Why I am not a vegan

[Diana]

I would like to put the below question again. I am very interested in other opinions. I find this particular aspect of 3D life very difficult.

The thing is, what would any of you B4 members do, if in your own country, on a daily and wide-spread basis, children or just people were being tortured and killed for unnecessary reasons? Could you accept this and not say anything because it is the free will and right of the 3D beings? At what point would any of you want to speak out in some way?

[βαθμιαίος]

Wouldn't that be analogous to the hunger in Africa situation that Ra and Don discussed? "To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this."

Also, we're in third density now, and the "impulse to protect the loved other-self is one which persists through the fourth density, a density abounding in compassion."

[Diana]

Wouldn't that be analogous to the hunger in Africa situation that Ra and Don discussed? "To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this."

Also, we're in third density now, and the "impulse to protect the loved other-self is one which persists through the fourth density, a density abounding in compassion."

Yes, I agree with this. But what is one to do about the animal kingdom and the suffering we humans are causing? If I extrapolate, then the message seems to be to do something to alleviate the suffering. And yet, there is the free will of others.

I am obviously not from realms above 4th density.

[βαθμιαίος]

I think it's in the social realm and hence would be addressed by the quote below, rather than the intricate considerations of free will.

18.6 ...The area or arena called the societal complex is an arena in which there are no particular needs for care for it is the prerogative/honor/duty of those in the particular planetary sphere to act according to its free will for the attempted aid of the social complex.

[Monica]

Wouldn't that be analogous to the hunger in Africa situation that Ra and Don discussed? "To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this."

Also, we're in third density now, and the "impulse to protect the loved other-self is one which persists through the fourth density, a density abounding in compassion."

Yes, I agree with this. But what is one to do about the animal kingdom and the suffering we humans are causing? If I extrapolate, then the message seems to be to do something to alleviate the suffering.

Exactly. The positive path is called Service to Others. Why do most of the people here on this forum seem to leave out our younger other-selves? I don't understand it.

And yet, there is the free will of others.

They have free will to inflict pain and suffering onto humans too, and yet no one suggests that it's ok for STO-oriented people to support that. Yet they argue vehemently that they have the 'right' to contribute to the suffering of our younger other-selves.

This makes no sense. The STO path is one of service and compassion. Why are the majority of people here at B4 arguing against service and compassion, in favor of dominance, conquest, and violating free will?

That is the essence of killing a sentient being: Dominate them, conquer them, violate their free will to live, destroy them. How is that not STS? All to satisfy a taste...a preference...Is this not the very definition of Service to Self?

I am obviously not from realms above 4th density.

It's rather popular to imply that those with compassion aren't very evolved...only 4D Wanderers instead of higher. This totally misses the point about the density of Choice and the STO path. I think it's a myth that the densities above 4D don't have compassion. Of course they do! They just temper it with wisdom.

[Billy]

Monica, what do you think about vegan pet food? I've been thinking about whether or not I should put my cat on such a diet but am concerned for obvious reasons.

[isis]

http://www.realclearscience.com/articles...06315.html

I came across this article on reddit.com/r/todayilearned the other day that says "Cats can go blind and die if forced onto a vegetarian diet."

[Jade]

Yes, a vegan/vegetarian diet is NOT for cats. They are pure carnivores. There are plenty of documented cases of dogs thriving on vegan diets, however.

[Diana]

I am obviously not from realms above 4th density.

It's rather popular to imply that those with compassion aren't very evolved...only 4D Wanderers instead of higher. This totally misses the point about the density of Choice and the STO path. I think it's a myth that the densities above 4D don't have compassion. Of course they do! They just temper it with wisdom.

That is the wisdom I feel I don't have. I can imagine a very advanced being looking upon suffering with detachment, knowing that in the bigger picture it makes sense. But it must be a knowing that goes beyond the intellect. As you say, it must INCLUDE the real compassion.

Perhaps it is a condition of being here, in a 3D body, which is physiologically run by instinct and genetic memory, that makes it difficult to detach.

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Yes, a vegan/vegetarian diet is NOT for cats. They are pure carnivores. There are plenty of documented cases of dogs thriving on vegan diets, however.

Yes, the cat system is completely carnivorous. They cannot process botanicals. When I started working with essential oils I discovered that they can make cats ill.

There is pet food you can buy that is humane. Also, you can make your own from humane products. It's been a while since I had a cat, so I don't remember the products or recipes, but they are easy to find on the Internet.

I let my cats, when I had them, roam free at will. This way, they hunted and though I didn't like it when they killed little creatures, it was their most natural food. It's the way the predator/prey world is at present. (This is a very different situation than humans creating factory farms.)

If a cat is allowed to be taught by its mother to hunt, and not be taken away too early from the fold, they will know how to kill quickly and not just play with their catch.

I of course fed them as well. My last 2 cats lived long lives—over 20. Now I have a deer and javelina herd as wild pets.

[Monica]

Monica, what do you think about vegan pet food? I've been thinking about whether or not I should put my cat on such a diet but am concerned for obvious reasons.

That's a dilemma. Here is the earlier discussion on this difficult topic:

But you feed meat to your cats and dogs, don't you? Isn't that hypocritical?
Post #643 Aaron
Post #644 Monica
Post #647 Monica and Oceania (and continues in post #656)

I used to be fiercely against feeding dogs and cats vegetarian, because they are obviously carnivorous animals. Just look at those teeth! To deny them the food their bodies were designed for is as illogical as feeding meat to humans, who obviously aren't carnivorous at all. (Just look at our teeth!)

More recently, I have met many vegans who have vibrantly healthy vegan dogs, and even some who claim to have successfully switched their cats to vegan!

There are several brands of vegan doggie kibble available also, but I haven't been totally happy with the ingredients, so I try to make my own dog food as much as possible. Historically, dogs were fed table scraps and learned to adapt to a largely vegetarian diet. While cats still know how to hunt rodents and birds, modern domesticated dogs starve out on the streets, were it not for finding scraps of food thrown out by humans. Their ancestors hunted in packs. Most dogs are incapable of hunting and killing prey on their own. That's why stray dogs tend to roam in packs, but they still don't seem to remember how to hunt.

So the consensus seems to be that dogs can be vegetarian, or even vegan, but cats can't. The basis of this conclusion is the taurine issue - a nutrient that cats supposedly need but dogs don't. That is a myth, however. I recently read Obligate Carnivore and it opened my eyes! So now I have a renewed goal of switching all my dogs and cats over. The dogs are easy but I don't yet have the confidence to switch my cats. I am open to learning though, and am currently engaged in a conversation with the vegans who have vegan cats.

My local farmer's market has eggs from chickens who truly do roam freely (in contrast to those in grocery stores labeled 'cage-free' but are actually just larger cages and just as cruel - gotta be careful with egg labels!) so I cook them for my dogs, in coconut oil, then add cooked potatoes, some veggies like squash, a dash of salt and some nutritional yeast. They love it!

[Unbound]

On that note, I am just curious as to your standpoint, would you recommend a "most ethical" way of slaughtering the animals for food for carnivorous pets? (Since it might take a long time to turn every cat and dog vegan lol)

[Monica]

On that note, I am just curious as to your standpoint, would you recommend a "most ethical" way of slaughtering the animals for food for carnivorous pets? (Since it might take a long time to turn every cat and dog vegan lol)

Any decrease in cruelty is progress. We have a major dilemma with all the cats and dogs, who are no longer in a natural habitat, so we obviously have to feed them something.

The issue I have is when humans continue to eat animals, claiming that they were 'humanely' slaughtered and therefore it's 'ok.' There is a huge difference between choosing the least cruelly produced dead animals to feed other animals, vs. supporting the UNnecessary killing of animals to feed humans, since humans don't need to eat meat to begin with.

I highly recommend reading Obligate Carnivore. It totally blasts some of the myths about dogs' and cats' optimal diets. For example, it's not 'natural' for an 8-lb housecat to kill a cow or an ocean tunafish.

There is no easy or instant solution. But there ARE solutions! If humans transitioned to vegan, the artificially bloated cattle population would gradually shrink to a more natural and manageable size. We are responsible for the dogs and cats, but I reject the notion that we must kill some animals in order to feed others, so I'm optimistic that cats and dogs can indeed thrive on a vegetarian diet. I would rather have the goal of transitioning them to a vegetarian diet (which includes some small amounts of free-range eggs, perhaps) first, to see how they do, before attempting all the way vegan. That makes sense to me.

We are seeing more and more videos of animals engaged in compassionate acts towards other animals of other species. My own cats didn't know what to do with a mouse they caught. They seem to have lost their instinctual desire to kill and eat that mouse or bird. One of my dogs goes nuts over fruit!

Yes, I am optimistic that our dogs and cats are capable of evolving in a swift shift in consciousness, just like we can. There's no reason why their first lifetime as a human can't be a vegetarian human!

But we can't expect them to, if we are still dragging our own feet.

Edit: I just realized that you were asking if I could recommend a 'most ethical' method. (At first I thought you were asking if I supported that.) I wish I could, but I don't know an easy answer to that. I am transitioning my own dogs at this point. We won't change the world overnight. That's why I contend that we must start with ourselves.

Edit: Just found this in the comments section. Last I checked, they had vegan doggie kibble but not kitty kibble. Apparently now there is a vegan kitty kibble! Yipppeee! This is great news, since my cats turned their noses up at the egg-potato stew my dogs enjoy.

[Unbound]

All seems like a very manipulated attempt to shape nature to your comforts, but all the power to ya! Aha

---

(And I'm not saying it's not a worthy attempt, it's just kind of funny to me and reminds me of all the ways in which humans love to play God by deciding the 'right' way for things to be)

[Monica]

All seems like a very manipulated attempt to shape nature to your comforts, but all the power to ya! Aha

---

(And I'm not saying it's not a worthy attempt, it's just kind of funny to me and reminds me of all the ways in which humans love to play God by deciding the 'right' way for things to be)

Were the people who freed the slaves 'playing God'?

Were the people who helped the Jews escape the holocaust 'playing God'?

[Unbound]

Yes, playing God against others playing God. You can't stop others from playing God without doing so yourself.

---

(For the record my point is that if humans weren't so interested in playing God in the first place there would have been no slaves or genocides to have to stop.)

[Monica]

Yes, playing God against others playing God. You can't stop others from playing God without doing so yourself.

---

(For the record my point is that if humans weren't so interested in playing God in the first place there would have been no slaves or genocides to have to stop.)

Then do you disagree with the whole concept of Service to Others?

[Unbound]

Why would I?

[Monica]

Why would I?

Working to free slaves, out of compassion, is an act of service to others. So I'm asking if you agree with the concept of service to others, or do you think any act of service is 'manipulative' and 'playing God'?

[Unbound]

All acts are the Creator serving the Creator. The One powers both sides, that was my point. That I do my best to strive to be of service to others doesn't defeat the fact that service to self is just as much an activity of the Creator, God playing with God. So yes, service to others is still playing God. It may be playing God in a positive role, attempting to bring good things to others, but it is still no less playing God.

Indeed, I would say the whole saga of polarity is really just about what side you decide to play God on since we are all just God playing with God.

---

(Once again, I'm not saying the effort to be of service to others isn't worthy, just that I think anyone who thinks that by trying to be of service to others that they are "different" from those who serve themselves is delusional)

[Monica]

All acts are the Creator serving the Creator. The One powers both sides, that was my point. That I do my best to strive to be of service to others doesn't defeat the fact that service to self is just as much an activity of the Creator, God playing with God. So yes, service to others is still playing God. It may be playing God in a positive role, attempting to bring good things to others, but it is still no less playing God.

Indeed, I would say the whole saga of polarity is really just about what side you decide to play God on since we are all just God playing with God.

---

You seem to be making the point that both paths have value. Yes, they do. But, we cannot simultaneously straddle both paths. In order to polarize, we must choose a path, at this nexus. We are in the density of Choice.

(Once again, I'm not saying the effort to be of service to others isn't worthy, just that I think anyone who thinks that by trying to be of service to others that they are "different" from those who serve themselves is delusional)

Did you intend to say better than or did you really mean different from?

I agree that STO-oriented entities aren't any better than STS-oriented entities, but I don't think I'm delusional for seeing a difference between the 2 paths.

If the 2 paths weren't different, then there would be only 1 path.

Note: Post has been edited.

[Diana]

(Once again, I'm not saying the effort to be of service to others isn't worthy, just that I think anyone who thinks that by trying to be of service to others that they are "different" from those who serve themselves is delusional)

I think I understand your point, but it is more intellectual than practical. And what about setting an example? If one is living a compassionate life, and setting an example for others, how is that playing god?

Example: I don't kill insects. I have a nephew who is now an adult. I recently learned from his grandmother that he takes insects outside as a matter of course, rather than killing them (as his girlfriend would prefer). I never told him to do this, or why I did. I just do it, and now he does. I consider this service to others (human and insect). Is this playing god?

Another example: On a trip to Costa Rica we were on a boat in the jungle. We came upon another boat where a man had caught a large fish (at least 2 feet long). He was holding it up by the hook. Our guide stopped our boat for all of us to admire it. I hid inside my boyfriend's arms because I was crying silently. Cabo Kurt (the guide) saw me and told the boat driver to move on. He later told my boyfriend that seeing me sincerely—yet privately—moved by the hooked fish's plight, made him question his own actions. He was the great white hunter and had taken shooting safaris to Africa many times. Yet he was changed by this. Was that me playing god?

In my opinion, the idea of compassion derives not from the desire to do good, or because doing to the other is same as doing to the self. I don't care at all about that. I don't need to think of the other as me in order to feel pity or compassion. I think that sort of thinking is only a gimmick to get humans to feel SOMEthing.

If one has reached the stage of compassion, then one is faced with the question of what to do about the suffering here. In this, you are right I think: That we are in a way playing god because we are activating higher aspects of ourselves and trying to act with god-like understanding and balance of all things. But if your heart isn't breaking from the suffering here while claiming that STO individuals are playing god too, then you must be a hugely advanced being whose gotten past all this or you are mistaken. (I don't mean YOU necessarily, just generally anyone; and of course I could be mistaken as well—this is only my opinion.)

Perhaps because my heart breaks so much and so often, I can't fathom others who can be so cavalier about suffering. I say cavalier, because that's how it sounds to me. I may be utterly wrong about that and I take responsibility here for my own paradigm. And yet....the suffering.

[Unbound]

My qualm here is with dogmatic thinking, not with whether or not compassion is virtuous. As I have said before, I am not the one mowing lawns or dismembering cows.

You both have your own idea of what is compassionate and what true "loving" activity entails. This is true for everyone. Each whom is seeking to be compassionate is only able to do so within the capacity that they are able to grasp it with their own understanding. I grasp it in my own way and I work to use it, practically and actively each and every day and your attempt to argue that I do not is little more than an attempt to put your mind within my own.

I assure you, I am in no way blind to the immense amount of suffering on this planet and my heart is not deaf to its cries.

All activity in which co-Creation is the playing of God. You seem to phrase/frame this idea negatively when all I am doing is pointing out that each is the Creator and so each activity is the Creator at work.

It is true we have to choose, but why should you expect that every single path of service to others will look like your own?

[Jade]

Some people want to play god by eating the flesh of animals. Some people want to play god by setting those animals free. We are all the same God but there is a difference in action if only because we're in 3D, making a myriad of Choices every day. I feel strongly that earth is moving into a 4D positive environment and I'm pretty sure consuming the flesh of animals isn't part of 4D positive. I hope everyone takes as much time as they please making their own choices but I'm happy to have a knowledge/skillset to be able to help others cross over when they are ready. More and more, people are changing their roles in our collective service involving the enslavement of bovine and poultry. I'm happy about that!

As far as pets go, as it stands now, most pets are fed the scraps of food that aren't fit to feed to humans (like ground bones), or (sadly) it's theorized that some pet food may contain the meat of other dogs and cats, as many foods have tested positive for the drugs that we use to euthanize our pets. Luckily there are alternatives to ambiguously labeled pet foods.

[Monica]

I feel strongly that earth is moving into a 4D positive environment and I'm pretty sure consuming the flesh of animals isn't part of 4D positive.

Precisely. You nailed it!

[Unbound]

Well, we have four cats and we love them to death and my girlfriend is incredibly meticulous about what we feed them and how we take care of them. Maybe I am not the perfect saint, but I really do love as best as I am able to my understanding. As I said, for myself, I work with what feels natural to me and I'm not sure how much more I can do than that.

[Billy]

Do you guys think that all pet food, even the so called superior brands, are ultimately not very healthy for your pet? What are the other options if not for pet food, make it yourself?

[Jade]

Tanner, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that we are all doing the best we can with our understanding and what feels good. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to sit on my soapbox and plant a few seeds for people to tend to later, whenever the shoots appear.

Folk-love, there is plenty of research out there about pet foods, and more and more pet foods are swinging to being less garbage food and more real food. Basically, if you're buying cheap food, like Kibbles and Bits or Iams or Ol' Roy, you're probably buying junk. You get what you pay for, as with anything. Learning to read the labels can be a big help. Chicken "meal" or bone meal are big no nos, you want it to just say "Chicken" (as in real chicken meat) or "Beef" or whatever. No weird byproducts, no artificial colors or flavoring, just meat and veggies and maybe some vitamin supplements.

Of course the absolute best is to make your own pet food, if it's at all reasonable. We were cooking every meal (vegan!) for our dog for a long time, but he was sick a few months ago and the only thing the vet could find wrong with him was slight anemia. She wanted to put him on prednisone (no!). So we went home and started mixing up his food a bit more, giving him fresh liver. Now we just make sure to mix it up a lot, he gets a lot of fresh food and we also sometimes feed him Fresh Pet brand (comes refrigerated and has a very short shelf life). Halo is a good pet food brand kibble-wise.

[Monica]

Do you guys think that all pet food, even the so called superior brands, are ultimately not very healthy for your pet? What are the other options if not for pet food, make it yourself?

The 'superior' brands are definitely better than the mainstream brands, no doubt about it.

The healthiest option is to make it yourself, but for those of us with lots of furry babies that isn't always practical. I have 3 dogs and 5 cats. The dogs eat a LOT and I make it myself some of the time, but I confess that I can't always do that due to being very busy. The kibble is convenient. Also, my cats won't ever eat the homemade food. I've tried many times and they sniff at it then walk away. Dogs will eat almost anything but cats? no, they are finicky!

Maybe they'd eat homemade cat food if it had meat in it, but that's not something I'm willing to do. When I found that vegan kitty kibble yesterday, I was thrilled! I had been looking for that for awhile. I'm going to try that. It's expensive but I'm excited to have found it. I will start with mixing a little in and gradually increasing.

The standard commercial brands are nasty. They have all sorts of horrid ingredients like sawdust, diseased and spoiled meat that didn't meet the standards for human consumption, artificial flavorings and colorings, preservatives, etc. and may even contain dog and cat meat from euthanized animals! Ever wonder why cat and dog poop smells so nasty and dogs smell so bad? That's why! Dogs and cats are getting cancer now, just like humans, and it's because of the nasty diet (plus all the vaccines probably too).

There are now many brands offering higher quality ingredients: no artificial stuff added, and at least the meat is the same as for humans. Big chains like Petsmart and online stores like petflow.com now carry lots of brands to choose from. Some even have a vegetarian option for dogs!

The dog food industry tells the public to not feed table scraps. Well, since most people eat junk, their table scraps are nutritionally deficient, to be sure, but it's a toss-up which is worse: the Standard American Diet (SAD) or the nasty pet food.

If, however, people eat healthier foods, then table scraps would be far superior to any pet food. That's what dogs historically ate anyway.

It's those finicky cats that are the problem!

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I've had my dogs and cats on the 'superior' brands for years, plus I add nutritional yeast (to keep them flea-free). My dogs have been getting mostly vegan kibble + homemade egg-based food, but aren't 100% transitioned yet. I'm working on that. Also, they all drink Kangen Water. My dogs don't stink. They actually smell sweet! I'm not kidding! Even when they get caught in the rain, they still smell nice. Even their breath doesn't stink.

[Unbound]

We don't give our cats anything but the most organic, non-preserved stuff we can find with as little nitrates and such as possible, but also that has real ingredients (we prefer to give them wet foods with actual pieces of meat and the like rather than the pattes).

[Jade]

Yes, my doggie smells very nice too. I also used to stink more when I ate a traditional diet but now I don't even use deodorant (sometimes just a little baking soda). I'm very passionate about my journey detoxing my body so I'm sorry if I get a little abrasive. It is a GIANT commitment as in once you start removing things that are chemically incompatible with the body complex (which each person has to figure out on their own) the list just gets longer and longer. I've really tried to embrace a slow, natural process, which has been helpful to me. Every week or two though something new pops up that my body is like "Nope, not anymore, friend." I don't mind. Eating and shopping is actually simpler when you're just eating veggies and grains. I mourn a bit every step of the way but deep down and truly I don't miss the prepackaged powder concoctions that I used to consider a meal.