Vegans Must be Stopped!

[Plenum]

Sorry I'm late guys just got back from KFC, what did I miss?
Oh...

lol.

infringeing offence sir!

[Diana]

Sorry I'm late guys just got back from KFC, what did I miss?
Oh...

Does the above comment remind anyone of another thread that was closed down?

Not to sound dramatic, but in my straightforward way (Zen, if you know anything at all about my posts they have certainly been that), I imagine that you are just trying to inject a little humor here Aloysius, in the vein of the above-mentioned website; but do you have any idea what suffering and torture the likes of KFC cause to chickens? So, why then, is this funny?

And how on earth, can taste buds and what humans "prefer" to eat because it "tastes good"--which by the way is not good for their health--be more important than a being's life and treatment so horrendous and cruel? Yes, free will must be respected. And this is a huge challenge considering what humans are capable of. Consider Nazi Germany. Free will was played out there, but can anyone look upon footage of those poor tortured people and not experience heartbreak?

A being is a life form, and though humans tend to think themselves above everything else, a lesson from the idiocies in history is applicable here. Humans are not the only life in the universe with everything put here for their use alone.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Sorry I'm late guys just got back from KFC, what did I miss?
Oh...

While I understand your comment was an attempt at humor, please refrain from making remarks intended to rouse emotion especially in regards to a discussion which is already emotionally charged such as this one. It's inflammatory and only serves to increase separation within the discussion.

[xise]

Its horrible how chickens in most corporate farms, including KFC suppliers, have their beaks cut off to prevent them from pecking other chickens due to overcrowding. It's inhumane disfigurement, all in the name of profit and efficiency.

[Monica]

Its horrible how chickens in most corporate farms, including KFC suppliers, have their beaks cut off to prevent them from pecking other chickens due to overcrowding. It's inhumane disfigurement, all in the name of profit and efficiency.

And that's only 1 among many atrocities inflicted upon chickens.

Chickens are sociable, intelligent animals. Studies have shown that they are able to solve problems and, unlike young children, grasp the permanence of objects (they understand that objects taken from view continue to exist). Their natural behavior includes living in stable groups of 30 or so that employ a social hierarchy (the origin of the term pecking order). The chickens in a given flock all know and recognize each other. Their communal activities include scratching and pecking for food, running around, taking dust baths, and resting. They crow and chirp in a range of some 30 meaningful vocalizations. Chickens also have a strong urge to nest, and, like most animal mothers, they nurture their young attentively and affectionately. A hen carefully tends her eggs in the nest, turning them up to five times an hour and clucking to them; remarkably, the unborn chicks chirp back to her and to one another. People who have had opportunities to become acquainted with chickens—for example, while growing up on farms or visiting farm-animal sanctuaries—often remark on how affectionate chickens can be and how they seem to have their own personalities...

...The birds raised for meat, called “broilers” by the industry, are the product of genetic manipulation that has drastically increased breast and thigh tissue (the most popular parts of the animal) and produced a very rapid growth rate that outstrips the development of their legs and organs. Broilers raised in this way are supposed to reach “slaughter weight” at just six or seven weeks of age, but the death toll is very high. The growth of abnormally heavy bodies causes crippling and painful skeletal deformities, and the overburdening of the birds’ underdeveloped cardiopulmonary systems often causes congestive heart failure before they are six weeks old. Some broiler chickens who do not succumb to these problems still die of thirst, because they are physically unable to even reach the water nozzles in their sheds. Other common causes of death pre-slaughter are heat prostration, cancer—in an animal less than seven weeks old—and infectious diseases.

Broiler-chicken facilities tend to be extremely overcrowded, with tens of thousands of birds crammed into a single closed broiler house. Each chicken is given less than a square foot of space, so hardly any floor is actually visible. The birds are unable to roam, to scratch, or, indeed, to avoid each other at all. Their instinct to live in a hierarchical community is thwarted, and social tension results. Chickens living in these stressful conditions will peck and fight with each other, which has led chicken producers to the “solution” of debeaking chicks shortly after they hatch in order to minimize damage. This debeaking process, like much else in factory farming, is run assembly-line fashion, without anesthesia; the chicks are placed beak-first into an apparatus that quickly cuts the tips off the beaks with a hot blade.

It is impossible, in such an atmosphere, to maintain health and cleanliness. The chickens’ excretions pile up, and the resulting ammonia fumes become so strong that they burn the birds’ eyes, and blindness results. Reports from observers say that birds with “ammonia burn” rub their eyes with their wings and emit cries of pain. Other health problems include the proliferation of Salmonella bacteria, which can remain on the slaughtered birds and so frequently cause threats to human health that special chicken-meat handling practices are invariably recommended by health authorities.

Once the chickens have attained slaughter weight, they are loaded into crowded trucks that offer no protection from extreme temperatures, and many birds die as they are shipped to processing facilities. The most efficient of these facilities kill some 8,400 birds per hour, the result of a high degree of automation. Machines run by humans automatically stun the birds, cut their throats, and scald and pluck them. First, human workers strap the live chickens into leg shackles on a moving rail, from which the birds hang upside-down as they move on to baths of electrified water, which stuns them. This is ostensibly for humane purposes, in order to render them insensible before their throats are cut, but some observers believe it is done merely to immobilize them to a degree sufficient to make further processing easier, not to desensitize them. The stunned birds move on to a mechanical blade that cuts their throats. After the chickens bleed out, they are plunged into a scalding bath that removes feathers. Unfortunately, this high-speed assembly-line process contains potential missteps. The voltage in the electrified bath may be too low, resulting in the rapid recovery of the chickens, who are then well aware of the throat-cutting machine as they approach it. The blade misses many chickens, so they consequently are boiled alive in the scalding bath.

- See more at: http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advo...ZQLs3.dpuf

Their entire lives are spent in pain and suffering. This means constant pain. Constant. Think about that. Constant.

“Broiler chickens lead a life of misery.

“Their excessive and unnatural growth rate has come about as a result of genetic engineering and makes them pile on weight three times as fast as they should.

“Their bones simply cannot handle this and as a result they suffer awful, painful leg ­deformities that leave many of them unable to walk at all.

“If dogs, cats or horses were kept in these conditions people would be prosecuted.”

"Concentration camps": Secret film exposes sickening cruelty of UK chicken factory farms

[BrownEye]

Sorry I'm late guys just got back from KFC, what did I miss?
Oh...

While I understand your comment was an attempt at humor, please refrain from making remarks intended to rouse emotion especially in regards to a discussion which is already emotionally charged such as this one. It's inflammatory and only serves to increase separation within the discussion.

I thought it was good humor LoL!

[Parsons]

Is this a red herring?

No

Seems so, but with the thick low-brow sarcasm and zealotry it's hard to tell.

How else do you suggest getting this message across? As far as I can tell, there is criticism for vegans and vegetarians no matter what they do or how they say it.

On this "enlightened" site (B4), I have learned to walk on eggshells continually around the subject of being vegetarian, while being unreservedly subjected to pot shots from those who eat meat. No offense taken, though. I just see it as catalyst to hone my communication skills. Which is why I asked the above question.

I find it quite interesting you feel this way. I have not perceived any jabs at vegan/vegetarians (until after your reply, anyways). Conversely, I have had received less than harmonious responses when expressing that I still eat meat in a reduced capacity with much more respect, while stating I respect the path of vegans/vegetarians very much. I have received the 'cold shoulder' when trying to discuss with civility.

In fact, I'm curious what intentions were when this thread was created. The thread title is somewhat gimmicky/misleading and seems to be 'advertising' going vegan in a section which is not devoted to Health/Diet. From my perspective, it almost seems to want to convert omnivores to a strictly herbivorous diet.

[Diana]

I find it quite interesting you feel this way. I have not perceived any jabs at vegan/vegetarians (until after your reply, anyways).

Everyone has their own perspective. And that's fine. And though I may have not made it clear, I was not referring to this thread; rather, any threads or conversations about this subject.

Conversely, I have had received less than harmonious responses when expressing that I still eat meat in a reduced capacity with much more respect, while stating I respect the path of vegans/vegetarians very much. I have received the 'cold shoulder' when trying to discuss with civility.

Can you link to where this happened? I seem to recall many, many instances where (especially Monica) cheered anyone on who had either reduced or given up eating meat.

In fact, I'm curious what intentions were when this thread was created. The thread title is somewhat gimmicky/misleading and seems to be 'advertising' going vegan in a section which is not devoted to Health/Diet.

Perhaps it was "misleading" in the context of a very serious, very strict format; but this is an example of 2 curious behaviors regarding this subject:

1. As BrownEye pointed out, in any other instance some leeway would be allowed and less offense taken. But when speaking of eating meat, those who try to talk about the ramifications seem to be constantly judged for not being exactly articulate, and not being enlightened enough to allow others' free will, and generally held to extremely high standards within very tight parameters. Free will isn't so offended on other subjects.

2. "Misleading" is a judgment. Why not call it sarcasm or humor, or even a funnier, less direct way of making a point (because the direct way is often seen as pointing the finger at those who support the system of eating meat)?

From my perspective, it almost seems to want to convert omnivores to a strictly herbivorous diet.

For one thing, every single site with information is promoting their information because they either "believe" in it, think it's important, or whatever their reasons are. Within this context, once again, because of the subject, it seems that it's "inappropriate" here to promote their information, but everywhere else it's okay. There may be an element of wanting to convert in every single site with information as well, for various reasons.

I will say two things, however:

1. I personally don't want to convert anyone to anything. On the other hand,

2. I do sincerely hope the needless cruelty to animals stops.

[Monica]

I find it quite interesting you feel this way. I have not perceived any jabs at vegan/vegetarians (until after your reply, anyways).

Not in this thread. It happened a lot in other threads, and in everyday life.

Conversely, I have had received less than harmonious responses when expressing that I still eat meat in a reduced capacity with much more respect, while stating I respect the path of vegans/vegetarians very much. I have received the 'cold shoulder' when trying to discuss with civility.

That's awful! I commend anyone for reducing their meat intake. It's not where someone is at that's important; it's where they're going. I applaud any efforts to reduce animal suffering.

In fact, I'm curious what intentions were when this thread was created. The thread title is somewhat gimmicky/misleading and seems to be 'advertising' going vegan in a section which is not devoted to Health/Diet. From my perspective, it almost seems to want to convert omnivores to a strictly herbivorous diet.

I don't think in terms of 'converting' anyone to anything. That's religious lingo. I think in terms of just sharing info, and leaving it up to the person as to what they want to do with that info.

I chose that title for the thread because that's the name of the website I posted in post #1. I found it catchy and humorous.

My initial intention was just to post the news about the vegans dominating the bodybuilding contest, which I found quite exciting and newsworthy. I love dispelling stereotypes, and the stereotype about the 'sickly, scrawny' vegans is one that's gotta go.

I posted it here because it was a news item and wasn't a discussion about diet per se.

Even if the discussion evolves more in the direction of animal cruelty, that still isn't a health issue; it's a compassion issue, so it still wouldn't be appropriate in the health/diet thread.

[Sagittarius]

So I read this thread last night before I went to sleep and had a pretty funny and quirky dream.

In my dream the guy who wrote the article was now the leader of a worldwide vegan dictatorship. All meat has been made illegal and all animals have been exalted to untouchable status.
Then I see a little boy poor boy in a back alley chasing a chicken through the streets. The starving boy catches the chicken breaks its neck then cooks it cautiously over a little fire.

Fast forward later the boy get's home and his parents question his whereabouts, they can tell he his worried. Not a second later the VTF or Vegan Tactical Forces burst in black bagging his family violently.

A tall slender elderly women walks into the room, a kind expression on her face masking almost uncontrollable hostility. Walking up to the boy she gently takes a swab from the boys mouth, dousing the swab in her standard issue meat detector kit she frowns slightly.

"Do you know what you have done Jimmy?" "You must love animals completely it is not enough to obey Jimmy"

Jimmy is then taken away to the meat disorder clinic. He had heard stories of this place but never could he have imagined the horror he was about to witness. The clinic was a giant facility, some say it was larger then the large hadron collider.

The walls were lined with test tube cages, inside people suspended in liquid soy. Giant robot arms where transporting the cages to sections around the facility. In one cage the boy saw a young girl not much older then him in a ring naked with a wolverine, he closed his eyes and weeped as the wolverine ripped her limb from limb.

The man escorting her chuckled and without emotion told her this was only the beginning. "You like blood do ya little boy, let's see how you like the taste of your own blood, Muahahahahahaha"

Dream cut as they were walking into a room full of knives and torturing devices.

I laughed a lot when I woke up, the whole style of the dream was quite funny and satirical. Wouldn't be a bad idea for a novel actually.

[Monica]

So I read this thread last night before I went to sleep and had a pretty funny and quirky dream.

In my dream the guy who wrote the article was now the leader of a worldwide vegan dictatorship. All meat has been made illegal and all animals have been exalted to untouchable status.
Then I see a little boy poor boy in a back alley chasing a chicken through the streets. The starving boy catches the chicken breaks its neck then cooks it cautiously over a little fire.

Fast forward later the boy get's home and his parents question his whereabouts, they can tell he his worried. Not a second later the VTF or Vegan Tactical Forces burst in black bagging his family violently.

A tall slender elderly women walks into the room, a kind expression on her face masking almost uncontrollable hostility. Walking up to the boy she gently takes a swab from the boys mouth, dousing the swab in her standard issue meat detector kit she frowns slightly.

"Do you know what you have done Jimmy?" "You must love animals completely it is not enough to obey Jimmy"

Jimmy is then taken away to the meat disorder clinic. He had heard stories of this place but never could he have imagined the horror he was about to witness. The clinic was a giant facility, some say it was larger then the large hadron collider.

The walls were lined with test tube cages, inside people suspended in liquid soy. Giant robot arms where transporting the cages to sections around the facility. In one cage the boy saw a young girl not much older then him in a ring naked with a wolverine, he closed his eyes and weeped as the wolverine ripped her limb from limb.

The man escorting her chuckled and without emotion told her this was only the beginning. "You like blood do ya little boy, let's see how you like the taste of your own blood, Muahahahahahaha"

Dream cut as they were walking into a room full of knives and torturing devices.

I laughed a lot when I woke up, the whole style of the dream was quite funny and satirical. Wouldn't be a bad idea for a novel actually.

How very illuminating! I think you just inadvertently discovered what might be the collective subconscious view towards vegetarians/vegetarianism. This speaks volumes in explaining why so many people are resistant and even resentful or hostile regarding the issue. My guess is that your dream applies to most people, not just the person who had the dream (in this case, you). You might even have had the dream in order to deliver this message to the rest of us.

Since you posted it, do you mind if I make an attempt at interpretation? Please keep in mind that I don't wish to psycho-analyze you personally, but I see universal archetypes being illustrated in your dream. I really think it applies to most people, rather than being about you per se.

I'd say that the person who had that dream, and likely most of the population, has a fear of starving if he can't get meat (boy starving, chasing a chicken) indicating that, subconsciously, meat=wellbeing, and a concern about hypocrisy among vegetarians...perhaps a fear that vegetarians care more about animals than they do humans (the authorities letting the animal tear apart the girl), as well as a fear of being controlled (woman swabbing the boy's mouth to see if he's been doing something illegal).

It also seems to indicate a mentality of separation and competition for resources, left over from 2D; ie. there isn't enough to go around, so we are in a competition with the animals for survival...it's either us or them...we can't live harmoniously with them...the idea that we might all be healthier and happier if we coexist peacefully isn't reflected here at all. Rather, the dream depicts the view that survival depends on bloodshed.

[Sagittarius]

So I read this thread last night before I went to sleep and had a pretty funny and quirky dream.

In my dream the guy who wrote the article was now the leader of a worldwide vegan dictatorship. All meat has been made illegal and all animals have been exalted to untouchable status.
Then I see a little boy poor boy in a back alley chasing a chicken through the streets. The starving boy catches the chicken breaks its neck then cooks it cautiously over a little fire.

Fast forward later the boy get's home and his parents question his whereabouts, they can tell he his worried. Not a second later the VTF or Vegan Tactical Forces burst in black bagging his family violently.

A tall slender elderly women walks into the room, a kind expression on her face masking almost uncontrollable hostility. Walking up to the boy she gently takes a swab from the boys mouth, dousing the swab in her standard issue meat detector kit she frowns slightly.

"Do you know what you have done Jimmy?" "You must love animals completely it is not enough to obey Jimmy"

Jimmy is then taken away to the meat disorder clinic. He had heard stories of this place but never could he have imagined the horror he was about to witness. The clinic was a giant facility, some say it was larger then the large hadron collider.

The walls were lined with test tube cages, inside people suspended in liquid soy. Giant robot arms where transporting the cages to sections around the facility. In one cage the boy saw a young girl not much older then him in a ring naked with a wolverine, he closed his eyes and weeped as the wolverine ripped her limb from limb.

The man escorting her chuckled and without emotion told her this was only the beginning. "You like blood do ya little boy, let's see how you like the taste of your own blood, Muahahahahahaha"

Dream cut as they were walking into a room full of knives and torturing devices.

I laughed a lot when I woke up, the whole style of the dream was quite funny and satirical. Wouldn't be a bad idea for a novel actually.

How very illuminating! I think you just inadvertently discovered what might be the collective subconscious view towards vegetarians/vegetarianism. This speaks volumes in explaining why so many people are resistant and even resentful or hostile regarding the issue. My guess is that your dream applies to most people, not just the person who had the dream (in this case, you). You might even have had the dream in order to deliver this message to the rest of us.

Since you posted it, do you mind if I make an attempt at interpretation? Please keep in mind that I don't wish to psycho-analyze you personally, but I see universal archetypes being illustrated in your dream. I really think it applies to most people, rather than being about you per se.

I'd say that the person who had that dream, and likely most of the population, has a fear of starving if he can't get meat (boy starving, chasing a chicken) indicating that, subconsciously, meat=wellbeing, and a concern about hypocrisy among vegetarians...perhaps a fear that vegetarians care more about animals than they do humans (the authorities letting the animal tear apart the girl), as well as a fear of being controlled (woman swabbing the boy's mouth to see if he's been doing something illegal).

It also seems to indicate a mentality of separation and competition for resources, left over from 2D; ie. there isn't enough to go around, so we are in a competition with the animals for survival...it's either us or them...we can't live harmoniously with them...the idea that we might all be healthier and happier if we coexist peacefully isn't reflected here at all. Rather, the dream depicts the view that survival depends on bloodshed.

Yeh I knew I had to post this as soon as I woke up hehe. I agree with you, I would also add that it goes both ways. No doubt the flavor in which the article was written contributed to how the darkside of the vegan agenda was portrayed to me.

I have no doubt that no vegans would actually think like that however I think the dream communicated to me the importance of clear communication. The article was trying to communicate that just because your vegan doesn't mean your weak and sickly and in fact bodybuilders have lots of success while being vegan as well.

They get that point across but in the wrong way. The undertone to the article takes the spotlight and that is the frustration and animosity vegans still have towards meat eaters and there ridicule.

So the original point gets stuck under a different type of issue.

[Parsons]

The point I was attempting to make is that much of the information in this thread has been covered ad naseum. The OP was somewhat new information since it was evidence towards dispelling a myth, although I wasn't aware that such a stereotype even existed. However, it seems to have turned into the meat thread discussion. So I'm not sure why more attention needs to be drawn to this subject. Especially since, for the most part, it seems like preaching to the choir on these forums.

[Monica]

No doubt the flavor in which the article was written contributed to how the darkside of the vegan agenda was portrayed to me.

OK now you lost me. What do you mean by 'dark side of the vegan agenda?'

They get that point across but in the wrong way. The undertone to the article takes the spotlight and that is the frustration and animosity vegans still have towards meat eaters and there ridicule.

'Still have?' How would they not 'still have' frustration (not sure about animosity) when they are still encountering ridicule and even hostility?

Someone asked if it was a private joke. Yes, in a way it is. I actually hadn't seen the rest of the website when I posted this thread. I just saw the page about the vegan bodybuilders and wanted to share that.

Later, I looked at more of it and saw that it's using a strategy to get a point across. All that stuff you read on the website actually happens to vegetarians. Exaggerated? Not really. We really do hear those words, almost verbatim. So the website is simply turning it around.

---

The point I was attempting to make is that much of the information in this thread has been covered ad naseum. The OP was somewhat new information since it was evidence towards dispelling a myth,

It was an interesting tidbit so I posted it. The direction this thread is going in now is a result of the comments by all the participants. In other words, each of us is contributing to the direction of this thread. It's being created by us. The OP didn't decide that; the participants did.

So I'm not sure why more attention needs to be drawn to this subject.

Well, maybe because animals are still suffering...?

Especially since, for the most part, it seems like preaching to the choir on these forums.

Really? I find that surprising. You speak as though we're all in agreement on this subject.

[Parsons]

Ah, thank you for answering my question. Animals are still suffering, yes. But what good does it to continue to worry about when you have done a fantastic job of raising awareness on these forums? I would argue that 95%+ of the active forum members are aware that animals are suffering needlessly. I would also venture a guess that the majority of those members, at least philosophically, are for eating cruelty free food. The remainder are by choice ignorant or apathetic to the subject.

So trying to convince those who are willfully choosing to eat non-cruelty free food seems like a borderline free will abridgment.

[Sagittarius]

By the darkside I meant the negative way in which the vegan agenda can be interpreted. Who did what first is irrelevant, can you see how intentions can be easily seen as negative especially when who did what first is used as justification because as we all know all is one.

Articles and sites like that do nothing for the cause. There's no reason for them, the truth will always come out.

[Aloysius]

Sorry I'm late guys just got back from KFC, what did I miss?
Oh...

While I understand your comment was an attempt at humor, please refrain from making remarks intended to rouse emotion especially in regards to a discussion which is already emotionally charged such as this one. It's inflammatory and only serves to increase separation within the discussion.

While it was indeed as you put it an "attempt" (that bluntness just puts my humor to shame man, dayyum) at humor it wasn't intended to rouse emotion, though I should've employed a little foresight.
I'm a vegetarian myself, it was not a "pot shot" at anyone, and I'm sorry if it felt that way
Will refrain from such actions again Austin

[Monica]

So trying to convince those who are willfully choosing to eat non-cruelty free food seems like a borderline free will abridgment.

Good thing no one's trying to convince anyone of anything!

---

By the darkside I meant the negative way in which the vegan agenda can be interpreted.

The only ones who 'interpreted' abolitionists as 'negative' were those who wanted to keep slaves.

---

I'm a vegetarian myself, it was not a "pot shot" at anyone, and I'm sorry if it felt that way

Ah, then you must have just gotten back from using KFC's restroom! Yes, KFC and McDonald's both come in handy when one needs to use the restroom! I utilize them whenever I'm on the road.

[Sagittarius]

So trying to convince those who are willfully choosing to eat non-cruelty free food seems like a borderline free will abridgment.

Good thing no one's trying to convince anyone of anything!

---

By the darkside I meant the negative way in which the vegan agenda can be interpreted.

The only ones who 'interpreted' abolitionists as 'negative' were those who wanted to keep slaves.

---

I'm a vegetarian myself, it was not a "pot shot" at anyone, and I'm sorry if it felt that way

Ah, then you must have just gotten back from using KFC's restroom! Yes, KFC and McDonald's both come in handy when one needs to use the restroom! I utilize them whenever I'm on the road.

Yes and how did slavery end? Did Lincoln highlight how farm owner's without slaves where producing just as much cotton as farmer's with slaves in a sarcastic passive aggressive manner ?

[Diana]

Sorry I'm late guys just got back from KFC, what did I miss?
Oh...

While I understand your comment was an attempt at humor, please refrain from making remarks intended to rouse emotion especially in regards to a discussion which is already emotionally charged such as this one. It's inflammatory and only serves to increase separation within the discussion.

While it was indeed as you put it an "attempt" (that bluntness just puts my humor to shame man, dayyum) at humor it wasn't intended to rouse emotion, though I should've employed a little foresight.
I'm a vegetarian myself, it was not a "pot shot" at anyone, and I'm sorry if it felt that way
Will refrain from such actions again Austin

Sorry for perhaps an overreaction on my part, Aloysius. The pot shots were real though on another thread, causing much trouble including one member being banned.

As a vegetarian for 20 years, the amount of kidding that goes on when people find out I don't eat meat is endless--I just had a baby seal for lunch and the like. I understand the concept "lighten up" but I just don't think that stuff is funny. No offense taken however.

---

By the darkside I meant the negative way in which the vegan agenda can be interpreted.

Yes, by those doing the interpreting.

Who did what first is irrelevant, can you see how intentions can be easily seen as negative especially when who did what first is used as justification because as we all know all is one.

I'm not convinced that anyone knows this who does not include all. All means all.

Articles and sites like that do nothing for the cause. There's no reason for them, the truth will always come out.

There is no cause. That's why the term "zealots" is so offensive. There are "zealots" out there in every section of society, especially religions. But vegetarians (or vegans) have seemed to traditionally been all lumped into this category. Gosh, can't you guys here on this site give us a break?

The truth may come out eventually, but take a look at history. All leaps of humankind evolution have been prompted by fringe people--Galileo, Einstein, Martin Luther King. Would you remove the fringe of beings attempting to help humankind move away from outright cruelty?

When I say there is no cause, it's because anyone who has landed here has some idea of free will (hopefully). And the core vegetarians I know here are all intelligent. Would anyone like to suggest how we could state our opinions without giving offense? Please consider your answer; and consider how much we have tried.

---

Ah, thank you for answering my question. Animals are still suffering, yes. But what good does it to continue to worry about when you have done a fantastic job of raising awareness on these forums? I would argue that 95%+ of the active forum members are aware that animals are suffering needlessly. I would also venture a guess that the majority of those members, at least philosophically, are for eating cruelty free food. The remainder are by choice ignorant or apathetic to the subject.

So trying to convince those who are willfully choosing to eat non-cruelty free food seems like a borderline free will abridgment.

So, anyone with opinions aligning with not eating meat should just not speak when that's the subject? Sounds like censorship to me. No one is trying to convince anybody. Can't vegetarians have an opinion here? Jeez!

[Sagittarius]

I highly highly doubt articles like the one posted will be looked back upon as the reason for the change to not eating meat by the majority of the population if that even happens.

This isn't about the vegan vs meat eater agenda, this is was simply about the article that was posted and the faults in communication it contains.
If you still think that article shows vegans in a positive light then I can't help you.

[Parsons]

So, anyone with opinions aligning with not eating meat should just not speak when that's the subject? Sounds like censorship to me. No one is trying to convince anybody. Can't vegetarians have an opinion here? Jeez!

That is not what I was trying to express. My apologies you took it that way. It appears I am having language difficulties expressing this and am putting my foot in my mouth, so I will politely as possible extract myself from this conversation.

[Monica]

Yes and how did slavery end?

By violence.

Did Lincoln highlight how farm owner's without slaves where producing just as much cotton as farmer's with slaves in a sarcastic passive aggressive manner ?

No, he didn't have the internet back then! so he had to resort to guns and bloodshed.

[BrownEye]

So, anyone with opinions aligning with not eating meat should just not speak when that's the subject? Sounds like censorship to me. No one is trying to convince anybody. Can't vegetarians have an opinion here? Jeez!

That is not what I was trying to express. My apologies you took it that way. It appears I am having language difficulties expressing this and am putting my foot in my mouth, so I will politely as possible extract myself from this conversation.

This made me laugh

Ok, just to see if I can divert energies, I will share my recent experience with a head of lettuce.

I was at Natural Grocers loading up my cart with kale, then moved on to the romaine lettuce. I do not like to touch food I don't buy, so when I pulled out this head that ended up being super tiny, I was like "awww sheeeit". So my first reaction is dang it, I am wasting money on that one, but threw it in the cart. Later at the cash register as I am putting everything on the conveyor I pick up that lettuce and the same thought runs through my head "can't believe I am wasting money on that". So as I am thinking this for the second time a voice says in my head "you can't put me back because nobody else will buy me and I will wilt and waste." That sounded logical to me, and I felt better because of it.

Later I wanted to know if the lettuce actually planted that thought in my head. My guides tell me that yes I sometimes communicate with plant life, and no I did not and do not communicate with heads of lettuce. What I DID find though is that there are guides for plants (seemingly a group thing) and those words came from the guide of the plant. You could look at it as a single guide oversees all of that species of lettuce for an area the size of a large city.

I know it sounds crazy as hell, but the more sensitive I become to things of the other side, the more I tend to sound crazy.

[Sagittarius]

Yes and how did slavery end?

By violence.

Did Lincoln highlight how farm owner's without slaves where producing just as much cotton as farmer's with slaves in a sarcastic passive aggressive manner ?

No, he didn't have the internet back then! so he had to resort to guns and bloodshed.

I don't know what your trying to say. I'am arguing the way the article was written was doing more harm to the general view of vegans then good.

You literally just made my point for me, ineffective or no communication can lead to violence very significantly. If Lincoln had the broadness of communication that we have today do you think he would have resorted to the style shown in the article?

Lincoln was a good communicator he understood you needed to unite not separate, the article in question is inciting separation.

Slavery of 3d beings is very different from the killing and eating of 2d beings to maintain the chemical body. Seeing it from the higher perspective is fine but constantly trying to apply the higher perspective gets you no were. Like it or not everything is ok and all the suffering of every thing is not a big deal. You can increase your suffering more if you wish, maybe that's your picnic.

Abraham Lincoln "I hold it to be a paramount duty of us in the free states, due to the Union of the states, and perhaps to liberty itself (paradox though it may seem) to let the slavery of the other states alone; while, on the other hand, I hold it to be equally clear, that we should never knowingly lend ourselves directly or indirectly, to prevent that slavery from dying a natural death---to find new places for it to live in, when it can no longer exist in the old."

[Monica]

I don't know what your trying to say. I'am arguing the way the article was written was doing more harm to the general view of vegans then good.

Are you referring to the bodybuilding page, or the whole website in general?

If you're referring to the whole website, I doubt that it's harming the cause at all, because it's just one among many thousands, and likely read by mostly vegans. But even if it did harm the 'view of vegans' I don't think vegans care much about how they're viewed. It's not about how we're viewed; it's about helping the animals.

And, if you're referring to the whole website, please remember that I posted a link to the page about the bodybuilding competition. This thread has taken off in another direction, to be about the whole website in general.

You literally just made my point for me, ineffective or no communication can lead to violence very significantly.

I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that Lincoln was more effective, since he succeeded in abolishing slavery, whereas vegans have, thus far, failed. Thank you for the clarification.

If Lincoln had the broadness of communication that we have today do you think he would have resorted to the style shown in the article?

I don't know about Lincoln specifically, but if humans were being kept as slaves for many centuries, and an active group of people had been working to free them for many decades but failed, yes, I'm quite sure some of them would have resorted to sarcasm, at the very least.

Lincoln was a good communicator he understood you needed to unite not separate,

I'd say war is kinda separating...

the article in question is inciting separation.

So? Why has this become about the style of the article? Isn't the violence of killing sentient 2D creatures a much worse offence?

Would anyone be complaining about the 'style' of the writing if someone used sarcasm to raise awareness about human slavery? Would anyone be saying "oh you are being divisive...let's not talk about human slavery...let's talk about your sarcasm" ?

Slavery of 3d beings is very different from the killing and eating of 2d beings to maintain the chemical body.

That's true. However, it's no longer necessary to kill and eat 2D beings to maintain the chemical body.

Thus, any killing/eating of 2D beings is based on desires for taste and convenience.

I used to say that there were some exceptions...some people who required meat because of unusual health conditions. But recently, I've learned that that's no longer true either. There are now solutions that help those with such metabolisms to succeed in thriving on a plant-based diet. With this new info, I now believe that anyone who wishes to avoid animal cruelty, can thrive on a vegetarian diet, if they are willing to make the effort.

Seeing it from the higher perspective is fine but constantly trying to apply the higher perspective gets you no were.

Really? So are you saying we shouldn't try to apply higher ideals?

Like it or not everything is ok

No, everything is not ok. Sure, everything is 'ok' in 6D and beyond, but right here right now, it's NOT ok. Look around you. The world is still pretty messed up. I'd say that's far from ok.

and all the suffering of every thing is not a big deal.

The ones who are suffering might not agree with that.

You can increase your suffering more if you wish, maybe that's your picnic.

Nope. I'm actually trying to decrease suffering. I choose the STO path...that means Service to Others. 2D animals are others.

Abraham Lincoln "I hold it to be a paramount duty of us in the free states, due to the Union of the states, and perhaps to liberty itself (paradox though it may seem) to let the slavery of the other states alone; while, on the other hand, I hold it to be equally clear, that we should never knowingly lend ourselves directly or indirectly, to prevent that slavery from dying a natural death---to find new places for it to live in, when it can no longer exist in the old."

Yes, Lincoln actually has a lot of critics. Apparently, they say, he really didn't care about the slaves at all...the civil war wasn't even about that. It was about politics and keeping the southern states from seceding. So I don't really consider Lincoln any sort of role model. He was a Wanderer, a walk-in, actually, but many of us are (presumably) Wanderers and yet far from perfect. Not only that, but we don't know whether this quote was from before or after he got walked in. It might have been the original soul who said that, not the Wanderer.


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[AnthroHeart]

I do not like to touch food I don't buy, so when I pulled out this head that ended up being super tiny, I was like "awww sheeeit". So my first reaction is dang it, I am wasting money on that one, but threw it in the cart. Later at the cash register as I am putting everything on the conveyor I pick up that lettuce and the same thought runs through my head "can't believe I am wasting money on that". So as I am thinking this for the second time a voice says in my head "you can't put me back because nobody else will buy me and I will wilt and waste." That sounded logical to me, and I felt better because of it.

I wonder if those little dammit moments we have affect our polarity.

[Diana]

Like it or not everything is ok and all the suffering of every thing is not a big deal.

Would you say this about human suffering too? (Since for many, the suffering of animals is brushed off more easily.) Is it okay that we ignore the suffering of starving children and just go about our lives as though it's okay? I'm not talking about activism here, I'm talking about basic compassion and collective human accountability.

Pulitzer prize-winning photograph

In 1994, South African photojournalist Kevin Carter won the Pulitzer prize for his disturbing photograph of a Sudanese child being stalked by a vulture (left). That same year, Kevin Carter committed suicide.

[AnthroHeart]

That's sad that Kevin Carter committed suicide. I don't think I could handle the job of photographing such poverty. He had so much going for him, winning the Pulitzer. It makes me rethink when I get suicidal thoughts. Even though my life is going great, those thoughts sometimes still inundate me.