion).

"The negative ray pattern is the red/orange/yellow moving directly to the blue, this (blue) being used only to contact intelligent infinity. (B2,78)"
I think Ra made another mistake here and meant violet instead of blue.

That doesn't make sense either..violet seems to correspond to intelligent infinity, or a state of being/sacramental experience.

"However, the negatively polarized entity will have achieved harvest due to extremely efficient use of red and yellow/orange, moving directly to the gateway indigo bringing through this intelligent energy channel the in-streamings of intelligent infinity."

My thought process was that blue is used to express the self for control, but here they're now talking about indigo, which I suppose must involve recognition of self as creator and the use of will for self-benefit.

So Tenet, what do you think is involved in harmonizing the polarities?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 4 users Like Icaro's post:
Patrick, Spaced, Tenet Nosce, zenmaster
11-08-2012, 02:34 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
Yes, good catch meant indigo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 2 users Like zenmaster's post:
Patrick, Tenet Nosce
11-08-2012, 02:52 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-08-2012, 11:34 AM)Icaro Wrote:  So Tenet, what do you think is involved in harmonizing the polarities?

Quote:1.1 Questioner: Do you have a specific purpose, and if so, could you tell us something of what your purpose is?

Ra: I am Ra. We communicate now. We, too, have our place. We are not those of the Love or of the Light. We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized, the complexities are simplified, and the paradoxes have their solution. We are one. That is our nature and our purpose.

The Law of One harmonizes the polarities in the understanding that "self" and "other" are identical.
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes Tenet Nosce's post:
Patrick
11-08-2012, 03:22 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-08-2012, 02:52 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  
(11-08-2012, 11:34 AM)Icaro Wrote:  So Tenet, what do you think is involved in harmonizing the polarities?

Quote:1.1 Questioner: Do you have a specific purpose, and if so, could you tell us something of what your purpose is?

Ra: I am Ra. We communicate now. We, too, have our place. We are not those of the Love or of the Light. We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized, the complexities are simplified, and the paradoxes have their solution. We are one. That is our nature and our purpose.

The Law of One harmonizes the polarities in the understanding that "self" and "other" are identical.

Yes and we should remember that we are currently recapitulating the Creation in reverse. Smile

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes Patrick's post:
Tenet Nosce
11-09-2012, 02:30 AM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-08-2012, 02:52 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  The Law of One harmonizes the polarities in the understanding that "self" and "other" are identical.

Ok. I thought maybe you had a particular viewpoint as to how harmony is achieved. Meaning, possible third density application of the concept wherein "the positive and negative paths must needs take in each other.."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 2 users Like Icaro's post:
Patrick, Tenet Nosce
11-09-2012, 11:39 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-09-2012, 12:15 PM by Icaro.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
It's also interesting that progression through the third density octave is analogous to walking the negative path. There is darkness, disharmony, and the definite desire to control catalyst.

Quote:"The figure is expressing the nature of experience by having its attention caught by what may be termed the left-hand catalyst. Meanwhile, the power, the magic, is available upon the right-hand path.

The nature of experience is such that the attention shall be constantly given varieties of experience. Those that are presumed to be negative, or interpreted as negative, may seem in abundance. It is a great challenge to take catalyst and devise the magical, positive experience. That which is magical in the negative experience is much longer coming, shall we say, in the third density."

I know enlightenment for me felt like an abandonment, a giving in and a letting go (of control), much like the negative polarity eventually does. There was of course a definite unification, and the beginning of greater work.

I think the choice is perhaps put at the end of the deck because it isn't conscious, you are who you are, and so there apparently is no choice to be made..the path one walks just is so. You keep mentioning the fact that the image of the choice seems to display harmony/neutrality. We know enlightenment involves seeing the beauty of both the darkness and the light. For those on the negative path it must involve gnostic recognition, and those on the positive path, it's the ability to forgive and understand it's all relative.

Either way, it seems that the image of the choice is an acknowledgement of the unification that must first be needed to provide the gateway for a "choice" to be made, which is what the image displays.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 3 users Like Icaro's post:
Patrick, reeay, Tenet Nosce
11-09-2012, 12:32 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-10-2012, 11:01 AM by Tenet Nosce.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-09-2012, 02:30 AM)Icaro Wrote:  
(11-08-2012, 02:52 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  The Law of One harmonizes the polarities in the understanding that "self" and "other" are identical.

Ok. I thought maybe you had a particular viewpoint as to how harmony is achieved. Meaning, possible third density application of the concept wherein "the positive and negative paths must needs take in each other.."

Oh, I misunderstood the question! Smile But it really is just an extension of the response above...

For those on the positive path they must come to accept those on the negative path as themselves. Just like where in 4D, there is a loss of the desire to "do battle with light", the epic "battle between good and evil" would come to a head in the 4th subdensity of 3D, then sort of fade away. It is neither won for "self" or "other", but rather fizzles out as different things become more interesting.

If, for example, zenmaster's proposition that the negative path cannot continue polarization in 3D past the 5th sub-density, that would provide a means for this to occur. What the relatively awakened would observe is a rather sudden drop-off in the "pushback" from the "Illuminati"-types when light agendas are forwarded.

So those on the negative path would sort of fade into the background, and eventually disappear. This would also make for some interesting catalyst for all the "lightworker conspiracy buffs" who apparently have their hearts set on watching the "Illuminati" be dragged through the streets and strung up with nooses. (Very "enlightened" attitude, I know Tongue)

The masses, being the masses, wouldn't notice that much of anything has changed, of course.

Now for those on the negative path, this would manifest as the realization that the desire for control can only be pushed so far in this environment. 3D, being a mixed path environment, can never go to 100% control and domination. This would be a big "wake up call" for those who have been intent on manifesting the "New World Order" for all this time.

So what is common on both sides is the realization/understanding that the point of 3D is to polarize through expression of the Self (whichever way that is conceived.) However- and a HUGE point here- it is NOT really for those on EITHER path to attempt to "convert" others to their path, and/or to "save" others from the opposite path.

Remember- increasing the harvest means simply increasing the harvest. It says nothing about a preference for one particular path over the other. Thus the work of the Wanderer is to perhaps influence some to making the decision to leave the "sinkhole of indifference." And, of course, if they succeed in reaching one, they have reached All.

(11-09-2012, 11:39 AM)Icaro Wrote:  I think the choice is perhaps put at the end of the deck because it isn't conscious, you are who you are, and so there apparently is no choice to be made..the path one walks just is so.

Yes, well what you have stated here is the exact reason why I think it CANNOT be what some believe it is. I would invite you to ponder this deeply: How can the "axis upon which the creation turns (76.16)" be an unconscious choice?

Does that make any sense at all, given what we know about the evolution of free will?

As you and others have pointed out- which I do agree with- is that the "choice" (I would rather call it a decision, but whatever) of which path to polarize upon is, for the most part, unconscious.

We are who we are. (I AM THAT I AM) That decision was already made long before we took incarnation, and programmed into our biases.

The "the laying of the foundation, the establishment of the illusion and the viability of that which can be made spiritually viable (76.16)" is equivalent to the "building and constructing and synthesizing of data culminating in The Choice. (77.12)" This is why Ra called it the prelude to the Choice.

I submit that The Choice must be a conscious decision, otherwise it is not a true expression of Free Will, and thus has no spiritual value in that particular respect.

Quote:You keep mentioning the fact that the image of the choice seems to display harmony/neutrality. We know enlightenment involves seeing the beauty of both the darkness and the light. For those on the negative path it must involve gnostic recognition, and those on the positive path, it's the ability to forgive and understand it's all relative.

Yes. I find this to be congruent with my response above. Great way to put it!

Quote:Either way, it seems that the image of the choice is an acknowledgement of the unification that must first be needed to provide the gateway for a "choice" to be made, which is what the image displays.

I might amend this slightly to say that the unification must be acknowledged in potentiality, but not necessarily actualized. That is to say:

"It is not probable; but it is ever possible (65.12)"
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes Tenet Nosce's post:
Patrick
11-09-2012, 01:58 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-09-2012, 02:13 PM by Tenet Nosce.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(10-30-2012, 05:16 PM)Patrick Wrote:  I find this similar to what you were saying Tenet.

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/1985/1985_1006.aspx Hatonn Wrote:...Things do not come from you as much as through you, for in whatever you may do, you are a channel. There is no situation in which you are not channeling and being used as an instrument either by yourself, by other entities, or by circumstances themselves. The great choice to make, then, in the desire to speed up the spiritual evolution is the choice to allow that through you which you desire to be spent through you...

This is exquisitely correct. Big Grin

A ferromagnetic material acquires polarization by alignment of the molecules. Once polarized, a magnet does not (usually) lose its polarization.

That's why it can be confusing to say a magnet is "charged." The idea of charging implies holding electric energy in a capacitor, like a battery or crystal. This is accomplished by the separation of charges according the the process of ionic polarization.

A magnet is typically polarized by placing it into a larger, stronger field. By analogy, our consciousness becomes polarized by placing it into a larger, stronger identity.

For those on the positive path this identity is: I AM THAT.
For those on the negative path this identity is: THAT I AM.

(I AM (THAT) I AM)


In both scenarios, polarization of consciousness occurs by application of the Law of One.

The polarized consciousness, "channels" identity through the Law of Attraction. Identity is the unpolarized (remember magnets attract unpolarized metal filings) "light of harvestable quality (85.11)" The higher the degree of polarization, the less distorted the identity which flows (fluxes) through the channel. Thus:

80.18 Wrote:Questioner: Then would this process of radiation or absorption, since we have what I would call a flux or flux rate, be the measure of the adept?

Ra: I am Ra. This may be seen to be a reasonably adequate statement.

Notice that Ra says here that Don's statement is "reasonably adequate." How do you suppose we could make this more accurate?
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes Tenet Nosce's post:
Patrick
11-09-2012, 02:19 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-09-2012, 02:25 PM by Patrick.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
And when you are polarized enough, you channel the Creator nearly directly without too much distortions. Smile

Then the negative polarity can only channel a subset of the One, they cannot channel the completed One ?

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-09-2012, 02:32 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-09-2012, 02:38 PM by Tenet Nosce.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-08-2012, 03:22 PM)Patrick Wrote:  Yes and we should remember that we are currently recapitulating the Creation in reverse. Smile

Yes- and let us also remember that the Wanderer is gazing backward into this reverse capitulation. Smile

Which is why we have gone Through the Looking Glass into Wonderland.

(11-09-2012, 02:19 PM)Patrick Wrote:  And when you are polarized enough, you channel the Creator nearly directly without too much distortions. Smile

Yes, to a point. That point is Harvest. After that, the channeling is not dependent upon polarization, since The Choice has been made.

Quote:Then the negative polarity can only channel a subset of the One, they cannot channel the completed One ?

Yes, but neither can the positive path. That is why they merge in 6D.
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes Tenet Nosce's post:
Patrick
11-10-2012, 01:20 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-10-2012, 01:21 PM by Icaro.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-09-2012, 12:32 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  So those on the negative path would sort of fade into the background, and eventually disappear. This would also make for some interesting catalyst for all the "lightworker conspiracy buffs" who apparently have their hearts set on watching the "Illuminati" be dragged through the streets and strung up with nooses. (Very "enlightened" attitude, I know Tongue)

It's unfortunate how others can't see how easily healing can occur once it's realized that negative catalyst can only grow relative to the amount of separation drawn upon within the individual. I always think it's interesting how the negative path shows us traits about ourselves that aren't immediately apparent.

Quote:Remember- increasing the harvest means simply increasing the harvest. It says nothing about a preference for one particular path over the other. Thus the work of the Wanderer is to perhaps influence some to making the decision to leave the "sinkhole of indifference." And, of course, if they succeed in reaching one, they have reached All.

I agree that there shouldn't be a dogmatic approach, especially with trying to make others see the light, but even Ra had a positive bias. Wholeness is ultimately radiant. I think it's important to teach what is known from within, but if there is disagreement, that's fine. I've been working with the disciplines of personality, as you similarly mentioned in another thread, and I've noticed others will have realizations once I identify what they are teaching me as a mirror.

As to the rest of your response on the choice.."The majority of third-density beings is far along the chosen path before realization of that path is conscious."

I agree with you, especially in terms of the free will aspect, and also because we know decision making must be made in the dark for true learning (a choice) to occur.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes Icaro's post:
Tenet Nosce
11-11-2012, 12:24 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-11-2012, 12:41 PM by Tenet Nosce.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-10-2012, 01:20 PM)Icaro Wrote:  It's unfortunate how others can't see how easily healing can occur once it's realized that negative catalyst can only grow relative to the amount of separation drawn upon within the individual. I always think it's interesting how the negative path shows us traits about ourselves that aren't immediately apparent.

Yes, it is very interesting. And potentially quite polarizing. Wink It would appear to me that the most effective way to "combat" (for lack of a better term) those on the negative path is to do the inner work necessary to reduce the need for such reflections of negativity in the external world.

Also- what do you mean by "negative catalyst"?

Quote:I agree that there shouldn't be a dogmatic approach, especially with trying to make others see the light, but even Ra had a positive bias.

Yes, Ra has a positive bias. As does the Logos. But also notice that Ra accepts those on the negative path, and does not speak out against them.

Quote:Wholeness is ultimately radiant.

I wonder: Is a black hole whole? Big Grin

Quote:I think it's important to teach what is known from within, but if there is disagreement, that's fine.

I think it is an interesting point that the Latin educo most accurately translates as: to draw forth (from within). Consider this in contrast to indoctrination which refers to imposing beliefs from without.

Quote:I've been working with the disciplines of personality, as you similarly mentioned in another thread, and I've noticed others will have realizations once I identify what they are teaching me as a mirror.

Fascinating, isn't it?! I wonder... if you were having realizations alone in a cave with no direct contact with other humans... would it still benefit the collective?

Quote:As to the rest of your response on the choice.."The majority of third-density beings is far along the chosen path before realization of that path is conscious."

Yes, exactly. I also think it is potentially valuable to look at the entire quote:

19.16 Wrote:Questioner: Then, through free will, some time within the third density experience, the path splits and the entity consciously chooses—or he probably doesn’t consciously choose. Does the entity consciously choose this path of the initial splitting point?

Ra: I am Ra. We speak in generalities which is dangerous for always inaccurate. However, we realize you look for the overview; so we will eliminate anomalies and speak of majorities.

The majority of third-density beings is far along the chosen path before realization of that path is conscious.

So then, in most cases, the path of polarization was chosen prior to incarnation, while in an unveiled state.

Quote:I agree with you, especially in terms of the free will aspect, and also because we know decision making must be made in the dark for true learning (a choice) to occur.

Then, would you say choice is impossible once the veil is removed?
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-11-2012, 04:07 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-11-2012, 12:24 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  It would appear to me that the most effective way to "combat" (for lack of a better term) those on the negative path is to do the inner work necessary to reduce the need for such reflections of negativity in the external world.

Yep, the function of the magician.

Quote:Also- what do you mean by "negative catalyst"?

Anything that results in disharmony that needs to be addressed, or catalyst that limits/provides less freedom. Interestingly enough, ever greater controlling catalyst is the result of trying to control catalyst Tongue

Quote:Yes, Ra has a positive bias. As does the Logos. But also notice that Ra accepts those on the negative path, and does not speak out against them.

I agree that unity should always be acknowledged.

Quote:I wonder: Is a black hole whole? Big Grin

It's shining light on the other side.

Quote:I think it is an interesting point that the Latin educo most accurately translates as: to draw forth (from within). Consider this in contrast to indoctrination which refers to imposing beliefs from without.

If I had the time, I would make linguistics a hobby. I'm interested in the connection between words as symbol, and telepathy. For instance, how do 3d beings with no language communicate? Do they send images, or are they "sense impressions"?

Quote:Fascinating, isn't it?! I wonder... if you were having realizations alone in a cave with no direct contact with other humans... would it still benefit the collective?

I suppose..as long as one was once part of a social group for collective catalyst to be processed.

Quote:So then, in most cases, the path of polarization was chosen prior to incarnation, while in an unveiled state.

How do you come up with that?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-11-2012, 04:34 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-11-2012, 04:07 PM)Icaro Wrote:  
Quote:So then, in most cases, the path of polarization was chosen prior to incarnation, while in an unveiled state.

How do you come up with that?

Meaning... we are pre-incarnatively programmed with a bias toward one of the two paths.
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-11-2012, 04:39 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-11-2012, 04:34 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  
(11-11-2012, 04:07 PM)Icaro Wrote:  
Quote:So then, in most cases, the path of polarization was chosen prior to incarnation, while in an unveiled state.

How do you come up with that?

Meaning... we are pre-incarnatively programmed with a bias toward one of the two paths.

Thats whats set me off for the most part, the certainty of our subjective damnation/salvation before we would be aware of why. Or, that we we die before we ultimatley know why.
Quote this message in a reply
11-11-2012, 08:41 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-11-2012, 04:07 PM)Icaro Wrote:  ...
Quote:So then, in most cases, the path of polarization was chosen prior to incarnation, while in an unveiled state.

How do you come up with that?

Quote:83.3 ...the veiling process is a space/time phenomenon...

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-12-2012, 01:32 AM, (This post was last modified: 11-12-2012, 11:56 AM by Tenet Nosce.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-11-2012, 04:39 PM)Cyan Wrote:  Thats whats set me off for the most part, the certainty of our subjective damnation/salvation before we would be aware of why. Or, that we we die before we ultimatley know why.

It would certainly be possible to assign less distorted terms than damnation/salvation to the two paths of polarization. Don't you think?

I would venture to say that a fair amount of people achieve some level of conscious awareness of the path before they die. If they didn't it is certainly for no lack of catalyst around these parts. Big Grin And even those aren't consciously aware benefit from the polarization gained upon it.

I also thought this quote might be relevant to your statements:

17.43 Wrote:The seniority by vibration is the preferential treatment, shall we say, which follows the ways of the Law of One which encourages harvestable individuals, each individual becoming aware of the time of harvest and the need on a self-level to bend mind, body, and spirit towards the learn/teaching of these lessons, is given priority in order that this entity may have the best possible chance, shall we say, of succeeding in this attempt.
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-12-2012, 12:05 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-11-2012, 04:07 PM)Icaro Wrote:  Yep, the function of the magician.

5.2 Wrote:To begin to master the concept of mental discipline it is necessary to examine the self. The polarity of your dimension must be internalized. Where you find patience within your mind you must consciously find the corresponding impatience and vice versa. Each thought that a being has, has in its turn an antithesis. The disciplines of the mind involve, first of all, identifying both those things of which you approve and those things of which you disapprove within yourself, and then balancing each and every positive and negative charge with its equal. The mind contains all things. Therefore, you must discover this completeness within yourself.

The second mental discipline is acceptance of the completeness within your consciousness. It is not for a being of polarity in the physical consciousness to pick and choose among attributes, thus building the roles that cause blockages and confusions in the already-distorted mind complex. Each acceptance smoothes part of the many distortions that the faculty you call judgment engenders.

The third discipline of the mind is a repetition of the first but with the gaze outward towards the fellow entities that it meets. In each entity there exists completeness. Thus, the ability to understand each balance is necessary. When you view patience, you are responsible for mirroring in your mental understanding, patience/impatience. When you view impatience, it is necessary for your mental configuration of understanding to be impatience/patience. We use this as a simple example. Most configurations of mind have many facets, and understanding of either self polarities, or what you would call other-self polarities, can and must be understood as subtle work.

The next step is the acceptance of the other-self polarities, which mirrors the second step.

These are the first four steps of learning mental discipline. The fifth step involves observing the geographical and geometrical relationships and ratios of the mind, the other mind, the mass mind, and the infinite mind.

Quote:Interestingly enough, ever greater controlling catalyst is the result of trying to control catalyst

Fascinating, isn't it? Big Grin

Quote:It's shining light on the other side.

So then, what appears absorbent from one side appears radiant from the other side?

Quote:If I had the time, I would make linguistics a hobby. I'm interested in the connection between words as symbol, and telepathy. For instance, how do 3d beings with no language communicate? Do they send images, or are they "sense impressions"?

Maybe all of the above?

Quote:I suppose..as long as one was once part of a social group for collective catalyst to be processed.

So then, would you say that "outward service" is not in any case necessary in order to polarize on the positive path?

Also, I'm curious to know- what is your take on this?

17.25 Wrote:It is the right/privilege/duty of those opening consciously the gate to intelligent infinity to choose the manner of their leaving of the density.

I notice they said "consciously." Do you suppose it is possibly unconsciously open the gate to intelligent infinity? And what is this choice they speak of? Is it perhaps "The Choice"?
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-12-2012, 08:42 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-12-2012, 12:05 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:  So then, what appears absorbent from one side appears radiant from the other side?

That probably wasn't a good analogy. There's completion and a new beginning.

Quote:So then, would you say that "outward service" is not in any case necessary in order to polarize on the positive path?

Also, I'm curious to know- what is your take on this?

The development of consciousness is very much a real thing, where polarization constantly involves symbolic sacrifice and giving, since we're always exchanging energy that can either be accepted or controlled.

17.25 Wrote:I notice they said "consciously." Do you suppose it is possibly unconsciously open the gate to intelligent infinity?

Who knows. While I feel that I have polarized, I do feel that each choice carries more of a weight.

Quote:And what is this choice they speak of? Is it perhaps "The Choice"?

Well there's the rest of it.. "Those of negative orientation who so achieve this right/duty most often choose to move forward in their learn/teaching of service to self." That summarizes a lot that is being discussed.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 2 users Like Icaro's post:
Patrick, Tenet Nosce
11-12-2012, 09:29 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-13-2012, 12:46 AM by Tenet Nosce.)
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
(11-12-2012, 08:42 PM)Icaro Wrote:  I do feel that each choice carries more of a weight.

That's interesting. What do you find weighty about the choosing?

Quote:Well there's the rest of it.. "Those of negative orientation who so achieve this right/duty most often choose to move forward in their learn/teaching of service to self." That summarizes a lot that is being discussed.

My feeling is that it is like a crossroads. Each enters with a specific momentum from a particular pathway, yet each may exit by any of the pathways. Granted, it may be more unlikely to make a 140 degree turn than to pass straight on through.

I get a sense that The Choice is like... for a period the curtain is drawn back and the light of larger life is revealed to whatever degree can be perceived by the conscious entity. The "choosing" is whether or not to join with it. This is why it is the "axis upon which the Creation turns" and why it represents an evolution of Free Will.

It is one thing to be born a citizen of Eternity. It is another thing to become it.
We are unsure as to our success in realigning your modes of mentation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The following 1 user Likes Tenet Nosce's post:
Spaced
11-12-2012, 10:50 PM,
RE: Ra's Adventures in Wonderland
I'm noticing definite changes in consciousness, where I can see the unity and the give/take in everything. I sometimes don't know what is best.

You may be right.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)