A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
06-19-2012, 03:29 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-24-2012, 09:34 PM by Bring4th_Austin.)
#1
A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
With the opening of the Health and Diet forum, we also re-open the temporarily closed discussion titled, In Regards to Eating Meat.

However, the discussion will take place in the course of a new thread, titled, A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet. The old thread, In Regards to Eating Meat will remain closed and archived for reference purposes.

Before moving forward in this new thread, please make reference to the following:
  • In Regards to Eating Meat– the original "meat thread". Included is a comprehensive index of all topics discussed within the thread (huge thanks to Monica, Pablisimo, Pickle, and Diana!) for ease of navigation.

We initiate this new thread in the hopes that a new incarnation of the discussion will freshen the energies and reorient the intentions. As many of you know, the old thread experienced eruptions of both mild and acute cases of tension and misunderstanding between members, and as the principle goal of Bring4th is the generation of love and understanding, and learning to respect one another in the course of our disagreements, we needed a new take on this discussion.

It is asked of all members who enter this thread for the purpose of participating to be extra vigilant in the following key ways:
  • 1. Take responsibility for the emotions that you feel, please. If you feel anger, frustration, superiority/inferiority, resentment, fear, etc., take a moment to say, “I am creating this anger; I am the source of this emotion.” And do your best, please, to clear your intentions so that you’re writing not to one-up, or put down, or win, or prove someone wrong, or vent anger/resentment, but rather to support one another and be true to your authentic opinion in a loving manner.

    2. Consider participating in an academic exercise that may help stretch your understanding of opposing viewpoints http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=5064.

    3. Stay as on-topic as possible. The conversation can flow organically, of course, and many, many aspects of this discussion can be brought under this big tent, but if offshoots evolve which focus strictly on, say, the implications of the discussion itself, regarding communication styles and acceptance of others, the appropriateness and implications of activism, etc., consider creating a new thread, or finding an existing thread that matches the topic.

    4. Please refrain from pinpointing and speculating about the underlying emotional issues and motivators of opposing viewpoints. Attempt not to claim that the opposing person’s viewpoint is expressed because he or she is (insert emotional bias), e.g., guilty, afraid, etc.

    5. If you do find yourself emotionally charged because of the situation, no worries. We ask that you simply take a breather from the discussion, collect yourself, and return in order to reply with due respect and fairness.

    6. Be mindful of over-identification with labels. (See "Pigeonholing" section below.)

And if you remain interested, below is an imperfect moderator review of the meat-eating debate up until this point:


-----REVIEW-----
Those of vegetarian orientation have a conviction. Their conviction is, *in general*, that it is better not to consume or slaughter animal flesh, and not to contribute the self's personal energies to the system of that consumption..

Much in the way that most if not all of us feel that compassion is more evolved than hatred, humility more evolved than pride, spiritual seeking more evolved than dogmatic religious indoctrination, and iPods more evolved than 8-tracks, the vegetarians' is an unbending certainty that the path of vegetarianism is more evolved than the path of meat eating. The vegetarians' reasons rest principally on the compassion they feel for the suffering of second-density creatures, along with the benefits they feel that vegetarianism brings for the health of the planet’s biosphere and the health of individuals, among perhaps other reasons.

Those of vegetarian seeking wouldn’t be following this understanding and making it their way of life and communicating so passionately if they didn’t feel it was a higher path. When a conviction is felt and perceived so strongly that one dedicates ones life to its principles, then one feels it be the best choice for the self.

Obviously, not everyone agrees that vegetarianism is the “best” or highest or most evolved choice. And we the moderators think that the center of this tension between the positions isn’t the notion of what’s best for the self, per se, but rather the tension arises when that notion moves into the territory of what’s best for you, the other self.

This is where the question moves deeper than “What should we eat?” and into “What is the role of activism and the activist in light of a philosophy which values free will above all else while embracing and accepting all with the love of the Creator?” And by activism we in general mean the individual or organized effort to create changes in culture and society through the advocacy of policies, ideas, and actions.

We don’t feel that there is one correct answer to this question, only that it is a question worth considering as it pertains directly to free will; and it is our relationship to the principle of free will which determines our evolutionary path – one way or the other – and forms the heart of our work in third density.

The other general part of this quandary is not so much related to the content of discussion, but how the discussion unfolds, and whether it is respectful to those who feel differently than the speaker.

In list fashion, we feel, in addition to, and perhaps deeper than, the issue of what to eat, there are the following dynamics at play:
  • • Whether second-density animals deserve greater protection and rights
    • Whether third-density entities should respect the second-density entity’s right to life the same way they do the third-density entity’s
    • What constitutes inflammatory language.
    • How our relationship to animals relates to polarity/spiritual evolution/planetary consciousness
    • The difference between emotional vs rational thought. (Neither one of course being superior, though there differences ought to be recognized.)
    • What the role of activism is in the Law of One philosophy and what its boundaries are
    • Whether respecting the free will of another means to not take action when the other is committing what one feels to be a grievous, free-will infringing crime
    • How ones convictions, which desperately want other people to make changes, relate to the need to respect the free will of another upon the positive path
    • How well we listen to one another
    Whether we can accept/love another member in light of viewpoints which incense us
    Whether we can take responsibility for our own emotional state

There is another dynamic which requires some more elaboration. The stance of those with vegetarian convictions is often perceived by those without vegetarian convictions to be communicated from, what in colloquial terms is called, a high horse. This tends to provoke a knee-jerk reaction to find ways to knock the entity from his/her high horse. (We are not implying that the vegetarians are on a “high horse”, just naming a dynamic we see at play.)

Out of this results tension, and the grasping at ideas to “one up” the others in the discussion begins taking place. Once this begins, members identify even more strongly with a mental position, and the process of mutual dialogue stops being an honest sharing of individual’s opinions and beliefs and instead starts being a competition for who can find a logical/philosophical/Law of One-related flaw in the other’s standpoint in order to invalidate them, on both general “sides” of the discussion.


-----Pigeonholing Labels-----
Further, there is the issue of labels and the division that labels tend to create. Ideally when referring to the basic schools of thought on this question it would be better to say something along the lines of “those with vegetarian beliefs” (or some variation of that) in order to distinguish the individual from their beliefs.

We feel that it merges the individual with their chosen belief to say “vegetarian” or “meat-eater”, and limits the individual to a pigeonholed identity to the extent that one begins relating to the other as a vegetarian or as an eater of meat, rather than a soul with vegetarian convictions, or a soul with meat-eating tendencies.

It’s like one side puts on red jerseys, and the other side blue, (with shades of increasing and decreasing intensity of color representing the different nuances of argument) and all of a sudden everyone *becomes* the reds and the blues, no longer the individuals simply wearing jerseys.

The use of the shorthand “vegetarians” and “meat-eaters” can save time, but the trap of this is that one loses the distinction between the label and the entity, the entity which is the Creator and perfect as he/she is.

- - - - - - - -

This is one perspective among others that you are free to use as you see fit, it represents the moderator team's understanding and perspective on the situation. The moderators do not have a privileged point of view. What we do have is a function to fulfill, and in that function we have tasked ourselves with dedicating our consciousness to understanding this issue and working towards creative solution.

Have fun!! Smile

In love and in light,
The Bring4th Moderator Team
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06-22-2012, 03:21 PM,
#2
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_GLB Wrote:  Personally this author has resolved to eat only meat that is humanely raised as a result of information presented in this thread
So, a realized moment of growth or change?Tongue
Sounds like the thread worked some magic LoL!
one who knows not, cares not.
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Monica, Patrick
06-22-2012, 05:19 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-26-2015, 12:31 PM by Monica.)
#3
In Regards to Eating Animals (meat II)
Moderator Note:  This post, along with several after it, have been merged from a separate topic "In Regards to Eating Animals (meat II)".

It's been a long, hard road, fraught with tension and misunderstandings. And yet, the road has provided a rich, scenic view, ripe with opportunity for compassion, understanding, acceptance, and spiritual evolution through efficient use of catalyst as pertaining to the STO path.

Towards the end of this long road, just before the road was blockaded, I had felt encouraged, because we seemed to be finally reaching some understanding, to the point of a couple of 'humane' farmers and I agreeing to work together on the common ground of educating people about the horrors of factory farming, and working together to reduce animal suffering in general.

This was a huge accomplishment! Any time 2 seemingly opposing sides can reach an accommodation and agree to work together on common ground, despite still having strong differences of opinion, that is momentous!

Can you imagine if Republicans and Democrats did this? Or pro-lifers and pro-choicers in the abortion debate? Or evangelical Christians and atheists?

It is my belief that finding such an accommodation is the epitome of acceptance. To accept one whose views or actions are diametrically opposed to one's own, to the point of actually working together with them on a common goal, is powerful indeed.

This is where the power lies...and by power I'm not referring to any sort of self-serving STS power, but to the power that gives impetus to change...the power that creates a 3rd option when before there were only 2 irreconcilable options...the power that forges a new path where before neither path was acceptable to both parties.

I have always contended that if we, who supposedly have the same spiritual foundation, cannot accept those with differing views and work together towards understanding and resolution, what hope is there for the rest of the world?

Seriously, how can we expect peace between Israelis and Palestinians, or between pro-lifers and pro-choicers, or between Democrats and Republicans, if we can't even have a civilized discussion about something that is part of our daily lives - our food - without the vegetarians and meat-eaters getting hostile towards one another?

If a Law of One student who eats animals and another Law of One student who doesn't eat animals can't even find peace, love and acceptance despite their differences, do we really have any basis for complaint when other people in other parts of the world engage in bloody violence?

Does not peace begin with us?

So it was with great sadness that I watched our 3+ years of labor, that had finally culminated in such power, be derailed due to moderator concern about a handful of complaints about the so-called 'discord' in the thread.

Was there discord? Yes indeed. But is love and acceptance about putting on a smiley face and suppressing that discord? Or is love and acceptance about working through such discord and reaching resolution?

I believe it is the latter.

In addition to the progress that was on the verge of being manifest, there was another breakthrough in the making, at the time of the thread's blockade. It was this post by Pablisimo, in which he represented himself, Diana and me, stating:

Quote:Dear Meat-eaters and all those interested in this subject:

This post is from Monica, Diana and Pablísimo. We love you all and thank you for the many rich catalysts provided by this marathon discussion.

We have noticed that many of the same questions and comments continue to crop up, and instead of repeating ourselves, we think we have found a better solution. At various times throughout this discussion, we have, along with a few others, attempted to take a multi-stage approach:

1) Deal with the hurt feelings, sadness, alienation, etc in what we hope was a compassionate and loving way, to relieve immediate suffering and clear emotional static so we could talk constructively.
2) Establish the absolute right of all of us to have our own opinions, even if other people don't like those opinions, which we hope was done respectfully.
3) Contrast extremist approaches, such as PETA sometimes uses, with what we vegetarians here had been doing, which was not extremist and predicated upon, among other things, spiritual growth.
4) Using reasonable analogies and words, explain our perspective clearly from a metaphysical Wanderer standpoint on the one hand, and from a compassion-based 3D human standpoint on the other.

At times, we have all -- vegetarians and meat-eaters alike -- gotten frustrated, weary, hurt, and discouraged at the lack of understanding, despite our best efforts. Please know that we, Monica, Pablísimo, and Diana, never intended to hurt, judge or offend anyone, and that we gave it our best effort!

We wish to answer all questions and comments, and since many of the same ones repeat, and we are all busy, this is our solution: We have decided to re-read the entire thread, in segments which we have divided amongst ourselves, and catalog key points according to topic. Hopefully, time allowing, sometime in the next couple of weeks, we will be posting a list of links to the posts which, in our assessment, most accurately reflect the points we have been trying to convey.

Should you wish to revisit this topic, or gain better understanding of the points we have tried to convey, we invite you to read these key posts. We plan to offer them here, arranged by concept/idea, for your convenience. In the meantime, once again, we thank you for your service, for your insights, and for your love and compassion which you have so freely and unreservedly bestowed upon us.

We would also like to take a moment to recognize the Creator in everyone who reads these words. We firmly believe this is an extremely important topic to consider for all evolving Beings walking an STO-oriented path, and thus we speak. Yet we also recognize that this one single consideration -- the meat or vegetable-based diet - does not define anyone's overall Polarity, Harvestability, or "spiritual fitness."

Our intention is not to judge our human-other selves, nor define their Polarity or Harvestability by one single aspect instead of the totality of many choices and aspects. Rather, our goal is to compassionately advocate for what we believe to be a kinder, more benevolent way of meeting our own needs while honoring our younger Brothers and Sisters, our animal Other-Selves. We sincerely hope that, in our ardor to speak out for those who have no voice, our sincere love and concern for our human Brothers and Sisters is also understood. We love all of you, ALL of our Other-Selves, regardless of density.

Bright blessings to you all!

Monica, Diana and Pablísimo

This was momentous because the 3 of us (along with some input from our compadre Pickle), had realized and identified the areas in which the thread had become bogged down, and had begun actively working on a solution for it.

It is doubly ironic that the thread was closed, right on the verge of us posting what we affectionately dubbed our 'autoresponder' which, in our estimation, would have dramatically curtailed any future discordant debates, for the simple reason that most of the vegetarians would have left the premises.

But alas, we never got the chance to post it, until now. So here it is.

Please understand that this is our sincere effort to simply offer our viewpoints, for the benefit of those are interested in understanding them. Since the original thread is shut down permanently, any future discussion is welcome here on this new thread. But please, before engaging in any new discussion, please use this index first, to locate and explore the thoughts that have already been so lovingly (and sometimes not so lovingly, but still sincerely) expressed by all the participants in the discussion, regardless of which viewpoint they were expressing.

We feel that there is a vast richness of thought and insight in the original thread, and we hope that this index makes it easier to access that richness.

As you may have noticed, there are many sub-topics that go far beyond mere 'diet and health' so much of the original discussion doesn't really fit in this new forum. Gary did say we are free to start new spin-off discussions, as long as they're kept on-topic.

In light of this, I've started a new discussion specifically about the question of whether animals are 'other-selves' at all, which I feel is the crux of the matter and highly relevant to any Law of One student interested in polarizing STO. Therefore, if anyone is interested in exploring that aspect of this very complex issue, please do so in the new thread:

Strictly Law of One Material  > What is an Other-Self? Are 2D Entities Other-Selves?

This thread, in the 'Diet and Health' section, is intended to be a continuation of the original meat thread, hopefully without continuing the discord, but instead focused only on any new angles to that which was already discussed.

Below you will find what is essentially an index to the original meat thread. It represents many hours of labor on the part of Pablisimo, Diana and myself. We had to re-read the entire thread (quite a daunting task!) and compile the posts that best expressed what we had been trying to convey, and then consolidate them into a single list, with topic, author and a link to the original post.

In many cases, the discussion following the linked post is well worth reading too, especially if you're interested in seeing other viewpoints expressed.

Is this list biased? Of course it is. It isn't intended to be a comprehensive index to the entire meat thread, but an autoresponder patterned after what Ra put in place, to answer the same call that kept getting repeated over and over.

Each post was carefully chosen because it offered some insight that had not been expressed anywhere else, or because it offered the same insight but in better words, that might better convey the idea where elsewhere it had failed.

On behalf of Diana, Pablisimo, and Pickle, I hope you find this useful as you traverse the maze of rich thought that has accumulated over the past 3 years, and I hope that any future discussion is respectful and fruitful.

Namaste and Blessings to All

Monica



Why Vegan/Vegetarian food is a superior diet
Post #2 yossarian
Post #149 unity100

Raw Veganism
Post #6 yossarian
Post #8 yossarian
Post #11 yossarian
Post #35 yossarian
Post #91 Bring4th_Monica

Evolution of food requirements through densities
Post #37 ubergud

Monica's story
Post #40 Bring4th_Monica

Merging of the life force when plant eating
Post #49 Bring4th_Monica

But other animals eat meat! (3D Humans have a different path)
Post #25 Pablísimo

Meat eating and the STO Path
Post #50 Bring4th_Monica
Post #110 Bring4th_Monica
Post #111  Pablísimo
Post #177  Pablísimo

Less cruel meat production
Post #52  Lorna

Abstaining from meat eating is not a spiritual litmus test
Post #53  Bring4th_Monica
Post #2363 Pablisimo

Disconnect from what meat actually is
Post #59  Lorna
post: #1818 Monica
Post #2763 Diana
Post #2770 norral
Post #2637 norral

Discrimination and harrasment of vegetarians
Post #67  Bring4th_Monica
Post #74  Ali Quadir
Post #79  Will

Discussing meat eating in a discussion forum
Post # 76  Bring4th_Monica
Post # 108  Bring4th_Monica

The Ethics of Plant Eating
Post #86  Bring4th_Aaron

2D Entities & Suffering
Post #87  Bring4th_Monica

Leather clothing and other meat-derived items
Post #89  Bring4th_Monica

Rape & other analogies / Relative value of animals vs humans / Meat-Eaters NOT being compared to rapists! But killing animals compared to killing/raping humans from the victim's perspective / Do we wish to emulate higher STO (drinking nectar) or higher STS (mutilating cattle and abducting lower density entities) entities?
Post #96 Bring4th_Monica
Post #111  Pablísimo
Post #146  Bring4th_Monica

Extremism
Post #113  Bring4th_Monica
Post #118  Pablísimo
Post #130  thefool
Post #139  Bring4th_Monica

Factory Farms
Post #125  Lorna
Post #143  Pablísimo

Health effects of meat consumption / Benefits of vegetarian diet
Post #126  Peregrinus
Post #173  Bring4th_Monica

Animal sentience
Post #132  Bring4th_Monica
Post #140  Bring4th_Monica
Post #141  Ali Quadir
Post #144  Bring4th_Monica

Pre-incarnational choice
Post #152  unity100

STS and eating animals
post: #155 Monica

Don't we need to keep the ecosystem and animal population in balance?
post: #158 Unity100

Where is eating headed; what does a sun "eat"?
post: #160 Unity100

Is kosher meat cruelty-free?
post: #177 Pablisimo

Wasn't Hitler a vegetarian?
post: #178 Pickle

Don't plants feel pain, too?
post: #188 Monica

B-12 deficiency
post: # 190 Monica, Pickle

Unusual benefit of vegan diet . . . no sunburns
post: #191 Pickle

Eating raw locally
post: #203 Monica

A little-known reason why raw beef is dangerous
post: # 208 Pickle

Amazing story of local plant offering itself for healing
post: #223 Monica

My reasons for being vegetarian
post: #224 Pablisimo
post: #227 Lorna
post: #255 Crown
post: #386 Monica

Meat increases risk of cancer
post: #236 Monica

You Tube video: 87% of all agricultural land in the US is used to feed farm animals; plus success at raw vegan clinic with major illnesses
post: #237 Monica

If every American gave up meat for 1 day a week . . . quirky facts
post: #253 Monica

Eggs, dairy, and the life-force of plants
post: #263 Monica

Possible signs of evolution away from predator/prey even in 2D?
post: #274 Monica

Plant devas
post: #328 Monica

The transition from meat-eating to vegetarian
post: #405 Monica

The transition from ingesting meat to ingesting light
post: #455 Ra, Monica

Animal treatment compared to human treatment by Orions
post: #497 Ra, Pickle, Monica

We kill to eat because we can, not because we need to
post: #404 Pickle

"World Peace Diet" excerpt and review
post: #331 Monica

Catalyst, rape, murder (human), and slaughter (animal)
post: #261 Monica

Philosophy on the divine nature of sustenance through densities derived from the Ra Material
post: #165 Unity100

But you feed meat to your cats and dogs, don't you? Isn't that hypocritical?
Post #643 Aaron
Post #644 Monica
Post #647 Monica and Oceania (and continues in post #656)

Love and joy towards plants
Post #668 Pickle

Developed compassion towards animals AFTER becoming vegetarian
Post #703 Pickle
Post #970 Pickle
Post #1096 Pickle & Diana

Fear hormones in meat
Post #718 Monica
Post #734 Diana (Also:

Feeling better on a plant-based diet
Post #737 Conifer16

But...but...Ra told Carla to eat meat!!! That means Ra favors the eating of meat, right?
Post #740 Monica
Post #1442 Monica
Post #2915 Monica

WHY be an activist for vegetarianism? And is vegetarianism a ticket to 4D?
Post #742 Monica
Post #721 Monica

'Free Range' Eggs and Dairy
Post #2938 Monica

What do 4D entities eat? Living foods / How do we get from Point A (meat) to Point B (living nectar)?
Post #818 Pickle
Post #883 Monica
Post #1360 Pickle
Post #1362 Monica
Post #1374 Monica
Post #2797 Monica
Post #2916 Pickle
Post #2513 Diana

Science shows that plants feel pain too! Therefore it's ok to eat animals!
Post #224 Pablísimo
Post #825 Monica (and a heated debate ensues, which continues for several pages)
Post #2675 Monica (plants communicating psychically - what does that signify?)
Post #2680-2682 Monica (group consciousness)
Post #2684-2692 Pickle
Post #873 Monica
Post #912 Namaste
Post #957 Monica
Post #2642 Monica
Post #1327 Diana
Post #1398 Pickle & Monica

Trying to justify one's self regarding the consumption of meat, by using
plants as a counter argument, holds no valid ground. And...what kind of
entities will cows be when they graduate to 3D?

Post #1405 Namaste
Post #1497 Monica
Post #1149 Monica - on Ra's statements about trees developing sentience
Post #2786 Monica
Post #2650 Diana
Post #2657 Diana

When Ra said "living foods" in 4D, did they mean bloody animals?
Post #1401 Monica

Is a farmer who has humanely raised his livestock for food guilty of murder and war against animals?
Post #2524-2528 Diana

Saying that eating meat is incongruent with STO path is NOT judging those who eat meat
Post #2547 Monica

Why is the animal left out of the equation?
Post #2560 Monica

Helpful resources for being veg in a meat-eating household, and nutritional info
Post #867 Monica

But I once knew a vegan who was sickly! And anyway, Carla eats meat!
Post #877 - 879 Monica

But...but...Ra said we could eat meat!
Post #881 Monica
Post #978 Oceania

Don't animals and humans have a mutually beneficial relationship? Cows and chickens want to be killed and eaten, right?
Post #903 Monica

Denial?
Post #927 Diana
Post #969 Monica
Post #1005 Austin (also views on 'humane' and 'sustainable' farming)

You vegetarians are infringing on our 'right' to eat animals, by expressing your views.
Post #947 Pickle and Monica

Free-range eggs not cruel...fish less cruel?
Post #973 Monica
Post #976 Oceania

Eating plants saves more plants!
Post #975 Monica
Post #1012Diana

Would you eat the animal if you had to kill it yourself? Is killing an animal as easy as plucking a carrot from the ground?
Post #991-993 Oceania & Monica
Post #1034 Oceania

What about killing trees for lumber?
Post #1008 Diana
Post #1018 Monica (also about plants being sentient...carrots vs trees)
Post #1025
(also a response to being told I think I know more than our Logos!)

What is Lifeforce?
Post #1051 Monica & Austin
Post #1057 Monica

What meat can do for us, vs. what we can do for the animal
Post #1066 Monica
Post #1163  Austin

Compassion for 3D entities only? Why not for 2D also?
Post #1068 Namaste
Post #1161 Austin

Love the person, disagree with the action
Post #1105 Austin

Progressing to a gentler way
Post #1113 Diana

Love and Acceptance of those with differing views
Post #1124 Austin

I don't like being told I 'should' do anything.
Post #1130 Monica

Loving the torturer while championing the oppressed
Post #1131 Austin

Link between diet and state of being are intrinsically linked...meat lowers one's vibration
Post #1142 Namaste

Is it ok to harm others, as catalyst?
Post #1157 Monica

Compassion for plants...raising carrots as pets!
Post #1165 Monica

Controlling the oppressor vs championing the oppressed
Post #1166 Austin

Supporting the meat industry
Post #1168 Diana
Post #1176 Austin
Post #1182-1184 Austin
Post #1251  Austin

"Appreciating" the sacrifice doesn't stop the suffering
Post #1194  Austin

The reason for suffering...catalyst! and how to respond to catalyst!
Post #1242 Diana

If you feel good about your choice, then our opinions won't bother you.
Post #1245 Austin

What vegetarians have to endure every day - please cut us some slack!
Post #1266 Monica

Is eating animals conducive to polarization? And should we even care about that?
Post #1270 Monica
Post #1366 Monica

But what about bugs and microbes? And do you care about cows more than humans?
Post: #1590 Pickle
Post #1272 Monica
Post #1444 Pickle & Aaron
Post #1461 Diana
Post #1468 Diana
Post #1470 Diana
Post #1472 Diana
Post #1474 Pickle
Post #1490 Monica

Guilt about eating meat
Post #1275-1277 Monica & Diana
Post #148 Monica

Guilt Serves a Function
Post # 78  Bring4th_Monica

Dr. Gabriel Cousens MD has nearly 100% success rate with those who want to be vegans but crave meat
Post #1428 Monica

Darwinian evolution vs Law of One evolution
Post #1430 Monica
Post #1442 Monica

Are vegetarians motivated by compassion, or do they just want to control  society? and aren't they infringing on the rights of others to choose their own diet? and isn't that yellow ray, not green?
Post #1447 Monica
Post #1449 Monica

Does animal torture drag down the vibration of the planet? Is the meat industry holding us back?
Post #1451 Monica

But I only eat 'humanely' slaughtered animals...why are you lumping me in with those who eat at McDonald's?
Post #1454 Monica

The metaphysical significance of blood
Post #1460 Monica & Tenet Nosce

What's easier to do? Trim a hedge or cut the leg off an animal? Cut the throat of a cow or pull a carrot out of the ground?
Post #1477 Namaste
Post #1479 Namaste

Vegetarians are hypocrites because they eat plants!
Post #1483 Monica

When does a 2D entity become self-aware?
Post #1488 Monica

Should an STO entity participate in knowingly causing suffering for
other-selves, since, after all, they're going to die anyway and it's all catalyst anyway?

Post #1492 Monica

What are cows trying to teach humans?
Post #1496 Diana

Bottom line: We must eat plants. We don't have to eat animals.
Post #1501 Diana

Is it 'ok' to kill animals as long as they weren't tortured? (so-called 'humane' slaughter)
Post #1512 Monica

Chlorophyll and Superfoods
Post #1514 Pickle

Be a vegetarian by eating locally, getting acquainted with wild foods,
and sprouting, if you don't have much variety in your local
supermarkets.

Post #1515 Monica (with info from Austin on sustainable agriculture)

How do you 'know' that killing animals is wrong?
Post #1525 Monica

Meat=Genocide
Post #2497-2500 norral

Eating meat requires a suppression of natural compassion
Post #1529 Monica
Post #2496 Monica

Are plants in constant agony?
Post #1532 Monica
Post #1534 Icaro

Plants vs. animals for food
Post: #1542 Diana

On spirituality and meat-eating
Post: #1543 Namaste
Post: #1584 Pickle
Post: #1749 Pickle
Post: #1753 Diana
post: #1823 Pickle
post: #1935 Pablisimo
post: #1984 Diana
post: #2018 Diana
post: #2135 (includes stats on going veg) Monica
post: #2252 Pickle
post: #2343 Pickle

Definition of sentient
Post #2739 Diana

Health and meat-eating
Post #2649 Pickle
Post: #1604 Monica
Post: #1608 Pickle
Post: #1790 Monica
Post: #1793 Pickle

Avoiding uncomfortable subjects, such as meat-eating
Post: #1618 Namaste

Videos of animal awareness and commentaries on the subject of meat
Post: #1627 (Dog Rescues Kittens) Monica
Post: #1737 (Why love one but eat the other?) Monica
Post: #1761 (Study shows lab rats would rather free a friend than eat chocolate) Monica
Post: #1766 (pigs & hens remarkably intelligent!) Monica
Post: #1787 (Smart cows! And pigs are just like dogs!) Monica
post: #1818 (Not ready to go totally veg? Here are baby steps you can take to eat more compassionately...and a hilarious video of people buying 'fresh' meat) Monica
post: #1844 (elephants reunited) Monica
post: #1845 (orangutan mother and baby) Monica

But we really don't know what cows think. They can't talk to us. Maybe they want to be eaten!
post: #2066 (cows communicating) Monica

Compassion and animals
Post: #1645 Namaste
post: 1872 Austin
post: #2099 (resource to compare compassionate animal farming) Austin
post: #2334 (factory farms) Pablisimo

The connectedness of all things
Post: #1654 Diana

3D vs. 4D
Post: #1656 Monica
post: #2132 Monica

3D vs. 2D awareness
Post: #1660 Diana

Moving toward a plant-based diet
Post: #1663 Oceania
Post: #1670 Diana
post: #2143 Monica
post: #2232 (protein combos) Monica

What Jesus, Buddha, and other spiritual leaders and writers say about meat-eating
Post: #1680 Monica
post: #1864 Diana

Raw foods and enzymes
Post: #1701 Monica
Post: #1707 Pickle

The Native American way of meat-eating
Post: #1732 Diana
Post #2503 Monica

Accepting mainstream thought on nutrition
Post: #1755 Pickle

Decided to be vegetarian based on thread
Post: # 1756 Fr33dom

Raw Vegan info
post: #1995 Monica, Video of raw vegan body builder
post: #1798 Diana, raw vegan wrestler

Sustainability
post: #1809 (growing green with no animal products) Monica

Growing vegetable food
post: # 1811 Monica

The Inuit & their diet of meat
post: #1832 Diana
Post #85  Bring4th_Monica

Most crops grown to feed meat animals - highly inefficient - we could end starvation by feeding people instead of farm animals, + kill fewer plants too!
post: 2026 (80% of corn) Pickle

In response to criticism and vegetarians
post: #2301 Pablisimo

Q'uo on Suffering
Post #2379 Monica
Post #2382 Monica

Is it our task to provide negative catalyst to animals?
Post #2660 Pickle
Post #2843 Monica
Post #2847 Pickle
Post #2371 Diana

Mainstream Documentaries (NOT PETA) and real, verifiable statistics about how meat is produced - please watch these to get educated, if you wish to take responsibility for your choices
Post #2824 Monica
Post #2837 Monica
Post #2848 Monica
Post #2850 Monica

Working on Common Ground
Post #2860 Monica and βαθμιαίος

Acceptance and Compassion: Which is the key to polarizing STO? and...to the extent necessary for individual metabolism
Post #2876 Monica

More on guilt...and...Can eating meat be compassionate?
Post #2741 Monica

Some people need to eat meat, right? What does the medical establishment say? Is eating meat necessary? Can a vegetarian diet be adequate and healthy?
Post #2745 Monica
Post #2612-2620 Monica

America's Mad Cow Crisis
Post #2635 indolering

Compassion for others vs working on self / What's best for the animal vs what's best for self
Post #2386 Monica
Post #2395 Monica
Post #2659 Monica

It's not about controlling others...it's about ending oppression!
Post #2879 Monica
Post #2881 Monica
Post #2892 Diana
Post #2397 Monica
Post #2913 Monica

Raising your own chickens for eggs
Post #2488-2490 Austin

Famous Quotes
Post #2440 Monica

Baby Chick
Post #2442 Monica

EDIT: I have created a new thread, to be kept updated with any new discussions:
MEAT Master Index

---
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BrownEye, Horuseus, Patrick, Seed
06-22-2012, 06:49 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-22-2012, 06:52 PM by Monica.)
#4
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  Those of vegetarian seeking wouldn’t be following this understanding and making it their way of life and communicating so passionately if they didn’t feel it was a higher path. When a conviction is felt and perceived so strongly that one dedicates ones life to its principles, then one feels it be the best choice for the self.

Obviously, not everyone agrees that vegetarianism is the “best” or highest or most evolved choice. And we the moderators think that the center of this tension between the positions isn’t the notion of what’s best for the self, per se, but rather the tension arises when that notion moves into the territory of what’s best for you, the other self.

Respectfully, Gary, this doesn't represent what the vegetarians have been trying to convey. It has nothing to do with what's best for self, and even less to do with trying to tell others what's best for them.

(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  This is where the question moves deeper than “What should we eat?”

It also has nothing to do with what we 'should' eat. In fact, it isn't even about diet and health either, though those were side-topics that got covered in the original thread.

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06-22-2012, 07:11 PM,
#5
RE: In Regards to Eating Animals (meat II)
This must have taken a while to put together! I was actually getting ready to try and tackle the infamous thread, and a resource such as this is pretty indispensable compared to the daunting task of going through the whole thing. It's still a bit to go through, but I can start with the questions I want answered most. Thanks a bunch for the effort!
"The fool who persists in his folly will become wise."
-William Blake
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06-22-2012, 07:33 PM,
#6
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
My intent in this thread will be to understand what is still a mystery to me by asking questions exclusively. It is not my intent to convey my own opinions. With the hope that this exercise will prove a more fruitful experience than my last time. Smile

Thank you Gary for this forum.

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
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βαθμιαίος
06-22-2012, 09:53 PM,
#7
RE: In Regards to Eating Animals (meat II)
Are we using this current thread?

Or this one: http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=5065 ?

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
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06-23-2012, 08:55 AM,
#8
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
Whether you eat meat or not makes absolutely 0 difference at all. How you see it in your mind makes all the difference. If you enjoy meat, eat it. I'am probably the biggest meat eater on this forum as I'am also a bodybuilder and trust me (yourself) when I say it does not matter. There is no right or wrong, good or bad, do what you want to do. Quite simple.

Nothing wrong with discussing it as you guys are if you still need catalyst to understand. I think this will be the first and last time I enter the meat thread, I find the arguments extremely silly.
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drifting pages, Oldern
06-23-2012, 11:25 AM,
#9
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
I think I'll bring a haggis to Homecoming along with my vegetables Smile
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Ankh
06-23-2012, 01:12 PM,
#10
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-23-2012, 08:55 AM)Sagittarius Wrote:  Whether you eat meat or not makes absolutely 0 difference at all. How you see it in your mind makes all the difference.



I keep hearing that here, but if that was really the case why is the world getting so large and unhealthy? I am talking all aspects of food, not just meat. Obviously all of the unhealthy people "believe" what they eat is just fine. If it was all just in the mind, then what is the belief that makes a person gain weight? Or end up needed bypass surgery? Are these just imaginary scenarios that are "only in my mind"? Are you really just a figment of my imagination?

one who knows not, cares not.
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Monica
06-23-2012, 02:37 PM,
#11
Friendly conversation, reporting our shopping & diet.
Hi, "good eating" fans.

For us, the IMPORTANCEs we watch in our choices,
when we buy stuff are: it MUST be
1 = ORGANIC / BIOLOGICAL ! !
2 = Live animals are WELL treated/handled. . .and all. . .
3 = It does not come from too far away, buying local.
4 = Packaging is thoughtful, not too much, ecological.
5 = Any other ? . . .

We do it there:
http://www.avril.ca/en/

Blue skies.
Enjoy http://www.whatthebleep.com
It got me to "The Ra material" and in here !
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Bring4th_Plenum
06-23-2012, 03:28 PM,
#12
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-23-2012, 01:12 PM)Pickle Wrote:  Obviously all of the unhealthy people "believe" what they eat is just fine.

Do they?
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06-23-2012, 04:18 PM,
#13
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
I guess technically it is more accurate to say they do not believe it causes harm.

According to Spirit i am 40 lbs overweight at 5'8" 175lbs.

According to my Samoan 300lb+ relations i am so skinny as to appear unhealthy in their eyes.

Most people function on belief, the majority having a limited spectrum of belief created for them to choose from. Plugs right in with the concept of the veil even.
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06-23-2012, 05:54 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-23-2012, 05:57 PM by Oldern.)
#14
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-23-2012, 01:12 PM)Pickle Wrote:  I keep hearing that here, but if that was really the case why is the world getting so large and unhealthy? I am talking all aspects of food, not just meat. Obviously all of the unhealthy people "believe" what they eat is just fine. If it was all just in the mind, then what is the belief that makes a person gain weight? Or end up needed bypass surgery? Are these just imaginary scenarios that are "only in my mind"? Are you really just a figment of my imagination?

I do not believe the world is getting so large and unhealthy because of meat eating.

I do believe however, that eating more meat (and eating the kind of meat that the majority of meat-eaters do: toxified, full with emotional burden, washed out of blood but not really managed and nurtured carefully) is a result of the emotional state of our population.

Therefore, tackling the meat eating aspect of the population is - to me, still - exactly like going to try and cure influenza by suggesting that you blow your noise every five minutes, carefully. It might alleviate some of your issues, but it leaves the core problems untouched.

I believe that if we would go on and respect each other more and more, if we would use our money really as something that is a tool of respect (i.e. looking for "cheapest stuff" == "I do not care about those that make it, and by not honoring what they do, I accept and understand that they will do the same about the product they are handing down to me, in exchange", and this is just one example), and then as a result of a more peaceful everyday life, people all around the world will have less issues that they need to process through the act of eating, and the consumption of meat, junk food and other toxic materials would lower drastically.

At the end of the day, I cant remember any kind of material that stick to me or what I accepted and adapted to fully without being perfectly open and ready for it in the first place. If I would still eat meat, there is nothing that a vegetarian could show me that would change my mind. Being able to realize how that meat is made is a conscious decision, where we remember the image of tortured animals and recognize them as the source when we look at those clean meat pieces in the market.

(// Also, I think everyone does understand when a food is unhealthy. One can feel that, even if the current vehicle being inhabited is a slowed-down engine due to various emotional and physical reasons. The thing is that they just do not care. They eat those things because of the positive feedback they brain/heart/mind gets out of it, even if they know that it is not optimal. Same thing why smokers smoke: the initial feeling of "this is bull****" is overshadowed by finally being able to talk to that girl/boy outside the school for a few minutes every day. The social aspect becomes more important than the physical part of the process itself.)
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06-23-2012, 06:36 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-23-2012, 06:40 PM by BrownEye.)
#15
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
Umm.........consciously being aware of where my food comes from or what flesh had gone through before it got to me would obviously make me choose something else to invite into my consciousness.

It looks like you are saying the health/weight problems are based upon a general lack of consciousness or conscious awareness?
I do happen to find value in Ra's words. It was said to attempt to move towards eating better food, not just believe in the food that was habitually chosen.
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06-23-2012, 06:47 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-23-2012, 06:49 PM by Oldern.)
#16
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-23-2012, 06:36 PM)Pickle Wrote:  Umm.........consciously being aware of where my food comes from or what flesh had gone through before it got to me would obviously make me choose something else to invite into my consciousness.

Maybe I did not express myself clearly enough, but that is exactly my point. Once I made a conscious connection between the suffering animals, the meat industry and the seemingly clean meat in the stores, I was able to make a decision that it is not what I want to eat. Many people do not to this, but not out of dumbness. So:

Quote:It looks like you are saying the health/weight problems are based upon a general lack of consciousness or conscious awareness?

I think it is the result of a very heavy learning process - this reality, especially at this crucial moment, can offer very heavy and very intense catalysts. One being born into this age gets out of balance from basically day 1. Unclean food, tv programming, the left/right-them/us mentality, the "do not let others close to you or they will just hurt you" programmings, all the arguments...the result is a being that is being bombarded in multiple fronts. Food, I belive, is one of these fronts. There is consciousness behind those decisions that say "let us eat some snacks", but that consciousness does not care about the body itself, and does not respect it.

I am sure you have met many people who believe that "everything is harmful anyway, we will just have to survive as much as possible, and enjoy it while it lasts.". For some, the body is something that is to be abused (sexually, energetically, existentially), and yes, there is not much conscious thought behind the eating process other than maybe the need for exotic/heavy/interesting taste in their mouth.

For others, (and that is another topic for another day), eating is an escape mechanism. They eat a lot because they feel like that is the only thing left to them. They want more control over their life, but cant seemingly get it. Catalysts, however, stuck, so the overweight problems usually result in less control over one's own body, so the problem still needs to be dealt with, one way or another. And this type of eating problem can persist with vegetarians as well, very easily.
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06-23-2012, 06:49 PM,
#17
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-23-2012, 01:12 PM)Pickle Wrote:  
(06-23-2012, 08:55 AM)Sagittarius Wrote:  Whether you eat meat or not makes absolutely 0 difference at all. How you see it in your mind makes all the difference.



I keep hearing that here, but if that was really the case why is the world getting so large and unhealthy? I am talking all aspects of food, not just meat. Obviously all of the unhealthy people "believe" what they eat is just fine. If it was all just in the mind, then what is the belief that makes a person gain weight? Or end up needed bypass surgery? Are these just imaginary scenarios that are "only in my mind"? Are you really just a figment of my imagination?

Well I can tell you for me personally, my health has always been the same no matter what I eat. f*** I smoke as well and my throat chakra activates fine, I mean I can feel it buzzing right now.And yes, as you are a figment in mine.

I plan to go from eating everything to not needing to eat anything.

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06-24-2012, 07:49 PM,
#18
RE: In Regards to Eating Animals (meat II)
I didn't see this anywhere in the list, but I am curious, what about plants that eat meat, like venus fly traps?

http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/kids/stories/animalsnature/meat-eating-plants/
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06-24-2012, 09:18 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-26-2012, 08:36 PM by Patrick.)
#19
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
*deleted*

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
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Steppingfeet
06-24-2012, 09:24 PM,
#20
RE: In Regards to Eating Animals (meat II)
Note: We just discovered that there were some gaps in the index. So I just updated it to fill in 1 of the missing gaps. We will edit it again in the next few days.
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06-24-2012, 10:36 PM,
#21
RE: In Regards to Eating Animals (meat II)
(06-24-2012, 07:49 PM)TheEternal Wrote:  I didn't see this anywhere in the list, but I am curious, what about plants that eat meat, like venus fly traps?

http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/kids/stories/animalsnature/meat-eating-plants/

There is something about that in one of Pablísimo's posts in the old meat thread.

Pablísimo Wrote:That is, there are many animals that kill for every meal, but there is no darkness in this act for they are merely following their instincts. By the same token, there are many other animals that are vegetarian by nature, but they deserve no praise for this for they did not choose this path, either. You also see animals that devote themselves to one mate by instinct and others that breed in a random fashion with hundreds of partners over time. Some animals band together in packs, some remain solitary. Some are peaceful by instinct, others aggressive. However, these behaviors are directed by instinct and genetics, not choice.
"A mountain holds an echo deep inside. That's how I hold your voice."
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06-25-2012, 11:56 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-25-2012, 11:57 AM by Steppingfeet.)
#22
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_GLB Wrote:  Personally this author has resolved to eat only meat that is humanely raised as a result of information presented in this thread

(06-22-2012, 03:21 PM)Pickle Wrote:  So, a realized moment of growth or change?Tongue
Sounds like the thread worked some magic LoL!

All of the above. Smile

I didn't gain any understanding that would indicate eating animal flesh is, in and of itself, inherently depolarizing, or less spiritually evolved, or otherwise acts to retard the process of consciousness evolution.

What I did gain was increased awareness; awareness of the *unnecessary* cruelty inflicted upon animals in our current systems of animal slaughter. And in response I determined that I wanted neither to participate in nor perpetuate that particular system. I feel that sentient creatures should not needlessly suffer and ought to be granted greater protection.

So, as verifying whether or not meat was humanely slaughtered is difficult in most cases - often because it's not humanely slaughtered - my meat consumption has been greatly reduced since making this commitment. Only once have I deviated from this self-imposed rule of life.

Love/Light, Unity, GLB

Explanation by the tongue makes most things clear, but love unexplained is clearer. - Rumi
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06-25-2012, 07:04 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-25-2012, 10:50 PM by Monica.)
#23
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  Those of vegetarian orientation have a conviction. Their conviction is, *in general*, that it is better not to consume or slaughter animal flesh, and not to contribute the self's personal energies to the system of that consumption..

Gary, you did say your accounting was "imperfect" but I must comment that I think attempting to summarize the point of view of another person, especially when the other person has a directly opposite point of view, is rarely successful, no matter how well-intentioned the effort is.

This above statement of yours, which clearly was intended to convey the vegetarian conviction, implies the exact opposite of what we have been trying to explain for 3 years: that in fact we do not consider our path "better" but actually don't have any sort of judgment on it as a path per se, and furthermore, don't even consider it to be about a "path" at all!

We have been trying to convey that it's not about a path...not about being superior or inferior...it's not even about US at all!!! We've been trying, unsuccessfully, to shift the focus away from "what is the best path for me" and "me me me" altogether, to a conversation about...the victims.

The above statement is still about what's the "best path" as in, what will promote the best polarization, etc. but to be thinking about the benefits to self in terms of polarization and the karmic repercussions of contributing to the meat industry, is still focusing on self.

(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  Much in the way that most if not all of us feel that compassion is more evolved than hatred, humility more evolved than pride, spiritual seeking more evolved than dogmatic religious indoctrination, and iPods more evolved than 8-tracks, the vegetarians' is an unbending certainty that the path of vegetarianism is more evolved than the path of meat eating. The vegetarians' reasons rest principally on the compassion they feel for the suffering of second-density creatures, along with the benefits they feel that vegetarianism brings for the health of the planet’s biosphere and the health of individuals, among perhaps other reasons.

Respectfully, you seem to be trying to condense 3 years' and 148 pages' worth of discussion, into a couple of paragraphs. That doesn't work for me, because so much has been lost, over-simplified, and even misrepresented. The reasons behind our convictions have been reduced to a simple "my path vs your path" similar to "I am Buddhist you are Pagan which is more evolved?" when we don't even consider it to be a "path" at all but something that can be included in any path: compassion.

It's not "similar to compassion" but IS about compassion. That's it. Nothing else. Benefits to one's health, benefits to the planet, etc. are bonuses, but the driving force behind our view is compassion for other-selves, period. Not about US. Not about which "path" is move evolved, which is just ego talking. It's like, when someone is serving an other-self because they want to polarize STO, that's not really STO is it? Likewise, when one talks about being a vegetarian because it's a "more evolved path" then it's being done for self, and still misses the point: It's about compassion.

(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  Those of vegetarian seeking wouldn’t be following this understanding and making it their way of life and communicating so passionately if they didn’t feel it was a higher path. When a conviction is felt and perceived so strongly that one dedicates ones life to its principles, then one feels it be the best choice for the self.

This statement is a gross misrepresentation of what we have tried so hard to communicate. So much so, that I don't even know where to begin! This is precisely why I don't like the idea of summarizing other people's points at all. There is simply no way for me to point out what's inaccurate about your statements, other than directing people to the original thread and inviting them to read it, if they wish to understand the nature of our convictions. But I will say here that you have missed it, despite your good intentions to be fair and represent our viewpoint. Once again it has become about self.

(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  Obviously, not everyone agrees that vegetarianism is the “best” or highest or most evolved choice. And we the moderators think that the center of this tension between the positions isn’t the notion of what’s best for the self, per se, but rather the tension arises when that notion moves into the territory of what’s best for you, the other self.

If that is the center of the tension, then it's based on gross misunderstanding. You seem to be implying that the vegetarians have imposed our path onto others. First of all, it's not a path; it's an attribute. Compassion is an attribute that can fit into any path.

Secondly, to imply that the vegetarians have been trying to impose our "path" onto others, is just reinforcing the gross misunderstanding that has plagued the thread all this time. We've never tried to impose anything on anyone. We have only shared the reasons for our convictions, and have attempted to always redirect the conversation away from us and towards the animals. The animals. That's what it's about. NOT us. The animals.

Some of those who eat meat felt offended by the very fact that we have convictions at all. It's not about imposing a path on someone like imposing a religion; it's about the concept of compassion. Our focus has always been on the animals, whereas the focus of the meat-eaters has, for the most part, been on the self.

That is the difference. And it was displayed right here, with your post.

(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  This is where the question moves deeper than “What should we eat?” and into “What is the role of activism and the activist in light of a philosophy which values free will above all else while embracing and accepting all with the love of the Creator?” And by activism we in general mean the individual or organized effort to create changes in culture and society through the advocacy of policies, ideas, and actions.

Again, respectfully, this is a misrepresentation. We have gone out of our way to reassure the meat-eaters that we aren't trying to change legislation. And even if we were, what would be the point of that? As if we had a snowball's chance in hell of winning? The idea of trying to legislate something like that is pointless, and to imply that this is what we were trying to do, is simply inaccurate. If anything, we have distanced ourselves from those who do use militant force such as breaking into medical labs etc. even though I personally can understand what drives them. No one ever complained about activists setting human slaves free or changing the slavery laws! What we have here is speciesism. So if someday it's illegal to kill an animal for food, sure, I'll rejoice! But I have no illusions that that day will arrive any time soon, so to imply that is how we operate, is simply a gross misrepresentation.

This is the crux of the matter:
(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  • Whether respecting the free will of another means to not take action when the other is committing what one feels to be a grievous, free-will infringing crime

This is addressed here:

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=239&pid=84128#pid84128

(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  • How ones convictions, which desperately want other people to make changes, relate to the need to respect the free will of another upon the positive path

We don't "desperately want other people to make changes." Speaking for myself, that kind of thinking doesn't even enter my mind! I honestly never, ever think "Oh I wish Gary would become a vegetarian" much less desperately wish it. Nope, not at all.

I'd like to see the oppression of animals end, the same way I'd like to see starvation end, or wars end. The difference is that we have a lot more power to end oppression of animals than we do some of those other atrocities, and my biggest challenge is wrapping my brain around how otherwise spiritually-oriented people could miss something so obvious as this. But, that's my problem, not yours. I've never made it yours. I have no attachment to whether you or anyone else eats animals. My only task is to do what I can to provide information, in answer to the call of the animals. What others do with that information is up to them. I don't carry the burden of the whole world on my shoulders, and desperation doesn't enter into the equation at all. I do feel a sense of urgency, and marvel that others could be so oblivious to the call of the animals. That is what drives me. Not desperation, not attachment, not judgment. Just doing what I can to answer the call in any way I can. That's it.

I think it needs to be explicitly stated that expressing one's convictions is not disrespecting another person.

Example: Another member told me, via pm, that I had been disrespectful in the meat thread. I asked this person to point out what I had said that was disrespectful. The person replied with this quote of mine:

Eating meat contributes to the suffering and death of animals.

I was stunned. How, just how, is this statement judgmental and disrespectful? I really want to know!

This statement is akin to saying:

Driving a car contributes to pollution.

These are facts. How is stating a fact disrespectful?

It is a fact that eating meat contributes to the death of the animal. Were it not killed, it could not be eaten. And even so-called 'humanely raised' animals suffer, though not nearly as much as the factory-farmed animals. And I seriously doubt that most of the meat-eaters never ever ever eat in a restaurant, and if they do, they are getting factory-farmed meat.

Therefore, it is simply a fact to say that Eating meat contributes to the suffering and death of animals.

Driving a car contributes to pollution. This is fact. Yet, I still drive a car! Why? I justify it because I need to do xyz and there's no way to function in life without a car blah blah blah, but that doesn't change the fact that every time I get in my car, I am contributing to air pollution.

Does this make me less evolved? Less spiritual? That is irrelevant because I never ever said that anyone driving a car is less spiritual, just as I never ever said someone who eats meat is less spiritual. In fact, we did the opposite: Read the posts under the headings "Is vegetarianism a spiritual litmus test?" and "Is vegetarianism a ticket to 4D?" and you will see that we went out of our way to NOT judge anyone!

So to be told that stating a simple fact is disrespectful, is an indication of just how our statements are being perceived. If even such a simple statement of fact can be construed as disrespectful and judgmental, then I think a discussion about what respect IS, is in order.

(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  Whether we can accept/love another member in light of viewpoints which incense us

We already know the answer to that and it's a resounding NO. The answer should be YES but that's not what happened at all. Towards the end of the thread, I posted a heartfelt plea to the meat-eaters, asking them if any of them had developed more compassion towards the vegetarian, as a result of this discussion, and even almost begged for some compassion, even if they couldn't understand.

I got a whopping ONE response, and it was privately.

So no, unfortunately, it seems that the vegetarians asking for a bit of compassion, is asking too much. We learned that the only way we would ever be accepted was if we gave up our convictions.

All this talk about acceptance in the Law of One? Apparently it only applies to those who agree. That is what I observed.

(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  Whether we can take responsibility for our own emotional state[/list]

This is good. Right now, I take full responsibility for my present emotional state, which is incredulity and dismay at how this whole issue has unfolded. I also take full responsibility for my difficulty in accepting those who give lip service to acceptance but do not accept those with different viewpoints, and even see fit to complain about them.

I am working on accepting those who lack acceptance. It's a challenge, sort of like being tolerant of those who are intolerant.

(06-19-2012, 03:29 PM)Bring4th_Admin Wrote:  We feel that it merges the individual with their chosen belief to say “vegetarian” or “meat-eater”, and limits the individual to a pigeonholed identity to the extent that one begins relating to the other as a vegetarian or as an eater of meat, rather than a soul with vegetarian convictions, or a soul with meat-eating tendencies.

As Pablisimo so eloquently pointed out, we are each far more than this single choice. However, for purposes of this particular discussion, the terms are serving only to differentiate between the viewpoints and aren't intended to pigeonhole anyone. I know that you, Gary, are far more than just "a person who eats meat" for example.

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06-25-2012, 10:11 PM,
#24
Lightbulb  RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
.
These entries by Pickle are so good that I thought I should bring them up once more. Chlorophyll is such an amazing, magical substance, and may hold the key evidence as to why a plant-based diet is ideal for human beings.

Contemplate the alchemical magic of changing sunlight into the ideal food which so closely resembles human blood. That this should be so is nothing short of miraculous.

Quote:Chlorophyll is the green pigment of plants which initiates photosynthesis by absorbing energy from sunlight and transferring this energy to other molecules. Chlorophyll causes carbon dioxide and water to combine into glucose. Chlorophyll contains enzymes and superoxide dismutase, a copper-containing protein found in mature red blood cells. This enzyme decomposes superoxide radicals in the body into a more manageable form, thereby helping to slow down the aging process. http://www.springboard4health.com/notebo...phyll.html

It was little more than a century ago that chemists isolated a green pigment from the green leaves of plants that they called chlorophyll. It wasn't until 1913 that a German chemist, Dr. Richard Willstatter, correctly identified the true function of chlorophyll. Dr. Willstatter pointed out that all energy comes from the sun and that green plants alone possess the secret of how to capture this solar energy. Out of this process stems much of what we know as life and growth. Man and animals consume this energy from plants as food.

.....we are told that chlorophyll and green vegetables control the calcium levels in our body. He suggests that women replenish their calcium by consuming more green vegetables and supplementing with chlorophyll since menstrual blood contains up to 40 times more calcium than our normal blood. He also noted that vitamin K was originally discovered in alfalfa juice and that chlorophyll is one of the richest known sources of this vitamin.
http://proliberty.com/observer/20011010.htm


Chlorophyll is essential for healthy blood and the creation of healthy protein. Just like the in the elephant, the rhinoceros and the gorilla, healthy protein is made from healthy blood which is made from chlorophyll. It is also very anti-fungal.

Chlorella is a complete protein source. It is also packed with calories, fat, and vitamins. At its onset, Chlorella was suggested as a "dirt-cheap" protein supplement to the human diet. Chlorella advocates sometimes focus on other supposed health benefits of the algae, such as claims of weight control, cancer prevention, and immune system support.

Great stuff, Pickle. This should be required reading for all elementary schools.
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06-25-2012, 10:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-25-2012, 10:31 PM by Eddie.)
#25
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
Ignore post.

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BrownEye
06-25-2012, 10:35 PM,
#26
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-25-2012, 10:26 PM)Eddie Wrote:  Ignore post.

Thanks for the laughTongue
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vitamin-k-000343.htm
one who knows not, cares not.
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06-25-2012, 10:35 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2012, 12:17 AM by indolering.)
#27
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
.
Monica, after reading your post above, I would like to make a couple of statements about my own convictions....

I do feel that a plant-based diet is superior to one which includes animals. I see a future in which humanity consciously chooses, more and more, to eat a plant-based diet because it lends itself to the qualities of a spiritualized life, the most important type of development for a human being. Not only does a diet which includes animals increase one's karmic obligations, the vibrations imparted by those foodstuffs tend to drag down one's sensitivity and one's spiritual aspirations. These are my conclusions and not necessarily anyone else's. But I do believe there are important precedents for these convictions, especially in some of the Eastern philosophies.

Compassion for animals, of course, is another primary motivation for a vegan diet. Not only compassion but a realization that men do not have the right to exploit the animal kingdom for frivolous reasons. If you're an eskimo and depend on fish, fine. God understands. Most of us have choice.

edit: One more thing...I recently learned of a vegan cult of sorts in the Los Angeles area that seems a bit extreme in their zeal to convert people to meatless diets. It takes all kinds, I guess, and aggressive vegetarians are certainly a minority, but there's a few out there which give us a bad name....
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06-26-2012, 10:26 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-26-2012, 10:28 AM by Steppingfeet.)
#28
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-25-2012, 07:04 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:  Gary, you did say your accounting was "imperfect" but I must comment that I think attempting to summarize the point of view of another person, especially when the other person has a directly opposite point of view, is rarely successful, no matter how well-intentioned the effort is.

Okay Monica. Thank you for the many clarifications of your own point of view, and the point of view of others who vibrate similarly in this regard. Hopefully this will offer a fuller understanding to anyone reading this thread.

By the way, you addressed me specifically in your reply to the Bring4th_Admin post. The Directory for this website lists the Bring4th_Admin account as "a social memory complex consisting of every great mind that ever lived". True story.

Love/Light, GLB

Explanation by the tongue makes most things clear, but love unexplained is clearer. - Rumi
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06-26-2012, 08:39 PM,
#29
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
I would like to know more about the ways we could do away completely with animal products.

What sort of supplements are needed ? Or are there foodstuff that can fully replace all animal products for all humans ?

Thank you in advance my friends. Smile

"You are not here to fix it... You are here to love it." ~ Q'uo
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Confused
06-26-2012, 09:16 PM,
#30
RE: A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet
(06-26-2012, 08:39 PM)Patrick Wrote:  I would like to know more about the ways we could do away completely with animal products.

What sort of supplements are needed ? Or are there foodstuff that can fully replace all animal products for all humans ?

Thank you in advance my friends. Smile

http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=519

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