Bring4th

(08-10-2014, 12:24 AM)Folk-love Wrote: [ -> ]Does unconditional love actually exist? I don't mean to be rude, but the love talked about in this thread and in the world seems to always come with some conditions. I find it hard to believe that someone can love another without ANY conditions.

In my opinion, it exists at some point in our journey, even if that point comes after quite a bit of struggle. Though, from a practical perspective, many claim that yeah they already have it. But then, one life in a third world country will change their perspective. Get caught up in a civil war, tortured in captivity and then lets see, who still manages to have that unconditional love. If someone claims that they have complete unconditional love on Earth as of now, I would seriously doubt that claim. A little change in environment will change such claims very fast.

Though, there are souls, who may seem to be very close. When you meet them, you will know it. In my opinion, such souls will also be so humble that they would not see any point in laying a claim to their unconditional love.

Also, if you come across good quality weed, you can always feel/claim unconditional love, but more likely than not it will be a transient claim.

*often envisions him laughing in blissful delirium in a torture situation*

Torture can be very empowering if you accept it as a service so you don't collapse on yourself. The key is to not see it as torture but as a fun ride through sampling varying pains. Make sure the laughter is really loud. They'll stop faster.

You'll come out of it wanting to pat the torturer on the back and taking him out for a beer.

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A choice to see pain as pleasure towards further pleasure is all that you need to prevent becoming a Reek in Game of Thrones. Never give up on life.

(08-11-2014, 04:24 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]*often envisions him laughing in blissful delirium in a torture situation*

Torture can be very empowering if you accept it as a service so you don't collapse on yourself. The key is to not see it as torture but as a fun ride through sampling varying pains. Make sure the laughter is really loud. They'll stop faster.

You'll come out of it wanting to pat the torturer on the back and taking him out for a beer.

---

A choice to see pain as pleasure towards further pleasure is all that you need to prevent becoming a Reek in Game of Thrones. Never give up on life.

I rarely post opposing views on Bring4th... but I completely disagree with you.

It's my understanding that laughing like a maniac while going through torture is a symptom of a mind collapsing on itself and, in an attempt to cope, the body expresses its confusion through laughter. The laughter is in my understanding only a symptom of something happening much deeper in the mind of the tortured person.

Although I will always support and encourage the acceptance of pain (mental, physical or emotional), attempting to warp one's mind into seeing it as pleasurable is, in my opinion, a distortion onto itself. Willing oneself to not only accept a painful situation but go through it without consideration and acknowledgement for the pain felt, going as far as warping one's mind to convince the self the pain is pleasure, is in fact an act which bears little to no compassion for the self. In other words, such person would be raping themselves, building upon the work of the torturer and taking it a step further.

I would personally recommend great caution with using the will in such manner. It is my understanding that it can be self-destructive. Pain is not meant to be felt as pleasure by the body; it is a signal that one is unable to accept a situation at the moment. That being said, pain can be accepted as it is and loved for what it is, with the hope and faith one can someday accept the act which is being performed. In any case, I would recommend crying over laughter; it is a passive form of acceptance which carries acknowledgement and compassion for the self's suffering.

It is my understanding that a balanced individual who has accepted a situation will be calm and at peace with said event; not laughing or feeling a great elation (pleasure).

The goal of the laughter would be peace in the very end and preventing trauma due to the great acceptance and complete consciousness of the pain. How is this not effective?

(08-11-2014, 05:37 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]The goal of the laughter would be peace in the very end and preventing trauma due to the great acceptance and complete consciousness of the pain. How is this not effective?

As I wrote, the laughter is, in my understanding, merely a symptom; the body produces it in an attempt to cope. Attempt laughing out loud right now out of the blue; how does it sound? You will most likely not be able to keep it up for very long. Laughter is produced when our mind is amused/confused. Consider the following; what kind of confusion and elation would you have to go through to laugh out loud while someone is disrespecting you, destroying your body? It is my belief that focusing on the elation while you are being hurt without consent is no different than taking pleasure in destroying oneself.

Alternative example: How would you feel about someone cutting their wrists open with a razor blade while laughing with glee? I see little difference between that situation and feeling pleasure while one is under heavy torture. I believe it carries a certain hatred for the body and a desire to falsify it. Attempting to reproduce such effect willingly is, in my opinion, a very confused move.

I do not disagree: It is an attempt to cope. I believe if this coping method is used with an inevitable balanced acceptance of desiring pleasure and peace then there is no issue.

There can only be confusion when the creation attempts to falsify your existence. The positive polarity attempts to include this into itself by embracing the confusion and allowing it to exist while still desiring your own existence. This is not for the faint of heart, it could lead to collapse if one does not accept their truest desires of peaceful existence but I believe this can work for the entity desiring greater balances of will/wisdom and compassion.

(08-11-2014, 05:47 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]I believe this can work for the entity desiring greater balances of will/wisdom and compassion.

I personally see an over-balance of will and very little compassion for the self in this act. I'll just leave it at that

I believe it is lack of compassion for the self if you let it be traumatized by an act. I simply advocate non-trauma at the risk of possibly enjoying trauma. I think that is a far better alternative than a knot of fear that is harder to untie.

(08-11-2014, 04:24 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]*often envisions him laughing in blissful delirium in a torture situation*

Torture can be very empowering if you accept it as a service so you don't collapse on yourself. The key is to not see it as torture but as a fun ride through sampling varying pains. Make sure the laughter is really loud. They'll stop faster.

You'll come out of it wanting to pat the torturer on the back and taking him out for a beer.

---

A choice to see pain as pleasure towards further pleasure is all that you need to prevent becoming a Reek in Game of Thrones. Never give up on life.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article165458.html

Adonai, this article talks specifically about organized research that has been done to make sure that there will not be much laughing.

War, torture and brutality is a beautiful and equally sacramental part of the creation and can be loved as such.

Specifically, the Bilderman method. Whose primary goal is not even to get information, but go beyond all the defenses of consciousness. I don't know if you have ever heard these names, but in Punjab and Kashmir in India, the military forces did so much torture in 80s and 90s that after a while getting information was not a primary goal for them. It was a wild, random game, where some senior officers were specifically looking for guys, who were resisting torture through laughing, passive resistance, silence etc. Then they would mess with them not for information, not even to turn them into informants, but simply to show them that unless a consciousness switches off, or is taken to some other space, it cannot resist physical torture. Now, they have well researched methods, plenty of time, and number of ways to keep you alive.

So they would mess with the person further? How could one with a great amount of love not possibly be able to balance themselves again?

(08-11-2014, 05:50 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]I believe it is lack of compassion for the self if you let it be traumatized by an act. I simply advocate non-trauma at the risk of possibly enjoying trauma. I think that is a far better alternative than a knot of fear that is harder to untie.

Enjoying trauma isn't the only want to deal with trauma. It's not either or situation - it's not you either enjoy it or you become knotted in fear.

Acceptance doesn't require enjoyment. Understanding and faith are the primary methods of acceptance, in my opinion.

(08-11-2014, 06:34 PM)Adonai One Wrote: [ -> ]So they would mess with the person further? How could one with a great amount of love not possibly be able to balance themselves again?

Because, after a while, it was simply a battle of wills. And, I don't wanna go into details of the physical aspects of the torture they employed, but safe to say that it was not really a fair battle. So, there were some torturers, who did it for pure pleasure.

Though, the way I see it, wisest thing is to agree to everything, and once your consciousness is in a balanced state again (which may very well be after death) then restore your principles and will.

I actually like your approach, but I would not want want it to be tested in practical settings. Still, a courageous way of looking at things.

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Adonai, you may find this story interesting that happened to a cousin of a family friend.

In early 90s, bunch of young guys were rounded up by Punjab police in Hoshiarpur district. Punjab is in India btw. "Rounding up" was a phrase used by military - it meant that, wherever an incident happened, they would arrest all the young males in that area. even if you were simply out for buying milk. In this case, the protagonist alongwith a few dozen young guys was taken to a torture center. That torture center was run by an officer, who was a legend in counter-insurgency operations. Known for his brutality, and his habit of torturing someone on a daily basis.

So, the guys are rounded up, taken to the torture center, and made to wait. In the evening, the senior officer shows up, and his underlings lined up all the young guys, so he could interrogate them. He walks over to the protagonist, and targets him specifically, because even though protagonist was innocent, his cousin's family was a known militant sympathizer. The legendary torturer asks him about the guns that suspected militants had hidden in that area.

The protagonist had heard stories from other survivors, and knew what was coming. So he says - I know, where the weapons are. I will tell you about them, but first I need a warm glass of milk. A glass of milk was brought for the protagonist, who immediately drank it. Then, he said to the senior officer - "Now, I will tell you where the weapons are, but first convince me that I just drank a glass of milk. If I confess to drinking that glass of milk, I will show you where the weapons are buried, and confess to whatever else you want. If you can't even get me to confess to drinking a glass of milk, how are you going to get me to confess to hiding weapons."

They beat him up throughout that night, and the next day - Did you drink milk? Finally, they got so mad that the officer had the protagonist shot dead the next day. In their folk culture, milk is symbolic too - as in integrity means staying true to your mother's milk. That kinda stuff. So yeah, he died the next day. The story ends.

And funny thing is from a cold perspective the protagonist won in a very practical manner. Why?

Because by making the senior torturer mad, he got himself killed and his spirit was free within a day. Otherwise, based on the history of that torture center, the protagonist would have been tortured for days, then either killed in a fake encounter, or kept in prison for decades. Once you were in the eyes of the legendary torturer, it was well known that you would never see your family again, and he would torture you for months.

Some people will disagree with protagonist's approach, but thats what happened. This is more of a folk tale too. As in, even if the actual story was little different, this kind of stuff happened to thousands of guys in that part of the world. There was another story of a guy, who resisted torture with so much fortitude that finally the officers dressed him up in a bride's dress to humiliate his very core. But, he maintained his fortitude, faith, whatever you wanna call it, and he was shot dead soon after. There is even a picture of this guy somewhere on the web that I saw few years ago. He was a Sikh, so basically the picture shows a long haired guy, dressed in Indian bridal dress lying dead in a government prison.

Dang it, just thinking about these stories is depressing, but I like your approach Adonai. I also like the idea of getting torturers mad, so they kill you soon. However that is the thing with Bilderman method, and various other well researched torture techniques. They will not let you die. They have time, resources and patience on their hands.

This is depressing man. Wrong thread that I posted in. Back to mirrors, catalyst, meditating and so on.